CC Permit-Do you Use it?

[markd4life]

I was wondering how many of you, and how often, are you asked to produce your concealed carry permit? I live in a CC state, I carry sometimes...but do not have a permit. Then again, I do not put myself into situations that require I produce a permit. I also live in a rural area. So I was wondering about the average person, ...Do you really NEED that permit? Do you USE it?

[cj2112]

I live in rural Southern Oregon. In Oregon carrying a concealed firearm w/o a Concealed Handgun License is a Class A misdemeanor,a relatively serious crime. A permit is under $100. How much do you think it's gonna cost me if I get caught w/o the permit? The permit is cheap. It's not a risk I would even consider taking. Oregon law allows for open carry almost everywhere (Beaverton, Portland, and Government buildings excluded) w/o a permit.

I have been pulled over for minor traffic violations a couple of time since I have had my permit, I always hand the officer my permit w/ my license. I have found that the officer calms down considerably when I volunteer this info, rather than freaking the fuck out when he sees my .45 in the center console of my truck. it seriously makes the stop go much smoother.

[KirStang]

Only voluntarily produced it once during a traffic stop. But I would never carry without a permit--not worth the potential criminal consequences.

[Walt]

Originally Posted by markd4life

I was wondering how many of you, and how often, are you asked to produce your concealed carry permit? I live in a CC state, I carry sometimes...but do not have a permit. Then again, I do not put myself into situations that require I produce a permit. I also live in a rural area. So I was wondering about the average person, ...Do you really NEED that permit? Do you USE it?

I have never been asked to produce my CC permit in the 7 years that I have had one. I have been legally obligated to produce it more than once. My state (and most that I know of) require a person to immediately inform a law enforcement official if they are carrying a concealed firearm whenever they are interacting in some kind of official capacity (ie: a traffic stop). Most people do this by handing over their CCP along with your drivers license when asked for ID.

Originally Posted by markd4life

I carry sometimes...but do not have a permit. Then again, I do not put myself into situations that require I produce a permit.

Forget about the traffic stops, etc. If you ever have to use that concealed firearm you sometimes carry, you can be damn sure that the cops will ask to see your permit.

Originally Posted by markd4life

I also live in a rural area. So I was wondering about the average person, ...Do you really NEED that permit?

Dude. If your state's laws require that you have a CC permit to carry a concealed firearm....then you need to have that permit to carry a concealed firearm. It's part of that whole "responsible gun ownership" thing.

[cj2112]

Originally Posted by Walt

I have never been asked to produce my CC permit in the 7 years that I have had one. I have been legally obligated to produce it more than once. My state (and most that I know of) require a person to immediately inform a law enforcement official if they are carrying a concealed firearm whenever they are interacting in some kind of official capacity (ie: a traffic stop). Most people do this by handing over their CCP along with your drivers license when asked for ID.

Most states do, but Oregon does not require me to inform law enforcement that I am carrying. I am required to notify them only if asked. I inform them without being asked because I don't want them being surprised by it when they see a spare magazine in my glove box or see my gun when I reach for my wallet, or any other reason. Surprises like that are not a good thing.

Forget about the traffic stops, etc. If you ever have to use that concealed firearm you sometimes carry, you can be damn sure that the cops will ask to see your permit.



Dude. If your state's laws require that you have a CC permit to carry a concealed firearm....then you need to have that permit to carry a concealed firearm. It's part of that whole "responsible gun ownership" thing.

That is exactly why you NEED that permit if your going to carry concealed.

[rahl]

In ohio you are required to inform a law enforcement officer you have a permit only if you are actually carrying. You are not required to inform him if you aren't carrying. As far as needing a permit, I think it is a very good idea since it requires basic firearm safety and demonstratable skill to obtain.

