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toxic515 · 09-08-2004, 04:00 PM

This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons. First of all, it seems to have rapidly moved to a discussion of sexuality, and away from the bible as a whole. I've done an obscene amount of research and study of the bible, the quoran, the torah, Zen and the art of motorcycle mechanics (grin) and numerous other religious texts. Something that is rather important to remember about the bible is how it came to be. You've got a book here that is edited from numerous historical texts (religious and otherwise) and put into a format that the Catholic church wanted. The text, in and of itself, is innocent, but the editing was done so long ago, that people tend to overlook the fact that it WAS done. The writings of the gnostics have been completely removed and overlooked or obscured when convenient to the Catholic goal (of that time)

We've got a book here that didn't even exist during the first few hundred years of Christianity.. Christians were nothing other than a dissident Jewish sect until Emperer Augustine moved Christianity into the mainstream in 313. At that point the "roman church" began to exert it's influence throughout the empire (save for a very brief respite during the reign of the neo-pagan ruler Julian (known as the apostate)) My point here is that it is vitally important to understand the politics of the church at the time to understand how accurate and how literally we may consider our christian bible.

It's difficult to convey the real impact of biblical politics in a brief online letter.. The entire Hebrew world was in upheaval during the time the christians were growing and forming their new religious system.. Jesus and his followrs lived at a time when the situation of the Jews was particularly turbulent and potentially explosive. The Jews had practiced traditional ways of life for centuries, and were increasingly confronted with an encroachment of pagan culture that baffled and repelled them. Forty years after the death of Jesus, Titus' forces marched on Jerusalem and annialated it almost completely. The temple, long central to the Jewish tradition was gone. Many Jews simply gave up and folowed pagan customs, whils what was left of the Pharissees struggled to salvage what was left of their ancient traditions. They hoped to reunite Jewish communities by providing a common code of law. This gave birth to the rabbinic movement. The rabbis themselves, "teachers of the law", came to replace the the hereditary caste of Jewish priests who had officiated in that temple for years.

So what? Well, the (unfortunately long-winded, and still not long enough) point here is that the entire world was in a religious, tribal, political, and sexual upheaval.. The Christian church of the time fell into a great deal of real power when Augustine ended the persecutions and adopted the religion. The church used the "holy writings" to hold and maintain power and influence in the financial, political, and spiritual world. That all continues into the current day. To a large extent the sexual attitudes, especially celibacy, were nothing more than a direct and obvious way to reject the Roman lifestyle. All of this still colors our ideas and mores even today.

As far as homosexuality is concerned, there's a great deal of dogmatic gymnastics performed out there for the sake of justifying the current church's view on the subject. Sodom and Gommorah are used as examples, but most theologins who choose that as a defense point, overlook the fact that the defiance in the face of God was the real issue, not the sexual bent. Most of the origin of current sexual mores comes from Genesis, and that's where all the ideological pretzel work really begins. Even by the time of Jesus, well over a millenium, Jews had taught that the purpose of marriage, and therefore of sexuality, as procreation. Nevermind that the Jewish communities had inherited their sexual customs from nomadic ancestors whos very survival depended upon reproduction... both among themselves and their herd animals. Prostitution, Homosexuality, abortion, infanticide, and other practices both legal and tolerated by most pagans of the time contradicted Jewish custom and law. Generations before Jesus, Jews, like many other peoples, invoked their creation myths to prove that tribal customs were not barbaric or peculiar, but part of the very structure of the universe itself.

Sorry to ramble on so long, but this bears a great deal of interest to me as an ordained minister, historian, and general pervert... (hahaha)

09-08-2004, 04:00 PM	#18 (permalink)
toxic515 Addict Location: Texas	This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons. First of all, it seems to have rapidly moved to a discussion of sexuality, and away from the bible as a whole. I've done an obscene amount of research and study of the bible, the quoran, the torah, Zen and the art of motorcycle mechanics (grin) and numerous other religious texts. Something that is rather important to remember about the bible is how it came to be. You've got a book here that is edited from numerous historical texts (religious and otherwise) and put into a format that the Catholic church wanted. The text, in and of itself, is innocent, but the editing was done so long ago, that people tend to overlook the fact that it WAS done. The writings of the gnostics have been completely removed and overlooked or obscured when convenient to the Catholic goal (of that time) We've got a book here that didn't even exist during the first few hundred years of Christianity.. Christians were nothing other than a dissident Jewish sect until Emperer Augustine moved Christianity into the mainstream in 313. At that point the "roman church" began to exert it's influence throughout the empire (save for a very brief respite during the reign of the neo-pagan ruler Julian (known as the apostate)) My point here is that it is vitally important to understand the politics of the church at the time to understand how accurate and how literally we may consider our christian bible. It's difficult to convey the real impact of biblical politics in a brief online letter.. The entire Hebrew world was in upheaval during the time the christians were growing and forming their new religious system.. Jesus and his followrs lived at a time when the situation of the Jews was particularly turbulent and potentially explosive. The Jews had practiced traditional ways of life for centuries, and were increasingly confronted with an encroachment of pagan culture that baffled and repelled them. Forty years after the death of Jesus, Titus' forces marched on Jerusalem and annialated it almost completely. The temple, long central to the Jewish tradition was gone. Many Jews simply gave up and folowed pagan customs, whils what was left of the Pharissees struggled to salvage what was left of their ancient traditions. They hoped to reunite Jewish communities by providing a common code of law. This gave birth to the rabbinic movement. The rabbis themselves, "teachers of the law", came to replace the the hereditary caste of Jewish priests who had officiated in that temple for years. So what? Well, the (unfortunately long-winded, and still not long enough) point here is that the entire world was in a religious, tribal, political, and sexual upheaval.. The Christian church of the time fell into a great deal of real power when Augustine ended the persecutions and adopted the religion. The church used the "holy writings" to hold and maintain power and influence in the financial, political, and spiritual world. That all continues into the current day. To a large extent the sexual attitudes, especially celibacy, were nothing more than a direct and obvious way to reject the Roman lifestyle. All of this still colors our ideas and mores even today. As far as homosexuality is concerned, there's a great deal of dogmatic gymnastics performed out there for the sake of justifying the current church's view on the subject. Sodom and Gommorah are used as examples, but most theologins who choose that as a defense point, overlook the fact that the defiance in the face of God was the real issue, not the sexual bent. Most of the origin of current sexual mores comes from Genesis, and that's where all the ideological pretzel work really begins. Even by the time of Jesus, well over a millenium, Jews had taught that the purpose of marriage, and therefore of sexuality, as procreation. Nevermind that the Jewish communities had inherited their sexual customs from nomadic ancestors whos very survival depended upon reproduction... both among themselves and their herd animals. Prostitution, Homosexuality, abortion, infanticide, and other practices both legal and tolerated by most pagans of the time contradicted Jewish custom and law. Generations before Jesus, Jews, like many other peoples, invoked their creation myths to prove that tribal customs were not barbaric or peculiar, but part of the very structure of the universe itself. Sorry to ramble on so long, but this bears a great deal of interest to me as an ordained minister, historian, and general pervert... (hahaha) __________________ Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.