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roachboy · 07-01-2004, 09:31 PM

actually, wonderwench, that is not the problem. the problem is that the way in which it looks like you think is shaped by ways of framing problems that i think are indefensable---i am not in any way calling you or anyone else stupid--but instead i think that we cannot talk unless you open up the way in which your frame of reference is put together.

for example, when you say things like "government running our lives" and "the way in which people are naturally wired" i have no idea what you are talking about--both seem arbitrary to me...

i still do not understand what possible objection you have to the redistribution of wealth... seriously....i do not understand what your viewpoint rests on. it seems to me that if you think about it in system terms--the economy is not separable from the the social situation that it shapes, and that shapes it---opposing seriously transfers of wealth is self-defeating. were you to actually eliminate them, you would bring the system to its knees immediately. it would be chaos. or it would be total repression dressed up in the language of democracy. i cannot imagine that either would be desirable. i wonder if you think about what might happen were your position to be put into effect. and try to think about it without reverting to some horatio alger bullshit about people pulling themselves up arbitrarily by their bootstraps as if the context for that act was irrelevant.

btw--regarding something from earlier--you would not have indoor plumbing were it not for sewage system--sewage systems are public works--paid for via taxes--the links to indoor plumbing systems, public works, tax funded. sewage systems became feasible not because of mass production, but because of the development of portland cement. period. there really is no debating this. your preference for indoor plumbing presupposes an infrastructure that would not exist--would not exist--without the redistribution of wealth.

you could say the same about the american highway system.

you could say the same about the telecommunications infrastructure that lets us waste time on places like this. you know, the power grid, just as an example. state funded. never would have happened via private initiative.

you could say that were it not for state support of early computer research in silicon valley, that there would be no valley in anything like its present state--you dont believe me, read some history of the valley.....

the list could go on and on....

07-01-2004, 09:31 PM	#207 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	actually, wonderwench, that is not the problem. the problem is that the way in which it looks like you think is shaped by ways of framing problems that i think are indefensable---i am not in any way calling you or anyone else stupid--but instead i think that we cannot talk unless you open up the way in which your frame of reference is put together. for example, when you say things like "government running our lives" and "the way in which people are naturally wired" i have no idea what you are talking about--both seem arbitrary to me... i still do not understand what possible objection you have to the redistribution of wealth... seriously....i do not understand what your viewpoint rests on. it seems to me that if you think about it in system terms--the economy is not separable from the the social situation that it shapes, and that shapes it---opposing seriously transfers of wealth is self-defeating. were you to actually eliminate them, you would bring the system to its knees immediately. it would be chaos. or it would be total repression dressed up in the language of democracy. i cannot imagine that either would be desirable. i wonder if you think about what might happen were your position to be put into effect. and try to think about it without reverting to some horatio alger bullshit about people pulling themselves up arbitrarily by their bootstraps as if the context for that act was irrelevant. btw--regarding something from earlier--you would not have indoor plumbing were it not for sewage system--sewage systems are public works--paid for via taxes--the links to indoor plumbing systems, public works, tax funded. sewage systems became feasible not because of mass production, but because of the development of portland cement. period. there really is no debating this. your preference for indoor plumbing presupposes an infrastructure that would not exist--would not exist--without the redistribution of wealth. you could say the same about the american highway system. you could say the same about the telecommunications infrastructure that lets us waste time on places like this. you know, the power grid, just as an example. state funded. never would have happened via private initiative. you could say that were it not for state support of early computer research in silicon valley, that there would be no valley in anything like its present state--you dont believe me, read some history of the valley..... the list could go on and on.... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 07-01-2004 at 09:34 PM..