[therealcat]

1. No one should need a permit to exercise a fundamental human right.
2. Given that I live in plain old-fashioned reality rather than the America our founding fathers fashioned, I've got permission from Colorado to keep and bear arms. I don't need a permit to carry openly, which I do a third or half the time. No one's ever asked to see my permit, but it's there if needed.
3. I don't ever leave the house without carrying a gun. In the first place, rights are like muscles and IQ points: they benefit from regular, frequent exercise; in the second, the older I get, the easier it turns out to be to rely on good habits rather than decisions; in the third, I'd greatly prefer to lug around a gun and not need it than need it and discover I've left it home.
4. I'm very glad to see Arizona is on the brink of enacting Constitutional carry. That should be the norm in all 50 states.

[markd4life]

Thanks for the answers. Call me paranoid but I have never registered a gun, nor filed for a permit. I do not have a NRA or any right-wing bumper sticker on my vehicle. I don't hunt with or show off any of my weapons. Nobody knows I have them. Thats the way I plan to keep it. I value my privacy more than the risk.

[Walt]

[raptor9k]

deleted

[Jinn]

I echo Walt's sentiment but not his choice of words.

I consider it a simple question of cost/benefit analysis.

How likely do you think it is that the information that you own gun(s) will be used against you?

How likely do you think it is that you will at some point be found in possession of a gun in a carry situation for which you do not have a permit?

If you truly believe the former is more likely than the latter, I'd have to agree with you. But I don't think most rational observers agree.

[Walt]

Originally Posted by Jinn

I echo Walt's sentiment but not his choice of words.

Are you sure? Read this again. On the internet. In a public gun forum.

Originally Posted by markd4life

I live in a CC state, I carry sometimes...but do not have a permit.

Originally Posted by markd4life

Nobody knows I have [guns]. Thats the way I plan to keep it. I value my privacy more than the risk.

[Plan9]

*palmfaces himself with his permit*

[markd4life]

Originally Posted by Walt

Dude, thought we were trying to have a conversation...why the name calling?

[telekinetic]

Originally Posted by markd4life

Dude, thought we were trying to have a conversation...why the name calling?

You are acting irresponsibly, in a way that could reflect poorly on all responsible gun owners if you were ever involved in an incident that made the news, and do not appear to be fully considering the potential consequences of your actions. Is that better?

This is exactly the same as a thread asking if people use their driver's license, or just drive without them so The Man doesn't have their address.

[Walt]

Originally Posted by markd4life

Dude, thought we were trying to have a conversation...why the name calling?

You're right. I apologize for going that route. Allow me to rephrase and restate:

1) You have stated that you live in a CC state, though often carry a concealed weapon without a permit. I assume you are like me, in that you carry because you acknowledge the fact that you might someday need to defend yourself with deadly force. If you are preparing for that possibility, you need to be aware that you will have to produce a CC permit should you every have to draw your weapon.

Even if you don't ever have to use your weapon, illegally carrying a concealed weapon is an unnecessary risk when your state issues CC permits. You may not agree with laws requiring you to obtain a permit to carry concealed. If thats the case, I would advise you take it up with your elected officials. Your objections to current laws or concerns about "privacy" will do nothing to protect you from legal repercussions.

Long story short: for whatever reason, you are in violation of the law by carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. If you get caught, you can expect to be charged with "possession of a deadly weapon." The penalties vary by state. Some treat it as a Class 1-2 misdemeanor. Others treat it as a felony. A conviction usually brings a sentence of anywhere from 6 months to 3 years. If you get get convicted of a felony, you forfeit your right to own a firearm.

2) When you say you own unregistered firearms, I am assuming that you are legally permitted to own an firearm and that said firearms were obtained through a private sale. No worries there, though you should check out your local laws to make sure.

3) Your statement that "nobody knows I have firearms and illegally carry them concealed" needs to be re-evaluated. Your anonymity is an illusion. You admitted to violating the law in an online public form in a post-Patriot Act world. My only advice is that you make an immediate effort to ensure your actions and your firearms are in full compliance with local, state and federal laws.

[markd4life]

Thank you telekinetic for your response, yes I believe that is better than 'retard'. I'm not sure that one could compare a drivers license to a concealed permit....thats apples to oranges in my book. Listen, I appreciate all the responses, but they all go to prove my point.....We have different fears. You fear the consequences of being caught without one....I fear the consequences of having one.

---------- Post added at 10:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 AM ----------

To Walt 1) yes I know 2) yes again 3) yes count on it......thanks for your response. Apology accepted.

[cj2112]

Originally Posted by markd4life

Thank you telekinetic for your response, yes I believe that is better than 'retard'. I'm not sure that one could compare a drivers license to a concealed permit....thats apples to oranges in my book. Listen, I appreciate all the responses, but they all go to prove my point.....We have different fears. You fear the consequences of being caught without one....I fear the consequences of having one.

There is a difference between fearing the consequences, and respecting the law.

[samcol]

Originally Posted by markd4life

Thanks for the answers. Call me paranoid but I have never registered a gun, nor filed for a permit. I do not have a NRA or any right-wing bumper sticker on my vehicle. I don't hunt with or show off any of my weapons. Nobody knows I have them. Thats the way I plan to keep it. I value my privacy more than the risk.

I totally support your decision to carry without a permit.

I have my permit but never produce it. The must "notify policy" during a traffic stop is the most retarded and dangerous thing in my opinion. This does nothing but create an awkward situation for both the cop and the person being pulled over.

[Martian]

What about this makes sense? Put the paranoia aside for a moment here, and think this through.

Any time you are required to use a weapon in public, you're going to be expected to produce your permit, according to Walt and also common sense. So that means that either:

A) the first time you need your weapon they're going to throw you in jail, and then they'll know everything about you down to your rectal diameter, or

B) You never use the weapon even in cases where it's warranted for fear of A coming to pass, in which case you might as well not have it to begin with.

Here's a crazy thought: if you don't agree with having to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, don't carry a concealed weapon. It's not like it's going to do you any good if you ever need it anyway.

[Plan9]

Markd4life, it seems like you're ready and willing to get jacked up for a concealed weapon violation. Let me assure you that if you're carrying at the wrong place or time, any decent patrol cop with a few years under his belt is likely to notice. Let me also assure you that they'll give you two options when you stand up in court: take the charge or give up your gun. Just think about that, chief. You want the gun to be safe from bad guys... but you need the permit to be safe with the law. Please respect the law. It's not so bad. Some of us even think it helps maintain order.

[samcol]

It's not like having a ccw permit somehow gets you out of trouble if you have to use your weapon. The whole system is against you if you are a law abiding citizen trying to defend yourself. If you carry a gun then you have to accept the fact that you could see serious jail time, regardless of permit status.

If he's willing to face the consequences of carrying without a permit what's the big deal honestly?

Can't we all admit how ridiculous a permit to carry is? The bad guys will carry a gun anyway and the good guys have to pay fees to be 'legal' and have to put up with harassment from cops and society in general to just exercise the right to defend themselves.

People in this thread are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Plan9]

Horsepuckey.

Originally Posted by samcol

People in this thread are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Bullshit. And I could say your flagrant disregard for the law is the reason why we have concealed carry laws in the first place.

See what I'm getting at?

Originally Posted by samcol

It's not like having a ccw permit somehow gets you out of trouble if you have to use your weapon. The whole system is against you if you are a law abiding citizen trying to defend yourself. If you carry a gun then you have to accept the fact that you could see serious jail time, regardless of permit status.

Of course having a CCW permit doesn't get you out of trouble. Shooting someone, whether right or wrong in the end, will always equate to you having your gun confiscated, the cops perceiving you as a threat (you did just shoot someone), you getting cuffed and taken down town so they can sort the incident out. That's how it works. You can't just bust a cap in someone and expect law enforcement to show up, buy your side of the story, and go on their way. They have a job to do. Consider a CCW permit as a kind of superficial character witness; you had to be X type of "good" person to get it.

Originally Posted by samcol

If he's willing to face the consequences of carrying without a permit what's the big deal honestly?

Uh... logic? "If Richard Ramirez was willing to face the consequences of being a serial killer, what's the big deal honestly?"

The problem of him being a willing dumbass is that it looks bad for the rest of us. He becomes a part of the statistics that people use to say gun owners are dangerous. I'm only speaking to the concealed carry violation part. If he lives in a locale where he can legally conceal a gun in his vehicle or he engages in open carry, that's fine. But when he violates a law because he thinks its wrong, he's doing a disservice to all gun owners.

Originally Posted by samcol

Can't we all admit how ridiculous a permit to carry is? The bad guys will carry a gun anyway and the good guys have to pay fees to be 'legal' and have to put up with harassment from cops and society in general to just exercise the right to defend themselves.

As much as I dislike the CCW permit concept, I see how it works. The idea is that only law-abiding citizens will actually go and seek one out and thus those with said permits are generally more trustworthy than any old gangsta douchebag that tucks a Glock in the waistband of his sweatpants "just in case." I've never run into a CCW permit holder that acted like a dumbass with a firearm. I've met plenty of idiots who own handguns, though.

...

Bro, I wish we lived in a world where there were only good people and no gun laws... but then we wouldn't need defensive firearms.

[rahl]

Having a CCW permit is what differentiates you from the criminals you are trying to protect yourself against. Throwing up the finger at the "man" by not having one is just stupid. CCW laws are a great thing imo because it proves you aren't a criminal and demonstrates you are trained in both gun safety as well as shooting skills. People who carry and have no idea what the hell they are doing is a very dangerous thing. Not saying that you don't just that you haven't proved it.

I don't know about all the CCW tests in all the states, but Ohio's qualification is equal to the basic patrolmans, safety and shooting wise.

[Jinn]

I've never run into a CCW permit holder that acted like a dumbass with a firearm. I've met plenty of idiots who own handguns, though.

Totally anecdotal, but that's my experience as well.

[Walt]

Originally Posted by rahl

Ohio's qualification is equal to the basic patrolmans, safety and shooting wise.

Ok, now I'm scared.

[The_Dunedan]

Ditto. Think I'll avoid Ohio.

I use a CC permit mostly as a form of insurance. I open carry more often than not, and think it 103% Stupid that I "must" get permission to exercise a human, civil, unalienable and Constitutional right. However, I also recognize that unless I want to either get into a firefight with the cops or go to jail, I need to have certain bases covered. Given the state in which I travel and do business (armed, heavily) and the fact that I have my family to consider and not just myself in regards to the legal consequences of my actions, I held my nose and got the permit.

Now, as for the necessity of the permitting system and the idea that CCW holders don't do dumb things...come work in a gunshop for a week. Passing the CCW class can no more de-activate the Flaming Dumbass gene than I can with a Louisville Slugger. CCW holders can be just as moronic as anyone else.

I have no difficulty with "Vermont Carry." I regard it as the ideal. No permits, no background checks, no waiting periods, no begging your Top Cop for his signature...and one of the lowest crime rates in the country. This, combined with the fact that Police are -vastly- more inclined towards shooting themselves, partners, suspects, and bystanders than are civilian carriers, leads me to believe that I have more to worry about from an armed policeman than from an armed civilian, however they came by their arms.

[KirStang]

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

CCW holders can be just as moronic as anyone else.

Agreed. My classmates at my Florida CCW class couldn't hit a human sized target at 15.' Fifteen feet. AND THEY COULDN'T GET ON PAPER. But I suppose since most shootings take place under 15' and at contact distances I'd suppose it doesn't matter.

A CCW is a good idea if your state requires it. Helps cops differentiate between 'criminals' and non-criminals.

[rahl]

I don't understand how florida could issue a permit to someone who couldn't hit a target at 15 feet. My class failed 3 people who couldn't get 7 shots inside the kill zone at 20 feet. This is a prime example of why permits are needed. Dipshits who can't shoot have no business carrying in the first place.

[The_Dunedan]

Dipshits who can't shoot have no business carrying in the first place.

Fine, start with disarming the cops. I see more, and more egregious, safety violations combined with less-skillful shooting from LEOs than from any other sector of society of occupational niche. I am -vastly- more afraid of a cop with a gun than the average civilian carrier.

This is a prime example of why permits are needed.

No, it's a prime example of why people need to take -full- responsibility for their personal defense, not just buying a gun but getting training for it. The idea that I, you, or anyone else must ask Massa's permission before carrying a weapon to defend our lives is offensive, ridiculous, and runs counter to everything the Bill Of Rights (all of it, not just the 2A) is about. I held my nose and got the damned thing just in order to cover my family's ass. The right of armed self-defense is universal, absolute, unalienable and irreducable. Any person; man or woman, young or old, sick or well, gay or straight, has the right to carry the weapon of their choice anywhere in public spaces (as distinct from on private property) without asking anyones permission. The abrogation of this right has been a major symptom of the erosion of liberty in this country ever since the "Remington & Colt Pistol Act" was passed to disarm freed Blacks and ensure a safe working environment for the Pennyrollers and Ku Kluxers.

[Plan9]

America: Full of Rebels on the Streets and Pussies in the Courtroom.

Interesting history lesson and rabid personal opinions aside... follow the law and work to change it.

To use a stupid quote: If you're not a part of the [CCW] solution, you're a part of the [CCW] problem.

You don't have to sell your argument to me, you have to sell it to antigunners and nervous soccer moms.

[rahl]

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

No, it's a prime example of why people need to take -full- responsibility for their personal defense, not just buying a gun but getting training for it. The idea that I, you, or anyone else must ask Massa's permission before carrying a weapon to defend our lives is offensive, ridiculous, and runs counter to everything the Bill Of Rights (all of it, not just the 2A) is about. I held my nose and got the damned thing just in order to cover my family's ass. The right of armed self-defense is universal, absolute, unalienable and irreducable. Any person; man or woman, young or old, sick or well, gay or straight, has the right to carry the weapon of their choice anywhere in public spaces (as distinct from on private property) without asking anyones permission. The abrogation of this right has been a major symptom of the erosion of liberty in this country ever since the "Remington & Colt Pistol Act" was passed to disarm freed Blacks and ensure a safe working environment for the Pennyrollers and Ku Kluxers.

I have to disagree with this because if there weren't ccw laws then what incentive would people have to get training? You can say personal responsibility all you want but there's no way to enforce it without having laws in place.

Alot of people I know are ignorant of the fact they need training. They have a gun for home protection and figure they don't need training, all they need to know is that if you put these shiny brass thingies in the barrell and pull the trigger the gun goes bang.

[The_Dunedan]

I have to disagree with this because if there weren't ccw laws then what incentive would people have to get training?

Stopping the BG without blowing their foot off, improving their skills, personal enjoyment....what, you think all those people go to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, LFI...because they -have- to? At thousands of dollars per class? I doubt it.

You can say personal responsibility all you want but there's no way to enforce it without having laws in place.

The Law Of Natural Selection is -always- in force, and there are no appeals. It is not the job of the State to force anyone to do anything, whether that "thing" is getting a permit, buying health insurance, or joining the Marines. The job of the State is to -stop- people, under certain circumstances, from doing things which concretely harm others. Until a random moron hurts someone else, his idiocy is nobody's problem but his own. If he only hurts himself, or just looks stupid in front of his friends, that's his problem and nobody else's.

The problem with a permit is that it is, purely and simply, a permission slip. Permission can be denied just as easily as it can be granted, and "Shall Issue" States could become "May/Shan't Issue" with one change of the legislature. In a State like California it's perfectly legal for the Sherriff to refuse a person a CCW because "Niggers don't need guns, boy" or "Guns are for men, little lady, now run home and do the washing." If you must demonstrate a "need" or "proficiency" before exercising a human right, all that someone who wishes to deny or repress that right has to do is simply decide that your "need" isn't great enough or you aren't -actually- "proficient enough" to exercise that right...and hey-presto, instant victim. So what if the Sherriff is your abusive ex-husband's cousin and best friend? Sherriff said "no gun" so it's "no gun." So what if you're black and the Sherriff has a bedsheet hung in his closet? Sherriff said "no gun" so it's "no gun." And if you don't know there are -plenty- of LEOs out there who would dearly love to disarm every female, black, hispanic, muslim, catholic, and jew they see...you a'int been payin' attention.

[Plan9]

And for every guy that goes to Thunder Ranch... there are ten that accidentally shoot the TeeVee by failing to clear their pistol.

This entire discussions is either philosophical or anecdotal. I'm just suggesting we follow the law until we can change it for the better.

I reckon I'm younger and grew up in a more racially integrated area of the country. In fact, whites are probably a minority at my international student body university. I don't see all the racism you're getting at here. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I certainly don't think the race card is big enough to cover the issues why a concealed carry permit is stepping on our collective dick. I'm all for showing how whitey fucked up 400 years ago, but it's not directly pertinent to the OP issue.

Let me suggest that we're all speaking from the "responsible, well-trained gun owner with a permit" perspective. Except for the OP, of course.

[The_Dunedan]

I don't see all the racism you're getting at here.

I don't see it as being nearly as pervasive as it once was, but it's still there. A buddy of mine, DSGT A. Rios (US Army), once spent the better part of 2HRS securing his Pistol Purchase Permit because the dumb bitch as the Watauga Cty. Sherriff's Office simply refused to believe that a Messikan (actually a 3rd-generation US Citizen of Bolvian extraction) could POSSIBLY be legally in the US -and- not be a criminal. "He's big, brown, and has a Messikan name...he's gotta be a wetback, a drug dealer, or a pimp. Gotta be." He showed up in his dress uniform, with assorted military papers/orders, his military ID, birth certificate, passport -and- NC Driver's License...she demanded to see his Green Card. He showed her his BC...and she demanded his Green Card. Even after repeated proofs of his status not only as a Citizen but a Natural-borne one at that...she still demanded his Green Card. When he couldn't produce one (because he didn't have one) she threatened to have him arrested for, among other things, impersonating US Army personnel and attempting to purchase a firearm as an illegal alien! I had to call down there from 2 Counties over and explain to the Deputy who answered the phone what had transpired. He put me on the phone to Permit Bitch, whom it took 20mins to convince that DSGT Rios was, in fact, a Drill Seargent in the US Army, a native-borne US Citizen, and fully legal to purchase a firearm.

-THEN- she ran his background check and gave him the permit...but ONLY after "he'd been vouched for by an upstanding White citizen."

People like that, and there are lots of them out there, are the biggest single part of why I do not, cannot, and will not support permitting systems.

[Plan9]

That sucks. That seems more like an issue with the operators of the system than the system itself.

Replace your slack-jawed crackers with someone who's a team player and things will improve.

[Derwood]

"well regulated"

just saying.....

[FuglyStick]

I guess it's a question of responsible ownership, isn't it? People demand that they have the right to bear arms, and they have it. But that's not enough; they feel the need to "cowboy" it up and disregard the regulations that make responsible ownership possible.

[The_Dunedan]

"well regulated"

just saying.....

You might wanna look up what "well regulated" meant in context, as well as its' specific context as it relates to matters martial. Then rejoin the discussion.

People demand that they have the right to bear arms, and they have it.

Ballocks. They have the privilege of bearing some arms some of the time in approved places, all subject to several layers of official scrutiny and censure, and dependent upon their willingness to permit strangers to access private records and make a sight-unseen determination of their worthiness to posses effective means to defend their sweet life.

the regulations that make responsible ownership possible.

Responsible ownership is made possible by responsible ownership. Irresponsible ownership (criminal violence, negligence) is made possible by irresponsible ownership. Either is made possible, and reality, by the responsible or irresponsible -user-. Regulations have absolutely nothing to do with this.

[Derwood]

I know what well regulated means in context. It's still a limitation to what you're calling a limitless right