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smooth · 08-30-2004, 12:45 PM

I also should add that I'm not arguing that abrogations of what one might consider freedom do not occur in other nations, which seems to be what your reply took exception to. Unless you connect the dots for me, I have no way of knowing how your uncle being co-erced into providing pro-statist articles translates into a requirement to vote for the incumbant of his nation, let alone at all times in all countries.

My point was that you select those types of things to 'prove' to yourself that such people over 'there' experience freedomlessness and juxtaposition those select experiences with ones over here that 'prove' to you that we experience, on the whole, freedomness--as if there were intrinsic qualities to each flavor of freedom rather than contemplating that 'freeness' is a social construction.

The danger is this might force you to disregard stories of people getting arrested for hanging a banner that read "bush and the truth point in opposite directions' from their hotel balcony. You might disregard it out of hand, but you are most likely to interpret it in such a way that conforms with your worldview.

That is, you might think, well, they were trespassing or being loud or being obnoxious, or even that they don't really have a 'right' to display such banners on 'private' 'property' (I've enclosed quotes around all the socially constructed categories we have created to support our nation's notion of freedom, and believe them to be real in and of themselves). I don't know whether that really happened, only that I heard Tom Hayden say so last night on C-SPAN. I have only eaten lunch with the man one time, and can't say for certain how he frames his experiencs to others or whether he can provide me an accurate portrayal of the events as I would have interpreted them.

But I am willing to engage in questioning the premise that we actively participate in the free-est nation on this planet. And I think other nations would dispute that statement, as well, likely believing many of them live in a free-er nation.

08-30-2004, 12:45 PM	#43 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	I also should add that I'm not arguing that abrogations of what one might consider freedom do not occur in other nations, which seems to be what your reply took exception to. Unless you connect the dots for me, I have no way of knowing how your uncle being co-erced into providing pro-statist articles translates into a requirement to vote for the incumbant of his nation, let alone at all times in all countries. My point was that you select those types of things to 'prove' to yourself that such people over 'there' experience freedomlessness and juxtaposition those select experiences with ones over here that 'prove' to you that we experience, on the whole, freedomness--as if there were intrinsic qualities to each flavor of freedom rather than contemplating that 'freeness' is a social construction. The danger is this might force you to disregard stories of people getting arrested for hanging a banner that read "bush and the truth point in opposite directions' from their hotel balcony. You might disregard it out of hand, but you are most likely to interpret it in such a way that conforms with your worldview. That is, you might think, well, they were trespassing or being loud or being obnoxious, or even that they don't really have a 'right' to display such banners on 'private' 'property' (I've enclosed quotes around all the socially constructed categories we have created to support our nation's notion of freedom, and believe them to be real in and of themselves). I don't know whether that really happened, only that I heard Tom Hayden say so last night on C-SPAN. I have only eaten lunch with the man one time, and can't say for certain how he frames his experiencs to others or whether he can provide me an accurate portrayal of the events as I would have interpreted them. But I am willing to engage in questioning the premise that we actively participate in the free-est nation on this planet. And I think other nations would dispute that statement, as well, likely believing many of them live in a free-er nation. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman