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Willravel · 12-06-2004, 10:11 AM

KMA-628- Hot dogs aren't going to further this very serious conversation.

iamnormal- DU isn't just about some random danger. It is about poisoning people. The fact that this is so dangerous is that it's not recognized. We all know how bullets work to puncture things. We all know how bombs explode. We know the risks we take in situations where these are being used. In the case of DU, however, there is not general knowledge. Soldiers don't know that they are being poisoned. There is a difference.

Dragonlich- DU is a poison used in war. That is illegal. It is very simple.

MrSelfDestruct- Excelent articles. That does help to put legal evidence on the side against DU in this conversation.

Dragonlich #2- This is not bad logic. This is not bad science. The side you oppose has cited numerous credible sources. You can't just ignore them. Well, I suppose you can, but it really hurts your argument. BTW, your country refuses to use DU munitions.

Dragonlich #3- I have to aree with superbeltr on this one.

Dragonlich #4- There are a substantial amount of GIs pissing DU. Many of the GIs from the Gulf War are becoming or have become very sick. Inexplicabally, of course.

Ustwo- The bottom line about this is that DU is harmful. I guess I'm going to have to explain this completly. I fugured this was common knowledge, but it seems it's better to be safe than sorry about information. The following is written by Dr. Glen Lawrence (Phd) from the Deparntment of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Long Island University, Brooklyn, NY. What he writes in his paper is general scientific fact.

WHAT ARE URANIUM OXIDES AND ARE THEY DANGEROUS?
There are three major uranium oxides produced by burning, these are U03, U3O8, and UO2, known as uranium trioxide, triuranium octoxide and uranium dioxide, with the latter two predominating. Although uranium is one of the densist metals known, the oxides in the smoke and dust are not so dense and remain suspended in the air for a long time. In fact, particles of DU oxides were detected more than ten miles from a National Lead DU munitions plant in Colonie, NY years ago, causing the State of New York to shut down the plant for excessive release of radioactive materials into the environment. Uranium, in any form, is considered to be a chemical poison as well as a radiation hazard ir taken internally, although moderate in comparison to other chemial poisons and radiation hazards.

These oxides dissolve in water (and body fluids) at very different rates. UO3 dissolves relatively quickly (hours to days), wheras U3O8 dissolves more slowly (weeks to months) and UO2 dissolved very slowly (months or years). The rate at wich they desolve depends very much on the size of the particles and the properties of the solvent. Very small particles of UO2 (<0.01 micron) seem to dissolve relatively fast and are absorbed from lung as quickly as soluable uranium compounds. Particles of either UO2 or U308 with average diameter of 0.5 microns cause much greater lung damage in animals than particals with average diameter of 2.3 microns or larger. Larger particles tend to get removed from the lungs in phlegm. There was much greater retention of the uranium in the lungs with the smaller particles, as well as greater kidney damage, indicating more absorption of the uranium into the blood. There have been numerous studies of the effects of inhaled uranium oxide particles on lab animals with their toxicity ranging from negligible to severe. The toxisity depends on many factors, including not only size of the particles, but how these particles were prepared, how they were administered (dry or in liquid) and many other factors.

The effect that DU shells have on their targets lures the curious to see what destruction it can do. Just walking or rummaging around a DU destroyed vehicle long after the dust has steeled can resuspend the fine particles of uranium oxide, which may be inhaled or cling to skin and clothing. Inhaling a mixture of the uranium oxides with a wide range of particle sizes in the smoke and dust coming from burning DU penetrators or resuspended dust works like a time release capsule, with the uranium oxides dissolving at different rates and entering the bloodstream over a prolonged time.

HOW TOXIC IS URANIUM?
There is cvontinuing debate about how toxic uranium really is. Uranium is not absorbed from the digestive tract very well. Less than 2 percent of uranium oxides taken in by the mouth get absorbed and enter the blood, with the bulk of it passing through the feces. Uranium also doesn't exert it's toxic effects immediately like cyanide or strychnine, but instead can take several days, so it may not be noticed for more than a day that severe poisioning has occoured. An acute nonlethal dose of uranium causes kidney damage within two weeks, with is somewhat reversable, with restoration of most kidney function after several months.

