I appologize ahead for grammatical errors and mizspellincs;
I had to take images out because my dpi was off at 300 making them huge and displacing the margins resulting in an unaccetable annoyance. Please excuse this disrupting the thread with my thoughs via offthrowing the page wasnt my intention. Once I get them corrected I may put them back up depending if the conversation is still going as these tend to die off fast.
I’ve entered this discussion a little late, but with variances in the specific subject that opens this topic every time the conversation schematics are relatively the same. Coming in late also left a high number of comments I’d like to respond to, but again each response only leads to the same foundation so I’ll just state my opinion.
As a quick background note; my views are my interpretations of history, current events, and personal experience. I state interpretation of history because past everything; its documented stories past down by other individuals that were there. All a person has is the faith in the creditability of the sources from which generalized belief comes from. I make a point of this because in the past 2 years of my membership here at TFP I’ve read a lot of “history lessons”. Some invited; others selected excerpts googleated in a selective pasted format presented in “this is it” fashion as if attending a college level Holy Land history course. It most cases there’s nothing wrong with that. I use google just like everyone else; it’s one of the great things about the technology of today- all of us can converge together here and give opinions, data, and other tools for learning and growing. The disturbing aspect I came to realize after debating in this area is history is being taught differently; being interpreted differently, and contributing to some of what the world is seeing today.
The outcome in relation to interaction on TFP led to multiple frustrating talks with certain members. One in particular (who hasn’t been around in a long while) began putting out historical facts; as he interpreted them. Specifically a breakdown of the population in percentage of ethnic groups in what was known as Palestine in 1922 and similar years. I firmly disagreed with the numbers. This led to an inquiry of his sources; which preceded research into his sources’ sources- as far down the chain as possible. It turns that most of the information was from sources that had Zionist influence at some capacity. I may disagree with the philosophy of Zionism, but I will make every attempt I can reasonably muster to listen to an opposing view; provided there’s no distortion of the facts. I was comparing what he was stating to a source I consider as close to being valid as possible; the census gathered documented by the British during the mandate period. In one fair swoop this other member proceeded to deny the previous existence of hundreds of towns and thousands of individuals. It reminded me of people that attempt to promote the belief that the Holocaust is a lie. That’s his reality; his interpretation of history. I’ve never truly understood how many versions there are of the historical, cultural evolution of the Holy Land until engaging in TFP discussions.
Current events create debates from opposing perspectives. These perspectives are drawn from what has been deemed accurate by cultures, groups, and individuals. History and sources of daily news are what most have to gather the thoughts of what their perception is: both are unfortunately probably going to be funded with agendas in mind. Through it the only guide a person has is a view crafted by personal education, interpretation guided by critical thinking, and what their heart tells them. If there wasn’t differences of opinion there wouldn’t be debates; or what’s actually happening for that matter.
Personal experience is a strong element a person can use to base their thinking and beliefs on. Being at a place. Seeing it. Hearing it. Experiencing it. Living it. I haven’t personally lived it; because in the 36 times I’ve been to Israel they were prior to the 2 infitada occurring. Including Egypt/Sinai I’ve been to most regions of the area. I was lucky enough to accompany and assist an archeologist: Ron Wyatt (for any interested- http://www.wyattmuseum.com/ ) those visits were educational on many levels. Some aspects continue to lead to frustration I have with spirituality and science, and others changed a prejudice I had for as long as I can remember- a dislike for Arabs. It’s consisted of things I had been taught growing up, and a general lack of desire to investigate further than what I heard from the general consensus of my friends. This was further enhanced during my years of active duty military service. Looking back every Palestinian I met was polite and very kind. Surprising; 75% of the ones I met were Christians. Most of the Jews I met were also kind; it was just a little weird for me to see cute 21 year old good looking females at the mall with M16s strapped around their back- as Israeli citizens are allowed to do. The only rude demeanor came from those praying at the wailing wall; which is understandable- having someone watch you doing spiritual practice could be annoying especially when its time to walk backwards away from the site. It wasn’t until years later that my views would change drastically.
Here’s the reality and the relentless frustrations I’ve come to understand: The only true nature and deciding tone of righteousness of that patch of Earth is conquest. It’s changed hands, empires, and ruling entities many times. If one would argue about who was first; then perhaps anyone who descends from Canaanites should have first pick. No; the stronger sword decides who the righteous are; as it has always been anywhere in the history of the human race. The difference from now to a thousand years prior is the hopeful thought humanity has progressed in more than just technology. The UN in all of its flaws seems to be the only hopeful stage that has the potential to bring some kind of order and justice to a world that seems bent on destroying itself. (I’m not referring to a NWO). Recent history is important to Americans, because through Manifest Destiny a world has been created that most wouldn’t give up without a fight; even if it meant their own death.
