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guy44 · 10-08-2004, 09:45 AM

bish - I never said all succesful people did anything wrong to achieve their success. Not by a long shot. Just that it is sometimes true. Please note what I actually wrote: "in fact, OFTEN the opposite - they lie, cheat, steal, are born rich, etc."

Ace - there is little value in super-low paying jobs. People have to work three jobs or more in order to hope to make ends meet. Living wage is well above minimum wage. Removing mimimum wage, however, would mean that all the unemployed people in this country would be fighting over jobs paying so little as to leave them in poverty. It isn't an easy question, and just raising the minimum wage isn't the answer. But lowering it would be just as, if not more disastrous.

And I agree that employees who can provide more value to their employees get higher wages - that much is obvious. But it isn't that easy to do. You need education and training in order to make yourself a more valuable commodity. That simply isn't easy if you are poor. Even if you can get technical training of some kind, and no college education, it is very difficult to get your family through college, considering the extreme costs, etc. That is the problem - how do we get more people to make themselves more valuable to employers?

As for people abusing welfare, besides the fact that the numbers of those people tend to be dramatically overstated - so what? Yes, it is annoying that maybe some people might abuse the system, or draw two unemployment checks, or whatever. But it is a moral question: as the wealthies country in the history of the world, how can we stand by while so many people live in poverty? A fifth of children, 2/5 of minority children, live in poverty. That is unacceptable. And the welfare state allows the U.S. to provide the basic necessities of life for the poor. If there are a couple of free-riders, so what? If we cut corporate welfare, unnecessary agricultural subsidies, and some major useless weapons programs, we could easily pay for all this.

10-08-2004, 09:45 AM	#13 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	bish - I never said all succesful people did anything wrong to achieve their success. Not by a long shot. Just that it is sometimes true. Please note what I actually wrote: "in fact, OFTEN the opposite - they lie, cheat, steal, are born rich, etc." Ace - there is little value in super-low paying jobs. People have to work three jobs or more in order to hope to make ends meet. Living wage is well above minimum wage. Removing mimimum wage, however, would mean that all the unemployed people in this country would be fighting over jobs paying so little as to leave them in poverty. It isn't an easy question, and just raising the minimum wage isn't the answer. But lowering it would be just as, if not more disastrous. And I agree that employees who can provide more value to their employees get higher wages - that much is obvious. But it isn't that easy to do. You need education and training in order to make yourself a more valuable commodity. That simply isn't easy if you are poor. Even if you can get technical training of some kind, and no college education, it is very difficult to get your family through college, considering the extreme costs, etc. That is the problem - how do we get more people to make themselves more valuable to employers? As for people abusing welfare, besides the fact that the numbers of those people tend to be dramatically overstated - so what? Yes, it is annoying that maybe some people might abuse the system, or draw two unemployment checks, or whatever. But it is a moral question: as the wealthies country in the history of the world, how can we stand by while so many people live in poverty? A fifth of children, 2/5 of minority children, live in poverty. That is unacceptable. And the welfare state allows the U.S. to provide the basic necessities of life for the poor. If there are a couple of free-riders, so what? If we cut corporate welfare, unnecessary agricultural subsidies, and some major useless weapons programs, we could easily pay for all this. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"