The Audiophile's Manifesto - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

brandon11983 · 06-09-2004, 10:36 PM

Today I learned more about audio in a few short hours than I have since I became obsessed with it. I learned first hand, that quality sound is purely subjective. What sounds good to you or the next guy may or may not sound good to me, and vise versa. I have heard a lot of good equipment in my short time as an aspiring audiophile. I've heard $22,400 Wilson WATT/Puppy 7's on a $60,000 Naim front end, $4,000 Von Schweikert's on a wonderful all tube Rogue front end, imposing Dynaudio's on pristine Mark Levinson Reference gear, and ultra articulate Focal.JMLab on Innersound. I was impressed by all of these at the time. Today I heard speakers like I have never heard before. And they sell for $599. They were a B&W DM603 S2. They are the largest in the 600 Series bookshelf speakers. They have a 7" Kevlar woofer, and 1" aluminum dome tweeter. They are in a front ported, bass reflex enclosure. I absolutely fell in love with their sound. I was as bold enough to call them the best sounding speakers that I have ever heard. And I know full well that I say that for all the wrong reasons. They may not be the most excruciatingly detailed speaker in the world, they may not be as accurate as the Wilson's or as linear as the Von Schweikert's, but I just love their sound. They are a bookshelf, so their low bass is rather lacking, but their midbass will make your eyes water. Very forceful and controlled, never sloppy. I was talking to Adam, my boss-type, as we were listening to them, telling him how the Von Schweikert's did go lower, but what the B&W's did do was much more powerful. Maybe thats wrong to like. Maybe the B&W's have too much midbass. I also liked the highs that they brought to the table. As some know (I'm looking at you juju...) I am a big fan of an aluminum dome tweeter. I like how they are just a little bit bright, but not shrill like a typical titanium dome. These had everything I was looking for in the highs department. Maybe that is wrong too, maybe they were too bright.... Cymbals were lifelike and present, and you can practically hear the fingers plucking acoustic guitar strings. I was also surprised at their ability to fill our moderately large listening room/sales floor with sound. My thoughts before were bookshelf=small sound for a small room. Needless to say, my viewpoint has been shifted. These had no trouble whatsoever in filling the room with accurate sound. They never really seemed to show their size. They remained very accurate at all volume levels. I was so impressed by these speakers, that I was ready to trade in my excellent Definitive BP-10's for the B&W's with stands right then and there. But alas, they have already been put up for sale on eBay, and the auction is near close with many bidders. The only concern I have at this point is how they would sound on solid state electronics. I never switched the 90wpc Rogue tube amp out for the 125wpc solid state Paraound Halo. You can rest assured that I will be doing that tomorrow before they are shipped out.

My final conclusion is that right or wrong, I absolutely loved the sound reproduced by a humble $600 bookshelf speaker. At long last, I have found my next speaker. Will it be the last? Certainly not. But it is all that I could have hoped for at this stage in my journey as an audiophile. I'm going to make a few phone calls to a B&W dealer that we get along with, and those will be mine in not much time at all. Are you proud of me juju?

hilbert25 · 06-10-2004, 09:37 PM

Glad you found something you loved. It doesn't matter the cost, when you've found your speakers then you're lucky.

It was the DM603S2? How does that compare to series 3? And have you heard B&W's before? They really are something to behold. I've been drooling over the CDM NT's for a long time now...

BadNick · 06-11-2004, 09:51 AM

Go back and check them a few more times on different days. Not that I doubt your conclusions, I've gone down a similar road as you described. What I mean is that I've come to appreciate that how something "sounds" depends a lot on how you feel at a particular time. To me the goal is to find something that you really like much of the time under a wide range of listening circumstances and moods. I don't mean different rooms, I mean how you feel.

I listen to music I love on my system and sometimes I just have to turn it off cause I hate it. But it's me, not the system or music. This is just one part of psycho-acoustics that depends more on emotion than physics.

brandon11983 · 06-11-2004, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hilbert25
It was the DM603S2? How does that compare to series 3? And have you heard B&W's before? They really are something to behold. I've been drooling over the CDM NT's for a long time now...

I couldn't address how they compare to the series 3, as I have never heard any. I have heard B&W's before, and I hated them. I heard a pair of Nautilus 802's about a year ago and was not impressed at all. They sounded rather dull and lifeless. It could have been the way they were set up though, the salesman was a bit of a dick and did not seem the least bit interested in dealing with me.

Quote:

Originally posted by BadNick
Go back and check them a few more times on different days. Not that I doubt your conclusions, I've gone down a similar road as you described. What I mean is that I've come to appreciate that how something "sounds" depends a lot on how you feel at a particular time. To me the goal is to find something that you really like much of the time under a wide range of listening circumstances and moods. I don't mean different rooms, I mean how you feel.

I listen to music I love on my system and sometimes I just have to turn it off cause I hate it. But it's me, not the system or music. This is just one part of psycho-acoustics that depends more on emotion than physics.

I can see your points here. I did listen to them all day yesterday. I put the solid state Parasound amp on them then. I like the sound of them much more on solid state than tube gear. After listening to them back and forth with the Von Schweikert VR-4jr's, I have noticed that the tweeter in the B&W's is pretty lively. The VR's use a "more refined" silk dome. At this point in my audiophile-dom, I just like the slight brightness that the aluminum dome in the B&W's had. I will reiterate again at how "non bookshelf" these sound. You really have to get after these things to get them to say "bookshelf" back at you. I drove them hard on a 125wpc THX Ultra2 certified amp and they handled it with no trouble whatsoever. Not so say they are invincible by any means, but I drove these to well above comfortable listening volumes with no audible strain coming from them. Because of the power sent to them by the superb amp, they sounded just as linear at low volumes. I wish I could have had more intimate time with them, but the auction closed, and I had to pack them up to be wisked away out of my life.

**moment of silence**

Thank you.

BadNick · 06-11-2004, 11:56 AM

I haven't heard the DM603 S2 but I'll go hear them soon just cause it's fun ...well I'm always shopping too

and I can hear them within the lunch time window of work.

But IMO that slight bright character you mention has been characteristic of most B&W's for as long as I've been listening to them, over 30 years. In the cases I've heard, I usually like it but then conclude I don't want to live with it. So I go for something that might be a different kind of distortion but is more generally pleasing to me.

shshshshh, hear the space, the sounds of silence:

hilbert25 · 06-11-2004, 08:02 PM

When I heard the DM series 3 bookshelves (the only DM series that I've heard), they did in fact seem rediculously strong in the midbass. I could have sworn they were tower's. Though, I would almost call them hybrids, since to me they seemed pretty close to the size of small towers.

You probably could get those for relatively cheap though. And what are you running now, maybe a tradein will work? But it may be better to not and never listen to them again, that way you'll always have the memories *sniff* *sniff*.

brandon11983 · 06-11-2004, 09:15 PM

If I can get them from a B&W dealer that we are friendly with, then I can hopefully get them at cost. If all goes as planned, our store will buy the B&W dealer, and then I'll be able to trade my speakers in for them and some nice stands. I'd still have some bank left with what my speakers are worth.

iamtheone · 06-18-2004, 03:59 AM

""B&W DM603 S2"""

I almost went with these, decided to use a full (powered bipolar) Definitive Tech 7.1 system instead. I do agree, nice soundstage.

iamtheone · 06-18-2004, 04:02 AM

Also, another nice set I liked was Energy speakers (Mirage). Very clean and bright, maybe a bit too bright. But, nevertheless great sounding speakers for very little price.

brandon11983 · 06-18-2004, 07:09 AM

Yes! Another Definitve fan! Aren't those amazing speakers? They are pretty reasonably priced and can hang with speakers costing many times more in terms of sound quality. I absolutely love mine. Which models did you go with?

**update** We finally found our new apartment and it is HUGE!! I have a big space that I'm going to set up my "entertainment mecca" in. And since I have a big room, big speakers are desired again. The B&W's are gone, we got our VR-2 demo's back, and their sound has really been growing on me. After listening to them, the differences in highs is quite negligible. I realize now just how bright the aluminum dome in the B&W's was. I guess I'm learning more. Now I like the refinement and clarity of the silk dome. What a journey! Interested parties may check out the VR-2's here. Transmission line again baby!! I'd get them in the blonde maple finish. The pictures do NOT do them justice, as the finish on these is absolutely beautiful in person.

iamtheone · 06-18-2004, 09:20 AM

I got the BP2000's with the matching c/l/r and 2 sets of the polished black BPX side/surrounds. I use Velodyne for my sub.

What do you have?

brandon11983 · 06-18-2004, 09:25 PM

I have a set of BP-10's. Non powered, dual 6.5" woofers and a pair of 1" aluminum dome tweeters.
Transmission line enclosure.

Did you get the powered C/L/R's? Those are amazing. It's very impressive what a powered center channel can do for the system. Even on vocals it adds a great deal of impact. A former co-worker of mine did a system consisting of C/L/R 3000's all the way around and a pair of their powered 15's. He said it was the only system he's ever set up that had bass like a car would.

iamtheone · 06-21-2004, 09:08 AM

Yeah, that sucker pumps out the bass that is for sure..... No, I did not get the powered centers, shit the one I got was spendy enough ; ) Plus, my amp pushes them quite well, cleanly.

Spanxxx · 07-01-2004, 06:58 AM

Iwas going to ask that when you get your new B&Ws, can you pass those Definitives this way?

I've long said that my next set of speakers would be Definitives. I fell in love with their "bang for the buck" years ago. Next house... next house ..that's what I keep telling myself. =)

brandon11983 · 07-01-2004, 10:00 AM

I ultimately decided against the B&W's after some more listening and after hearing the Von Schweikert VR-2's (see above). As much as I would like to spread the Definitive word, I'm trading mine in towards the VR-2's when the time comes. Sorry guy.

iamtheone · 07-02-2004, 04:18 AM

Brandon, did you get into multichannel audio?

What titles you listen to?

(Denon DVD-2900 - 30 SACD, 15 DVD-A)

My favs = Art Pepper, Bucky Pizzarelli, Pink Floyd and Chesky new demo disc. Not to mention the ones I make.

ubertuber · 07-02-2004, 06:26 PM

Some of the multi-channel SACD selections are AWESOME, at least for classical music. Seems like engineers got it through their heads that high definition multi-channel is great for recreating the concert experience. This is different from the old days of quad stereo where they did ridiculous stuff like put the four parts of a string quartet in the four speakers, leaving the listener sitting in the middle. What a joke - no surprise that idea never took off. The San Francisco Mahler cycle coming out now is particularly great. I'm definitely convinced. However, having to buy five audiofile quality speakers instead of two introduces a whole new level of expense.

brandon11983 · 07-06-2004, 07:24 PM

I have not gotten into hi-res audio. I probably will in the future, just to see what it is all about. I'm a 2 channel dork right now.

iamtheone · 07-07-2004, 03:00 PM

I really enjoy it. Now is the time to start checking it out, DVD-A moves ahead of SACD for the time being with big backers who will start selling "flip disc" - One side is your stereo layer the other side is the multichannel high res audio. C'mon SONY, don't get bit with your proprietary shit once again.

jujueye · 07-08-2004, 08:43 AM

Brandon, my friend. Very interesting thread. Sometimes the right speakers with the right supporting gear works wonders. This is how Jeff Joseph wins so many awards for Best Sound of Show: he knows what his speakers do right, and then makes sure to diesplay them that way. You obviously found a good combination with the B&Ws. If you do get a chance to sell them, you can display them in the same way with the same excitement. Cool.

I remember hearing the Totem Model 1 for the first time on a tube front end with a clean CD player. I was smitten and totally amazed. It took many more listens to realize what the reviews had pointed out about the spikes in the high end response (which was later changed in the updated version.) I ended up buying the Joseph Audio RM25si instead, due to their better bass response.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but I understand where you're coming from. You heard what the mfr intended, which is pretty rare. Cool!

sashime76 · 07-26-2004, 04:24 AM

I started working for Klipsch about 6 months ago, this will hit the market soon.
http://www.klipsch.com/news/feature.aspx?id=1253
Watching movies won't be the same again, ever!

brandon11983 · 07-26-2004, 09:33 PM

That system has been ready to go for years now. I don't know why their dumb asses haven't released them yet. I think their HTIB system will be bigger. That thing is going to be bad ass. I think its called like KES something. Like Klipsch Entertainment Solution. They're aiming for the Bose Lifestyle customer that is so willing to throw away $3500 for a piece of shit.

*edit* just found it: http://www.klipsch.com/news/press.aspx?cid=242

06-09-2004, 10:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	The Audiophile's Manifesto Today I learned more about audio in a few short hours than I have since I became obsessed with it. I learned first hand, that quality sound is purely subjective. What sounds good to you or the next guy may or may not sound good to me, and vise versa. I have heard a lot of good equipment in my short time as an aspiring audiophile. I've heard $22,400 Wilson WATT/Puppy 7's on a $60,000 Naim front end, $4,000 Von Schweikert's on a wonderful all tube Rogue front end, imposing Dynaudio's on pristine Mark Levinson Reference gear, and ultra articulate Focal.JMLab on Innersound. I was impressed by all of these at the time. Today I heard speakers like I have never heard before. And they sell for $599. They were a B&W DM603 S2. They are the largest in the 600 Series bookshelf speakers. They have a 7" Kevlar woofer, and 1" aluminum dome tweeter. They are in a front ported, bass reflex enclosure. I absolutely fell in love with their sound. I was as bold enough to call them the best sounding speakers that I have ever heard. And I know full well that I say that for all the wrong reasons. They may not be the most excruciatingly detailed speaker in the world, they may not be as accurate as the Wilson's or as linear as the Von Schweikert's, but I just love their sound. They are a bookshelf, so their low bass is rather lacking, but their midbass will make your eyes water. Very forceful and controlled, never sloppy. I was talking to Adam, my boss-type, as we were listening to them, telling him how the Von Schweikert's did go lower, but what the B&W's did do was much more powerful. Maybe thats wrong to like. Maybe the B&W's have too much midbass. I also liked the highs that they brought to the table. As some know (I'm looking at you juju...) I am a big fan of an aluminum dome tweeter. I like how they are just a little bit bright, but not shrill like a typical titanium dome. These had everything I was looking for in the highs department. Maybe that is wrong too, maybe they were too bright.... Cymbals were lifelike and present, and you can practically hear the fingers plucking acoustic guitar strings. I was also surprised at their ability to fill our moderately large listening room/sales floor with sound. My thoughts before were bookshelf=small sound for a small room. Needless to say, my viewpoint has been shifted. These had no trouble whatsoever in filling the room with accurate sound. They never really seemed to show their size. They remained very accurate at all volume levels. I was so impressed by these speakers, that I was ready to trade in my excellent Definitive BP-10's for the B&W's with stands right then and there. But alas, they have already been put up for sale on eBay, and the auction is near close with many bidders. The only concern I have at this point is how they would sound on solid state electronics. I never switched the 90wpc Rogue tube amp out for the 125wpc solid state Paraound Halo. You can rest assured that I will be doing that tomorrow before they are shipped out. My final conclusion is that right or wrong, I absolutely loved the sound reproduced by a humble $600 bookshelf speaker. At long last, I have found my next speaker. Will it be the last? Certainly not. But it is all that I could have hoped for at this stage in my journey as an audiophile. I'm going to make a few phone calls to a B&W dealer that we get along with, and those will be mine in not much time at all. Are you proud of me juju? __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history. Last edited by brandon11983; 06-09-2004 at 10:39 PM..

06-11-2004, 09:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	If I can get them from a B&W dealer that we are friendly with, then I can hopefully get them at cost. If all goes as planned, our store will buy the B&W dealer, and then I'll be able to trade my speakers in for them and some nice stands. I'd still have some bank left with what my speakers are worth. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

06-18-2004, 03:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
iamtheone Psychoholic Location: Ein tov she'ein bo ra!	""B&W DM603 S2""" I almost went with these, decided to use a full (powered bipolar) Definitive Tech 7.1 system instead. I do agree, nice soundstage. __________________ Music is holy, art is sacred, and creativity is power... Think for Yourself Question Authority

06-18-2004, 04:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
iamtheone Psychoholic Location: Ein tov she'ein bo ra!	Also, another nice set I liked was Energy speakers (Mirage). Very clean and bright, maybe a bit too bright. But, nevertheless great sounding speakers for very little price. __________________ Music is holy, art is sacred, and creativity is power... Think for Yourself Question Authority

06-18-2004, 07:09 AM	#10 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	Yes! Another Definitve fan! Aren't those amazing speakers? They are pretty reasonably priced and can hang with speakers costing many times more in terms of sound quality. I absolutely love mine. Which models did you go with? update We finally found our new apartment and it is HUGE!! I have a big space that I'm going to set up my "entertainment mecca" in. And since I have a big room, big speakers are desired again. The B&W's are gone, we got our VR-2 demo's back, and their sound has really been growing on me. After listening to them, the differences in highs is quite negligible. I realize now just how bright the aluminum dome in the B&W's was. I guess I'm learning more. Now I like the refinement and clarity of the silk dome. What a journey! Interested parties may check out the VR-2's here. Transmission line again baby!! I'd get them in the blonde maple finish. The pictures do NOT do them justice, as the finish on these is absolutely beautiful in person. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

06-10-2004, 09:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
hilbert25 Psycho Location: nOvA	Glad you found something you loved. It doesn't matter the cost, when you've found your speakers then you're lucky. It was the DM603S2? How does that compare to series 3? And have you heard B&W's before? They really are something to behold. I've been drooling over the CDM NT's for a long time now...

06-11-2004, 09:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	Go back and check them a few more times on different days. Not that I doubt your conclusions, I've gone down a similar road as you described. What I mean is that I've come to appreciate that how something "sounds" depends a lot on how you feel at a particular time. To me the goal is to find something that you really like much of the time under a wide range of listening circumstances and moods. I don't mean different rooms, I mean how you feel. I listen to music I love on my system and sometimes I just have to turn it off cause I hate it. But it's me, not the system or music. This is just one part of psycho-acoustics that depends more on emotion than physics.

06-11-2004, 11:56 AM	#5 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	I haven't heard the DM603 S2 but I'll go hear them soon just cause it's fun ...well I'm always shopping too and I can hear them within the lunch time window of work. But IMO that slight bright character you mention has been characteristic of most B&W's for as long as I've been listening to them, over 30 years. In the cases I've heard, I usually like it but then conclude I don't want to live with it. So I go for something that might be a different kind of distortion but is more generally pleasing to me. shshshshh, hear the space, the sounds of silence:

06-11-2004, 08:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
hilbert25 Psycho Location: nOvA	When I heard the DM series 3 bookshelves (the only DM series that I've heard), they did in fact seem rediculously strong in the midbass. I could have sworn they were tower's. Though, I would almost call them hybrids, since to me they seemed pretty close to the size of small towers. You probably could get those for relatively cheap though. And what are you running now, maybe a tradein will work? But it may be better to not and never listen to them again, that way you'll always have the memories sniff sniff.

06-18-2004, 09:20 AM	#11 (permalink)
iamtheone Psychoholic Location: Ein tov she'ein bo ra!	I got the BP2000's with the matching c/l/r and 2 sets of the polished black BPX side/surrounds. I use Velodyne for my sub. What do you have? __________________ Music is holy, art is sacred, and creativity is power... Think for Yourself Question Authority Last edited by iamtheone; 06-18-2004 at 09:39 AM..

06-18-2004, 09:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	I have a set of BP-10's. Non powered, dual 6.5" woofers and a pair of 1" aluminum dome tweeters. Transmission line enclosure. Did you get the powered C/L/R's? Those are amazing. It's very impressive what a powered center channel can do for the system. Even on vocals it adds a great deal of impact. A former co-worker of mine did a system consisting of C/L/R 3000's all the way around and a pair of their powered 15's. He said it was the only system he's ever set up that had bass like a car would. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

06-21-2004, 09:08 AM	#13 (permalink)
iamtheone Psychoholic Location: Ein tov she'ein bo ra!	Yeah, that sucker pumps out the bass that is for sure..... No, I did not get the powered centers, shit the one I got was spendy enough ; ) Plus, my amp pushes them quite well, cleanly. __________________ Music is holy, art is sacred, and creativity is power... Think for Yourself Question Authority

