I knew I would regret this....
Quote:
Originally posted by iman
balderdash:
ockam's razor: If it takes over a year to remove debris from a site, what are the chances that the exact info you need will turn up two days into the search?
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a) there's a big difference between removal and investigation. For one, when you are looking for documents, you can ignore the huge pieces of steel.
b) the 2 day figure is news to me. I had the impression that during the first 2 days they were more interested in putting out fires and looking for survivors, but that's beside the point....
c) I don't know when they found what, but I suspect it was not all turned up within a couple of days. They found one thing, then another. They probably still don't have all the info on everyone on that flight.
d) Finally, as noted before, a significant amount of airplane debris was thrown clear of the building in the initial impact, so it seems likely (esp since he was in the front of the plane) that some of the terrorist-pilot's info went clear as well.
Quote:
Originally posted by iman
ockam's razor: If there is no forensic evidence to link debris back to a bomb, how can one positively identify the debris as belonging to terrorists? All the debris from the plane and from the tower would be EXACTLY the same, and nobody would be able to tell which passport came from bad guys and which one from a good guy. Remember, the last major terrorist incident in the US was carried out by white guys (Oklahoma city). The unabomber was a white guy. The guys at ruby ridge were white. There are plenty of white militants in this country who could have carried out the attack.
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Um, yes. White people could have carried out the attack, but they didn't.
I imagine that when they started cross checking passenger lists against intelligence, they found some hits. Would it have been nice if they had been cross-checking when the tickets were purchased? Yes. But as it happens, the databases are not all linked, so the names weren't recognized.
How much debris was recognized as belonging to terrorists, anyway? We found identity documents, you say, and they're readily indentifiable (obviously). What else? We knew about box cutters from flight attendant reports. We had pictures of them in security checks. My point: I don't think it was the debris that linked the terrorists to the attack.
Quote:
Originally posted by iman
Ockam's Razor: why the hell would a terrorist pack a bag and check it in for a suicide trip? Why would he put anything personal in the bag - a bag that's just going to be destroyed? The government would have us believe that these guys were highly trained professionals, so why would they fuck up like that?
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SOmeone said this already, but getting on a flight with no bags looks really suspicious.
besides, maybe they figured the contents of the bags would be destroyed in the crash, so they could get rid of evidence that would have been useful in finding other cells?
Quote:
Originally posted by iman
You can make up lots of hypotheticals to answer those, but there is a simpler answer: Somebody made up all the evidence and the guys blamed for the attack weren't the guys who did it. Also, remember that Bush never allowed the public to see the incontrovertible evidence that linked Al-quaeda to the attacks - and we've STILL not seen that evidence.
Simple answer: The shit linking the 19 hijackers to the attacks was made up.
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This makes me laugh. I have a mental picture of some guy saying "Sure, you can come up with lots of " (makes air quotes) "
answers and
explanations but..." etc etc.
How do your arguments refute these explanations? And why do you think they lead to the inevitable conclusion that the whole thing was made up?
MrSelfDestruct:
Ok, your turn.
Bush knowing earlier than he says:
To repeat the question in the article you posted: why does it matter when Bush was told? Let's spin it the worst possible way for the administration:
Bush was told in the motorcade, or shortly after he got out, that a plane had hit the world trade center. He goes on with his scheduled event anyway.
And this leads you to think it was a government conspiracy how?
Here's my theory: Assuming this was true, the reports seem to suggest that Bush had incomplete information at first (only that there had been an air crash at the WTC - not that it was a commercial airliner - I think I remember someone in the administration saying they thought it was a little plane when they first heard about it - but have no data to back it up). He went on with his appearance anyway. Air crashes happen, and there's not much the President can do about it after the fact. And there was no indication at the time that this was a coordinated attack and that there was more to come.
But let's say it was worse: Let's say Bush was told an airliner had hit one of the WTC towers. Let's even suppose that he was told it was likely a tower would collapse. What does going on with the appearance prove? That he's unsympathetic? Maybe. That he wasn't as attentive to a continuing crisis as he should have been? Maybe. That he was involved? Not at all.
Eyewitness reports:
The sources don't seem particularly credible, and, frankly, I think a 51 year old woman seeing a plane over her head is a poor witness. There is no point of reference for judging scale, and I suspect that it went by so fast and so unexpectedly that her memory is not all that clear.
The engine:
The Unsolvedmysteries.com info, again, doesn't seem particularly credible. They seem to be pulling together every rumor they can find.
On the engine itself, I have no reason to doubt that a full-speed crash into the ground wouldn't send some debris flying a great distance.
*EDIT* (oops, hit "return" by mistake so it posted before I was done)
The UFO:
That little smudge could be one of about a million things. With all the cameras filming the tower, this should have appeared on dozens of recordings. Show me that on at least one other tape and we'll talk.
Final point: a conspiracy of this magnitude would require an ENORMOUS number of people. Pilots, FBI, FAA, DOD, etc. If it were true, you can be damn sure someone would have spilled the beans by now.