Several studies have been done to determine whether high levels of uranium in drinking water have any ill health effects. People drinking well water with high levels of uranium generally don't show any chronic illness, but urinalysis indicates that higher levels of uranium in drinking water results in increased indicators for kidney damage. The correlation seems to be linear and indicates that any increase in uranium exposure would result in an increase in the degree of kidney damage, even if it is not sufficient to cause acute toxic efects. It has also been found that exposure to moderate levels of uranium for some time makes the kidney more resistant to a subseuent toxic dose. Perhaps the kidney problems that appear to occur when people are exposed to high levels of uranium for the first time, will gradually return to normal once they are removed from the cource of contamination, although it is not possibble to say whether recovery would be 100 percent.

WHAT IS THE MOST LIKELY WAS TO GET TOXIC EXPOSURE TO URANIUM?
The inhalation of DU dust is the most likely route for uranium to enter the body and do serious damage, with the smallest, invisible DU dust particles doing the greatest damage. Consequently, you may not realize that you are even getting inhalation exposure. As these dust particles slowly dissolve in the lungs and the uranium is absorbed into the blood, it gets distributed to all parts of the body. Most health professionals looking for uranium poisoning will focus on the kidney because that organ is the most vulnerable and kidneyy malfunction can easily be diagnosed by analyzing urine for specific clinical parameters, such as alkaline phosphate or beta-microglobulin. However, when constant low doses of uranium are being absorbed, as tehy would be from DU dust particles in the lungs, it gets distributed to bone, brain, liver, lymph, spleen, testes and other organs. Once deposited in these tissues, there are several things that can happen.

WHAT HEALTH EFFECTS RESULT FROM EXPOSURE TO URANIUM OXIDES?
Uraniuym dust may do permanent damage to the lungs resulting in chronic respiratory problems. Uranium exposure also afffects neurological function. Rats exposed to uranium had impared nereve cell function and 1991 Gulf War veterans who were excreting high levels of uranium in their urine showed some impairment in cognitive function. Uranium exposure can have a wide range of health effects that may also include skin rashes, headaches, blurred vision, sensitivity to light and sound, localized numbness, and urinary symptoms, such as kidney stones, increased urine volume and blood in the urine.

Researchers at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute (AFRRI) in Bathesda, MD and others have found that uranium causes mutations in DNA and uranium exposure can result in increased chromosomal aberrations. It is a widely accepted principle in molecular biology that agents that cause mutations or damage DNA can cause cancer. Mutations in the DNA of germ cells (in the testes and ovaries) may lead to birth defects or miscarrige. It is plausable that uranium exposure in a man could lead to increased risk of birth defects in his children concieved after his exposure.

DOES EXPOSURE TO URANIUM CAUSE PEOPLE TO GET CANER?
Studies at the AFRRI showed that human cells grown in culture diches could be transformed into cancerous cells when exposed to uranium. Researchers in Albuquerque, NM implanted DU metal into the muscle of rats (a model for shrapnel wounds), causing 18% to develope sarcomas (cancerous tumors around the implant site). Epidemiologic studies found modest increases in certian types of cancers in uranium workers, including cancers of the lungs, lymph nodes, kidney, and brain.

The uranium procession and milling industries had stringent safeguards built in when they were developing because uranium was known to be toxic. Wrokers were closely monitored with radiation badges and frequent urin tests, and if exposed to too much radiation, were removed from the high exposure risk areasuntil their exposure level dropped below the acceptable limits for a given time period. Consequently, the increased risk of cancers in this indursty is not large, but is significant. The latency period, or time bewteen exposure to a carcinogen and development of cancer can be many years (often 5 to 20 or more years for heavy metal carcinogens).

CONCLUSIONS
It is best to avoid exposure to DU dust by staying away from vehicles or buildings destroyed by DU. If you are in ana area where there may be DU dust, avoid breathing the dust. Breathing through several layers of clean (uncontaminated) cotton cloth may help, if a protective mask is not available. Clean any clothing that may have been contaminated by washing with baking soda.

End report.