In my interpretation of the history of this area: it’s fairly recent that the area now known as Israel was titled Palestine. This was located laterally to an area known as TransJordan. I've seen attempts to dispel who was living where and when; according to a census conducted of Palestine prior to the Zionist immigration: 78% were Arab Muslims, 9.6% were Arab Christians, and 11% were Jewish.
Heres a map of towns and villages some would rather be seen erased from history.
No it wasn’t a recognized country by the UN or America; infant entities within their own right; and yes it was mandated by an Empire that has had a lengthy history of successful conquest. Neither of which changes the fact that people were there. Towns that existed for hundreds of years; some direct evolutions from the Ottoman Empire. And in the direct disagreement with those of modern Zionist beliefs; Jews were a small minority. To any that dispute this fact I invite to research documentation from British records. If they appear to disfavor what the chosen interpretation is; then reading quotes from UN addresses of the founders of Israel may help spell it out more clearly. Ben Gurion and other regarded heroes tell the true nature of how Israel came to be. Their own words lay the foundation to what a person will either agree or disagree with. If anyone has the ability to approach something with a neutral mind even if only for a brief moment: read speeches and famous quotations given by the founding Zionists. Take the names out and and look past any cultural references (arabs or indigenous population as it was often stated) and take in what it is these individuals are actually saying.
Therein lies the personal paradox for myself. The closest analogy I can think of is the historical evolution of the United States. Is the manner in how the land was appropriated evil? I can say I’m happy to live where I do; but I would have had a problem watching Native Americans being dealt with in the manner they were. The present truth is the history wasn’t pretty, but the fact remains that I was born in the United States and that makes me an American. I have a right to live in peace in a place that is a home I was born of.
Though a small presence of Jews existed in Palestine; it was the European Zionist immigrants that founded and appropriated land they see as being their own by religious beliefs. I've seen this reality (or as I interpret it) verbally side-stepped, flowered, double –talked, and openly ignored by many I’ve conversed with. It doesn’t change the truth. However; as with any other place on Earth, the true manner of territorial debate was carried out with war and the Jews whether first or last, or for whatever reason were extremely successful at “kicking ass”. That is their true element of right of statehood. They fought a war and won their land. They were generous in giving territory seized beyond their desired goals back to Egypt (a substantial amount I might add- the Sinai Peninsula is huge) and through the hardships endured by war their right to exist was and is forever etched into humanity. The dark side of this falls on the indigenous population who’s mere existence many are denying. Call them what you choose Arab, Palestinian, Jordanian, Vulcan they were and are people just as much as the most recent populates are.
In the here and now a person born in Israel is born of the land. Regardless of the how’s and whys they are and forever will be Israeli. That fact alone translates that Israel as any other national culture has a right of existence. Within that right also the justification to defend those that would seek to destroy its existence. And here is the problem. Here is also the reason why America seems to be Israel’s only ally. A majority of the planet has a disfavorable view toward Israel. I think it’s a vital mistake to attribute that to anti-Semitism. In my view I see some would see some validation in thinking its about people hating them because of spiritual beliefs; it takes away accountability of clearly visible ACTIONS.
Although Ive provided a couple maps I want to put history aside because I see anyone who enters these discussions to a deep degree has done the historical homework. At this point they are going to accept what they currently believe as their perception of what’s happening.
My problem, bewilderment, confusion, or what ever one chooses to call it lies with the here and now. Namely within what the UN (the very entity that gave Israel the recognition it sought) set forth territories that are internationally recognized as being the sovereign areas of the indigenous population now known as the West Bank and Gaza strip. The areas in and of themselves are a SIGNIFICANT reduction from what they used to have. The refugees living in Jordan (the displaced thousands that only those that agree with what Israel is doing consider Jordanians or “Arab”) aside the Gaza strip and West Bank are the most densely populated areas on Earth. Towns that even some Israeli soldiers consider “Ghettos” where they are stacked onto top of each other in the worst kind of ways. That doesn’t have to be good news or bad news simply because it is the news. It’s what the rest of the world interprets and has granted them as being theirs. Israel doesn’t appear to see it that way.
