Autochron

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but why does perfection imply the need to create? That sounds kinda anthropomorphic to me.

Here again about justice: if we are incapable of fully comprehending divine nature, and thus the reason for God's particular standard of justice, how can we come out and say (even assume) that God is just in the first place? To do so would imply that He is just according to our standards (which are imperfect), according to His own standards (which are incomprehensible), or that He is beholden to a greater standard of justice that comes from above Him (which is impossible given the assumption that God is perfect). So how can we say for sure that God is just?

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Fair enough, but see below.

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I'm sorry. That was in poor taste, and I hereby retract it. It's just that when I argue on this subject, I get a little under the collar I do apologize, and will endeavour to do my best not to do it again.

But it is salient to the argument that God should not have to punish us if He's perfect unless He intentionally lowered Himself when He created us in order to create an imperfect thing, which is an imperfect thing to do if He's all-powerful.

Some brief comments on that post...

(The square circle)
OK. Did God completely create the Platonic world of forms, or were some restrictions regarding them forced on Him by some other agent? If so, what agent would that be?
I just don't understand how we can conclude that God can't do certain things just because we can't imagine them... but that's mostly a side point, as you stated.

(Omnibelevolence not entailing...)
Actually, that is exactly what omnibenevolence entails... that one is inherently without evil. Given omniscience as well as the qualities stated above, it is an evil act to create the first evil thing ever created (even eventually evil things). Why would God do that if He's omnibenevolent and all-powerful? He could just as easily not have done it.

(The Hitler example)
So why should God have to suffer the lesser evil for the greater good if He's all-powerful? The point that I'm getting to is that since we can imagine that it's certainly possible for neither dictator to come to power (or, for that matter, for reality to be aligned so that a shot is not needed to prevent diseases), it follows that He could imagine such as well. So why didn't He create that world instead?

("God does not exist")
That certainly is not the conclusion of the argument, as CSfilm tried to make clear at the beginning of the post. The conclusion of the argument is that one of (A), (B), (C), or (D) must be accepted. (A) "God does not exist" is but one of these four. One could just as easuly conclude (D) "Evil does not exist."

(On trusting God)
I don't believe that it is necessary for me to trust God, and I certainly don't believe it necessary (or prudent) to trust anyone who claims to represent Him. But that opens up a whole new set of arguments that have no place in this thread. Care to make another? If you don't, I might... we'll see.

That gets me, right there. How can we conclude that our obedience is any more "true" (in a cosmic sense) just because of this theoretical free will involved? Sure, it sounds prettier, but unless you can show me that truth is beauty, I'm not getting anything out of that one. It just seems like cognitive dissonance on our part.
Besides, I'm not convinced that we even have free will.

AFAIK His chances are pretty good, if we assume that He's all-powerful, and thus could quite easily convince me, who is mortal, fallible, and dependent on things like logic, etc.

Again, how can you or anyone say definitively that "it's the choice He wants"? Without resorting to circular logic?

BTW, you're right... it was Ezekiel. (And how do we know that what he saw was really God, and not a piece of bad cheese? Outside of being convinced through Scripture? This isn't a rhetorical question -- I'm honestly curious.)

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I don't think so at all. After all, I wasn't around at the time, and so didn't see it. And as for my thoughts on the Bible... well, another thread is already covering that. I'll post there eventually.

It's amazing (and to me incomprehensible) that some people can just have "faith" in what they're told, and if any nagging questions come up, just to believe they should "trust God"... it just seems like a total cop-out.

No, but if you accept that He's all-powerful, He could have prevented them, so it all works out to the same thing. (Why did He create rules that would hurt us? Certainly we can imagine rules that would hurt us less than these.)
And as to the concept that we've fallen... pfft. I think I've argued against that enough already.

Again, I'm sorry about offending people with my thoughts or ideas, but ultimately I will bar no holds in my search for the truth. I used to accept the Christian faith and to think the way you do when I was younger... but that's changed now, and I can't in good conscience go back yet with the questions I have.
In case you're curious, no, I can't think of a single event that changed my mind, but rather through a sequence of little things. I may argue some of them later, but for now... that's enough.
BTW, I may not post for a while. Please don't take that to mean that I've given up
Later.

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