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Originally Posted by OpieCunningham
I'm trying to find the method the Chechens could use to fight this war which would not result in their total destruction within days or their total subjugation of living in a Stalinist dictatorship.
They are vastly outnumbered. Vastly outgunned, technologically. And have basically zero international support.
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Trying to understand is one thing. Defending the current actions of those terrorists in the school in North Ossetia is an entirely different thing.
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Chechens have three options:
1- Give up and let Moscow tell them how to live (i.e. stop trying to be free).
2- Let Moscow kidnap/torture/murder them
3- Fight to the death ... which would be quick and complete
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As I said above, they have more options.
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I would choose option 3. But if all Chechens choose option 3, all Chechens would be killed - this is genocide commited by the Russians.
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OK.... I understand the logical progression, but I don't see the point. It just doesn't make sense. A is like B. B is like C. Therefore A is like C. Logically correctly, but meaningless in the current argument. It wouldn't happen, so why mention it?
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Should I, as an American, just wait until that comes to pass and then denounce the Russians as evil, or should I look at the entire situation (not just the most recent act of either side) and point out that there is no Good side and there is no Evil side in this war? Both sides are acting equally incorrect and need to stop.
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Absolutely. The most cogent thing you've said in this thread (in my opinion and with the greatest respect). I agree 100%
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This is what they did. They tried to peacefully move away from Moscow. Moscow responded by attacking them.
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So that therefore justifies abandoning the political process? There's a fundamental
moral issue here. I think some things are completely unjustified. Always. The current actions of the hostage takers is an example.
You asked what other options there were. I gave two. I don't have a crystal ball to see into the future and see what will happen. Putin will not be in power forever. Maybe the next President will not care if political parties in Chechnya want to secede from the Federation. You can't say it won't work. So basing your justification for child-kidnapping and the murder of civilians on this is not valid.
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That's not what I meant. I mean what else do you think could possibly happen? Everything you have suggested does not apply.
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Everything I have suggested does not apply? Well, there's not much response to that kind of blatant intransient statement now, is there? LOL
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I'm not justifying anything. I'm asking what you (or an American) would do? So far, the suggestions you offered would clearly be 100% ineffectual.
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Well, it seems to me that you are justifying their actions. What else would you call your repeated defence of their attack?
You also seem to be repeating the same error again and again. I am not discussing the pros and cons of Chechen seperatism in general. I am denouncing, in the strongest possible terms, the actions of those particular terrorists in North Ossetia today. It's quite simple really.
Freedom fighers? Understandable. Whether I agree with their goal or not is irrelevant.
Child murders? Never, ever, EVER justified. And it does their entire cause a great disservice.
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You speak those words, but I don't see that as being true.
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Well, that's your opinion. You can believe you can see into my head if you want, but you obviously cannot.
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You have offered up no logical recourse which would not result in either their continued suffering or their death.
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Yes I have. Repeatedly.
1) Continue a standard guerilla war, with clearly defined "legitimate targets".
2) Resort to the political process.
3) Wait for Putin to retire
Everything seems to be black and white in your book. It's not.
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I have already stated what I would do if I were in their position. And my actions would be a tacit agreement that life is hopeless. I would not threaten children - but the result would be the destruction of my people.
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There you have it again. The result of your not threatening children would be the destruction of your people.
Wrong. You are justifying and explaining their actions, as if they were victims and had no free will or choice of actions, once more.
No. But you seem to imply it is.
Mr Mephisto