Upgrading a Colt Government

[supersix2]

I have a stainless Colt Government 38 Super and I'm considering upgrading it with a match grade barrel and/or possibly a compensator or ported barrel.

I've had the gun for a year now and I love it. I've gotten pretty accurate with it and I would like to improve upon its accuracy by upgrading the barrel.

One drawback...I have no idea what I'm doing. I know a fair amount about stock guns but when it comes to up grades I am totally clueless.

So I have a few basic questions for now to set me in the right direction.

What is a bull barrel and how does it affect the accuracy or recoil?

What is a ramped barrel and what does it do?

Are there any major differences between a ported barrel and attaching a compensator? Do they essentially accomplish the same task? Which one is better at controlling barrel rise/recoil?

Aside from a barrel, are there any other modifications that can improve accuracy?

Thanks!

[Plan9]

Have you tried a Google picture search for these things? I've kept up to date with firearm trends via Google, gun shops, and magazines. The M1911 is hands down the most popular handgun to modify in the US and a zillion people write about it. I have yet to get a firearm magazine in the mail that doesn't feature an article or ad about one

A bull barrel is a thicker, conical, heavyweight barrel that doesn't require a bushing and requires the installation of a different recoil spring mechanism ("reverse plug"). The bull barrel is cone-shaped and wedges itself against the inside of the slide when the action is locked up. I prefer bull barrels over regular barrels in M1911 style guns because of the muzzle-end weight advantage and it gets rid of a piece off the gun that is largely unnecessary. Most aftermarket bull barrels worth a damn require a lot of patience to properly fit. Bull barrels are popular on the compact Colt Officer-sized guns out there to make them more manageable at the range.

A ramped barrel features a feed ramp as seen on nearly every other pistol on the market such as Glock, Sig, HK, Beretta, etc. The most common example of M1911-style guns that feature this common sense advantage are Para-Ordnance. The M1911, being a veritable dinosaur of the gun world, uses the frame to provide the feed ramp instead of the barrel. The advantage of having a feed ramp on the barrel is there is a less iffy feed transition.

I don't recommend compensators and ported barrels on most handguns, so I leave it to somebody else to talk about 'em. It is in my experience that porting is largely unnecessary for anything but the most punishing handguns. Compensators are devices attached to the end of the barrel that begin when the rifling ends at the muzzle crown and serve to distribute the muzzle force in such a manner so as to reduce muzzle flip. Porting is similar but involves poking holes in actual rifled barrel, so as it provide this effect before the round has actually milked as much power as it can from the violently expanding gases used to propel it and the barrel that is guiding it. I say, "Humbug!" to porting. I feel that compensators are better than porting.

I feel that the biggest modification that improves accuracy on handguns are the sights and training.

What kind of sights do you have and are you looking at?

Hope I was helpful.

[Bear Cub]

That's the first time I've ever heard to a bull barrel as conical. I have never seen a tapered bull barrel.

[Slims]

Ok, can you post some pic's of your pistol as it is now? Preferably assembled and field-stripped so we can see the barrel/bushing/guide rod, etc.

Also, how much are you looking to spend?

When you put the slide on the frame without a barrel, how wobbly is it?

What kind of sights do you currently have?

Is your stock trigger fairly smooth, and does it have a short reset, or is it crappy?

If you field strip the pistol and then place a bullet under the extractor, does it fall out on it's own, just barely stay put, or did you really have to wedge it in?

Do you like fancy-looking pistols, match-style pistols, or just the most functionality you can get for your dollar?
-----Added 29/12/2008 at 08 : 14 : 43-----
Oh, and is your current pistol 100% reliable as it is, or will it need work just to make it function properly?

[Plan9]

Whew, must be late. I forgot "trigger." Thanks, Slims.

Originally Posted by Bear Cub

That's the first time I've ever heard to a bull barrel as conical. I have never seen a tapered bull barrel.

Wine bottle shaped? Dunno, I'm not an expert on gun terms, but it's like this: Bull Barrel Example

Idea is that the muzzle end is fat to lock up to the slide while the skinny chamber end allows the gun to unlock and get all wobbly to do that famous M1911 pumpkin-launching magic. Bull barrels do away with the need for a barrel bushing which removes a moving part that requires fitting from the gun.

I'm totally in favor of this because it reduces the silly "I'm touching this AND this" fitting cycle that screws up your possible accuracy: "The barrel is touching the bushing which is touching the slide. Fit the bushing to the slide and the bushing to the barrel." The better idea: "The barrel locks into the slide. Fit those two together."

[supersix2]

Ok, can you post some pic's of your pistol as it is now? Preferably assembled and field-stripped so we can see the barrel/bushing/guide rod, etc.

Sure I'll post some pictures in a few days, I'm visiting family for the holidays and I don't have it with me, when I get back home I'll post.

Also, how much are you looking to spend?

I'd say I'm willing to spend $300-500 I have no problem spending on quality parts for my firearms.

When you put the slide on the frame without a barrel, how wobbly is it?

I'd have to double check when I get home but if memory serves me its pretty solid. I would say it is considerably less wobbly than a Glock.

What kind of sights do you currently have?

I have the sights that came with the gun, they are black sights with white dots on the rear grove sight and a white dot on the front post sight. They are non-adjustable. I would like to add adjustable sights as well to the gun.

Is your stock trigger fairly smooth, and does it have a short reset, or is it crappy?

I think the trigger is OK but I've only really ever shot stock triggers so I'm not sure if I can improve upon it with a new trigger. I'll have to go shooting with it and try to pay attention to the trigger function.

If you field strip the pistol and then place a bullet under the extractor, does it fall out on it's own, just barely stay put, or did you really have to wedge it in?

I'll get back to you on this

Do you like fancy-looking pistols, match-style pistols, or just the most functionality you can get for your dollar?

For this I'm going for a match style look but I'm not just about cosmetics I also want functionality and upgrades that will legitimately improve my accuracy.
-----Added 29/12/2008 at 08 : 14 : 43-----
Oh, and is your current pistol 100% reliable as it is, or will it need work just to make it function properly?

100% reliable, I love it. I bought it brand new last year.

Thanks for all the help Slims and Cromspin. I was also wondering about the bull barrel. If you don't need the bushing how does the recoil spring stay in place? The bushing goes around the barrel and holds back the metal cylinder that contains the recoil spring.

[kel]

Before dumping money into mechanical accuracy get a proper 2 1/2 pound trigger job done. Find out what size group the gun is capable of shooting and decide what you want to be able to shoot. It is pretty unlikely that you need to replace the barrel to improve your groups as there are other things that need to come first.

[Slims]

Ok. Based on what you have indicated, I would suggest, in this order: Tuned Extractor and polished feed ramp/throat/chamber (if the pistol is less than 100% reliable, but in your case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it), Sites, Trigger job, Magwell and Quality Magazines with any leftover money. Remember that most failures are magazine-related, so a little money here goes a long ways. I am now partial to Nighthawk's 8 rounders, but that's personal preference and is likely because my pistol is a Nighthawk.

This will give you a better look, and set you up for entry-level competition shooting. The only caveat I have is that a 2 1/2 pound trigger is not typically considered safe for a pistol that is also going to be used for home defence, concealed carry, or anything other than a dedicated race-gun for matches where the pistol is only loaded on a hot range. The trigger is simply too light and the sear engagement surfaces are so minimal that the possibility of an accidental discharge is very high, especially with an inexpensive trigger job, as this one would have to be (you can spend a grand on a trigger job alone).

A basic trigger job down to a reasonable weight should more than suit your needs. A good gunsmith will focus on other things that are more important than the sheer weight of the trigger pull, such as how clean the trigger breaks, and reset.
-----Added 30/12/2008 at 12 : 10 : 41-----
Oh, and new grips can completely change both the appearance and feel of the pistol. I run these, for what it's worth: GR-G-19 - Mil-Tac G10 Grips - Grips - - Detail

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by kel

Before dumping money into mechanical accuracy get a proper 2 1/2 pound trigger job done.

Hell, I wouldn't put a 2.5# on a centerfire rifle. I don't see why a 3.0-.5# with a karate-chop reset isn't the goal here.

2.5 pounds is really scary. I think I can sneeze harder than that and I certainly don't want a sneeze throwing a 230-grain at the wrong target.

I prefer single action over DA and I think DAO is for pussy types, but I like to keep the trigger pull deliberate with enough tension to be operated by a fallible human.

[kel]

2 1/2 pound triggers do not require small engagement surfaces. Trigger pull weight is set via the sear spring. The engagement is chosen separately and can be as much or as little as you like. The days of 2 1/2 pound triggers being hard to set up and maintain are long gone given the quality of the parts and expertise available.

The OP asked about improving accuracy and there is no better way to improve your accuracy then a trigger job. It doesn't have to be 2 1/2 pounds if he isn't comfortable handling a gun with a trigger set at that weight, but a trigger job is going to give the most immediate improvement in consistency and group size. Trigger weight is easy to change as it is simply a matter of tweaking the sear spring and you can trust any local smith with that task (not so with a trigger job).

Until you have approached the general level of mechanical accuracy the gun is currently capable of there is no reason to replace the barrel. I haven't shot the gun so I can't say what it is capable of but 3 inches @ 25 yards would not surprise me. Consistently grouping 3 inches @ 25 yards is a lot harder then it sounds.

I agree 2 1/2 pounds is not suitable for self defense but they are commonly used in the action shooting sports (by regular joes no less) where drawing from a holster, shooting in and around obstacles while carry props, and reloading at speed is common place. They don't go bang if you keep your finger out of the trigger guard and on the slidestop.

[supersix2]

Good advice here from all.

I have no intention of carrying this gun or using it as my prime home defense gun. I have a Smith and Wesson 686 for that purpose. Its a lot easier to keep a revolver loaded and ready to go if I need it vs. a semi-auto. I like shooting this gun at the range because I'm accurate with it and I really like the look and feel of it. Out of all the hand-guns I've shot I consider it one of my favorite.

So based on what I've been reading, I don't really need a barrel at this time.

What I'm looking at now are:

Grips - I like the rubber Hogue grips with finger grooves, I use them on my 686 and I really like them.

Trigger - Looking at a stainless steel trigger with a lighter pull

Sights - Not sure what direction to go here need some advice.


There was some mention of an extractor and magwell.

I've rarely had feed problems unless I'm using MagTech ammo or I let someone shoot it and they limp wrist it so it jams.

Not sure what the mag well will buy me need some education on this.

Thanks again!

[Slims]

Ok, don't bother to replace the trigger itself...that is mostly cosmetic. The sear, Hammer, and other internal parts are what need to go first if you are seriously looking to upgrade your internals. Also, a 2.5 lb trigger job is hard to do safely, is very prone to error, will likely have problems down the road, and is above the minimum weight for many divisions. It is also not recommended by most experts even for competition....Experienced shooters sometimes run a trigger that light, but only for competition.

I personally don't like Hogue Grips, rather, I would replace whatever your pre-existing grips with something better, but it's your pistol.

Competition sights are...best for competition, surprise surprise. You CAN put competition sights on any 1911, however, if the dovetail is not set up to allow adjustable sights, they may hang over the back of the pistol a little bit. It's easy to check, when you are buying sights, just line them up and see whether they hang off the back.

I personally prefer Novak Low Mount tritium sights for mine, but my pistol is primarily for self defense. I am a fairly good shot, and have never had a need to adjust my sights. With that in mind, you may have no need to actually adjust anything....Particularly if you are not an accomplished pistol shot. What new shooters typically do is adjust the sights to compensate for their bad habits, and then whenever they start to shoot correctly, the rounds go high and right which further reinforces the bad habits and prevents them from ever really becoming good shots.

One of the first things people typically do to enhance the reliability of their weapon is to tune the extractor, which was why I asked you if it held a bullet in place by itself. However, you mentioned that you have had 100% reliability and I wasn't paying attention. Since you are not having problems, it works fine and doesn't need to be improved.

The Magwell will greatly enhance your ability to do a fast magazine change, and IMHO looks pretty cool too. It attaches onto the bottom of your pistol and makes a nice 'funnel' shaped opening so you can just cram a new mag anywhere in the vicinity of the bottom of your pistol and it will work. If you want to compete, this will speed your times up a lot...Magazine changes waste a lot of time when people fumble with them.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by kel

They don't go bang if you keep your finger out of the trigger guard and on the slidestop.

I disagree. Turning a gun into a Nintendo blaster leads to bad habits. This is probably why I don't like race guns.

...

I think replacing the stock barrel with a bull barrel would improve follow-up accuracy and add muzzle end stabilization by pushing the center of gravity forward.

[Slims]

Originally Posted by kel
"They don't go bang if you keep your finger out of the trigger guard and on the slide stop."

I missed that one. Be realistic, even experienced, professional shooters screw up, and by reducing the trigger pull down so low on a single action pistol you make it far easier for incidental contact during loading/unloading, etc. to cause an AD. Additionally, the 1911 is extremely complicated in practice, and it is very difficult so safely get the trigger down that low without changing the sear angle, etc. and taking shortcuts which will reduce the trigger pull, but will also compromise the trigger group and make it far more likely for something to go very wrong.

[kel]

I missed that one. Be realistic, even experienced, professional shooters screw up, and by reducing the trigger pull down so low on a single action pistol you make it far easier for incidental contact during loading/unloading, etc. to cause an AD

Intuitively you might think that but in my experience there is a pretty weak correlation between the people who have ADs and the weight of the trigger. I see a much stronger correlation between gun handling and ADs. The people who think they are faster then they are are (are are, oh boy) the ones throwing rounds over the berm.

The OP didn't mention he was doing action shooting so keeping the booger hook off the bang switch shouldn't be that challenging.

Also, a 2.5 lb trigger job is hard to do safely, is very prone to error, will likely have problems down the road,

Additionally, the 1911 is extremely complicated in practice, and it is very difficult so safely get the trigger down that low without changing the sear angle, etc. and taking shortcuts which will reduce the trigger pull, but will also compromise the trigger group and make it far more likely for something to go very wrong.

I have to disagree with this. The classic 3 1/2 pound NRA legal bullseye trigger job has .020 hammer hooks and has half of the sear nose cut for the escape angle. I have a 2 1/2 pound trigger single stack with .023 hammer hooks and only 1/4 of the sear nose cut for the escape angle. Trigger weight is a function of springs. Trigger feel is a function of hammer and sear geometry and surface finish.

I would really like to hear what these shortcuts are.

A 2 1/2 pound trigger job can last a long time. I would be sorely disappointed if I didn't get 60k out of a set. Have you priced 60k rounds of ammo lately? Performance doesn't come cheap but it isn't quite as expensive as you might think.

and is above the minimum weight for many divisions.

What sport are you thinking of that has a minimum required trigger pull? NRA Bullseye where rim fire pistols are prohibited from going below 2 1/2 pounds? What more endorsement do you need for shooting groups with a 2 1/2 pound trigger?

[Slims]

This is purely a personal opinion, but I don't believe the added 'accuracy' of the superlight trigger will provide any noticeable benefits for supersix unless he is already an elite shooter. However, it can cause problems. If he works on good habits a good 4.5 lb trigger shouldn't impede him unless he *really* needs that extra point to win the match.

Ok, here are some trigger shortcuts that can cause problems: The biggest one is to alter the primary angle on the sear. It gives a nice light trigger, but greatly increases the risk of a pistol going auto. Another is to shorten the hammer hooks too much which will, with any wear, allow the hammer to drop to half-cock prematurely. Another is to reduce the spring tension too much which can cause the hammer to follow. And my favorite as it hapenned to me on a 2500 dollar pistol is a trigger which is too light, with very little sear engagement...If you pulled or bumped the trigger with the safety ON, when you released the safety the hammer would fall to half-cock. Oh, and when amateur gunsmiths cut through the hardening on the sear, it works like a champ...for a little while and then goes full auto.



I hate to do this, but since I am in no way a 1911 guru and this is a potential safety issue, I am going to quote one of the more respected 1911 experts on a 1911 forum:

"While many smiths are able to produce a sub 4-pound trigger on a 1911, only about half of them can do one that's also safe and durable. About 7 in 10 that I know of like that start to burst-fire or go full auto...usually without warning...within 5,000 rounds. I spend a good amount of my spare time correcting trigger jobs like that in friends' pistols.

As long as the half-cock is unaltered, the gun is highly unlikely to bump-fire
in a holster or if dropped, but if the trigger is pulled and the sear and hammer angles...or the sear spring tension isn't right...it can most assuredly burst-fire, and probably will at some point.

The other problem with a trigger that light is that...in the event of a tense, stand-off situation with the gun...the adrenalin charge could cause you to fire before you need to. If the gun is intended to be purely a range toy,
it's not so much of a problem as long as you tear the gun down for regular inspection of the hammer and sear...and I mean an inspection by a knowledgeable smith who knows the warning signs. If you have a dial indicator and a bench vise, you can do the test yourself. Clamp the pistol lightly in the vise and zero the indicator on the cocked hammer. Slowly pull the trigger and watch the needle. If the hammer moves forward by as much
as .003 inch before the break, you've got trouble looming on the horizon.
If you zero the indicator and let it sit for 30 minutes...and it creeps forward on its own...the trouble has already arrived.

That crisp, new, 3-pound trigger is probably safe...until things start to wear and springs lose tension. Really good trigger men don't come cheap. Know your smith and be ready to pay a premium for top-end job.

Just a little food for thought..." ~1911Tuner


What Kel is suggesting for your 1911 is so far out there on the Bell curve that you should think long and hard before going that route. Sure, it has an application, but it is a very narrow one and is considered impractical by most people. If you plan on doing nothing more than standing and shooting slow-fire, you have the time and knowledge to do the inspections, and you don't care if one day your weapon goes auto unexpectedly, then go for it. Otherwise, stay with a more practical trigger.


And here are some competition divisions that a light trigger would disqualify supersix from: I am not a Bullseye shooter, but it looks like he would be disqualified from the Service Pistol division with anything less than a 4# pull. . Neither USPSA nor IDPA have a minimum trigger pull, however the Range Officer can exlude any weapon they deem to be unsafe, and a 2.5# trigger on something other than a dedicated race gun will make a lot of them very nervous if they find out.

[Plan9]

If your piece looks anything like this and is equipped with the standard plastic Colt POS narrow trigger, you're going to want to change your stock trigger ASAP to a wider aluminum one (possibly serrated with the three fancy holes poked in it). The increased surface area on the pad of your fingertip will allow for more consistent squeezes. Sear work, pull weight, and all that drama aside... having a wider trigger surface will aid in an even trigger pull by giving you a better seat to put more finger on there and help prevent the left and right pulling issues some shooters see when shooting pistols with narrower triggers (such as the stock 1911, Sig P220, etc). What was that old Pontiac slogan? "Wider is better."

Stock triggers on most made-by-Colt M1911s are absolute garbage. My "1991A1" was immediately upgraded and it made a big difference. I'm a little biased about this, though... I tend to favor wider triggers. I'm a big fan of the "bang flap" on H&K USPs.

[supersix2]

Yep, looks exactly like that. That's why I was thinking of getting a new, wider trigger. Plus I like the look of those serrated triggers as well.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by supersix2

Yep, looks exactly like that. That's why I was thinking of getting a new, wider trigger. Plus I like the look of those serrated triggers as well.

Yeah... it won't change the way the gun works, but it'll change how you handle the gun.

Here's a good example: Oooh, pretty.

BTW: Do NOT use an "adjustable" (overtravel stop set screw) trigger on your gun or any Series 80 Colt.

[supersix2]

Ok so after reading these posts and doing some research I've came to the following conclusions.

Upgrades to get:

Aluminum 3-hole serrated trigger

Rubber Hogue Grips w/ Finger Grooves

Bevelled Mag Well (I found some pictures of guns with those and I like the look plus allowing for faster mag changes is nice)

Magazine Base pads (seems like they are necessary with the mag well.)

Tactical Mag Release (longer than the standard for easier mag changes goes along with mag well addition)


I'm still sitting on the fence about sights, not really sure if its worth upgrading them right now, I did find some Kimber sights on CheaperThanDirt but I'm just not sure if it would be worth getting them right now.

As far as where to buy these things, I found a trigger, grips, and sights on cheaperthandirt. I found the tactical mag release from Night Hawk as well as magazines from Night Hawk (I have 2 factor mags and will probably just add base pads to both of them and just pick up a 3rd magazine from somewhere. )
for
So now my big question is what manufacturers for these parts. I have no problem spending a little extra for quality but I'm also fully aware that not all inexpensive stuff is poorly made.
I'm looking to get good quality products but not wanting to pay more just for a brand name.

[Slims]

Sounds like a good plan. You can change the sights any time you get tired of the ones you have, and as long as your current ones work, then there is no hurry.

Remember that changing a trigger on a 1911 is a hit and miss thing, and it may require some additional work to fit it correctly...You might want to consider having a gunsmith do this and a quick trigger-job while you are at it. It will likely make a huge difference.

I have had good luck with Wilson and Nighthawk parts and magazines, though they certainly are not the cheapest. Wilson became famous for their triggers, so I doubt you would go wrong with one of theirs. I use Nighthawk only because they made my pistol and it is a matter of convenience for me, though they are very high quality.

I have an extended mag release on my pistol and like it a lot. It is not over sized, just slightly extended. I doubt there is much difference between brands for that part.

[ramone]

Crompsin,

Why don't you like the over-travel trigger?

I know what happens if you over tighten it, but it's the sort of mistake one only makes once (if at all) and a little threadlock serves well...

Ramone

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by ramone

Why don't you like the over-travel trigger?

Safety issues. This guy can say it better than me: BINGO

[supersix2]

Ah been busy since I started back at work.

So to answer some earlier questions, the bullet stays put in the extractor and it goes in to place easily. Once in place the bullet stays in itself and droops down slightly.

The slide is not very loose at all when on the frame without the barrel installed. It's tough to quantify but there is very little give to either side.

Finally here are some pictures of it field stripped and assembled. The quality is kinda cruddy because I only have a camera phone.

[samcol]

Sorry for the slight threadjack, but lately I've really been looking at 1911's lately and wanted some opinions.

I will primarily be using it for carry and some target shooting. I've been leaning towards the Kimber pro carry II, but can't decide between aluminum or steel frame. My concern is there being too much kick on the aluminum one. I have a .357 snub ultra light revolver that that is just too much kick as a comparison. On the other hand 12 guages and .30 06 type rifles dont bother me at all.

Any reccomendations in the 4 inch barrel range in a quality brand? I don't have a problem spending $800-1000 or so if i feel I'm getting a good firearm.

Thanks

[supersix2]

I'm personally a fan of Colt. I like the Colt Defender stainless steel. Taurus has a 1911 line out now that I've seen decent reviews on but I personally would rather have an American made 1911 over a foreign one.

As far as Kimber, I'm of the opinion you don't need match grade parts and fitting for a carry gun since you are only using it as a last resort and most likely at extreme close range. My carry philosophy is compact, lightweight, easily concealable no matter what kind of clothes you are wearing, and something with enough stopping power to put a quick end to whatever situation you are in. Recoil is generally a problem with those compact ultra-lights but the way I look at it is that you are only going to need 1 or 2 shots and its going to be close range so the recoil issue doesn't bother me. I would rather have a gun small enough and light enough to carry that I won't think twice about grabbing it before I go out. The problem, in my mind, with larger, heavier carry guns are that you might be less inclined to take it with you because you don't want the hassle so what good is it then?

That being said, Colt Defenders and Kimber Ultra Carry's are roughly the same price anyway so if you like kimber go for it.