07-01-2004, 06:58 AM	#14 (permalink)
Spanxxx Psycho Location: Under my roof	Iwas going to ask that when you get your new B&Ws, can you pass those Definitives this way? I've long said that my next set of speakers would be Definitives. I fell in love with their "bang for the buck" years ago. Next house... next house ..that's what I keep telling myself. =) __________________ I think that's what they mean by "nickels a day can feed a child." I thought, "How could food be so cheap over there?" It's not, they just eat nickels. - (supposedly) Peter Nguyen, internet hero

07-01-2004, 10:00 AM	#15 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	I ultimately decided against the B&W's after some more listening and after hearing the Von Schweikert VR-2's (see above). As much as I would like to spread the Definitive word, I'm trading mine in towards the VR-2's when the time comes. Sorry guy. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

07-02-2004, 04:18 AM	#16 (permalink)
iamtheone Psychoholic Location: Ein tov she'ein bo ra!	Brandon, did you get into multichannel audio? What titles you listen to? (Denon DVD-2900 - 30 SACD, 15 DVD-A) My favs = Art Pepper, Bucky Pizzarelli, Pink Floyd and Chesky new demo disc. Not to mention the ones I make. __________________ Music is holy, art is sacred, and creativity is power... Think for Yourself Question Authority

07-02-2004, 06:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Some of the multi-channel SACD selections are AWESOME, at least for classical music. Seems like engineers got it through their heads that high definition multi-channel is great for recreating the concert experience. This is different from the old days of quad stereo where they did ridiculous stuff like put the four parts of a string quartet in the four speakers, leaving the listener sitting in the middle. What a joke - no surprise that idea never took off. The San Francisco Mahler cycle coming out now is particularly great. I'm definitely convinced. However, having to buy five audiofile quality speakers instead of two introduces a whole new level of expense. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

07-06-2004, 07:24 PM	#18 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	I have not gotten into hi-res audio. I probably will in the future, just to see what it is all about. I'm a 2 channel dork right now. __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.

07-07-2004, 03:00 PM	#19 (permalink)
iamtheone Psychoholic Location: Ein tov she'ein bo ra!	I really enjoy it. Now is the time to start checking it out, DVD-A moves ahead of SACD for the time being with big backers who will start selling "flip disc" - One side is your stereo layer the other side is the multichannel high res audio. C'mon SONY, don't get bit with your proprietary shit once again. __________________ Music is holy, art is sacred, and creativity is power... Think for Yourself Question Authority

07-08-2004, 08:43 AM	#20 (permalink)
jujueye alpaca lunch for the trip Location: in my computer	Brandon, my friend. Very interesting thread. Sometimes the right speakers with the right supporting gear works wonders. This is how Jeff Joseph wins so many awards for Best Sound of Show: he knows what his speakers do right, and then makes sure to diesplay them that way. You obviously found a good combination with the B&Ws. If you do get a chance to sell them, you can display them in the same way with the same excitement. Cool. I remember hearing the Totem Model 1 for the first time on a tube front end with a clean CD player. I was smitten and totally amazed. It took many more listens to realize what the reviews had pointed out about the spikes in the high end response (which was later changed in the updated version.) I ended up buying the Joseph Audio RM25si instead, due to their better bass response. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I understand where you're coming from. You heard what the mfr intended, which is pretty rare. Cool!

07-26-2004, 04:24 AM	#21 (permalink)
sashime76 Addict Location: Hoosier State	I started working for Klipsch about 6 months ago, this will hit the market soon. http://www.klipsch.com/news/feature.aspx?id=1253 Watching movies won't be the same again, ever!

07-26-2004, 09:33 PM	#22 (permalink)
brandon11983 Stereophonic Location: Chitown!!	That system has been ready to go for years now. I don't know why their dumb asses haven't released them yet. I think their HTIB system will be bigger. That thing is going to be bad ass. I think its called like KES something. Like Klipsch Entertainment Solution. They're aiming for the Bose Lifestyle customer that is so willing to throw away $3500 for a piece of shit. edit just found it: http://www.klipsch.com/news/press.aspx?cid=242 __________________ Well behaved women rarely make history.