SuperMidget

Things have gotten a little slow in here, so I figured I'd pose a question to all the rifle guru's in here.

What defunct (read non production) cartiridge would you like to see come back into mainstream use?

OR, If you think you have a better idea for a wildcat (assuming all the requisite tools and machining capabilities) cartridge, what cartridge would you modify to create a better performer?

Feel free to answer either or preferably both in as much detail as possible.

I'll start out.

Defunct: .244 Remington was a production cartidge in the 60's and 70's that was a sweet target shooter. It came back into production in the late 80's to early 90's as the 6mm Remington. I would like it back in it's original form because it was a hotter, harder hitting, flat shooting cartirdge.

Wildcat: I always wondered what a .338 Winchester magnum would do if one necked it down to .27 (7mm). In essence turn the .338 into a flat shooting long range cartridge.

The_Dunedan

I'd personally like to see the return of the .350 Magnum. As close to an American-made mag-Mauser as we ever produced until recently, and short enough that the bolt throw was very, VERY quick for such a powerful round; ideal brush-country dangerous game round.

__________________
"I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world."

--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Moonduck

Looks like that shot went high, SuperMidget.

Personally, I'm a handgun guy. I admit to knowing jack-all about wildcatting rifle rounds and old defunct oddball rifle cartridges. I had an oddball Mauser for a bit that would've been nice to get a better selection of commercially available stuff for, but that's purely selfish. It didn't shoot all that well and I wound up unloading it on a friend that didn't mind hunting for ammo.

Sure would like to see more handguns in 10mm Auto, my favorite autopistol cartridge. There's just no good reason that a round with that terminal performance and ease of shooting should not have done well commercially. Damn the FBI for screwing things up for the rest of us.

SuperMidget

Thanks moonduck, you reminded me of an old handgun cartridge.

My memory is very hazy, but with everybody excited about the new .500 S&W, I wonder if any of them have heard of the .500 Maximum. I am not sure who made the cartridge but I am positive that the only gun capable of using it was a S&W (Probably the only reason Smith and Wesson came out with the .500 S&W). It was discontinued because it was damn near impossible to control.

If anyone has more concrete info, please share as I would love to hear it.

Moonduck

I remember that name. What was it in?

...

I know that it was in the same calss as the .500 Linebaugh, which means frikken cannon. There were a number of custom SAA type guns made, usually using one-off frames or Ruger Super-Blackhawk frames heavily modified. Can't remember much beyond that.

SuperMidget

I think it was in either Guns n' Ammo or American Rifleman. Had to have been about the early 80's, because it was right about the time Ruger was recalling all the old SAA revolvers, so I don't know if it was a Super Blackhawk...Which means it could have been done on a modified Colt Python. It's about the right time frame, but I think it was a smith frame.

Now that you mention the .500 Linebaugh, It was most likely wildcatted off of it.

Damn moonduck, verily you are a god among us. I think my new misson is to find something to stump you.

Moonduck

That's easy enough to do, SuperMidget, just talk about rifle cartirdges. If they aren't military calibre or basically conventional, I'm clueless. I like muh handguns though =)

A S&W M-27/whatever frame could do it, likely. They overengineered that frame SO heavily that it can handle as amazing amount of abuse. Hard to believe they built it for the .357 magnum. Still, in the 80's, even during the recall (and after in some cases) gunsmiths were fond of the.... c'mon brain, work.... three-screw (?) Blackhawks (pre-passive hammer-block) for any sort of custom work. The recall, from what I remember, was to install the hammer-block and thus pointless to most shooters.

My Dad had a Super Blackhawk at that point and received a card in the mail from Ruger on the recall. He round-filed it considering it not worth his time. When he carried the gun, it was hammer down on an empty cylinder like he'd always carried it. Sadly, that old iron got stolen during a transatlantic move, and was replaced witha post-recall Super Blackhawk. Still shoots as straight, but I still say the old one's trigger was leaps and bounds better.

