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Old 12-12-2004, 08:16 PM   #78 (permalink)
1010011010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Since you bring it up, please tell us all how to test for ID, as opposed to assuming it.
Well, first you'd need to identify groups of designed objects.
One group would be objects designed for a common task.
Another group would be objects designed by a common designer.
From that you may develop of rigorous characterization of what gives an object the appearance of being designed.
Then you would look for those characteristics in living things.

[Steps out of character]
No one has done this, of course, because in all probability no rigorous characterization of design would arise. On the off chance that one could be formulated, though, I'd wager it's probable that no evidence of design would be detected in living things.

As it stands, ID is not a science and is not falsifiable. This is not because ID is inherently unscientific, but merely because no one has been bothered to do the legwork to establish a standard of evidence. This dismissive attitude of ID as the creationists' newest rhetoric is dangerous.[/character]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Apparently.
Pithy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Seriously, are you intentionally missing the point? Watches do not give birth to more watches, therefore there could be no naturalistic way for descent with modification. There are no mutations that could be naturally selected.
Watchmakers do give birth to more watches, though. And watchbuyers can select those watches that most fit their needs and desires. If a watchmaker comes up with a new design that increases the usefulness or desireability of a timepiece, those watches will sell, and so the representation of that design of watch will increase in the population.

Thus we see in the design of watches (and other designed objects) an accumulation of new and interesting features over times... because the design process under market pressure is itself somewhat evolutionary in nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Therefore it's not a good analogy, because watches have to be designed and you can't just assume that nature does because that's the question that is attempting to be answered.
We don't, we're pointing out that the patterns we see in nature (genetic similarities, et al.) are similar to those patterns we may observe in certain lineages of designed objects. Thus is is reasonable to assume that these patterns known to arrise in designed objects, when found in living things, would also indicate that living things are designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Unfortunately for the IDers evolution *does* explain the changes and does show us descent with modification.
Or so you claim, anyway. I've yet to see how you distinguish between an evolutionary design process and natural selection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
There is no legitimate reason to invoke ID anymore, that reason ended with Darwin, who destroyed Paley's watchmaker argument.
Paley's was essentially an argument from ignorance. What Paley failed to realize is, of course, that watches, though designed and created, do evolve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
I actually had to reread what you said. You are right, and I misread you initially.
It seems you perfer the magical creation of individual animals, instead of descent with modification and birth. After all, watches aren't born, nor is new technology. In fact, new technology doesn't come from old technology, as in you don't add the digital components to your hourglass, you update a design and create from totally new materials.
Certainly there is the occassional cognitive leap in technology. But surely you're not claiming that the genetic and/or fossil record is complete and without shortcomings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
So in order to be a good analogy, you have to show this or, as I said from the beginning, the fact that watches can't have kids totally destroys your appealing to watches and designers.
Of course, if watches could have baby watches, and had been having baby watches for a thousand million years, you'd merely assert that the watches evolved... despite the fact that they were designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were using the ID argument peddled by Behe, Dempski and Co. I wasn't aware that you had your own.
Since you do, please tell me the mechanism for change and all your current research into the subject.
I don't, really. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate to make things interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Yeah, it can be viewed in any number of ways, my question is, is there any logical/rational reason for viewing it this way.
Not yet. There potentially could be, if, as noted above, someone did the legwork to establish a standard of evidence for design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Also, if this were actually true, then why do we have retroviral inserts that we share with primates? Why do we have pseudogenes?
Why do we have computer viruses? Why do we have unnecessary includes? Why do we have buffer overruns?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
How does it show that we came from a common designer? According to your argument it would logically follow that there would be only one type of automotive manufacturer.
Unless you're suddenly asserting that automobiles evolve (and not in the design process method outlined above) I think the observable fact that there are multiple car makers demonstrates you don't quite follow the logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
But alas, we have honda, ford, etc, etc.
And in all probability you would be able to identify an unbadged Honda, Ford, etc. etc. from model year to model year... Furthermore, you'd probably be able to identify that the same person that desined the VW Passat designed the new Ford 500... or the same person that designed the 94-98 Honda Accord line also worked on cars for Volvo and BMW. But still be able to identify these cars as Hondas, VWs, Volvos, or Fords... based on other design clues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Also, we have no reason to assume these objects were designed in the first place and many reasons to assume otherwise (including witnessing speciation and the twin nested heirarches).
Unless those observations serve a design hypothesis equally as well or better. As it stands, we have no way of knowing if they do or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
What's ID got? God of the gaps and arguments from ignorance? That's not science.
True. ID is not currently science. It is not inherently unscientific, though... which is pretty much the core message I'm trying to get across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Please present "your" ID argument.
I believe it's been sketched out in this post, above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
(Fanboyish praise of evolution? It's just a respect for modern science. I wonder what other modern science you reject...)
I'm going to lapse completely out of character for a moment.
I'm not very impressed with the way you've been handling this. You remind me of a scholastic. You have respect for modern science, but knowledge is preferrable to respect. You jump to repeat what you've read from respected sources at the expense of actually paying attention to the argument being made by your opponent. Behe, Dembski, and the whole irreducible complexity and complex specific information snowjob are bankrupt, sure... but it doesn't make you (or me, when I'm not clowning at being Evil) look good to demolish those guys when you are the one that brings them up in the conversation. It looks like misdirection and grandstanding. Those are the tactics of the Creationists. Don't Do It. Stick to the conversation at hand, and constrain yourself to what's actually being said by your opponent. If it looks liek they're dancing the partyline or reciting some but of boilerplate, ask first, then tear them apart. Otherwise they can just ask you what the fuck you're talking about and you've spent your rhetoric on a straw man.
I now return you to your regulaly scheduled program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
And there you go, case closed, you have no mechanism. A weak appeal to genetic engineering, which doesn't actually constitute a mechanism.
How long did it take us to go from the beginning of the industrial revolution to our current clumsy attempts at genetic engineering? Imagine where a culture even of our skill wold be after 5 billion years. Why is genetic engineering a disallowed design process for a sufficiently advanced species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Without a mechanism we can substitute the word 'magic' for design. I hope it is obvious to you that ID is just an empty appeal to ignorance and is not actual science.
Is not, yes. Cannot be, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Unless of course you don't think that science should be in the business of...you know, actually explaining things. I suppose it's much easier to point and say "God did it" or "aliens did it" or "an intelligent designer did it" then put in the sufficient elbow grease to actually figure out the phenomenon.
Well, I'm certainly not going to be the one to put in the elbow grease to figure out if intelligent design has any merit, neither are you, in all probability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Additionally by your lack of a mechanism (and don't feel bad, no IDers have any) you implicitedly admit that evolution is more parsimonious then ID. Additionally the facade of ID being actual science is exposed as ID doesn't explain anything, it relies completely and utterly on an argument from ignorance-we don't (currently) know how this system was designed and therefore 'poof' it's magic brought to us via the common designer.
Careful where you stand. How do we know humans and mushrooms and coelacanths and blue spruces have a common ancestor? "'poof' It's evolution!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fibrosa
Yeah, keep believing that when the majority of IDers are Christians (or Raelians).
So the Fundies are right in claiming there's some sort of significance in many scientists being Atheists? They're just trying to promote their godless agenda?
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