stun gun and .45 ineffective against pit bull
 

Saw this story on the local news, it doesn't specify where the dog was shot with the .45, but the shotgun definitely put an end to the conflict...


"SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) - Spokane County sheriff's deputies used a stun gun on an attacking pit bull dog. It didn't stop, so they shot it with a .45-caliber handgun, and it still kept coming. They finally killed it with a blast from a 12-gauge shotgun.

The sheriff's office says the dog was killed early Wednesday as deputies responded to a domestic violence incident at a home.

Deputies arrested a 32-year-old man who had been drinking and threatened his family. Two daughters, ages 2 and 3, who were inside the house were unharmed and slept through the dog's shooting."

Spokane deputies kill relentless pit bull | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | Local & Regional

I'm not suprised it wasn't taken down with just a .45. Animals(pitt bulls especially) react very strongly when they are pumped full of adrenaline. If you've ever hunted before you may know what I'm talking about. I've seen animals whose hearts and or lungs have been completely disintegrated yet the animal will run several hundred yards full speed ahead just from the adrenaline in it's system.

had a buddy who's drunk, cracked up neighbors decided it would be funny to sick their pit bulls (2) on him when he returned home from work- a large maglight effectively killed the first with about three swings, but the light now has a bit if a bend to it (still works) the second took two shots from a .45 - The dogs had both been de-barked, and he was taking tools out of the back of his truck (camper shell) so the first warning he had was the clicking noise of the dogs nails on the concrete of his driveway- however, this was why he had the maglight in hand, which he credited with himself not suffering injury.... police were called, and the neighbors were cited for some misdemeanor.... 2 weeks later they got raided for the whole crack dealing thing....... friend said he was not sorry to see them go... Incidentally, he has no problem with pit bulls, but rather blames the owners for making them into angry little biting machines...... ( should be noted that the little is in comparison to the rather massive dogs this guy tends to favor )

I just wanted to say, humans can do the same thing. It's a psychological thing to fall over when we get shot. Which is why drugs can affect such; its not that animals have a better adrenaline system. (I'm pretty sure.) As with anything unless youre taking out a major portion of the CNS (central nervous system) the human or animal will be able to act until enough blood flow or oxygen is depleted from the brain. Even with a major wound that can take up to a minute.

Doesn't surprise me. I've seen deer run 100+ yards with their lungs hanging outside their body.

Heard the same thing happen with a Rottweiler a few years back. The bullet - a 9mm - bounced off the dogs head! Again, a shotgun came to the rescue.

The best way to kill a pitbull (or any viscious dog apparently) is to get behind it and rip its two back legs apart as hard as you can.

Ive never tried it myself, biggest thing Ive ever killed is a bunny rabbit (that was all fucked up and myxy...I killed it to put it out its pain)

Attempting to jerk the dog off while singing "Relax" by Frankie Goes to Hollywood would probably be more effective than that.

Out of curiosity, where do you get your information/training concerning subjects such as these?

Notice how the report doesn't say where the dog was hit with the round from the .45? Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

My god... my spleen. Oh, the pain.

My dad told me. Like I said, I never tried it myself - but its supposed to break its back. You are also supposed to be able to rips its jaws right apart - but I figured the dog might bite your fingers while trying that. Ive heard that some breeds of dogs have very thick skulls, so clubbing them over the head might not be effective. I guess if the dog is right in front of you poking him in the eyes would also work pretty well.

Your dad's an idiot. That or he's trying to get you killed or castrated, take your pick.

1: You don't break an animal's back by making it do a split: splits affect the hips. Totally different part of the body, dontcha know.
2: If you -seriously- think that an aggressive dog is going to let you get your hands on it's hind legs, you've got another thing coming. That dog is vastly faster, stronger, and more determined than you can imagine, and if it's pissed it's meaner than shit. Try that move and say goodbye to your ballocks. Have you ever seen how quickly and flexibly dogs move in a fight?

Seriously, what made you think this was even vaguely a workable idea?

You do realize, don't you, that even an ordinary bird-dog can generate several hundred pounds of bite force? And that a pittbull or anything even remotely similar can top out at nearly a THOUSAND pounds? So unless you're capable of curling 500+lbs per hand, in -opposite- directions, while those 500lbs are pressing down on sharpened plates of tooth enamel, it a'int gonna happen. For a quick visualization imagine trying to hold up a 500lb weight, with one hand, and the weight has the blade from a pair of pinking shears attached to the underside.

Assuming the dog doesn't just snap your fingers right off (you -have- seen how fast dogs can snap, right? Or have they banned dogs in England too, along with guns and pointy knives?) this is probably the most sensible idea you've ever posited in Tilted Weaponry. Congratulations.

Pitbulls are illegal in the UK yes, along with Rotweilers and other dogs banned by the Dangerous Dogs Act. But some people still have them.

At the end of the day, a fully grown man is bigger, heavier, stronger than any dog... as well as far more agile and skilled in combat. Dogs are cowardly predators that normally only will attack a grown man when his back is turned. I am not saying that I would enjoy fighting a pitbull, or that it might not wound me - but if it came to it - it is far far more likely that the dog would die rather than me.

Oh, and if someone twice my weight violently forced me to do the splits, I dont doubt I'd be laid up and not feel like fighting anyone anymore.

QFT!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!

I take it all back. Please, PLEASE try this on a dog. PLEASE try to fight a pittbull, a Staffordshire Terrier, or an Akita with this mindset.

A dog can run at 40+ miles per hour. Can you? Can you even do 10mph? Bear in mind that Usain Bolt made it to what, 15-17mph in the Olympics?
A dog can bite at 400-1,000lbs/inch. Can you even -lift- 400lbs?
A dog can turn inside his own body length and lick his own asshole. Can you?

Think about that, then think about this. It takes approx 5lbs/inch of force to disrupt soft tissue, and about twice that to break bone. And you expect us, or anyone else, to believe that you can outrun an animal that's faster than an Olympic sprinter, out-turn an animal that can suck his own dick while walking around in a circle, out-tough an animal bred for killing lions, bears, wild boars, or Aurochs, -AND- win!? When this animal is more than capable, physically, of running you down like a rabbit and taking your hand off at the wrist? Have you SEEN what packs of wolves and wild dogs can do? Have you seen what ordinary house-dogs do to people every single year?

What's your plan; bleed on the thing, like the Black Knight? Sit on its' head and wait for morning, like the Leopard and Ethiopian?

Hey Walt; who's your money on? Schultz (125lb former Polizei K9) or our friend here?

Short of being bitten in the throat(jugular sp?) if a dog has you by the forearm, any average sized male will be able to fight it off. I don't think he ever said anything about outrunning the animal, simply fighting it off. I don't know about you, but I can easily lift an 80lb dog and smash it to the ground. So unless it has me by the throat, I am going to win. If it is a police dog I would be charged with feloneous assault, but I'm walking away from the fight...not the dog.

No, he said he would -kill- it, which is a simply ludicrous claim. SF's also claimed in the past that a 5.56mm full-auto rifle was the perfect thing to carry for bears, that the Israeli army issues weapons they don't even inventory, and that female MMA fighters are somehow being "forced" to compete.

And no, unless you can wrench your arm loose in the doing, being able to lift an 80lb dog is not relevant. Remember; that animal is biting hard enough to crush bone and shred soft tissues. As you're lifting it (with your sliced-up arm) it's pulling, squirming and wrenching its' head from side to side with all of its' -very- considerable strength. It's a'int dead-weight, it's -fighting- weight. It's kicking, biting, tearing at you. If you use a two-handed grip it's liable to go after the other hand as well, and if you hug it close to get leverage or control you've just brought your eyes, throat, jugular and carotids within striking range. That's not even counting the pain and loss of blood involved when an 80-120lb carnivore starts knawing on your forearm. Tendons, muscles, blood...these things are important, and a dog's jaws make very short work thereof.

Sorry, no. If what you suggest were true, a lot more people would escape Police K-9s and a lot fewer people would be mauled/killed in dog attacks every year.

Put another way, in reference to the OP: if a .45 pistol round -and- a stungun failed to stop this animal, what makes you think your unarmed self has a chance? This critter took a 12-bore to stop, mate. Your bodyslam would just make it angrier.

This thread needs some videos of dog attacks.

I used to have some, but right now I am surfing the web without virus protection.

Attack dogs can easily kill a person who far outweighs them.
Their strength & agility, pound for pound against a human, is well documented.

The neck is not the only place a person can bleed out from.
One good chomp to your femoral or brachial artery, is enough.

Yeah, everything I've heard/read about aggressive dogs generally state a lot of information about avoidance/evasion. I think it's generally considered a dire situation if it comes down to a melee against a dog of generally any large breed. However, when you look at the security class of dogs, no matter what, it ain't going to be pretty.

But a pitbull?

Just...no.

Oh, and there is one aspect of dogs that also differs from humans quite a bit that hasn't been mentioned yet: prey drive.

When you set off a dog's prey drive, it can be difficult to "talk them down," especially if you're the target.

I find the Lockheed / Loral Predator system to be an effective weapon against dogs of all sizes.

It's inexpensive, easy to use, lightweight, compact, and features a high capacity magazine.

The veterinary clinic I worked at briefly had a pit bull come in that had been shot in the head by a US Marshal. While it took the dog down, it did not kill it. I believe the animal was euthanized later by the vet because the owners did not authorize any surgery in time to save the dog.

The scary part, PP, is that what you describe is actually pretty common, especially with fighting/hunting dogs like Pitbulls, Staffordshire Terriers, Catahoulas, Presa Canarios, etc. Their skulls are very thick with sloping foreheads; the forehead of a Pitbull looks like the glacis plate of a tank, and works about the same way. I've had reports from my Law Enforcement clients of everything up to and including heavy pistol rounds (.460 Rowland, .45 Super, etc) skipping off the foreheads of these animals: the impact will frequently stun them, but the actual -damage- won't be anything more than a nasty gash. One unconfirmed report from a Co. Sherriff's Deputy has such a skip-off taking place with a .44 Special.

In this case, the bullet did enter the skull and caused some major damage, but it was possible the dog could have recovered with immediate surgery and a lot of physical therapy. Most dogs aren't worth that to their owners, though, with their short lifespans.

Wow. It penetrated the brain-case?! DAMN.

OK folks, dogs are even tougher than -I- though! Wow.

Can we get this thread into the Hall of Fame? It's got it all... guns, science, comedy, and the kind of angry persistence seen only in an enraged dog.

That and, thanks to this thread, this song totally has a whole new significance:

I think I have already stated that these dogs have very thick skulls, which is why a handgun might not penetrate if it was shot at the top of the head. If the dog was shot in the heart or throat it would certainly die instantly, but when it is attacking someone it is probably not easy to get a clean shot.

If the dog came at me most likely in a fight it would bite my forearm. Certainly it would be able to make my arm bleed and it would hurt - but its not like it has the strength to actually bite my arm of. While I forced it down with MY 300 lbs of weight against its 120 lbs, I would have a free hand to strike it in the eye or throat or ribs, to choke it, to hoist it up and drive it repeatedly into the floor or a wall, etc etc

A dog can only hurt you with its teeth, a human has multiple striking options, and is twice as big and twice as strong and twice as heavy in some cases (certainly in my case).

Like I said, I wouldnt fight a pitbull for fun, and I am sure it would hurt, but unless it can get at my throat or face, or I just lie there and let it eat me... it is not going to be able to strike a killing blow. If I tried to club him on the top of the head I might not do much but hurt and anger him... but I have the human intelligence to strike right into the throat, or throttle it, or gouge his eyes, or drive his face into the floor and break his teeth, or whatever else - which is another difference between a dog and a man.

If you look up stories of fatal dog attacks, you see the victims are nearly always children.

Dogs dont have the courage to attack adult humans unless it is a cowardly bite in the arse or back, or they are wild and desperate. They dont have the strength to kill adults in any normal circumstances

What makes you think you can keep a 120lbs pitbull from biting your face? Something like 77% of all dog bite injuries requiring medical attention are facial.

You are right in that, statistically it is the very young and very old that get killed by dogs. However, every year, there are a handful of healthy 20-50 year olds that also get killed by dogs. Most of these, though, is by multiple dogs, as they are pack hunting animals, and I don't even think YOU would make an argument that you could take out a pair of pitbulls.

That's then point we're making: YES IT DOES. Your arm is composed of muscle, tendons, and bone. Muscle and tendon can be cut/disrupted with as little as 5 (five) pounds per square inch of bite force. Bone crushes at 9 (nine) pounds per square inch. Dogs bite with HUNDREDS OF POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH. Notice the difference: at less than TEN pounds per square inch the animal can break bone. What do you think FIVE HUNDRED POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH is going to do?

So yes, the wrong dog can take your arm off. The wrong dog can take your -leg- off at the hip.

While it's trying to remove your other arm. Right.

Which are very sharp, very strong, and driven by a bite force of several HUNDRED pounds per square inch.

None of which work very well against a pissed-off large dog.

HAH! You're funny.

You -do- realise, don't you, that you can exanguinate (bleed to death) in less than 90 seconds from a cut/punctured femoral artery, right? That's the big one in your thigh. The main pipes on your arms might let you last as long as three minutes. Ask one of our combat vets here (got plenty) how long it takes somebody to bleed out with a shredded wrist.

Intelligence, maybe. You do not have the strength to strangle a pissed-off Pitbull. Nevermind the fact that, as you're strangling it, it's still chewing on you.

Good thing all the Police Departments went to Siamese Attack Cats, then, isn't it?

Pure, unmitigated, unmistakable nonsense. Dogs kill adults all the time, several dozen times per year in the US.

Have you ever had a large dog, SF? Have you ever even playfully wrestled with one? Because you're showing about as much knowledge about dogs as you've shown in the past about guns, bears, and women.

That's the thing, it WOULD be able to get at your throat and/or face in barely the time it'd take you to blink an eye.

No offense, but your entire line of reasoning in this thread (if you are actually serious and not just being sarcastic for the fun of arguing) is rediculous and shows a huge lack of real knowledge or interaction with larger aggressive breeds of dogs.

The best thing pit bulls have going for them is that they are actually very rarely human aggressive. Their true instinct is to be animal aggressive.

Anyone else starting to think SF might have one of those skulls too?

Just remember something else: The locking-jaws thing is a myth. There's no biological means for that to occur except sheer determination, and even then it's more likely that they would bite, thrash, and then rebite. Your arm's going to be shredded to ribbons inside of 20 seconds.

Yeah, troll'd. My bad.

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-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+- The rules against flaming apply here folks. As do the rules against trolling. Debate the subject, not each other. And please don't post stuff that's just going to get the other side worked into a lather immediately. OK?

1 - I cant run at 40 MPH. Thats fine for me. I dont think I can outrun a dog, and if he runs off I wont chase him, It doesnt matter if he survives as long as he leaves me alone - Ive no desire to "finish him"

2 - Lifting at bite pressure are rather different things. I have no idea if I can lift 400 lbs, but I probably could with my whole body I guess. But a dog weighs 120 lbs, and I am pretty sure I can lift 120 lbs. I weigh 300 lbs, I am pretty sure a dog cant lift me. So in fact while I am strong enough to man handle a dog, to shove it about, to pick it up over my head and throw it into a wall,etc The dog can bite me and thats the only offensive weapon he has.

3 - No, I cant lick my own arse. Nor do I have any wish to. If the essence of the dogs tactical strength is some genetic memory of hunting a big breed of cow thats been extinct 4000 years, and the ability to lick its own arse - compare that the human beings capacity for violence and destruction.

Mankind who can make guns, missiles, tanks, etc vs a dog who is by nature subserviant, who's only "fighting intelligence" is based on rudimentary training to bite people, or a genetic memory of pack hunting.

__

The stuff about bite pressure is also misleading, The dog wouldnt be biting me on a 1 square inch point. He would be biting on my entire arm - which would likely be being rammed into his throat at the time. Yes he could break my skin, bruise me - but I think it is very unlikely he has the strength to bite through my arm or break a bone. It would take him 3 hours to chew one of the bones in my arm in half

_

I really dont get how any can argue that if two creatures fight - it is likely that the smaller, weaker, less intelligent, less aggressive creature will win. A pack of dogs might take down a man if they are desperate and starving. A single dog has very little chance.

And on top of everything else, consider my ability to use weapons which the dog does not have.

Whether its the car keys jammed into the eyeball, a club, a knife, a belt made into a makeshift noose, a sharp stone - there are 1000's of potential weapons I could make use of in a real environment.

In fact - I would say that my superiority (and I am an average man, heavier than most, but not especially strong or skilled in combat) that it is unlikely that I would even need to kill the dog. I would probably only need to administer a sound thrashing and the dog would retreat.

In the scenario someone mentioned of two pitbulls attacking it might be more dangerous, and it probably would be necessary to kill at least one dog - because if you allowed them to gang up on you would would be at risk.

I think the last thing you'd be able to do to an attacking dog is pick it up over your head. We're talking about an aggressive animal with the musculature to run 40 mph and the flexibility to lick its own ass after all.

I think the most you'd be able to do is fend it off until it decides it's not going to win. At best, in most situations, this might include punching and kicking and hoping you won't need too many stitches when you're done. In the worst-case scenario, stitches would be a blessing.

Sometimes, intelligence only gets you so far in the animal world.

Dear Strange,

Where did you learn that dogs, 'by nature' are subserviant?
Dogs by nature are predators. (and scavengers)

Domesticated dogs are not that far removed from their 'nature.'

Try fighting an agile venomous snake, and see who wins.

Size is not on your side this time, Strange. Not to mention speed/reaction time
& agility.

Please do some reading. Even a small dog can cause serious injuries. Sheesh this is frustrating.

look if he's so convinced he can take down a dog I say we let him try. It's a win-win situation.

A "win win situation" is a pretty funny way to look at it

Why would you see it as a "win" for some dumb animal to be beaten and maybe killed? I wouldnt fight a dog unless it was in defence of myself or another human. And there is nothing special about me, I couldnt handle a pitbull any different to an average grown man who is relatively strong and fit.

So how does the dog's jaw (which is made of bone) withstand those hundreds of pounds of pressure it's exerting? How do the dog's teeth withstand over two orders of magnitude more pressure than bone? Not that I agree with SF's assessment, but I think your numbers are a bit exaggerated.

Yeah, the numbers seem a little wonky.

I can't believe I missed another thread where SF told us how easy it would be to do something he's got no idea about.. wasn't the last one bears?

I saw a special on the discovery channel once that alligators put out 500 pounds per square inch of biting power with their jaws. Even if it's half of that, a dog's bite would be powerful enough to rip your leg/arm apart. I think it's less of how much pressure it is and how the teeth work to rip your skin/muscles apart.

Because it was a bad estimate, you can find some actual numbers here.

Consider though that humans are quite easily capable of biting sizeable chunks out of each other with a mere 120lbs of force, even a mere 2-3x that with teeth designed for killing and eating animals in the wild will be... bad.... to say the least.

There was also this study: Measurement of bite force in dogs: a pilot study. [J Vet Dent. 1995] - PubMed result

"A force transducer was developed to measure bite force in dogs. A total of 101 readings was obtained from 22 pet dogs ranging in size from 7 to 55 kg. Bite forces ranged from 13 to 1394 Newtons with a mean for all dogs of 256 Newtons and a median of 163 Newtons. Most measurements fell within the low end of the range, with 55% of the biting episodes less than 200 Newtons and 77% less than 400 Newtons."

1394 Nm is 313.38 pounds, at the top end (in this study).

SF,

I am 99% sure you are trolling, but I will play along.

Until fairly recently, I made my living as an Army working dog handler. I have trained dogs to bite, released them on people and have been bitten myself. I don't like it when people play the "credentials" game, though I feel that sharing mine would help to validate what most everyone else has said.


The only guaranteed instant kill shots require a direct hit to the CNS. Good luck with that.

The dog will most likely bite whatever is closest and most readily available to get its prey immobilized or at least knocked to the ground. They then usually release the bite and go for the face/neck. It's a hunting tactic that has worked for them in the wild since the Pleistocene.

You are correct that a dog could not bite your arm off in a single go, though it is more than capable of tearing tendons, ripping flesh from bone, breaking your arm and dislocating your shoulder. I know its anecdotal, but I have personally witnessed all of these things happen from dog bites.

Good luck with that. Watch a dog bite and you will see it lower its ass (center of gravity) and pull with its legs, pop its hips and make violent twisting motions with its neck to both cause immense physical damage and pull you off balance. If you are still standing after the initial hit, you won't be for long.

You may have the "intelligence" to go for the throat (just like a dog) but you have to remember that dogs are a product of millions of years of combat. Their necks are the strongest muscles on their body so a short punch or kick wont do shit. Their bones are both flexible and strong so you will not be able to twist it (even if they held still long enough for you to try). Going for the eyes is largely ineffective. They are small, moving targets. On the off chance that you manage to poke one, or even gouge one out, the dog will continue to fight. They do not feel pain like you and I do; they will keep fighting @ 100% until they are physically broken or dead.

[citation needed]

Dunedan may have exaggerated a little bit, though a dog bite is no joke. Dogs can exert tremendous levels of pressure (several hundred pounds) b/c their bones and teeth are exceptionally dense due to millions of years of evolution...not unlike a shark is able to exert thousands of pounds of force with cartilage and teeth.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Below is a good representation of the ways different dogs attack. Feel free to point out exactly when/where the decoy (the guy in the bite suit) has the opportunity to grab and split the dogs hind legs.

Thanks awfully, boy do I feel embarrassed! Sorry for the incorrect info, folks.

When an animal's jaw closes around a bone, the force is distributed from a large surface area (the teeth and jaws) down to a smaller surface area on the cutting edges of the teeth. This has the effect of spreading the bite force out over the architecture of the jaw in the biting animal, while in the -bitten- animal all that force is instead focused onto the receiving surface via the cutting edges of the biter's teeth. It's all about sectional density; the same way you don't have to push very hard to apply a few dozen pounds per square inch, a dog doesn't have to push very hard to produce two hundred. Pointed or edged teeth translate that few pounds of force (applied to the tooth by the several square inches of your jaw) into multiples of that number of pounds of force applied to the target object by the much smaller-in-area contact surfaces of the teeth, the number depending upon how sharp the cutting edges are. Remember, even with less and a third of the average bite strength of a dog, we humans still tear our way through lots of meat. And we're made of meat too.

I'm sure the trainer would call him off before he killed you :lol:












....too far? Come one, he left himself wide open!

I was wondering who would take that tasty bait.

Strange has a good sense of humor. I don't think he'll be offended.

All these people carry on like dogs won the evolutionary battle, not humans.

Imagine the biggest, strongest dog you can on a leash... pulling against a normal man he will go nowhere, and be led by the man.

A fully grown man is stronger than a dog, that is undeniable.

A normal man is more intelligent than a dog, that is undeniable. A dog does not have the intelligence to use a weapon, a man does.

_

In a real life situation - without police with guns to back the dog up - if a police dog was set lose on its own against the average criminal, the dog would be killed.

_

Like I said, I dont want to fight a pitbull for fun, and I have no doubt a pitbull could hurt me.... but if it came to it, the dog would die, not me. The simple mechanics that I weigh over twice as much, am physically stronger, am capable of greater depths of aggression and more intelligent methods of combat will doom the dog. Just as I would be if I tried to attack a 600 lbs Polar bear in a straight physical fight. I am not arrogant enough to think I can man handle a creature twice as strong as me, yet some people seem to imagine these dogs are arrogant enough to want to attack me and think they would win.

Strange,

We won the "evolutionary battle" over alligators, crocodiles, tigers, lions, and bears...

...but they'd still fuck us up one-on-one.

...

As I write this, I've got a pitbull sitting next to me. He's cuddly. If he was pissed at me... I'd be afraid for my life.

He might not kill me, but he'd certainly give me a run for my evolutionary money.

Fanciful, uninformed, ignorant bullshit. Try that with a German Shepherd or Czechoslovakian Vlcak sometime, all 300 pounds of you. Once the road-rash heals, come back and report.

It is deniable, and it -has been- denied, a few posts back, by a person who until recently made his living working with dogs. Walt is very nearly your weight (all muscle and hair), and was paid by the US Army to train and use German Shepherds. -He- is the one in this conversation who knows what he's talking about, so I'd listen to him before spouting this nonsense.

Interesting. Got any proof this has ever happened? Anywhere? Anything to back up your assertion other than uninformed opinion? C'mon, gimme one: a Police dog turned loose against an "average" or even a decidedly "above average" crim and killed. If you can find me five instances at all, I'll be amazed. If you can find one where a criminal killed the K9 without the use of a firearm, next time I transit to Prague through England your next trip to Stringfellows is on me; drinks and everything.

Then I'm sure you can find lots of instances of people killing Pitbulls when attacked. Please do. Please post them here.

No debate here. Bullshit. Bullshit. Debatable. Bullshit.

Dogs are not arrogant. They are highly-evolved, indeed artificially-evolved with the help of human's superior intelligence, superpredators. Pound-for-pound they are among the strongest animals on the planet. Let's see you and four friends of similar size pull a sled that weighs as much as the five of you together at 15mph. Let's see y'all pull that sled -at all-. Now consider the Iditarod, and the fact that Inuit and other First Nations folks have been using dogs about the size of a Pittbull to haul walrusses and hunks of whale around for a few thousand years.

Again, if your points were in any way valid, you'd be able to come up with some examples to support them. You apparently cannot. If you -can- find such an example, please present it for consideration. Otherwise, your arguments remain the uninformed opinion of a person with no professional training or education of any kind in the field under discussion.

Evolution isn't even a battle; it's an outcome of traits based on environmental/situational pressures. Dogs just happen to be well-suited to fighting without the use of tools. Humans? Not so much. We're rather tender and blunt around the edges.

This Irish wolfhound begs to differ.

http://imgs.sfgate.com/blogs/images/...ankBrendan.JPG

Do not underestimate....

I could post video's of strong man contests with guys pulling trucks...

In a tug of war, a man will beat a dog every time.

Dogs cant pull HGV's can they?

__

On fight skill, the ability for a human to use a weapon places it above a dog without any further debate

__

On aggression, surely you could not claim that any beast can match the human beings capacity for violence? A dog may attack when provoked or when triggered by instinct. A man can run away, get a gun, and come and shoot the dog when he is peacefully resting, he might see the dog a year later and shoot it. Nothing comes close to man in terms of capacity for aggressive and violent action.

---------- Post added at 04:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

oh, and btw - a quick search on google showed me several links estimating that approx 9 million dogs are killed each year in the USA alone.

Furthermore it is estimated 145 humans have been killed by pitbulls in the last 10 years, and 200 pitbulls are killed by humans every day in Los Angeles alone...

And those men are anomalies, "outliers" in statistical jargon. They do not represent the average. We are dealing with average representatives of each species. The average dog is -much- stronger than the average human, period. Please refer again to the large gentleman with the professional career handling these creatures.

Bullshit. Citation needed, or this is simply bullshit. I'd -love- to see you win (or even seriously contest) a tug-of-war with a dog even half your weight.

They can and do. Have you ever seen how sled-dogs train in the off-season? By pulling automobiles and loaded farm wagons.

Bullshit. If this was the case, no military in the world would use dogs, and armed men never would have been killed by them, which has happened repeatedly in history. Look up Hernando deSoto's Iberian War Dogs (and the carnage they inflicted in the New World) sometime. Likewise the Roman army's use of attack dogs in the Gallic Wars, etc.

Killed for livestock predation or euthanized by Animal shelters. NOT killed in the course of attacking people.

The people killed by Pitbulls were killed by attacking dogs (uncontrolled environment). The 200/day are killed in animal shelters (controlled environment). There is a significant difference.

Yes, the difference between a dumb animal the apex predator of the earth!

There's no way you can possibly be serious. If you truly cannot grasp the difference between an unrestrained dog killing a human with its' teeth in a fight (analagous to combat), and a group of humans killing a restrained dog in a controlled setting through the use of poisonous chemicals (analagous to an execution), you are simply beyond help, and should demand a refund of all the money spent on your education, as it has simply been wasted.

I dont deny there is a difference. And that difference is why humanity wins, and wild animals lose. Everything is on our side, because all nature exists in the society of our creation and control.

A dog can attack me with his teeth, and even if he was to beat me and kill me (which we already have stated is highly unlikely) he would be hunted down, and my fellow humans would avenge me, catch the dog and leave him locked in a cage, and poisoned until dead.

__

But we cannot but come back to the central points

This whole thread started with a claim that some breeds of dog can survive a gunshot from a handgun to the top of their head, as they have thick skulls.

I accepted this, but have pointed out that in any case, while dogs may attack children, women, and elderly men in a very cowardly way - they will not attack grown men in their natural state. The only dog that will attack a fully grown man is one who is desperate with starvation, or who has been trained to do so by other men who have perverted the dogs natural instincts (that of a pack predator who will not take on a stronger creature one on one)

The dog is in fact naturally inclined to be subserviant to a stronger member of the pack. If a dog attacked me, and due to my superior weight and strength I was able to throw the dog about and subdue him with heavy blows - the dog would be cowed and become timid. If the dog was in fact insane and continued to attack it would probably be killed.

A dog can only kill me by biting me - one attack method from one angle - which would only be fatal if he ripped my throat out or was able to cause significant wounds that caused me to lose too much blood. If I am actively resisting - the dog will not have that chance.

I can kill a dog in literally a million ways. Almost any object could be a weapon. I understand trickery, tactics, use of weapons.

I am twice the size of the dog, and in terms of sheer brute force twice as strong.

(these video's of dogs pulling 1 tonne of weight are not impressive when the weight is on wheels! I easily can push a car, which ways 3 tonnes - this is also on wheels.)

_

This isnt about boasting or macho behaviour, just simple common sense. I dont claim I have an special powers. I just am stating that a fully grown man is stronger than a dog. The numbers of people killed in dog attacks is under 100 a year in the US I am sure. Far more dogs are killed by humans, not in dog pounds or puppy mills, but with brute violence.

I could pull that 1 tonne trolley on well lubricated wheels with my cock in fact.

Dogs may be faster than people, but they arent stronger. Amundsen used dogs to pull him to the South Pole and back, but most of the dogs didnt survive. Now, Captain Scott isnt a good example, but now many people have in fact man hauled to the South Pole and back without dying - and with far fewer humans pulling those weights than a dog team.

Your entire contribution to this thread has been nothing -but- boasting and machismo. That's why everybody's so annoyed; this endless chest-pounding by a person who obviously and stubbornly has no idea what he's talking about. The "Common sense" herein has been contributed by numerous people, one of whom makes his living working with dogs, refuting your boastful, unsupported, macho bullshit. "I can kill a Pitbull by ripping it's jaws apart or breaking its' back by attacking a totally different part of its' body." Macho bullshit.

You've claimed the power to kill a Pitbull in a hand-to-hand fight. That's a pretty Goddamned special power.

And you are, here's the important part, WRONG.

Unless by "brute violence" you are referring to;
1: At extended range, with a firearm, or
2: Puppies or small dogs beaten/kicked to death,
...neither of which is within the scope of this discussion, you are simply wrong. Incorrect. Full of BS. Our discussing revolves around combat between humans and medium-large dogs and I assure you, very -VERY- few of those types of animals are ever beaten to death by humans, and certainly not in the context of that human being attacked by the dog in question. I challenge and defy you to provide even -one- case of this happening, anywhere in the world, in the past 5 years.

Please do, you'll do the species a favour.

Because the dogs starved to death or died of exposure! Strength had nothing to do with it!

And those humans were pulling less weight (lighter modern kit, better en-route resupply, freeze-dried food) over shorter distances. Apples and oranges. Seriously, learn how to make meaningful comparisons. Comparing the strength needed to pull a 1500-3,000lb dogsled to the strength needed to pull a 500-700lb ski-sled is just not viable. This isn't even apples and oranges; it's apples and bowling balls.

Matt England Beat His Pitbull to Death After it Ran Away, Say Witnesses - True Crime Report

You only have to search google and you can find many stories

Beating *A* pitbull to death and beating *your* pitbull to death are two totally different things.

And you had only to search Google to find a single source after all these requests. You made the claims, proving them is/was your job.

I hereby acknowledge that you have found one story to back up your claim. However;

1: We do not know, and the article does not state, the age of the dogs. I am inclined to believe these were puppies, but am open to the facts being otherwise.
2: This is a single instance. Useful for proof of concept (that a human can potentially beat a Pitbull to death) but irrelevant beyond that, since it represents only a single datum.
3: Due to (2), this does not support your claims regarding the ease and universal possibility/likelihood of such an event.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Devon | Man kills attack dog with knife

A vicious dog cowardly attacks a woman. A man goes into his house, gets two knives, and stabs dog to death.

and another similar story

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...aughter-two.do

From your first link (my commentary in bold):

So far, this link does nothing to bolster your claims. Three men were unable to win a tug-of-war with one dog, thus disproving your claim that a grown man is always stronger than a dog. Three grown men were weaker than this dog. Furthermore, the dog in question had to be dispatched with the use of two large knives, which a person -being attacked- will probably not be able to access. Furthermore, this is a far cry from your claim of being able to kill a dog with your bare hands, and especially far from the farcical ideas of killing it by ripping the jaws apart or forcing it into a split. Sources only help your case if they actually prove your points.

I didnt recomend the jaw move, I recomended ripping the hind legs apart. If I was on the scene when that lady was attacked I could have done that dog over like that and maybe she wouldnt have had to go to hospital...

Bullshit.

Utter, rank, stinking macho bullshit.

Look, Strange, go turn on Animal Planet or whatever the BBC equivalent is. Use YouTube if you must. Look up one of the numerous programmes they show under various iterations of "Animal Cops" or the like. Now think: if the sorts of things you've been saying and suggesting -actually- work, why are the trained Policemen, Animal Control officers, and Shelter workers having to struggle so hard with these creatures? Why does it sometimes take two strong men with a catch-pole to get control of a Pitbull bitch, nevermind a Rottweiler, German Shepherd, Pyrenees, etc? Why don't they just grab her up somehow? After all, they're grown men and she's just a little 60lb bitch, right?

Here's a video of a 55lb Pitbull bitch attacking an experienced Animal Control officer after having mauled a grown man and his young daughter, coming within an inch of killing the father. Bear in mind that the injuries suffered by the Animal Control officer (who had a catchpole in hand when the dog attacked) more than corroborate the ability of this particular 55lb female to have killed the father (a grown man) had she simply bitten his neck in a slightly different place.


Instance of a Pitbull mauling a person nearly to death and causing the loss of an arm after sever injuries to all extremeties. Bear in mind this is the second instance in which a dog has been reported as biting chunks out of people in the course of an attack. Do you seriously think you're going to be able to even attempt the kinds of things you propose while an animal such as this is crushing your hand, puncturing and cutting your pecs, and physically ripping chunks out of you?


Just do yourself a favour and look at what the professionals, people who deal with these critters on a daily basis, do. Take a good long watch, and observe how they control these animals, and how difficult it can be. Then ask yourself why they don't do what you suggest. Granted, they're not trying to kill the animals; but if killing them with all our alleged superiority is so easy, why is -catching- them not similarly simple? After all, we're HUMANS; shouldn't we be able to just take them under our arms like geese, or hold them down and inject a tranquiliser or something? Why all the violence, why all the struggle, whence all the difficulty? They're just dogs, after all. Cowards at heart, naturally subservient, physically weaker and intellectually inferior, right? I mean, these are the -pros-! If -anybody- should be making this look like a piece of cake, it should be these folks, right? Specially trained, lots of experience, frequently large burly men or simply packs of Officers with catchpoles and nets and sometimes firearms drawn. Should be easy, right? That Policeman in Vid #2 was an experienced combat veteran, a powerfully built man, and before doing anything "the decision was made to destroy the animal" which means he shot the dog, probably several times to make sure, in the head and from the far side of the fence. If he had half a brain (which he would have needed to survive combat) he put another round in the head to make sure when he got close enough to pick which eye-socket he wanted. Why all the fuss?

Edited to add:

Here's another fun one: what appears to be a Staffordshire Terrier having a go at the bumper of a Police car. Let's see you (or virtually anyone else here or anywhere; I know I certainly couldn't do it and I cut firewood all year) do this kind of damage, this quickly, with your allegedly ever so much more powerful hands and arms. This should give you some idea of the strength of a dog's neck and jaws. I guess you could say that this is what happens when a dog who chases cars finally catches one sleeping.

I could post video's of human beings killing pitbulls - but as you already stated ancedotes arent the same as evidence. Neither video loaded very well for me, just kept buffering p but the second one seems to just be some people talking about a dog attack on a WOMAN, and the first video the victim also appears to be female.

The sex of the victims is irrelevant. What matters is that;

1: In Vid #1, the victim was an experienced Animal Control officer, trained and equipped to deal with viscous animals, and she was still savaged by the dog in question. Likewise, the same dog had also mauled a grown man and his daughter immediately prior to the attack on the Animal Control officer, which is why Animal Control was called in the first place. The sex of the Animal Control officer is irrelevant; what matters is that her training and equipment should have, according to your line of reasoning, rendered the task of apprehending and controlling a mere 55lb dog simple. After all; she (the Officer) is a human, no? She's not as strong as a man, but surely she'd be strong enough, smart enough, superior enough, to handle a 55lb-er, right? Or is she by default a totally incompetent weakling because of her sex?

2: Vids #2 and #3 are in direct refutation of your assertions regarding the amount of damage these animals can do. Man or woman, human flesh is human flesh, and the dog in question literally -did- take someones arm off, and -did- take chunks out of them, two things which you insisted repeatedly were impossible. Vid #2 also shows that even trained combat veterans, in this case a powerfully-built Policeman armed with a firearm, nightstick, and probably a Tazer-gun, take great precautions with these animals. This forces me to wonder why, if killing one of these animals is so simple and capturing them probably equally so, didn't this big, strong Policeman use your methods and line of reasoning? Why the worry, why the fuss, why the gunfire? After all, he's HUMAN, and a grown MANLY MAN at that! He's stronger, smarter, more agile and more ferocious than the dog, right? And the dog's just a dumb, slow, weak, naturally-subservient coward, right? And then, of course, there's the simple sight of watching a dog literally rip chunks out of a car. Funny thing; that dog doesn't seem terribly cowardly or subservient as he's ripping that bumper off, just pissed.

As I understand she lost her arm due to injuries caused, the dog didnt bite it off, it had to be amputated I guess.

And again, one off examples dont prove a case. If some people are intimidated by the dogs aggression and dont fight back likely they will be hurt.

I guarantee you, if I was armed with a stout wooden pole, a 55 lbs dog wouldnt get the better of me.

As for the fact a dog can destroy a car, so can I or any human being. I am sure I would do it in a much more measured and efficient way. All the dogs did was bit the front bumper. All the cop had to do was put his foot down and accelerate and the dogs wouldnt be a problem anymore.

I reset my connection and watched the attack video - in fact what happens is:

when the man strikes the dog with a stick it runs off, comes back to have another go when the owner encourages it, is struck again in the back and runs off again... the black woman who is attacked is clearly is impeded from defending herself by the intervention of the owner. If the fat woman had NOT been there to block the man with the bat the dog would have been beaten to death very easily.

You know what? I don't even know why I'm having this discussion. You've been presented with multiple evidences of your error. You've been told, by a person who specializes in the area upon which you're pontificating, of your error, in some detail. You've been asked multiple times why, if your suggestions and appreciation of such situations is accurate, professionals in the field don't adopt it: you have been unable to answer. We have a professional here for you to consult, in fact, on this question: before you do, however, I'd review his earlier contribution (including video). You've also been asked if you have any experience living or working with large dogs; another question you've declined to answer. You've been presented with every opportunity to replace your ignorance with knowledge, and have simply refused to do so. If I found out I was wrong about some point of shooting, and had the chance to consult Rob Leatham or a Marine Scout Sniper or an SAS paratrooper in order to receive expert correction, I'd bloody well take it. You, on the other hand, in dealing with something that can be just as dangerous as a firearm, have not only refused but have been hostile to the expertise of someone who is highly trained in its' use. If you can't be bothered to listen to people who make their livings working with the thing you insist upon going on about, you deserve whatever happens when you try this crap for real. I just hope to God that your ridiculous ideas don't get someone else killed.

Sorry, can we just actually go back to the three video's you posted

1 - a dog biting a woman and then running away after being hit twice in the back with a bat

2 - someone talking about a dog attack where we cant see what happens

3 - a pair of dogs taking about a minute to dismantle a bumper. You are quite right that neither you or me would be able to bite the bumper off a police car. That isnt the point. As human beings either you or me could kick the thing and then lever it off in 20 seconds - and thats the point

If you compare humans to dogs on the criteria of what a dog does (like how fast it can run, how hard it can bite) - no surprise a dog is better at being a dog than a human

If you base your comments on reality and common sense - you know a dog, while they can hurt people, while they can kill young or vulnerable humans, a human being is stronger than a dog and would beat a dog in a fight.

Just look at the video with the woman who is bitten. As the dog charges she moves backwards, almost cowers. She should have launched a hefty kick into the dogs face and it would have run straight off. Because of her job maybe she didnt want to hurt the dog, but if it had been a no limits fight she would have done so.

No, we can't. Those videos were posted as corollary to two specific questions which you have refused to answer. Please answer them directly, or I am finished with this discussion, since you refuse to discuss this issue in an intellectually-honest manner.

Question 1: If your understanding of these issues reflects reality, why do professionals (Animal Control officers, Police, Trainers, etc), the people who deal with dangerous dogs on a daily and ongoing basis, not adopt it? If your assertions are correct, why do those people most properly trained and equipped to adopt and implement them not do so?

Question 2: Do you have any personal experience handling large dogs? Do you have any personal experience with hunting, working, or attack/security dogs?
Question 2a: If not, what is the source of your information regarding dog behavior and strength? If you do not have personal experience, please provide some relevant sources supporting your position.

1 - because they dont want to kill the dogs, by definition of their jobs they are not supposed to or allowed to use maximum violence against the beats

2 - not especially
2a - common sense and the observation of reality. I dont need to be an astronaut to know that the moon goes round the earth. I dont need to be a dog handler to know that a 200 lbs human being is stronger than a 100 lbs dog.

Final attempt. For clarification:

Question 1; Restated: If, as you contend, humans are so vastly superior in every way to dogs, why is it not equally simple to capture them? If your understanding is correct, why does it not render the capture of such an animal a simple matter? You contend that dogs are by nature cowardly and subservient; why does this not make their capture easy? You contend that humans are so vastly superior that killing a dog built and bred for combat is a simple matter easily attempted even by a person who admits to having no experience with such. Why is capturing them not an equally negligible proposition? And if -anyone- could/should be trained to exploit such disparities, it would be the professionals: why then do they not bear out your positions?

Yes or no? I'll take this as a "no."

However, you refuse to listen when an actual dog handler, a Military Policeman with extensive experience working with these animals, tells you that a 100lb dog is stronger than a 300lb man. He has experience working with these animals in a professional capacity; you have no personal or professional experience in this regard (per above). This refusal calls your common sense and observational abilities seriously into question. This suggests rather strongly that the reason the pros haven't adopted your understanding is that your understanding is nonsense.

Now, please provide some sources for your assertions that don't revolve around insisting that we place your unsupported layman's opinion over the supported opinion of a professional.

You keep making reference to your 300 lbs as if sheer mass is somehow the determining factor. This is what 75 lbs of functional muscle looks like:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...livangetty.jpg

This is what 300 lbs of Strange Famous looks like:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/attachm...-right-now.jpg


And a bag of Doritos, apparently: ----------------------------------------------------------------

Video of what SF armed with a stout wooden pole may look like:

If the best you can do in countering my arguments is making fun of my weight, I think its a pretty good sign youve already lost the argument.

You, staying true to form, made an outlandish claim that was no doubt formed from playing Call of Duty and reading your mail-order super secret SAS hand-to-hand fighting manual. When the error of your statement was pointed out, you chose to ignore the experienced professionals and continued to spew nonsensical macho bullshit (again, staying true to form). You habitually speak with authority on things you know nothing about. While that may impress the 12 year old neighborhood kids, it doesn't fly here. There was never any argument to lose.

Your considerable weight and general level of physical fitness became fair game when you made repeated references to them in an attempt to support your "argument" and chest thumping. While you may think that sheer mass is somehow going to win the day, my professional opinion as a military working dog handler is that your obesity and general lack of aerobic/anaerobic fitness might not help as much as you seem to think they would.

And a video of a camp fat man playing at being a star wars character is supposed to illustrate your point is it?

I think the opinion of anyone who see's your comment is that is cheap, pointless, nasty, and the fallback of someone who has nothing sensible or rational to add.

The fact I couldnt run a mile in under 8 minutes (which is what the thread you quote was about) might make me unfit, and I could hardly deny I am fat - but I would judge I have an at least average ability to fight.

In fact in several posts I stated quite clearly I did not claim to be especially strong or skilled - that I was judging myself and my abilities in line with an average man.

You claim that your experience in working with dogs gives your words more gravitas than mine - which in itself strikes me as quite arrogant. But its a shame that with all the knowledge you apparently have on the subject you can do no better than childish insults such as those above.

Don't fucking speak for me.

I would judge that you are not in good enough shape to have an average ability to fight.

But you are in below average shape.

He has training specific to the subject we are discussing. His words DO have more gravitas than yours.

Dude, seriously you have no idea wtf you're talking about. Until you gain some experience w/ large dogs, you really have no clue.

Nevermind. This is getting silly.

Wait, claiming that doing something professionally makes someone more qualified to speak on that subject is arrogant?

Wow. This thread is more awkward than the female dancers in that Robert Palmer "Simply Irresistible" music video.

1 - I speak only for sensible people
2 - I think I am above getting into an argument with some guy online about whether I can fight or not. It doesnt actually have any impact on what I am saying, because I am talking about what an average person can do.
3 - I am making sensible arguments, backed up with logic and common sense. He is posting pictures of fat teenagers playing at being a star wars Jedi and saying "look at this fat and silly looking guy, thats you that is".

If that's youre idea of "gravitas" then I think I cant help you or enlighten you with my statements... I thought that stuff was funny when I was 14 and Newman and Baddiel used to do that joke.

In what reality? You've -yet- to make a "sensible" post in Tilted Weaponry. Anywhere. Ever.

Which you are in no position to judge.

Not even remotely. If you -were- making sensible arguments, backed up with logic and common sense, would the professionals (like Walt) be on your side, or telling you that you're wrong? Think very carefully.

"Gravitas" was the reasonable and measured reply Walt gave (with video) on the last page. "Gravitas" was what you got when Walt was being polite enough to assume you'd at least take his profession, training, and experience into account. This, on the other hand, is the kind of reply you can expect to start getting when you continue to demand that other people take your recommendations (these based upon highly suspect "common sense" and observations) over those of a trained professional with years of experience.

And as for your statements "enlightening" anyone...puhLEEZE. The only "enlightenment" that's gone down in this thread is various people attempting to enlighten you, only to be reminded that one cannot enlighten the willfully, stubbornly, obstinately and proudly ignorant and unenlightenable. Despite your total lack of relevant training or experience (even on a social, nevermind professional level) with large dogs, despite the fact that you've been totally unable to come up with any workable support for your outlandish claims and suggestions, you expect other people to listen to you and your chest-thumping macho crap? And you expect other people to put this uninformed, uneducated, patently ridiculous blather above the opinions of a trained professional?

What, do you instruct your doctor on how to perform surgery as well? Policemen on how to find criminals? Snipers on how to shoot? Would you walk up to Michael Schumacher or Danica Patrick and start instructing them on how to drive? Or Peter Crouch on football? Because that's what you've been doing: positing that you know more about a given subject than a person trained in that subject who worked in that field for many years for a very demanding employer: this despite admitting to having -zero- experience, training, or even social screwing-around to back up your positions, positions which the -actual- professionals have informed you are unworkable and dangerous nonsense at best. Funnier yet, you've been demanding until you're all but blue in the face that -other- people, who have various degrees of experience themselves, take your word over that of the professional, in spite of the fact that every single one of these people, Pros and Joes, has been telling you that your "ideas" jive neither with reality, nor with their individual experiences, nor with anything they've ever heard from anybody with half a brain.

I don't know about you all, but I feel like this thread's run it's course...

What do you expect from me, that I should go and beat up a pit bull terrier to prove my point?

No, Strange.

I expect you to stick to writing poetry. It's excellent writing.

You know about writing. You don't know a thing, about this subject.

I second the motion,
it's time to lock up this beast.

After making the claims you have, considering how frankly outlandish they are, that would be a good idea. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs. That or realize that your claims might not be as accurate as you'd like to think, and take into consideration the opinions of others (especially trained/experienced professionals) before investing so much effort into the defense of the indefensible.

Best of all, of course, would be for you to -stop- pontificating upon matters in which you have no knowledge or experience. Ask opinions. Ask about experiences. Ask for sources. Hell, ask for directions. But don't come up to me (or anyone else) and tell me (or them) you know my/their job better than I/they do when you've never even attempted (much less succeeded) to carry it out.

That said, I'm done. Lock this thread or do whatever. I've said my piece.

No, it just need more pictures and some '80s pop music.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/citylif...4171795815.jpg


http://www.innocentenglish.com/funny...rier-puppy.jpg

http://assets.comcorpusa.com/nbc33tv...ll_mauling.gif

CHA... CHING.

All this stuff about experience might be relevant if we were talking about something like brain surgery. But we are talking about dogs. In my life I have had enough opportunity to interact with dogs to form an opinion. My dad has a pet German Shepherd, with I would guess is about 75 lbs... sometimes jumps on you and wants to wrestle and play fight, and in those times it is not hard to measure your strength against the others and know if you are stronger or not.

SF: Yea, just like tossing a shell casing around in your hands lets you measure the force of a bullet on impact.

I'm rather disappointed now at how many people have fallen for this obvious troll.

I know the desire to educate is strong, and I myself fall for it... but this is pushing the limit of ignorance, you *have* to know at this point it is largely feigned.

If not, then it's a lost cause.

Either way, stop feeding the trolls.

I'd say SF won't get it through his skull until he's actually attacked by an angry dog, but even then he'd blame it on something like the sun being in his eyes.

...what if the dog has been on a diet of black powder and given PowerAde before the bout?

What about motor oil?

Sorry to bump an old thread guys but I couldn't let this comment go without posting a reply. I actually found this page while googling a story about a 9 year old choking a "pissed-off" pitbull after it attacked one of his friends. (The 9 year old learned how to apply the choke in a bjj class.)

As it has already been said, most pitbull victims are children, seniors or other dogs. Keep in mind the average adult has no idea how to apply a proper choke hold, but with the right technique the average joe on this site can strangle a pitbull and there are ways of testing this without either the human or the pitbull getting seriously hurt. If you have an aggressive pitbull, muzzle it and apply a rear naked choke to it's neck. (The RNC is the best choke to use on a pitbull because it immobilizes their jerky movements.) Agitate the dog beforehand if you wish. If the dog bucks you off, theory destroyed. If the dog cannot physically escape from your grip, you'll know it because you'll basically have the leverage to pick him up off the ground. At that point your question will have been answered about whether a human can strangle a pitbull and at that point it would be time to let go of the hold.

The muzzle, btw, is only used for protection. It is not relevant to the central point of whether a human can or cannot strangle a pitbull so please don't bring it up as an excuse for your argument being legit because I assure you, it's not.

I'm not going to dignify that with a response except to point back up the thread to Walt's contributions.

Walt, in case you missed it, is a US Army Dog Handler by trade, training, and long experience. He says you, and Strange Famous, are wrong. I'll take his opinion over that of someone agreeing with Strange Famous.

First of all, there's no "[me] and strange famous".
There's me, with real examples of how the RNC has worked in real confrontations with pitbulls (google 9 year old boy/jonathan goulet/ralph gracie), and then there's strange famous with his admittedly strange methods of fighting/taming a pitbull. (grabbing it by the legs to break it's back?)

I don't agree with that at all, and frankly I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was siding with SF just because I disagree'd with one thing you said. Basically there's one practical way to kill a pitbull without a weapon and that is by strangulation. For some reason, though, you think I'm "wrong" because another man said so? I'm just here to tell you that you are misinformed if you think a pitbull cannot be strangled.