As to Pythons, boy those old ones were sweet. I had the chance to pick one up used for $400 in the late 80's. I turned it down as it was somewhat of a rough piece and was VERY poorly parkerized (action was crap). Nowadays, seeing the prices Pythons go for, I wish I'd bought it and restored it. Sheesh.

123dsa

Marlin now makes a lever gun for the 350 belted magnum. Badass.

LSD

SuperMidget

Yeah, moonduck, I have a friend who is kicking himself over the Python also. He had to sell it back when and still kicks himself everyday because of it.

It'd be no fun to stump you about Rifle cartridges. I think I'll stick to handguns. Unfortunately I'll be at a disadvantage. Goody, one more chance to edumacate myself.

Here's one for you, .44 Bulldog. I'm not really sure, but I think it may be from the .44 Special family.

Moonduck

The only ".44 Bulldog" I've actually handled was a gun made by Charter Arms called, obviously, a Bulldog. The model was a 5-shot medium-framed snubnosed revolver, though it was a .44 Special, not a .44 Bulldog. It was compact, if a bit weighty, and looked like a great concealment piece (if you could conceal it, wide gun). Rossi, years later came out with a Bulldog, though it was chambered in .44 Special, still a 5-shot snubby. Since then, quite a few manufacturers have made semi-concealable big-bores, almost always in .44 Special.

As to the actual .44 Bulldog cartridge, it was, I believe, a Colt cartridge design, or at least the only guns I've ever seen it in were Colt revolvers. Vague memory says shortened .44 Special, essentially, and the era, total guess, would be the 40-50's, when Elmer Kieth and the boys were handloading the .44 Special to truly obscene pressures. The .44 Bulldog was likely made in response to the popularity of the bore, but with an eye towards concealment.

SuperMidget

Damn, thought maybe I had you.

I think I'm going to redefine the nature of this thread. This is now the official ask moonduck about handguns thread, since it seems to be a converstion anyway. This doesn't mean I'm going to give up, but I have a question for now.

Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone makes a single stack 9mm pistol. All I have been able to find are double stacks. 1911 style would be a bonus, but not really necessary.

Moonduck

Do you want vintage, modern, or ultra-modern?

Vintage: Luger P-08, Walther P-38, Colt 1911-A1 in 9mm (Colt made 'em, good luck finding one), Tokarev (retch, vomit, blech, crap guns), Polish Radom, many others

Modern: Taurus 918, Firestar, Astra makes a single-stack but I'm blank on the name, Sig 228, European Sig 220's can be had in 9mm, Walther P9S

Ultra-modern: I believe S&W made a single stack Sigma in 9mm in a short production run, Glock has recently put out its' compact .45acp in a single-stack format and it may be followed by a 9mm, H&K P7M8 (truly the best of the lot, though not at all cheap)

If you really dig the 1911 style, contact a custom maker. They probably can build a 9mm 1911 very easily (I am certain that there are still manufacturers producing 9mm barrels, mags, and frames), and if you hunt around, it won't be super-expensive. We have an outfit locally that does it (Dare Gun Room) and they make some very solid pieces.

SuperMidget

Thanks for the info Moonduck. I'll have to keep those in mind next summer.

Back to the cartridges, I have a good one for you. .38 (not sure the designation, but I think it's either Super or ACP). Basically it was a super fast, and very hard hitting cartridge. Possibly a rival to the .45 acp in pure punch. I do know colt was the only one to make guns for it. I want to say the era was the 30's or 40's...

Moonduck

Definitely .38 Super. I've owned one. Various companies have looked for .357 Magnum performance in an autopistol friendly cartridge for years. .38 Super has been around since the 30's (I think) and is ballistically similar. It was intended as a police round, from what I recall, and had some popularity with the harder units within depts (sort of like today's SWAT, but much more informal). They liked the .38 Super in the 1911 because it was a fast shooter and punched through steel car bodies well.

If you read up on Bonnie and Clyde, you'll find references to .38 Super both in their hands and in the hands of various law enforcement types that sought to stop them.

The .38 Super I had was a Series 70 Colt Commander with an alloy frame. The shorter slide, alloy frame, and hot load combined to produce a gun that was very unpleasant to shoot. I'd bought it as a CCW piece and was terribly happy about it. Then I took it to the range. I realized that it was overly hoppy during recoil, and had accuracy issues as a result (first shot was great, slow-fire was great, rapid-fire was problematic). I sold it with a quickness.

As time went on, I came to realize that it was simply the 1911 design that I didn't care for (yes, I am aware that it is blasphemous to say that). I didn't really give that Colt a fair shake. Later 1911's I've owned were worse in some cases. A Para-Ordnance P14-45 was much better though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. (I also sold the Para-Ordnance, at a loss, though it was to a good friend).

To sum up, .38 Super is a great, classic round if you want better terminal performance from an auto pistol. Just don't buy it in a very light package like I did. Another thing to realize is that I expect accuracy out of any gun I own, and have thus gone round and round on concealment pieces. My standards for accuracy aren't unrealistic, but are high. Take my comments on the Commander in .38 Super with another grain of salt.

Oh, if you want to pack an obscene amount of firepower in a normal autopistol, take an EAA or CZ full-sized frame (for the .45ACP), add a .38 Super top-end (moderately common for IPSC style usage). EAA used to make .38 Super magazines and Brownells used to carry "repair" kits for them. The bloody things held 19 rounds. Yup, 19+1 with a ballistic efficacy approaching .357 Magnum, all in a large-framed autopistol. That's a lot of shooty.

SuperMidget

Damnit, thought I might have had you.

I have one that will stump you though. The 6mm PPT (could be the Benchrest but I don't think so). It was only chambered in one gun, ironically the only pistol Remington ever made.

Moonduck

Easy one, though I can't remember the model number, though I will have to gig you points on part of your comment.

The only pistol Remington made in the modern era was a single-shot, bolt-action target/hunting piece most commonly chambered in .223, though it has also been seen from the factory in .221 Fireball, .22-250 and *drumroll* 6mm PPT (among others). As to performance characteristics, can't say much as it is out of my area, but I would assume that it is a nice, flat-shooting small-bore well suited to varminting and target shooting that this gun is designed for.

As to your comment on Remington, I point you to the Remington New Model Army, Remington Dragoon, Remington Double Derringer and the many other revolvers Remington made during the cap and ball era. Remington was very big on handgun design and made some great guns. In the modern era, sure, the XP-100 (looked it up) is the only thing Rem's offered, but such a blanket statement, tsk. =)

SuperMidget

Yeah, I know, never say never. I was in a hurry, and blanked on the old cap 'n ball pistols... I thought giving you the Remington hint would be too much.

I've been studying for finals, so I haven't had time to figure out a new one. So for now, I will concede you are indeed a god until I'm done this week.

Moonduck

Not a god, just a gun geek, and out of date. I've not followed the market closely these past few years. Having a coupla kids has caused me to stop buying guns as often as I'd like.

And you're right that the Remington hint was too much. I doubt I'd have gotten it as quickly without that, and maybe not at all. As I said, I'm not into benchresting, wild-catting, and the like. You have handed me some solid challenges though, keep 'em up!

SuperMidget

Ok, I have a new one for you. Well, several actually, but they all fall into the same category.

How's about the .32 Rimfire, .38 Rimfire, and the venerable (always wanted to use that word) .44 Rimfire.

Moonduck

Very common in the later black powder era, early cartridge firearms time period to be precise. When S&W intro'd their #1 chambered in .22 Rimfire, they really started something. It showed that cartridge firearms were a viable idea, and people really latched onto it hard. The (for the time) insanely quick reloads and much greater reliability factor really sold those little guns like crazy.

There was also a meanness factor in that the nasty little things were very heavily lubed, and thus tended to gather all sorts of particulates. When shot into a human body, they were hard to find and thus those particulates would stay in the body, usually producing a nasty, and frequently fatal, case of blood poisoning or other nasty infection. The lil .22 was considered a VERY deadly gun as a result.

The various other rimfire calibres were attempts to increase the power of the cased load to the point where it might be useful for hunting, and to appeal to those that simply could not fathom the idea of a defensive round that pathetically small, infection or no. The .44 Rimfire was even used by units of the Army (cavalry) in one of the odd lever-action formats, I believe.

Centerfire cartridges were developed and the death of large calibre rimfire was assured. The little guys still use rimfire, but that is simply because the case diameter at base is such that even small primers would be tough to put in.

debaser

I'd love to see the .41 AE make a comeback.


As far as wildcats go, how about a .50 Beowulf necked back down to 9mm? It would be the oddest round ever...

__________________

SuperMidget

debaser, interesting choice for a wildcat. Just curious as to why neck it down to 9mm, or was that an arbitrary choice?

Moonduck, I haven't come up with a new cartridge yet, but I just thought you would like to know, Springfield Armory makes a 1911 9mm pistol. I saw one at the gun shop this evening, but the price tag ran about $700.

Moonduck

$700? Ouch, unless it's one of their gussied up models. You could probably build one from parts for less than $500, if you have moderate skill with tools and access to the right stuff (vice, coupla inexpensive specialty tools, various handtools). Unless your locale is odd, the only part that you will need to buy from an FFL holder is the frame. Everything else can be gotten from numerous sources. Check Brownells out and see what they have. There are also lots of other places where you can probably find stuff cheaper. Then again, it is a bit of a project to bite off if you don't have the skills and tools.

One wildcat I did like was 9x25 Dillon. It's a 10mm Auto case necked to 9mm. With normal pressures and a good compensator, the gun recoiled down =)

SuperMidget

I would love to build my own pistol, but for the next couple years school takes priority. Since math only gets harder, I won't have time. Still, it'll be a fun project to keep in mind.

Anyway, I have another question. Do you have any experience with .22/.45 conversion kits? Do they work well, are they easy to install/replace? I ask because there seems to be a bunch of Kimber Customs for really cheap prices. It might possibly a good option to think about. Practice and become comfortabl with a .22 and move up to a .45 whenever I feel like it. (I have shot large caliber pistos before, so I know I can handle it. It's more about getting comfortable with the gun and having something inexpensive enough I can put quite a few rounds through it.)


Recoiled down? sounds like it would cause quite a bit of confusion if you weren't ready for it.

Moonduck

Yeah, the shooter that was talking about it, a major IPSC competitior, said it was EXTREMELY disconcerting, and took a lot of getting used to. Once he had it dialed in though, it was far easier to handle.

.22 conversion kits have been around for nearly as long as the 1911 has, with varying success. The modern ones moreso than the old ones. There's some very good theory to back up shooting the same frame, manual of arms, etc and just switch calibres for cost. It's been my experience that you can frequently buy another gun for the cost of the conversion, though, and there are some analogues out there. Ruger, in particular, has a neat .22 (.22/45 I think it is referred to as), that is a Ruger Mark II on top, and a polymer frame designed to be very close to the 1911 on the bottom. Very inexpensive, accurate guns.

Personally, I like to own/shoot as many different guns as possible. You never know what might be put into your hands, and I'd rather be as familiar as possible with as many different systems as can be. Additionally, I am of the strongly held opinion that it doesn't really matter what you pull the trigger on - any practice is good practice.

If you do decide on a 1911 with a conversion kit (and I in no way consider this a bad idea at all, especially if you're talking Kimber), make darn sure that you buy a good quality conversion kit. It'll cost you, but it'll be far less than the possible damage that a poor quality kit might do.

SuperMidget

Thanks for the info Moonduck. This summer, I will finally be able to and plan on, barring the unforseen, purchasing my first pistol. So right now, I'm doing research and finding out options and availability of various handguns. One of my major concerns is shooting cost. As of this moment my choice is leaning toward the Browning Buckmark. However, I plan on keeping my options open. Any info and insight is appreciated.

