Audio Amps: Glass tube or Solid State ?
 

Can you say "opening Pandora's box?" Asking an audio nut if they like tubes or solid state gear is like asking a car nut Ford or Chevy. I personally am a devout solid state guy. I cannot quite pinpoint what I do not like about tubes, but something about their sound just does not sit well with me. I am a very critical and discriminate listener, so I love the extremely, painfully, somtimes disgustingly detailed sound of a really nice solid state amp like a Naim or Meridian. The others at my store are all tube whores and say that vocals sound more natural on tubes. I feel the exact opposite. I may or may not be wrong, but that is just the sound I am particular to. Solid state also gives quicker and more powerful dynamics. As you know, solid state gear is just that, solid-state. A transistor can switch on and off much faster than a tube can heat up. Solid state gear also has more "oomph" behind it too. The bass out of them is tighter and more impactful.

These are just my humble feelings on the matter, you may do with them as you please.

I'm no expert, but I always like the sound of tubes better than solid state. The big thing I notice is that guitar distortion always sounds less synthetic on tube amps, and the same with high frequencies.

Take your pick. Then you can make it sound to your liking either way. There is no one right answer, that's an elusive fantasy.

IMO, the balance between all your components and how they interact is more significant than tube vs solid state; I'm talkiing about the whole chain from first input to speaker output. Some of what you said about tube vs SS sound are stereotypes and maybe applies to some older tube equipment. No matter what sound you prefer, I'd bet I could put together a tube driven setup and a SS setup that you would like. But I think a good solid state setup is probably gonna cost less and be more practical for most. I'm not a fan of what I'd call the "old traditional" tube sound even though it has it's positive points too; and even there, old triode tubes sound different than pentodes etc.

I've had all sorts of SS and tube stuff throughout my component chain. For about the last 15yrs or so, I'm using and happy with a tube preamp (custom modified Audio Research SP6B) with a SS amp (modified Threshhold S300-II) but I find that cartridge changes and how I amplify the cartridge (moving coil with or without various step up devices vs moving magnet) and the character of the speakers make more significant differences than the type of amplifiers. How CD's sound is different too but I think less complicated since there are less pieces in the chain.

About less sythetic sounding guitars, it's funny when I was selliing my old solid state Crown D150 amp many years ago, I had a line of guitar players outside my house bidding the thing up above what I was even asking for it. Those guitar players said they really liked how the D150 made their guitars sound; this was both electric and amplified acoutic guitars ...I don't know what to think of that since I'm not a musician.

One thing about amplifier distortion that I have floating around in my head for better or worse is that ...this is an opinion not necessarily absolute fact... tube amps generate more significant odd order harmonics (like 3rd order) vs SS amps are making more even order harmonics (like 2nd order). Human hearing seems to prefer the odds vs the evens. But like I said above, other factors wash out these differences in 99.9999% of systems.

Here's a reason to go tubes: years ago a comforting experience with a Beard P100 tube amp I had for a while was the amount of heat it gave off = I literally had to turn the heat off in that room! Those big old KT88 tubes could almost heat my entire house and the aura and glow of the tubes was magical. But that doesn't make it better or worse than solid state.

Tubes may be better but for the $$$, I'll take solid state any day. Put the savings in to a better source components or speakers.

Tubes may be better but for the money I'll take solid state. Put the savings in to a better source components or speakers.

All I can say is that my brother is the studio engineer for one of the largest, most successful bands in the world, and he swears by tube amplifiers. The band refuses to use anything else for most of their work.

Mr Mephisto

Oh, God, this has the potential to turn into a holy war. It's like asking which is better, Macs or PCs. That said, it's still a valid question.

Here's my take: as long as you have good quality amps (flat frequency response, good distortion figures, etc) and are operating each amp within it's power envelope (not coming anywhere close to clipping) you shouldn't hear a difference!

There is no mystery to this stuff - I've been in a position for the last few years where I have access to test data for literally thousands of different amps, preamps, etc. The key, IMHO, to understanding why well-designed (this is important) amps sound different lies in three areas:

1. Do they really sound different - or do you just think so? Ive seen a number of double blind AB and ABX listening tests where amps were indistinguishable from one another as long as they were not total crap. If you know what you are listening to your brain will strive to hear a difference and often create one where it does not exist. It's a very powerful effect and I didn't really believe it until I experienced it myself and witnessed it in others.