I’ll put this in straight forward and simple terms to hopefully avoid any side-stepping, or double talk. I’ll comment on that further down. Here’s a recent West Bank map with a simplistic interpretation of what I see happening. Please understand that this situation started BEFORE the suicide bombings.
The purple lines represent check points- stations within the boundaries of what is legally theirs. The harassment faced daily by families and people of all ages at these stops is done in the name of prevention of terrorism; these actions began long before the second uprising. The circle around Jericho is the simple truth of what is in store for the Palestinians. Notice how the Palestinian controlled area has now become completely encircle by Israeli occupation. Occupation the Bush administration has just label as being justified. What happens to the people inside as settlers continue to annex land? Continue with the full protection of the IDF?
[IMG]http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QgDRAjsUwq*QF9k7Cj9*EvXEeUkYUX5*!LGObFkwU5HwiRwztxcJLQnYSvPtWNi9ZGjm3Kg6MKI4iJwqmjidMuG4xPyETVx5MwgJPH8SfPs/westbank.jpg?dc=4675468829469476336[/IMG]
It would b e a different story if the IDF wasn’t in the territories. It would be a different story if settlers weren’t being allowed to populate in Palestinian areas. It would entirely different if the boundaries that are UN sanctioned (whether or not one agrees or not) were fully being observed, the were no resolutions being drawn on Israel with violation to human rights and aggression was being carried out by the Palestinians. I think the entire world see things differently. I've read comments stating it would be too much of a risk. For one thing that creates a difficult matter to establish a model of comparison as the areas internationally recognized as being Palestinian, have never been fully given to the Palestinians. Another is the generous offers references are commonly made too qualifiy for a second look: this one for example-
http://www.doublestandards.org/shockwave/barak_eng.swf
I don’t understand how one can not look at where the settlement situation is going and not recognize elements of genocide. Hence my reasoning for putting the simple pictures as to not offend or challenge anyone’s intelligence; but every time I address the issue; its avoided. To me when a cultures schools and universities are closed, populates harassed, land owners destroyed when they attempt to protect what’s theirs, males rounded up nightly and jailed without trial or investigation, and numerous other things I wont even mention paints a picture for me of a people with nothing to hope for and whose only inevitable future is that Jordan will take them in so they can join the others in refugee camps. The angrier Palestinians evolve into a mindset wanting all of Israel destroyed, but I’ve read and seen numerous Hamas militants that state the will put down their arms the moment Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza.
People getting killed from suicide bombs is a horrible thing. There’s two ways of seeing it one: its happening: kill them all or two: kill them- but perhaps take a single look to what would drive a person to do such a thing.
I read statements here and in the fashion of a question “ So blowing children up is justifiable” or “murdering innocent civilians in a discotech is alright” and similar statements. I’ve never read where a member stated that or felt that way. I would get the feeling occasionally that the author of such statements truly understood what the person was saying, but chose to take it to that place. That in turn would annoy me. I understand that the forum is sometimes a place where one has to accurate detail every point they make in careful context that statements can easily be temporarily manipulated. I’ll personally give no power to such tactics (if being used as such) as I humbly believe there is no one here that believes murder is a good thing.
Maybe someone can help me to understand how allowing the expansion of settlements is a justifiable thing and explain what should happen to the Palestinians when they will eventually collide. I long for some kind of comprehension that its OK.
Presently Im left with the impression that the Palestinians may or may not be getting F*$%^ or some degree smaller or larger; but the bottom line is if they are not smiling about what is occuring to their lives and the future of their culture as a whole; they're wrong. So with the dog and pony show of some settlements being disbanded in an almost "politically correct appeasment fashion" while the reality that West Bank settlements are expanding and annexing land daily the people who own the land should in all counts behind over and start smiling- becasue anything less will bring extreme consequences. I've heard the statement "They want to throw us into the ocean"; the real situation could truly fool me.
If a Palestinian land owner takes arms against a settler that annexes land via fencing in an area they shouldnt even be in the first place; are they a terrorist? (often referred to as "Palestinian gunmen")
I also want to mention that when I refer to Israel I don’t mean all Israeli’s; there are many that disagree with what’s happening.
The famous words survivors shouted “Never again” . . .
Never again . . .
I notice there is images once again up done in the form of political humor. I take no offense to them as I have done plenty myself (usually- proceding accusations that Im trolling) I just want to confirm that particular rule has been lifted so I dont break it.