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door · 05-26-2004, 07:45 AM

Roachboy, your my hero

look- we are talking about completely different types of GOOD here. There is Leibnitzes (I can never spell his damn name) GOOD which is actually not GOOD but rather fully BEST. Then their is the good of Candide which can be called DESIRES.

That is why Voltaire is wrong from the start. His Satire points out only that the desires people have are not always attained, and sometimes the opposit occurs, and so how can this be the BEST POSSIBLE WORLD? This is why ENGLISH scholars and writters should stick to thier schtick (ok, so I don't really believe that at all

).

The answer to Voltaires question is simple. What is most desired isn't always what is GOOD/BEST (in the Leibnitze sense). Isn't it very possible that the best is to experience many things, and have a world with a cornicopia of feelings and events? If that is the case, some people must have hell on earth, and others heaven. Some must spend their days chained and enslaved and others must enslave. That is a very possible explination of what BEST is. Not that I personally think so, but it is.

But this DOES show a problem with Lebnitze- his theory is self-sufficent and yet without proof- this is to say that all L must claim is that WHATEVER the world is IS the perfect world at this moment in time. His evidence is that this is because GOD makes the world perfect. But ask him how he knows God exists? Hopefully he wont (but I think he does) state that God exists, in part because the world is perfect.

WOAH! - Circle time!. (look anything like a MR. Descartes?) But Leibnetze doesn't say this alone, of course.

The problem of evil is being misrepresented here- it is this:

1) God is Benevolent
2) God is all knowing (omnipresent)
3) God is all powerful (omnipotent)
4) God created all things that exist
5) Evil exists

- the problem, of course, is that a Benevolent God can't create evil, right!?

here is where I think the error is- in the interpretation of 1 and 5.
- God is benevolent, but that has NOTHING to do with OUR desires, but rather the GOOD of all. But what is best for all? It seems that what is best is FREEDOM (some will argue this of course). But in a theistic view, God gave man ULTIMATE freedom, knowing he would use it for ill and cause pain. But if freedom is the ULTIMATE Good, then God giving us freedom is the best, most perfect existence (other than God, who has freedom too it seems). So, then, evil is done and had by man!

- Some will say, though, that God still allowed evil, and created it in a sense and so there is still a problem! But to this I reply that evil isn't a possitive thing. Its not like an orange or a person. It doesn't actually exist at ALL! Rather evil is the ABSENCE of some existence. Lets call this existence, for the purpose of debate, Gods will.

- Now if we are part of Gods will, choosing freely to be in accordance with God, then there is no evil. But if even ONE creature goes against God, they have done evil. Here is the Bitch of course: If am am completly "good" I may still experience evil because of others! Hence Candide.

This all make perfect sense then?

So there really isn't a theist problem of evil at ALL.

And as far as Perfect Worlds are concerned, remember- if maximum freedom is best, then the perfect world is one where God only acts when necissary, and man is able to perform moral evil on one another if they choose (at least for a time).

*please note that other "evils" such as tornados and famine are usually accounted in the "problem". How can these exist if God is good etc.? But I would hope that people can seperate NATURAL bads from what "evil" is. But if someone is unwilling, then all I must say is that even the weather dangers only exist because of mans freedom! (it actually says this in Genesis more or less).*

05-26-2004, 07:45 AM	#12 (permalink)
door Upright	Roachboy, your my hero look- we are talking about completely different types of GOOD here. There is Leibnitzes (I can never spell his damn name) GOOD which is actually not GOOD but rather fully BEST. Then their is the good of Candide which can be called DESIRES. That is why Voltaire is wrong from the start. His Satire points out only that the desires people have are not always attained, and sometimes the opposit occurs, and so how can this be the BEST POSSIBLE WORLD? This is why ENGLISH scholars and writters should stick to thier schtick (ok, so I don't really believe that at all ). The answer to Voltaires question is simple. What is most desired isn't always what is GOOD/BEST (in the Leibnitze sense). Isn't it very possible that the best is to experience many things, and have a world with a cornicopia of feelings and events? If that is the case, some people must have hell on earth, and others heaven. Some must spend their days chained and enslaved and others must enslave. That is a very possible explination of what BEST is. Not that I personally think so, but it is. But this DOES show a problem with Lebnitze- his theory is self-sufficent and yet without proof- this is to say that all L must claim is that WHATEVER the world is IS the perfect world at this moment in time. His evidence is that this is because GOD makes the world perfect. But ask him how he knows God exists? Hopefully he wont (but I think he does) state that God exists, in part because the world is perfect. WOAH! - Circle time!. (look anything like a MR. Descartes?) But Leibnetze doesn't say this alone, of course. The problem of evil is being misrepresented here- it is this: 1) God is Benevolent 2) God is all knowing (omnipresent) 3) God is all powerful (omnipotent) 4) God created all things that exist 5) Evil exists - the problem, of course, is that a Benevolent God can't create evil, right!? here is where I think the error is- in the interpretation of 1 and 5. - God is benevolent, but that has NOTHING to do with OUR desires, but rather the GOOD of all. But what is best for all? It seems that what is best is FREEDOM (some will argue this of course). But in a theistic view, God gave man ULTIMATE freedom, knowing he would use it for ill and cause pain. But if freedom is the ULTIMATE Good, then God giving us freedom is the best, most perfect existence (other than God, who has freedom too it seems). So, then, evil is done and had by man! - Some will say, though, that God still allowed evil, and created it in a sense and so there is still a problem! But to this I reply that evil isn't a possitive thing. Its not like an orange or a person. It doesn't actually exist at ALL! Rather evil is the ABSENCE of some existence. Lets call this existence, for the purpose of debate, Gods will. - Now if we are part of Gods will, choosing freely to be in accordance with God, then there is no evil. But if even ONE creature goes against God, they have done evil. Here is the Bitch of course: If am am completly "good" I may still experience evil because of others! Hence Candide. This all make perfect sense then? So there really isn't a theist problem of evil at ALL. And as far as Perfect Worlds are concerned, remember- if maximum freedom is best, then the perfect world is one where God only acts when necissary, and man is able to perform moral evil on one another if they choose (at least for a time). please note that other "evils" such as tornados and famine are usually accounted in the "problem". How can these exist if God is good etc.? But I would hope that people can seperate NATURAL bads from what "evil" is. But if someone is unwilling, then all I must say is that even the weather dangers only exist because of mans freedom! (it actually says this in Genesis more or less).