2. Are you operating the amp within its power envelope? Music (particularly on well recorded albums that haven't been overly compressed) is extraordinarly dynamic. If you are listening at a volume that even remotely approaches "a bit loud" you will probably be shocked to know how much power it takes to reproduce a piano without inducing a bit of clipping in the amp. It's something on the order of 50W-100W, depending on the sensitivity of your speakers. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, so please excuse this hand-wavy explaination.

Even very small amounts of clipping are detectable by the ear. Tube amps clip more gracefully than solid state amps - so if both amps are clipping the tube amp will sound better in those conditions. Accordingly, for the same perceived sound quality a tube amp can clip more than a solid state amp. When a solid state amp clips it literally cuts off (hence "clips") the peaks of the waveform. Tube amp clipping looks more like compression - sort of squeezing the waveform while keeping the same general shape. Be very wary of manufacturer's quote power outputs, especially on less expensive gear. This goes double for any sort of home theater receiver product. There are all kinds of games that can be played to grossly inflate an amp's power rating.

But, as long as you are using amps powerful enough for your sepakers, room size, and listening level this shouldn't come into play. But like I said above - it comes into play more often than most people suspect, I suspect.

3. Your speakers and the effect they have on the amp. Yes - your speakers effect what's going on in the amp in addition to the other way around. It's just a fact that, due to their design, solid state amps are way better at driving low impedance loads. If you have demanding speakers (electrically speaking, that is) you will almost certianly be better off with a sold state amp.

In the end - I'm a fan of any well designed amplifier. Pragmatically speaking - I recommend solid state amps when asked. They require much less maintenance (tube amps need the bias checked every so often, and you will have to replace tubes), and for the same sound quality you will spend much less on a solid state unit than you would have to for a tube amp. But, tube amps do look cool.

One final thing - guitar players and live bands often use tube amps. This is usually due to the distortion that the tubes introduce into the music. Many people find the sound of this distortion pleasing, which illustrates another point: it's as much about taste as anything else. But - there's a difference between deliberately introducing distortion during the performance/recording process and unintentionally introducing it during the playback. If you duplicate the distortion of the performance/recording process you will "double up" on the distortion and that's probably not what the artist intended. My goal is to be as original to the performance of the artist as possible. Otherwise it's like going to the museum with colored glasses - you might not mind the look but you aren't seeng the artist's work.

Tubes, tubes, TUBES!!! Mmm...the sound of a tube amp is like sonic panty remover. There are effects that you have to buy to try to replicate the tube sound on a solid state amp. Solid State has a couple of benefits but not enough to match the sound of a tube amp. Sure, the tubes have to warm up and they will eventually need replacing but they are so worth it.

If I wanted the effects of a tube amp, I wouldn't buy an effects box or some shit, I'd buy a damn tube amp. But I don't want to, because I do not like tubes. There is no such thing as a perfect amp. Tubes have some things they do better than solid state, and solid state amps can do things better than tubes. Tubes have smoother midrange and a softer roll off up top, but solid state has tigher and more accurate bass, and they are extremely revealing. My co workers all say tubes sound more natural on vocals (they're probably right), but they are all analog-heads and like that sound. I am a full on digitalophile, and I like the cold unforgiving digital sound. If the guy in the studio farts when recording, I wanna hear it.

You cant hear the difference between a 'tube watt' and a 'solid state watt'.
A watt is a watt. The only sonic give away occurs when a tube amp is clipped. You can make a solid state amp sound like a tube amp with less than $1 in parts.

Nelson

Hell, now I'm curious :) can you tell us the band? Or at least elude?

First off audiophiles and cult members have more in common than either would care to admit.
The human ear does seem to enjoy the non linear distortion characteristics of a tube amplifier, but without good speakers, its all for naught.
I once had the experience of being in a living room designed for an audiophile. The entire house was built with the ultimate goal of reproducing sound properly. The walls and ceiling contained achingly high end soffit mounted speakers. The room's furniture was designed, chosen, and placed for its ability to diffuse or reflect sound to such a degree that the beyond massive granite coffee table was used to reflect certain frequencies from a certain speaker to recreate ambiance. The sound was so close to real it was spooky. The power amp being used to demonstrate this was from Radio Shack. No this was not the amp that would be ultimately used, it was brought onsite by one of the speaker providers. Pretty good evidence of the relative importance of speaker versus amplifier.

exploreyourself:

Thanks for the info, it was a good read.

Personally, as a guitarist, I love tube amps for creating music, but I havent been exposed to enough tube amps in listening to music to make an educated statement on which I think is better....

I have always owned sold-state and love them. the NAD i am listening to Led Zep on right now sounds amazing.

Sorry Nelson, I agree with some things you say, but to say that tube amps and solid state amps sound the same is preposterous. There are even differences between differing amps. For example, a Parasound 125wpc THX Ultra2 certified amp sounds very different from a Naim of similar power. A Rogue Audio tube amp (very solid state sounding) sounds completely different from an Innersound or Shanling.

http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimate...1;t=022175;p=1

In sum: A tube amp will sound the same as a solid state amp when both are compared in linear opperation. Add a $.10 resistor to the output of the solid state amp and it will sound similar to the tube amp driven to non linear operation (wich is the only time you hear the 'tube sound')

Its a never ending argument LOL.

I'am building a tube amp myself as a project for school. It's almost finished. When it's finished i'am going to do several messurements in a professional auditorium. These messurements will than be compared to a solid state amp. I'll keep you guys updated.

Here is a picture for you
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gschep/SBW71/Buizen%20versterker/Foto's/Nieuw/IMG_0103.JPG

What type of measurements will you be taking?

Using a 'professional auditorium' has nothing to do with recording any measurable differences in sound characteristics. Save yourself the trouble and do the 'tests' on a test bench.

Good luck with your project - keep us posted!

I'll be painfully wishy-washy here. A combination of tubes and SS can capture most of both worlds. Don't feel like you have to be all tube or all SS. I think the best combination I have ever heard was a tube preamp with an SS amplifier. Plus the SS CD player. It was really amazing. And RonRyan: tubes are not necessarily mroe expensive. You might even build some tube gear from some place like Bottlehead.com or something. I like tubes. I've had SS for such a long time, and tubes really relax the whole musical picture for me, add some drama, and allow me to listen much longer into the evening than my all SS system. 2cents. Yeah.

Juju!! Glad you see you back!! Where you been man??

@Nelson
The following things will be measured (and maybe some more):

-Frequentie response
-THD (total harmonic distortion)
-Crosstalk between channels
-Input CMR (Common Mode Rejection)
-Damping factor
-Input impedance
-Input sensitivity
-Slew rate

I'll keep you updated. Thanks for the support.

'professional auditorium'
It sounds as if you plan on measuring these things "in air". While it is useful to measure real world results, this method will raise the bar on the method of measurement involved.
It would seem that to achieve any meaningful numbers you would need to perform the test in an Anechoic chamber rather than an auditorium to avoid echo creating phase problems misleading your measurements. The choice of a laboratory grade speakers and microphones is a greater can of worms. Microphones and Speakers exhibit more variation than tube amps vs. solid state ever would. Then there is speaker loading difference between tube and solid state making direct amp output measurements about as difficult as mic and speaker readings.

I sincerely will you good luck with the details of project

Very very big and very very Irish.

:)


Mr Mephisto

I have come to the conclusion that i have used 'professional auditorium' incorrect. The testing is done in the SA (stage accompany, for info check out http://www.stage-accompany.com/) test facility. Sorry for the misunderstanding. The loading difference between tube and ss is solved by a transformer.

Well if it was a guitar amp.......tube all the way..nothing distorts better than a tube amp :)

You know, that was the first band I thought of when you made the initial comment....

And in response to the thread: I can definitely tell the difference in terms of tube vs. Solid State. I myself have always been leaning toward SS, but recently hearing a tube headphone amp has changed that a bit. I think I'll always like SS better for speakers, but powering headphones, I could see myself with a nice tube amp. I listened to a bunch of grados through a nice tube amp and it just seemed right.

I'am now near completing my tubeamp project. After analysing the tube's datheets and output transformer, I conclude that the total harmonic distortion of the tube amp is expected to be many times worse than for a ss amp. Mainly because of the output transformer. The messurements will be done in the new year, than I can be 100% positive.

For most tube headpnone amps you don't need a output transformer. This probably makes quite a difference.

Certainly the tube amp will have more distortion. Great care with the output transformer and circuitry is required and that is a big part of the extra expense of a good tube amp. The output feedback network, and balancing can make a big difference here.

supafly, you don't mention non-harmonic distortion tests, such as weird mixing products. You should do two tone tests too.

other tests you might consider:

Test freq. responce at just under clipping.
Pulse tests might be interesting. (overshoot, under shoot, sorta like slew rate, I guess)

You might test the noise floor at zero volume and full gain with input terminated.

What will be the dynamic range before clipping with a stated noise floor?

How critical will the load impedance be? (test at 2 to 16 ohms in 2 ohm steps at half power, for instance) test damping? various distortion tests.

just some ideas to keep you busy :-)

I wonder what tubes you are using? what circuit? point to point or circuit board wiring?
reply if you want to.

I would think the output transformer, a very good power supply, some low noise tight tolerance little components, careful feedback network, and common ground point (or lack of loops) is the big deal here.

Let me jump in again here. What are you really going to do with it? If you're just going to use it for music reproduction, the VERY best instrument YOU can use will be your own ears. It may measure incredibly in every possible test, but if it sounds liek crap, it won't really matter. Once it's built, just listen to it. Tubes always measure worse, but that soft clipping is what makes them sound so nice.

You might also throw these questions around at http://www.bottlehead.com.

Finally, Nelson, I know what you're getting at with your description of adding at 10¢ resistor...but please tell me your use of the word "similar" was not real! If that were really the case, every ss amp manufacturer would be doing it...and we wouldn't be having this conversation! LOL! I'll agree that the first watt is the most critical. How about that, then? (!)

tnx for the link jujueye.

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/bottleh...logy_story.htm

Plenty I did not know.

Ah, you'll be in trouble now flat5!
Seriously, though, the forum there is amazing. Spend some time digging through and you'll see just how much information is stored there. Lots of truly helpful and technically adept members. Build a kit! I built the Foreplay preamp kit and I have to say it truly kicks ass. I think its because the circuit is so simple. With a few tweaks, it borders on greatness.

I think you answered your own question.
The amp itself is just one item in the chain. It has to be evaluated in the context of a complimentary music source (turntable/cartridge, reel-to-reel, CD player etc.), transducers (cones, electrostats, horns, ribbons, hybrids, etc...) and cables (solid core, twisted copper etc...). In any case it's not so much a question of "better" or "worse." Most high-end afficionados will tell you that various amps are simply characteristically distinct. Only part of that "character" is a function of frequency response, harmonic distortion, impedence etc... the rest is a matter of personal taste.

I used to follow "the numbers" as a guide to evaluating equipment until I put aside the literature and just went to listen to various systems and figured out my own preferences. And the more expensive amp (or loudspeaker, or player, or cable...) wasn't necessarily better to my ears. I have heard some great tubes, but I'm not willing to put up with the inconvenience for the sake of music.

Still, it's not just a matter of the "Emperor with no clothes." There ARE differences between amps. In a side-by-side comparison some recordings will reveal this more than others. Many studio-mixed heavily synthesized pop CDs might not sound much different in different systems. On the other hand, a well-engineered recording of a live concert could reveal dramatic differences.

jujueye says "Build a kit! I built the Foreplay preamp kit and I have to say it truly kicks ass."

I'll read some of the forum. Not really a serious interest of mine.
If I really wanted to build something, it would be another 80-40-20 meter SSB receiver.
The one I built in the 70s is gone now. Still miss it :-)

The amp I use (found on the street - that's Amsterdam for you) is a Luxman L-30.
2x30watt - Built from 1976-1978. picture here, five rows down on right side of screen.
http://www.hificlassic.dk/

No problem, flat5. Maybe I'm just addicted to solder fumes... :crazy: But do hit the forums. A big brain dump going on 24/7 there.

The Luxman: cool, man! Go Luxy!

For ronryman: another thing to consider with tubes: you can always change the sound of a tube rig by simply changing tubes. There are a lot of places still manufacturing or selling old tube stock. And they do not all sound the same. This, as you know, cannot be donw with ss components. Just an fyi.

Doesn't the fact that changing tubes will change the sound imply coloration? My feeling is that tubes are normally laid-back and graceful where SS is bright. I personally prefer the brightness because it allows me to choose speakers that integrate with it. Speakers can't spit out a sound that doesn't exist. But they can eliminate unwanted sounds. Additionally, I have found that SS amps tend to be quite a bit more bulletproof.