Moonduck

Two thumbs up for the Buckmark. I own one and have used it as a teaching tool more times than I can count. I've also had about half the people that I've taught to shoot on it try to buy it off of me. I just keep sending them out to buy their own, as there no reason for me to sell mine. Great gun!

SuperMidget

You know, I have never seen or heard of a Buckmark going bad. Nor the Mark 2 by ruger, but I don't like the way that one feels.

Anyway, I'll be gone for the next couple weeks, and hopefully I'll have a new cartridge for you.

Moonduck

I look forward to it.

If you are looking for options, give the Ruger 22/45 a try. I honestly didn't care for it, but I also don't like 1911's, as I've said. Personally, the Buckmark is the only option I need in a .22 pistol, so I think you're making a good call.

SuperMidget

Hey moonduck, decided to bite the bullet and plow through on dialup.

anyway, I have a new cartridge for you. I know this will be an easy one, but I have seen it mentioned on a couple boards and would like some clarification.

9mm Short

The way people have described it it sounds like the .380 acp. Can you clarify?

debaser

I'll steal Moonducks thunder here. The 9mm Short (or 9mm Kurz) is identicle to the .380 auto round. The vaunted PPK is actually stamped 9mm Kurz (well, mine is anyway).

__________________

Moonduck

Ooh, debaser, ya bum. That was my thunder =P

On a related note, "kurz" is "short" in German. Probably obvious, but I figured I had to clarify something...

saltfish

8MM Remmington Magnum Rifle Cart.

Many members of my family have been called to 'keep our eyes open' for these carts. When we do find them, we have to inspect each and every cartridge for cracks and thin spots. We have a large game hunter in the family that will not retire his weapon.

-sf

Moonduck

Saltfish, I frequently buy reloaded ammo (quality reloads) from a company called Georgia Arms, as they use great stuff (Speer Gold Dot, Nosler Partition in rifle rounds, etc) and they come to the major gun shows in my area. Years ago, I remember looking for .30-40 Krag for a friend of my grandfather. I wandered by their table and they had in three different loads. I was shocked and thus spent some time perusing all the old ammo they had. There was .45-100, 7mm Arasaka, .30-40 Krag, .38-40, etc. All sorts of older cartridges, loaded to original specs.

I'm not saying that they'll have 8mm Mag, but you might want to send them an e-mail and see if they have a line on the shells.

http://www.georgia-arms.com/

Moonduck

Oh, and speaking of oddball handgun cartirdges, how about .38-44 HD?

=)

SuperMidget

The original Magnum Cartridge. It predates the .357 Mag and continued to be produced by Smith and Wesson for decades after WWII.

Originally used in the S&W Outdoorsman, the first gun to use Magna Stocks, when S&W switched to numbering their pistols It was dubbed the M20. Production ceased in 1966. The balistics are equal and sometimes greater than the .357 Mag.

How's that Moonduck?

Moonduck

*applauds*

Bravo. It's one of my favorite cartridge stories, and the one I keep looking for at the gun shows. Not all that unknown, but I like it so I figured I'd mention it.

SuperMidget

I'll keep an eye out for a .38-44 in my ongoing crusade. If I see one I'll let you know Moonduck.

SuperMidget

Hey moonduck. Just thought of another cartridge. This one is a bit of a wildcat, so I'm not entirely sure you'd know it. .475 Maximum, Probably based on the Super Blackhawk frame.

Moonduck

Same stuff as before. I cannot recall who made the Maximum line, though I want to say that Linebaugh (of the .500 Linebaugh name) was the guy making revolvers for it. I need to do some research on it.

I think all of the Maximums and Linebaughs were wildcats. Probably cut down from something freakish like .500 Nitro Express rounds (I believe the Nitro's were not shouldered rounds. Those old black powder carts tended to be straight-walled.)