wow....one at time here, but it's great to see such an engaging debate. part of the problem is that i was writing in specific response to Willy Pete, and not thinking about the thread title. i'll link some things back now.
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Originally Posted by wilbjammin
Now explain this rationally, without very abstract metaphors. How can you explain the existence of God without an <i>a priori</i> belief in God and/or an <i>a priori</i> belief that the Bible is <b>literal</b> fact?... Though poetic and highly asthetic, where's the substance behind the language? How can we have access to this world you're discussing without those fundamental assumptions that you're making?
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Take it as a literary document, for a while. then decide if it's something more. honestly, that's the only way i know how to do it. i always had a good command of bibilcal themes and stories. over time, i began to see news ways of inhabiting these spaces, and my conversion occured. use it to look at the world, and as yourself these questions:
this is taken from another thread and adapted:
Does this set of metaphors and ideas increase your understanding of life and relationship?
Does this set of metaphors and ideas retain a concern for intellectual egagement?
Does this set of metaphors and ideas have a deep ethical grounding?
Does this set of metaphors and ideas allow for reflection, and insist on self-critical examination?
Does this set of metaphors and ideas respond to life?
It's not a proof. but that is how i made my journey. i don't know if that would be useful for you, or anyone else. but i'd be more than happy to try to share anything i learned on the way.
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You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible is true, nor that anything in the Bible is true. That is circular reasoning, and fundamentally flawwed logic. As I understand it, the purpose of this thread is to logically discuss the existence of God. I read this as an emotive response that is lacking in reason outside of the scope of using the Bible as a fundamental book of truth because you say that the Bible is a fundamental book of truth.
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i think i'd made it clear that logical argumentation won't go more than halfway. logic won't prove God is an impossibility. beyond that? not much. it's equally unhelpful to non-theistic philosophies, too. logic is necessary with in a beleif, self consistancy, etc... but getting in from the outside isn't a logic thing. so if this is all threadjack, i apologize. my intention was to point to the non-logical path that could get there.
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Originally Posted by livina regina
I'd say that the empty tomb just shows that somebody stole the body.
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Following JD Crossen, as earlier noted in my arguements, it's unlikely Jesus' body every got to a tomb to be stolen. Standard operating proceedure was to leave the body to the scavenging birds and dogs. Read Mark again, carefully...and try not to assume the other Gospels. Ressurection has almost nothing to do with the corpse.
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You assume that Christianity is correct and you argue from that. Stop assuming that and argue up to it. For me it is a huge leap of fath to say that whatever created us was a god so I'm not likely to make the jump to Christianity any time soon. Can you make a logical argument for me to make that jump?
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Such an arguement does not exist. i asked for one for many years. i should find some of my old postings at another board...it might be an interesting contrast. As i talked about above, the only way *I* know in to Christian faith is to live in the symbols and ideas for a while, and see if they resonate with something with in you.