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Originally Posted by OpieCunningham
Obviously. One of us is in touch with it - the other believes that Israel has been "defending" themselves.
I assure you, if the Native American's had not been almost entirely wiped off the face of the earth and if they had even a modicum of support from neighboring countries, they would indeed be at war with with us today. And rightfully so.
Disagreeing completely and totally with the UN decision to take land from people and give it to some other people does not mean I have to be anti-UN and wish it to be disbanded and have none of their resolutions lived up to. I'm not clear how my disagreement with one issue is supposed to apply to everything and anything the UN has done - but I attribute your analysis to your grasp of reality.
This is where you have it backwards - it is irrelevant as to whether and/or who "gave" them the land - the question is precisely whether it was right or wrong. I see no evidence of any righteous purpose in giving them that piece of land - because it was wrong. From that decision, Israel then fought for a wrong - ergo, they are the initial aggressor of the war.
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and this is why i'm gonna leave this thread now... it's actually a topic i prefer to avoid unless talking with friends because people generally have rather polar views on it. and while i can be sarcastic, i try to keep things civil. right now i'd say your barely treading the line, and i don't feel a flame war is worth it.
i'm just gonna end this with this.
the war in 1948 was mainly isreal vs. neighboring arab states. "Meanwhile, Arab military forces began their invasion of Israel on May 15. Initially these forces consisted of approximately 8,000 to 10,000 Egyptians, 2,000 to 4,000 Iraqis, 4,000 to 5,000 Transjordanians, 3,000 to 4,000 Syrians, 1,000 to 2,000 Lebanese, and smaller numbers of Saudi Arabian and Yemeni troops, about 25,000 in all. Israeli forces composed of the Haganah, such irregular units as the Irgun and the Stern Gang, and women's auxiliaries numbered 35,000 or more. By October 14, Arab forces deployed in the war zones had increased to about 55,000, including not more than 5,000 irregulars of Hajj Amin al Husayni's Palestine Liberation Force." http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+il0029)
considering the number of arabs that lived in the area governed by britain, and the number that stayed and became citizens, i think it could be said isreal was at war with the "palestinians" the way teh US was at war with the Branch-Dividians, or the local militia's in the mid-90's.
you're right about one thing though, i did take my "anti-UN" statement and brought it to an extreme that doesn't have to be true.
and it's not irrelevant who gave them the land. land is property. it has always been controlled by the people in power. usually that power comes from military might. there was no govt. there other than a british colonial one, so setting up a govt. for isreal is no different than what we're doing in iraq (except we're replacing one instead of starting one from scratch). it must be nice being able see the world from rose-tinted glasses, but that is not how the world works.
and from the same page... "By January 1949, Jewish forces held the area that was to define Israel's territory until June 1967, an area that was significantly larger than the area designated by the UN partition plan. The part of Palestine remaining in Arab hands was limited to that held by the Arab Legion of Transjordan and the Gaza area held by Egypt at the cessation of hostilities. The area held by the Arab Legion was subsequently annexed by Jordan and is commonly referred to as the West Bank."
i don't hear you bitching about jordan not giving the west bank back to the palestinians. until you're willing to look at things with more than "isreal bad" running through your head, and apply your opinions to everyone involved, i will be immature and tell you to, in the immortal words of the heart break kid, shawn michaels, "Suck It." X.
/done, not coming back, feel free to get the last word in. i prefer to live in the reality that is the world as it is, not as it might be in fairy tales.