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smooth · 04-02-2004, 02:24 AM

Are you done shotgunning irrelevent questions at me? Fifteen example when one would suffice isn't going to convince me.

You could just ask me if I thought people should be free to say whatever they want whereever they want.

I didn't say that. I made it pretty clear the value I was supporting was freedom of political speech.

But none of that is relevent because my point wasn't that my moral value is more important than yours. My point was to say that we each place a different value on something. I find it hypocritical to support one nation in denying an extradition agreement on a moral basis and not support my country's refusal to extradite for a legitimate moral reason.

I don't particularly care what Canada does at this point--that's not my country and I'm not saying what its people should or should not do. I didn't say that they should refuse to extradite him because of my country's value of freedom of expression. I said that my country could have refused and you should support our sovereign decision if we feel it violates our moral code.

I don't feel bad that you don't value speech as highly as I do. That's not going to change my mind on the subject, and neither are a series of rhetorical questions. I do feel upset that you respect Germany's decision to refuse to give us a convicted murderer because the people don't like the punishment, but you wouldn't have respected our decision if we had refused to send this guy because we don't like the punishment.

In fact, I think it's worse, because in both nations murder is a crime, but in this case only one nation thinks the behavior is a crime. So now you're actually infringing on another of our values: we don't support punishing people for behavior we don't think is criminal.

Now I'm confused in that I don't know which belief I value more--freedom of expression or that one ought not to be punished for behavior we don't think is criminal.

Both are written in our Constitution and form the heart of our identity--an identity you earlier claimed didn't actually exist.

There are some idiots out there who abuse their rights. But our rights do form the basis of a free society, most of us choose not to do stupid shit like yell fire in a crowded theatre. You think the law stops people from yelling that? It just punishes the people who do it, the people who don't choose not to do so on their own accord. Having this freedom comes responsibility and possible repurcussions of innocent people being harmed. That's the balance we constantly strive for in this nation. I'm not ready to move beyond the "free speech is everything" mantra, although I can see that you already have. That mantra was our single most important gift to the world--and I don't know any liberals who would disagree with that because it comes straight out of Enlightment thought.

04-02-2004, 02:24 AM	#45 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Are you done shotgunning irrelevent questions at me? Fifteen example when one would suffice isn't going to convince me. You could just ask me if I thought people should be free to say whatever they want whereever they want. I didn't say that. I made it pretty clear the value I was supporting was freedom of political speech. But none of that is relevent because my point wasn't that my moral value is more important than yours. My point was to say that we each place a different value on something. I find it hypocritical to support one nation in denying an extradition agreement on a moral basis and not support my country's refusal to extradite for a legitimate moral reason. I don't particularly care what Canada does at this point--that's not my country and I'm not saying what its people should or should not do. I didn't say that they should refuse to extradite him because of my country's value of freedom of expression. I said that my country could have refused and you should support our sovereign decision if we feel it violates our moral code. I don't feel bad that you don't value speech as highly as I do. That's not going to change my mind on the subject, and neither are a series of rhetorical questions. I do feel upset that you respect Germany's decision to refuse to give us a convicted murderer because the people don't like the punishment, but you wouldn't have respected our decision if we had refused to send this guy because we don't like the punishment. In fact, I think it's worse, because in both nations murder is a crime, but in this case only one nation thinks the behavior is a crime. So now you're actually infringing on another of our values: we don't support punishing people for behavior we don't think is criminal. Now I'm confused in that I don't know which belief I value more--freedom of expression or that one ought not to be punished for behavior we don't think is criminal. Both are written in our Constitution and form the heart of our identity--an identity you earlier claimed didn't actually exist. There are some idiots out there who abuse their rights. But our rights do form the basis of a free society, most of us choose not to do stupid shit like yell fire in a crowded theatre. You think the law stops people from yelling that? It just punishes the people who do it, the people who don't choose not to do so on their own accord. Having this freedom comes responsibility and possible repurcussions of innocent people being harmed. That's the balance we constantly strive for in this nation. I'm not ready to move beyond the "free speech is everything" mantra, although I can see that you already have. That mantra was our single most important gift to the world--and I don't know any liberals who would disagree with that because it comes straight out of Enlightment thought. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman