Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post

ravenradiodj · 10-19-2004, 08:35 PM

Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself to appease Himself?

OK, my two cents as a pagan minister and armchair religious historian, I could ramble on all night about this, but my spiritual brother Curtis has phrased it much more eloquently than I ever could, so I'll share with you his words:

"In my world view, a human being is an attempt by the Universe to become conscious of Itself. In a way, we are exploratory robots for Consciousness. Humans are both bright (in intelligence and in interior Light) and brutal (you have to have some animal conciousness to function and survive here). I love the Jesus story because (in my world view) it is about God putting on a planet suit. I do not differ from my Christian siblings in believing that God has come into flesh, we only differ in that they think it only happened once, and I think it happens on a daily basis. "But God is perfect and you aren't" is the inevitable response. I am still waiting to hear what makes God "perfect" other than His ability to snap his fingers and kill me, create worlds, burn me for eternity, etc. Possessing power in itself doesn't make any being morally right or "perfect", otherwise any schoolyard bully (or Saddam) would be "right" and "perfect". In the Bible, God shows jealousy and anger, which are always based on fear. There is nothing particuarly perfect about that. I also notice that as mankind grew up emotionally, God got more and more subtle and adult. Can I really be blamed for thinking that God never changed, just humans changed their beliefs about what God was/is? I also find it tiresome, this idea "Jesus never sinned." If he couldn't sin, what was the big deal with Him incarnating here at all? We are presented with this asexual teetoltaler (well, according to the Baptists) who never had girlfriend problems or any other real human problems, yet He supposedly came down to experience what being a human was all about. How could he have? He didn't have many actual human experiences, other than being mortally vulnerable. I have said it before and will say it again: plenty of humans have died much more horrible deaths than Jeheshua, and they didn't have the comfort of knowing for sure that they were immortal. I am really not much impressed that God actually allowed himself to experience what amounted to some some mild temporary discomfort. This whole "I died for your sins so fall down and worship me" stuff is just a pure and simple Mafia style protection racket created by the Establishment so they could better control us. The human-created (in my world view) Bible God INVENTED the idea of "sin", then he INVENTED the idea of "saving us" from it. Just like the Mafia comes around and says "you gots a nice place here, be a shame if something happened to it, but give us tribute and we'll 'protect' you."
Obviously, all you're being protected from is THEM. Just like with God, all you're being "saved" from is his vicious human-style rage because he can't "abide sin".
Well, obviously He can abide it, with his jeaousies and rages and genocides and telling his followers "take the little children and smash their brains out against the wall." There's no bigger sinner than the Bible God. He's a murderer, a torturer, given to jealousy and anger. These are NOT sins? Or is He exempt simply because he is bigger and meaner than us? And Jesus DID sin, because he despaired, and there is no bigger sin than despair. But who wouldn't under similar circumstances? I love Jesus more when he sins than when he walks around in a perfectly clean white robe like some self righteous eunuch with his nose in the air, as some fundamentalists seem to see Him. Personally, I like the down and dirty Jesus, sweating blood in Gethsemene, asking "Please God, no, I can't handle this..." We have all been there, and sometimes we drink the Cup and sometimes we knock it aside. When it comes down to spiritual values, we all have to go with our hearts, heads, and guts, i.e., spirits, intellects, and intuition. Maybe the Lord has hardened my heart as He did with Pharoah, but my heart, head, and gut tell me that there is no personal God, that we have to do the Work ourselves, and that no one is going to save me, and that actually there is nothing to be saved from but ignorance and amnesia. If your heart, head, and gut tell you something different, well, i can't argue with you (although I appear to, lol), because you and I have nothing else to go with but our hearts, heads, and guts. I really have no choice but to see the world as I do. I realize that you do the same."

10-19-2004, 08:35 PM	#143 (permalink)
ravenradiodj Crazy	Why would God sacrifice Himself to Himself to appease Himself? OK, my two cents as a pagan minister and armchair religious historian, I could ramble on all night about this, but my spiritual brother Curtis has phrased it much more eloquently than I ever could, so I'll share with you his words: "In my world view, a human being is an attempt by the Universe to become conscious of Itself. In a way, we are exploratory robots for Consciousness. Humans are both bright (in intelligence and in interior Light) and brutal (you have to have some animal conciousness to function and survive here). I love the Jesus story because (in my world view) it is about God putting on a planet suit. I do not differ from my Christian siblings in believing that God has come into flesh, we only differ in that they think it only happened once, and I think it happens on a daily basis. "But God is perfect and you aren't" is the inevitable response. I am still waiting to hear what makes God "perfect" other than His ability to snap his fingers and kill me, create worlds, burn me for eternity, etc. Possessing power in itself doesn't make any being morally right or "perfect", otherwise any schoolyard bully (or Saddam) would be "right" and "perfect". In the Bible, God shows jealousy and anger, which are always based on fear. There is nothing particuarly perfect about that. I also notice that as mankind grew up emotionally, God got more and more subtle and adult. Can I really be blamed for thinking that God never changed, just humans changed their beliefs about what God was/is? I also find it tiresome, this idea "Jesus never sinned." If he couldn't sin, what was the big deal with Him incarnating here at all? We are presented with this asexual teetoltaler (well, according to the Baptists) who never had girlfriend problems or any other real human problems, yet He supposedly came down to experience what being a human was all about. How could he have? He didn't have many actual human experiences, other than being mortally vulnerable. I have said it before and will say it again: plenty of humans have died much more horrible deaths than Jeheshua, and they didn't have the comfort of knowing for sure that they were immortal. I am really not much impressed that God actually allowed himself to experience what amounted to some some mild temporary discomfort. This whole "I died for your sins so fall down and worship me" stuff is just a pure and simple Mafia style protection racket created by the Establishment so they could better control us. The human-created (in my world view) Bible God INVENTED the idea of "sin", then he INVENTED the idea of "saving us" from it. Just like the Mafia comes around and says "you gots a nice place here, be a shame if something happened to it, but give us tribute and we'll 'protect' you." Obviously, all you're being protected from is THEM. Just like with God, all you're being "saved" from is his vicious human-style rage because he can't "abide sin". Well, obviously He can abide it, with his jeaousies and rages and genocides and telling his followers "take the little children and smash their brains out against the wall." There's no bigger sinner than the Bible God. He's a murderer, a torturer, given to jealousy and anger. These are NOT sins? Or is He exempt simply because he is bigger and meaner than us? And Jesus DID sin, because he despaired, and there is no bigger sin than despair. But who wouldn't under similar circumstances? I love Jesus more when he sins than when he walks around in a perfectly clean white robe like some self righteous eunuch with his nose in the air, as some fundamentalists seem to see Him. Personally, I like the down and dirty Jesus, sweating blood in Gethsemene, asking "Please God, no, I can't handle this..." We have all been there, and sometimes we drink the Cup and sometimes we knock it aside. When it comes down to spiritual values, we all have to go with our hearts, heads, and guts, i.e., spirits, intellects, and intuition. Maybe the Lord has hardened my heart as He did with Pharoah, but my heart, head, and gut tell me that there is no personal God, that we have to do the Work ourselves, and that no one is going to save me, and that actually there is nothing to be saved from but ignorance and amnesia. If your heart, head, and gut tell you something different, well, i can't argue with you (although I appear to, lol), because you and I have nothing else to go with but our hearts, heads, and guts. I really have no choice but to see the world as I do. I realize that you do the same."