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Originally Posted by archpaladin
I believe that the original set of assumptions that CSFilm presents is somewhat lacking. To complete the picture, I would add one more:
5. God is just
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Whoa, there. Justice implies a standard to which God decides to apply Himself. Unless you believe that there is a being greater than God, what compels Him to pick one standard over another? And why should He pick any standard at all, much less one that allows people like me to doubt Him and pay for it, when He doesn't even have the common decency to show Himself to me in such a manner that I
could truly believe His existence?
Also, given that you are trying to amend CSfilm's argument, I think it's fair that you allow this hypothetical God to be just as long as it doesn't interfere with His omnibenevolence, or else you're arguing a different point. BTW, feel free to argue it -- I'm not trying to stop you
I just think it should be explicitly stated.
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Originally Posted by archpaladin
2. Man is created/evolved (whatever have you) and at some point disobeys God. It is reasonable to assume that from God's frame of reference, mankind is now "evil". God, if He is to be just, must administer justice.
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I'm confused. If God is omnibenevolent and all-powerful, why did He give us the capability to disobey Him? Did He just want to see what would happen? That's shows callous disregard for us, and as such is not very omnibenevolent of Him.
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Originally Posted by archpaladin
3. The dilemma here is now complex. God knew this would happen from the beginning, and must be just, and must also be omnibenevolent. The solution is equally complex.....God allows natural & artificial "evil" as a temporary punishment for disobedience. God then allows mankind a means of restoration from the past disobedience (ie. Jesus & discipleship), with the natural & artifical "evil" as driving forces for mankind to consider issues of ethics, philosophy, spirituality, etc.
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Whoa. Now you're implying that the earthquake victims
deserved to be killed for disobeying God. There were babies in there, y'know? How could they have been saved in such limited time and brought to this "Jesus & discipleship" you mention?
Anyway, I'm sure I can think of much better ways for God to encourage mankind to consider issues of ethics, philosophy, spirituality, etc. than killing us off basically randomly.
Also, if He allows evil, and He is all-powerful, then He is at least partly evil, and thus not omnibenevolent. Justice doesn't enter into it.
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Originally Posted by archpaladin
4. God's foreknowledge of this whole situation shows that CSFilm's objection #3 is no longer entirely irrelevant. From scripture, we see that God intended to create a situation where He would have a loving relationship with people who were equally willing to love Him in return. Knowing that mankind would need a little prodding to understand why such a relationship is important, there had to be both an understanding of the good/evil duality, as well as the offer of redemption and the promise of justice. For God, this takes foreknowledge, omnibenevolence, and justice. Take any of those qualities out, and you are left with a picture of God that does not adequately explain the current state of affairs.
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If God created us so that we would love Him, He could certainly have tried harder as far as I'm concerned. Why do we need prodding to understand these things, if God created us
and wants us to know them? If He's all-powerful, it stands to reason that He could have given this knowledge to us another way than by allowing us to disobey Him. If He's omnibenevolent, He should have done this instead. Why would He plan to do something that was beneath Him?
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Originally Posted by archpaladin
Anyone who is particularly interested in getting a more theological perspective should read the first half of the book of Romans. Paul more or less works through this kind of argument.
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Well said. I'll go off and read this now -- actually, might as well read the whole Scripture while I'm at it. Please bear with me as my understanding of it is imperfect at this moment
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Hope I didn't bore you all to death....
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Not at all... if it needs to be said, it's worth saying.