A question for those of you who mentioned familiarity with professional recording: are live shows all SS these days due to the reliability of the equipment?

Catmandu - whooee - that could spawn another huge thread! I suppose that gets back to the question of: what is the right sound? With stereo gear, we are trying to reproduce what was recorded at the studio or site. Without having access to that gear, then its a tough call. Shooting for a flat frequency response doesn't do too well either as it usually sounds bland. So are we coloring the sound to be more pleasing or to make it more like the original sound? I'm not trying to make this more difficult, but it's a tough question! I'll think some more about it and try to get more info to you.

As far as tubes sounding laid-back, I can safely say there are tubes that strive to be clean and accurate like an ss sound. With the wrong speakers, these could burn your eardrums just like ss! On the other end of the scale, there are tubes that sound like what we all remember: smooth and buttery. Like any audio gear: component matching is key. And if the current tubes don't sound great, start shopping for more!

The trick to buying audio is to get whatever sounds best to you. Go listen to the tube amps, then listen to the solid state amps. Use the same CD on both. Make sure it's one you're familiar with. Make sure they're driving the same speakers. If the tube amp sounds so much better that it's worth the extra expense TO YOU, then buy it. Don't let some audio snob tell you you HAVE to buy it because it's what all the cool geeks are buying this year.

IMHO tubes sound a little better than solid state, but they don't sound so much better that I can justify spending hundreds and even thousands of dollars extra for them. I'd rather put those dollars into buying music - after all, if you sink 80 grand into a stereo (and when you get into high-end tube amp territory, it's pretty easy to do that) but can't afford any albums (note I did not say CD's or records, to avoid opening THAT can of worms) to play on it, then there's not much point in having bought it.

The tests will be:

-Frequency response
-THD (total harmonic distortion)
-Crosstalk between channels
-Input CMR (Common Mode Rejection)
-Damping factor
-Input impedance
-Input sensitivity
-Slew rate

The two tone test and the load impedance test you mentioned are quite interesting suggestions.

The tubes I'am using are two E88CC's for the driver circuit and eight EL36's for poweramplification. The EL36 tube was commonly used in black and white TV's but works well for audio too.

THe output tranformers I use are 3A524's they have quite a nice freqency responce and are made by Amplimo. This is a famous tranformer manufacturer from The Netherlands (www.amplimo.nl).

The circuit design was done by myself. I can post the schematic and some pics in a few days if you're interested.

You took the words out of my mouth. Sure, tube amps sound a little better, but it's not really worth all that cash and unreliability.

That being said, you can build your own tube amp for a relatively low cost.

Explain to me the desire to have an under powered amp that sounds best when clipped?

For me, a SS amp with plenty of dynamic headroom - let the 'golden ears' gather around the tubes and tell stories about speaker wire, optical cable burn-in, and magic power chords LOL

Lets make one thing perfectly clear: tube amps do not always cost more. I really don't know where that came from. Don't believe me? Check out the homepage for this amplifier manufacturer: http://www.boulderamp.com/. The amplifier shown on their homepage is the Boulder 1050. 500 watts, monoblock. At $37,500 for the pair, there are obviously cheaper items to buy. This is an SS amp. Statements like "tube amps are more expensive" are just not true.

Nelson, I said earlier that "the first watt is the most important" and I'll stand by it. If you only knew how many watts you were really using when your stereo is cranking out 100dB, you would see what I mean. I have heard many demos of so-called underpowered amplifiers that would drive most sane people from the room.

Tubes do not sound best when driven to clipping. I'm not sure where you got that. The neat thing about tubes is that they clip far more gracefully than an SS circuit. This is not a golden ear thing, anyone can hear it. Classifying someone as a golden ear is like telling someone who loves fine art or photography that they are a "vision snob".

BTW - shakran - PERFECT! So many people just take some sale geek's word. Excellent suggestion!

tube amps always sound better but with all the digital modeling and other advancements in sound engineering the difference between solid-state and tube amps is alot harder to notice. so if your on a budget go with the solid-state amps

Here ia link to my site, here you can find the schematics and some pictures:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~gschep/PSB72/Buizen%20versterker/Schema's/

The schematics for the amplifier and power suply are in different folders named versterker and voeding. For pictures go to the parent parent directory and click Foto's.

