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Robaggio · 10-11-2004, 09:57 PM

"No, your keyboard is dead. It's never been alive, it never will be. The appeal to nothingness is a dodge."

You're right, my keyboard has never been alive. However, it also never died. Look up "dead" - all definitions of the word relate to something that has died or does not function like it once did. I'm not trying to 'dodge' things. In philosophy, the third state of being is common knowledge.

"Wrong on two counts. If a believer in God having a logical or philosophical discussion with someone that doesn't believe in a higher power, there is lacking a common frame of reference from which to begin."

Right again, a common frame is lacking here. It's fairly elementary in philosophy that you cannot have a logical discussion while citing religion as fact. You're bringing extra baggage along for the ride. God needs to be dropped at the doorstep if you're ever going to have a philosophical discussion. (That is of course, unless you're discussing his existence, which isn't the topic at hand.) If I were to adopt your frame of discussion, then I would be contributing to one of the cardinal fallacies of philosophy. To put it bluntly: There is no god- his existence cannot be proven and therefore the notion is illogical. Now, on the other hand, the belief in god is logical- but only so far as to say "I believe in god." It is a fact that someone believes in something. However, someone's belief is not fact.

"Second, bringing up the miracle that is life is on the topic of abortion. "

I don't understand this phrase. Could you rewrite it differently? Perhaps define what 'the miracle that is life' is? I am not being sarcastic. I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here.

"Accepting that takes a lot more blind faith than accepting there is a Creator that set up the system, but now you're getting afield."

The differences in pregnancies between all animals are a direct result of evolution. Some animals lay eggs and some have live birth. Some eggs are soft and others are hard. Some animals carry their young for a short period of time and some carry young for a very long time. The pregnancy is a result of the animal's environment. Mothers have evolved over time and have developed strategies to best make copies of themselves. What works for one animal in one environment might not work for another. For example, soft fish eggs would not do particularly well buried in the sand of the desert like the eggs of certain insects. These tactics and variences are not the result of the embryo. They are specificly tailored by the mothers and refined throughout history via evolution.

Here's a little scenario to help describe this better. Female humans have wide hips to facilitate holding the fetus during pregnancy. The only reason females have wide hips today is because at some point in history, females with thin hips were weeded out. Because females with thin hips could not make copies of themselves as effectively as those with wide hips, the 'thin hip' trait died off. This is how pregnancy became refined through evolution. Females that exherted particular traits passed on their genes and thus, pregnancy became a bit more tailored to facilitate holding the fetus. It is important to note that there is no point at which the fetus does anything to manipulate pregnancy in it's favor. Fetuses are a product of an organism attempting to make a copy of itself.

"Now you've discounted the role of the father. But the fetus is doing all it can to survive in the womb; crying isn't an option because it is unnecessary."

What does the father's role have anything to do with anything? Once sperm comes in contact with the woman's egg, the woman's body decides that she has enough genetic material to create a copy of herself. The fetus is a work in progress. It has no means for which to survive. It isn't manipulating the woman's body, the woman's body is manipulating it as it has evolved to do over time.

10-11-2004, 09:57 PM	#50 (permalink)
Robaggio Crazy	"No, your keyboard is dead. It's never been alive, it never will be. The appeal to nothingness is a dodge." You're right, my keyboard has never been alive. However, it also never died. Look up "dead" - all definitions of the word relate to something that has died or does not function like it once did. I'm not trying to 'dodge' things. In philosophy, the third state of being is common knowledge. "Wrong on two counts. If a believer in God having a logical or philosophical discussion with someone that doesn't believe in a higher power, there is lacking a common frame of reference from which to begin." Right again, a common frame is lacking here. It's fairly elementary in philosophy that you cannot have a logical discussion while citing religion as fact. You're bringing extra baggage along for the ride. God needs to be dropped at the doorstep if you're ever going to have a philosophical discussion. (That is of course, unless you're discussing his existence, which isn't the topic at hand.) If I were to adopt your frame of discussion, then I would be contributing to one of the cardinal fallacies of philosophy. To put it bluntly: There is no god- his existence cannot be proven and therefore the notion is illogical. Now, on the other hand, the belief in god is logical- but only so far as to say "I believe in god." It is a fact that someone believes in something. However, someone's belief is not fact. "Second, bringing up the miracle that is life is on the topic of abortion. " I don't understand this phrase. Could you rewrite it differently? Perhaps define what 'the miracle that is life' is? I am not being sarcastic. I honestly don't understand what you're getting at here. "Accepting that takes a lot more blind faith than accepting there is a Creator that set up the system, but now you're getting afield." The differences in pregnancies between all animals are a direct result of evolution. Some animals lay eggs and some have live birth. Some eggs are soft and others are hard. Some animals carry their young for a short period of time and some carry young for a very long time. The pregnancy is a result of the animal's environment. Mothers have evolved over time and have developed strategies to best make copies of themselves. What works for one animal in one environment might not work for another. For example, soft fish eggs would not do particularly well buried in the sand of the desert like the eggs of certain insects. These tactics and variences are not the result of the embryo. They are specificly tailored by the mothers and refined throughout history via evolution. Here's a little scenario to help describe this better. Female humans have wide hips to facilitate holding the fetus during pregnancy. The only reason females have wide hips today is because at some point in history, females with thin hips were weeded out. Because females with thin hips could not make copies of themselves as effectively as those with wide hips, the 'thin hip' trait died off. This is how pregnancy became refined through evolution. Females that exherted particular traits passed on their genes and thus, pregnancy became a bit more tailored to facilitate holding the fetus. It is important to note that there is no point at which the fetus does anything to manipulate pregnancy in it's favor. Fetuses are a product of an organism attempting to make a copy of itself. "Now you've discounted the role of the father. But the fetus is doing all it can to survive in the womb; crying isn't an option because it is unnecessary." What does the father's role have anything to do with anything? Once sperm comes in contact with the woman's egg, the woman's body decides that she has enough genetic material to create a copy of herself. The fetus is a work in progress. It has no means for which to survive. It isn't manipulating the woman's body, the woman's body is manipulating it as it has evolved to do over time.