That is the general concensus of scientists. That is scientific reality.

12-06-2004, 10:11 AM	#67 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	KMA-628- Hot dogs aren't going to further this very serious conversation. iamnormal- DU isn't just about some random danger. It is about poisoning people. The fact that this is so dangerous is that it's not recognized. We all know how bullets work to puncture things. We all know how bombs explode. We know the risks we take in situations where these are being used. In the case of DU, however, there is not general knowledge. Soldiers don't know that they are being poisoned. There is a difference. Dragonlich- DU is a poison used in war. That is illegal. It is very simple. MrSelfDestruct- Excelent articles. That does help to put legal evidence on the side against DU in this conversation. Dragonlich #2- This is not bad logic. This is not bad science. The side you oppose has cited numerous credible sources. You can't just ignore them. Well, I suppose you can, but it really hurts your argument. BTW, your country refuses to use DU munitions. Dragonlich #3- I have to aree with superbeltr on this one. Dragonlich #4- There are a substantial amount of GIs pissing DU. Many of the GIs from the Gulf War are becoming or have become very sick. Inexplicabally, of course. Ustwo- The bottom line about this is that DU is harmful. I guess I'm going to have to explain this completly. I fugured this was common knowledge, but it seems it's better to be safe than sorry about information. The following is written by Dr. Glen Lawrence (Phd) from the Deparntment of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Long Island University, Brooklyn, NY. What he writes in his paper is general scientific fact. WHAT ARE URANIUM OXIDES AND ARE THEY DANGEROUS? There are three major uranium oxides produced by burning, these are U03, U3O8, and UO2, known as uranium trioxide, triuranium octoxide and uranium dioxide, with the latter two predominating. Although uranium is one of the densist metals known, the oxides in the smoke and dust are not so dense and remain suspended in the air for a long time. In fact, particles of DU oxides were detected more than ten miles from a National Lead DU munitions plant in Colonie, NY years ago, causing the State of New York to shut down the plant for excessive release of radioactive materials into the environment. Uranium, in any form, is considered to be a chemical poison as well as a radiation hazard ir taken internally, although moderate in comparison to other chemial poisons and radiation hazards. These oxides dissolve in water (and body fluids) at very different rates. UO3 dissolves relatively quickly (hours to days), wheras U3O8 dissolves more slowly (weeks to months) and UO2 dissolved very slowly (months or years). The rate at wich they desolve depends very much on the size of the particles and the properties of the solvent. Very small particles of UO2 (<0.01 micron) seem to dissolve relatively fast and are absorbed from lung as quickly as soluable uranium compounds. Particles of either UO2 or U308 with average diameter of 0.5 microns cause much greater lung damage in animals than particals with average diameter of 2.3 microns or larger. Larger particles tend to get removed from the lungs in phlegm. There was much greater retention of the uranium in the lungs with the smaller particles, as well as greater kidney damage, indicating more absorption of the uranium into the blood. There have been numerous studies of the effects of inhaled uranium oxide particles on lab animals with their toxicity ranging from negligible to severe. The toxisity depends on many factors, including not only size of the particles, but how these particles were prepared, how they were administered (dry or in liquid) and many other factors. The effect that DU shells have on their targets lures the curious to see what destruction it can do. Just walking or rummaging around a DU destroyed vehicle long after the dust has steeled can resuspend the fine particles of uranium oxide, which may be inhaled or cling to skin and clothing. Inhaling a mixture of the uranium oxides with a wide range of particle sizes in the smoke and dust coming from burning DU penetrators or resuspended dust works like a time release capsule, with the uranium oxides dissolving at different rates and entering the bloodstream over a prolonged time. HOW TOXIC IS URANIUM? There is cvontinuing debate about how toxic uranium really is. Uranium is not absorbed from the digestive tract very well. Less than 2 percent of uranium oxides taken in by the mouth get absorbed and enter the blood, with the bulk of it passing through the feces. Uranium also doesn't exert it's toxic effects immediately like cyanide or strychnine, but instead can take several days, so it may not be noticed for more than a day that severe poisioning has occoured. An acute nonlethal dose of uranium causes kidney damage within two