Today I sound checked the amp and it sounds amazing. The money (aprox. 500 usd) and time (aprox 200 hours) I spend designing/building it were well worth it.

Jujueye - put your money where your mouth is - follow this link:
http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showt...threadid=18815

Theres $10,000.00 waiting for you. Hundreds have tried and not one check has been written.

Give it a read and let me know what you think :)

Nelson - I'm not trying to make you mad or even sound like I'm some kind of irritating snob. Please pm me if I am!!!

Ah, the Richard Clark link rears it's head again, eh? Did you show me that because I said you could hear tubes clipping? OK! (I still think any remotely trained ear can hear tubes clip...) Unfortunately for me, there will be no 10K check in the mail as rule 12 says, "Although anyone is welcome to take the test, only subjects employed in the car audio industry or Car Sound subscribers are eligible for the $10,000.00 prize." Clark is an intelligent man, and I have read much that he has written, but I do find his dismissal of tube designs to be strange. Personally, I thought his rules morph part way through the list to somehow start to include car audio gear. Oh well, its his test, eh?

I still want to know what his gig is about making an ss amp sound like a tube amp with a few parts. One part on that link suggests putting a resistor in line with the output. So this is the same as turning the volume down. Resistors resists, right? TO me ,that just wouldn't do it. If you even consider putting the resistor on the ground side, it should only change the output impedance, and would again have no effect on the sound. I am a bit weary of those suggestions, but would really have to hear it to believe it.

Thanks for the link and lively conversation. Few threads in this category on tfp get over one page! Congrats! :thumbsup:

jujueye - not at all mad - I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone :)

As for the challenge - The rules I linked to are very old - Richard has since opened up the challenge to anyone willing to take it. I have followed many a post by golden ears who come up with every excuse under the sun to discredit his statements. Funny thing is not one of them has ever followed through and taken the test to prove him wrong!

Im not a 'Clarkie' by any means - but I do enjoy his straight talk. Being in the industry for many years it has become very apparent to me that consumers are overly driven by markeneering.

Cool. Are the links somewhere on that page? I'd like to see the excuses! I would bet many of them refer to the setup, which looks very tight.

I took part in a blind (not double blind) test a few years back. Myself and a bunch of audio geeks here in Seattle... We were fiddling with cables, gear, etc. Nothing organized or anything. Well, most of the group got snowed on the first trial. Our test administrator at the time simply shut off the gear, fiddled around like he changed something, then turned it all back on and played the same track again. My notes read, "didn't hear much difference." I was so happy when he later told us he changed nothing between trial one and two. hahaha.... :D The Power of suggestion, eh?

Still...a home audio combination of a tube preamp and ss amplifier, to me, is a fantastic combination...

Do a search in the forum section I posted above. Use the search 'amp challenge' in Richard Clarks forum. I found 4 pages. I get a laugh everytime someone brings it back to light.

This was one of the better ones: http://www.carsound.com/UBB/ultimate...=022785#000000

Geez, Clark gets a little pissy, doesn't he? As soon as someone gets remotely technical, he gets tactical-technical on their ass. What a cranky guy! He says, "...that would make at least a few of the snobby home audio guys pause for at least a few thoughts..." I'm so sick of this. What a dick. He says this and calls home audio guys snobby? Gimme a break.

I applaud RC's efforts to de-voodoo-ize the cult of sound. The one thing however that has always bothered me about the challenge is that you cannot directly compare one amplifier to another "as is" without first setting them to essentially equal characteristics and only evaluate their performance within their linear range of operation, i.e. unclipped. In effect you would be negating any differences between them at the front-end of the challenge. Under those circumstances, all amplifiers would have to sound the same.

soundmotor

soundmotor - I think you are mis reading the rules of the challenge. The only things that are changed or eliminated are those that alter the signal. For example - all crossovers, eq's, built in DSP etc. must be bypassed.

Think of it this way: Amp manufacturer 'A' claims their amplifier delivers buttery bass, and creamy highs. BUT this is achieved not through amplification but processing - why would it be fair to compare that amp to another amp that does not use any processing?

B

Because that's how they sell them. Why would you compare them under a circumstance that is different from how you would buy and use the equipment? Am I missing something? :confused:

Clark's test (each time I've read through the parameters) seems to be based on negating differences due to any side-chain processing (as you've noted) as well as only allowing direct A/B comparisons within the range of linear operation for the amplifiers under test. In other words, it appears to find the space where the amplifiers are equivalent but excludes everything else from comparison. In other, other words, my wife is a girl, therefore she is identical to Angelina Jolie.

:crazy:

Within the scope of the amp challenge, that seems to be the postulate.

soundmotor

Whats wrong with comparing amps within their linear operating range? Have you ever heard a company claim 'our amplifier sounds terrific when drivin to hard clipping'?

And the challenge is a comparison of amplifiers NOT processors - so why shouldnt they be eliminated from the loop?

If Im considering buying a mid-level dodge neon based on gas mileage, interior comfort, and ride quality why would I ever let the salesman ice over me with a test drive of the turbo charged Neon SRT4 with upgraded interior and handling??

Angelina Jolie indeed may have more 'processing/DSP' than your wife (I have no idea) LOL - but if they were compared as female humans Im sure both would qualify and neither would have any qualities that made them a better female human than the other.

:lol:

Thank you for that!

soundmotor

Because that is not real world usage. Amplifiers do get driven into clipping during actual use on a regular basis. It is certainly important to me that they sound good under any usage condition, not an artificial one designed to guarantee a specific outcome.

Re-read what I wrote. I am in complete agreement with you & RC on this.

Because you've a theory on sheep's bladders being used to prevent earthquakes perhaps? That makes as much sense as your analogy in the context of this discussion, yes?

:icare:

soundmotor

Within their operating range, solid state amplifiers can generally reproduce the original signal more accurately, that much can be proven with a spectrum analyzer. However, you may or may not want to accurately reproduce the original signal, and you may or may not want to use the amplifier within its operating range.

Not with that exact phrasing, but driving an amplifier to clipping is exactly what's done when distorting an electric guitar. So yes, guitar amp manufacturers DO claim that all the time.

Most people find tubes to sound better when overdriven, and some people prefer the sound that tubes add to recorded music. So when comparing tubes and solid state, everyone should consider that amplifiers are used for different purposes and people have different preferences.

Well...not sure what you mean there. Typically, tubes are far more linear than ss devices. And a well designed tube amplifier can swing more voltage at it's output than ss designs, which helps portrayal of dynamics better. Tubes are voltage amplifiers, as opposed to ss devices being current amplifiers. Because of this, tubes require less negative feedback to make the circuit linear.

Oh, also, tubes distort with even-order harmonics (at their peak). These are described as less intrusive than odd-order harmonics. SS designs distort with odd-order harmonics (at their peak).

BRILLIANT!!!

LAFF - these are the same things that always get brought up with the amp challenge.

Well, I could be wrong, but it was my impression that taking the voltage as the audio signal, the input and output of solid state devices are generally closer than those of tubes. The difference the tubes add is what people like about their sound. But I don't claim to be an expert on the subject.

The whole warmth thing: maybe, just maybe it's not a warmth thing. Maybe that's how music should sound anyway...

I will reiterate something else you touched on: it depends on the music system as a whole. Achieving a "correct musical balance" is a very personal thing. I know my tastes have changed drastically in the last 20 years. We're all different and all seek to find what we believe is correct.

Me neither. It's a great hobby and I love learning more about it when I can.

As for you, Nelson: I hear ya. When things get boiled down to their basic components, they do very very similar things. *sigh*

You cant take away the emotional part of the equation though. There is something to be said for the feeling you get when you walk into a room that is heated by a pair of Krell monobloc amps. Or a dimly lit room with a set of tube amps glowing in the corner. Sex sells - and theres something 'sensual' about the whole thing.

Nelson -

If you are using anything other than the amplifier sections ripped from 2 mismatched clock radios for your listening pleasure, you are a hypocrite.

:p

soundmotor

Good one :thumbsup: Im not a Clarkie - I do agree with most of his assertions, but Im a sucker for the sex appeal :lol:

Would that include his endorsement of Monster Cable products too?

soundmotor

Not at all. And he no longer endorses them. I attended a seminar with David Navone when the two of them did endorese Monster - it was quite entertaining. BOSE and Monster Cable = Markineering at its best. :lol:

Clark is just another industry personality with something to sell. He's got his acolytes & detractors like the rest of them.

soundmotor