weeks, with is somewhat reversable, with restoration of most kidney function after several months. Several studies have been done to determine whether high levels of uranium in drinking water have any ill health effects. People drinking well water with high levels of uranium generally don't show any chronic illness, but urinalysis indicates that higher levels of uranium in drinking water results in increased indicators for kidney damage. The correlation seems to be linear and indicates that any increase in uranium exposure would result in an increase in the degree of kidney damage, even if it is not sufficient to cause acute toxic efects. It has also been found that exposure to moderate levels of uranium for some time makes the kidney more resistant to a subseuent toxic dose. Perhaps the kidney problems that appear to occur when people are exposed to high levels of uranium for the first time, will gradually return to normal once they are removed from the cource of contamination, although it is not possibble to say whether recovery would be 100 percent. WHAT IS THE MOST LIKELY WAS TO GET TOXIC EXPOSURE TO URANIUM? The inhalation of DU dust is the most likely route for uranium to enter the body and do serious damage, with the smallest, invisible DU dust particles doing the greatest damage. Consequently, you may not realize that you are even getting inhalation exposure. As these dust particles slowly dissolve in the lungs and the uranium is absorbed into the blood, it gets distributed to all parts of the body. Most health professionals looking for uranium poisoning will focus on the kidney because that organ is the most vulnerable and kidneyy malfunction can easily be diagnosed by analyzing urine for specific clinical parameters, such as alkaline phosphate or beta-microglobulin. However, when constant low doses of uranium are being absorbed, as tehy would be from DU dust particles in the lungs, it gets distributed to bone, brain, liver, lymph, spleen, testes and other organs. Once deposited in these tissues, there are several things that can happen. WHAT HEALTH EFFECTS RESULT FROM EXPOSURE TO URANIUM OXIDES? Uraniuym dust may do permanent damage to the lungs resulting in chronic respiratory problems. Uranium exposure also afffects neurological function. Rats exposed to uranium had impared nereve cell function and 1991 Gulf War veterans who were excreting high levels of uranium in their urine showed some impairment in cognitive function. Uranium exposure can have a wide range of health effects that may also include skin rashes, headaches, blurred vision, sensitivity to light and sound, localized numbness, and urinary symptoms, such as kidney stones, increased urine volume and blood in the urine. Researchers at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute (AFRRI) in Bathesda, MD and others have found that uranium causes mutations in DNA and uranium exposure can result in increased chromosomal aberrations. It is a widely accepted principle in molecular biology that agents that cause mutations or damage DNA can cause cancer. Mutations in the DNA of germ cells (in the testes and ovaries) may lead to birth defects or miscarrige. It is plausable that uranium exposure in a man could lead to increased risk of birth defects in his children concieved after his exposure. DOES EXPOSURE TO URANIUM CAUSE PEOPLE TO GET CANER? Studies at the AFRRI showed that human cells grown in culture diches could be transformed into cancerous cells when exposed to uranium. Researchers in Albuquerque, NM implanted DU metal into the muscle of rats (a model for shrapnel wounds), causing 18% to develope sarcomas (cancerous tumors around the implant site). Epidemiologic studies found modest increases in certian types of cancers in uranium workers, including cancers of the lungs, lymph nodes, kidney, and brain. The uranium procession and milling industries had stringent safeguards built in when they were developing because uranium was known to be toxic. Wrokers were closely monitored with radiation badges and frequent urin tests, and if exposed to too much radiation, were removed from the high exposure risk areasuntil their exposure level dropped below the acceptable limits for a given time period. Consequently, the increased risk of cancers in this indursty is not large, but is significant. The latency period, or time bewteen exposure to a carcinogen and development of cancer can be many years (often 5 to 20 or more years for heavy metal carcinogens). CONCLUSIONS It is best to avoid exposure to DU dust by staying away from vehicles or buildings destroyed by DU. If you are in ana area where there may be DU dust, avoid breathing the dust. Breathing through several layers of clean (uncontaminated) cotton cloth may help, if a protective mask is not available. Clean any clothing that may have been contaminated by washing with baking soda. End report. That is the general concensus of scientists. That is scientific reality.