Tech certifications

[pixelbend]

I have been a Systems Analyst at a smallish company for about 11 years now. I am getting to the point where moving may be in my near future (probably the Austin, TX area) and I'm wondering how difficult it is going to be finding a new job.

I have a lot of experience in networks, hardware, servers of various flavors, VoIP, web coding and management, database management, etc. BUT, my actual degree is in Art (graphic design to be specific). Although I have taken a lot of CS and IS classes, I don't have any degrees or certifications in this area.

My question is, do I need to look into certifications and if so which ones? I think I can get through A+ without much trouble, but is it worth anything? Network+?

Thanks guys

[meanSpleen]

If you're a Systems Analyst, and probably going to be in the same function when you move, an A+ cert will probably not help you at all. It is too low level for what you are already doing.

I would focus on the experience you already have on hand. 11 years of work must have yielded a lot of different functions and projects, regardless of company size. You can sell yourself based on what you know, as experience usually outdoes certifications any day of the week.

[Cynthetiq]

echoing meanspleen... real world trumps a cert any day. 11 years is nothing to sneeze at especially the past 11 years.

[Lasereth]

The certifications and even the degree most likely won't be a problem. 11 years of experience is what employers want. I had to apply for 275 jobs before I got mine because I had no work experience (I was straight out of college with an IS degree). All they wanted was experience. You should be fine.

[kurty[B]]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

echoing meanspleen... real world trumps a cert any day. 11 years is nothing to sneeze at especially the past 11 years.

To quote everyone else. Experience is the ticket. An A+, or Net+ certification will actually hinder your application in some places where an employer may think "Wow, he actually thinks that will help him out".

If you're looking at certs to expound your experience then decide what you want to go for. Network administration, go for a CCNA. Systems administration, go for a MCSE.

[Leto]

Originally Posted by Lasereth

The certifications and even the degree most likely won't be a problem. 11 years of experience is what employers want. I had to apply for 275 jobs before I got mine because I had no work experience (I was straight out of college with an IS degree). All they wanted was experience. You should be fine.

I'm curious, was it just chance that the 276th application did the trick? If you had applied at that particular place in the first group of, let's say 10, would you have gotten it at that point?

Or was there a progression that really required you to apply to so many places?

[pixelbend]

Thanks for all the info guys. Good to know my experience is going to back me up in the workplace. I think I may go for CCNA. Is a study/prep book sufficient prep for the test?

[xepherys]

Just another toss into the mix saying the same thing. Unless you are going for a high-level cert for a specific job function, it's not worth it. CompTIA certs are all but useless unless it's your first IT job. Even Microsoft certs are sorta meh. If you want to move into Networking, than Cisco certs can never hurt. If you are doing process analysis or want to work in the healthcare industry, then there are certain certs which can help, such as HIPPA training on the healthcare side and CISSP (or other (ISC)^2 certs) on the security systems side.

All of the above take a great deal of training and $$$ for exams, especially on the ISC^2 side. But, as was said above, experience generally trumps all.

[Lasereth]

Originally Posted by Leto

I'm curious, was it just chance that the 276th application did the trick? If you had applied at that particular place in the first group of, let's say 10, would you have gotten it at that point?

Or was there a progression that really required you to apply to so many places?

I applied for 275 jobs. The one that I finally got was among the first 10 I applied for...it's just that the application process of working at a police department is truly incredible and takes a loooong time. So basically, I got my job after applying for 10 but didn't know it until after I had applied for 275.

[Redjake]

Graduated with a 3.83 cumulative overall GPA, and a 3.98 major GPA - President of Association of Information Technology Professionals, all that good stuff - major of Computer Information Systems with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration -


and no one gave a fuck. The interviews went like this: No experience, you say? Hmmmm....... *eye brows crease*

Internships and related job experience would have helped me so damn much!

I got one job offer, and I took it. Experience trumps all in this area. I work in the IT department of a major financial institution, and many of my coworkers don't have a Bachelor's degree, Associate's degree, or any certifications - they just have 20 years of IT experience. And they are making a LOT.

[robot_parade]

Originally Posted by pixelbend

Thanks for all the info guys. Good to know my experience is going to back me up in the workplace. I think I may go for CCNA. Is a study/prep book sufficient prep for the test?

Depends on how good you are. :-)

I would at least take a recommended prep book for whatever test you take. Whether you need more really just depends.

I agree with the others that say that, for your level, A+ and Network+ are nothing. CCNA is a little better. MCSE is somewhere in between - hard enough that you have to actually put a little effort into it, but easy enough that there are a billion schlubs out there with it, especially with the certification 'industry'.

When you get an interview (which can be hard enough to get to), be sure you've practiced up on your interview skills. Be confident, but not cocky. Talk about things that *you* personally did. Not "I was on a team that implemented X, Y, and Z", but "I set up Y, which was part of project Q, which had effect D on the company's bottom line." Things that you did, the results, and why you did them (were you a leader, or a follower?).

Oh, and don't lie. Unless you're really good at it.

[kurty[B]]

Originally Posted by robot_parade

When you get an interview (which can be hard enough to get to), be sure you've practiced up on your interview skills. Be confident, but not cocky. Talk about things that *you* personally did. Not "I was on a team that implemented X, Y, and Z", but "I set up Y, which was part of project Q, which had effect D on the company's bottom line." Things that you did, the results, and why you did them (were you a leader, or a follower?).

Exactly! I got more pluses on interviews talking about using my IT skills to negotiate repairing a company vehicle when there was no service contract for it in trade for helping that auto repair company's PCs operate faster (by clearing out viri on their PCs). This impressed HR interviewers more than "I helped establish the guest network in a 300+ room conference center hotel, and ensure complete functionality of said network".

[ticket]

I have been in IT for about 25 years. I have lost more certs than I can remember. Most of mine have been for various flavors of unix. The problem with those is that the certifications expire, and they are expensive to keep up to date, and not nearly as useful as OTJ experience. But I would include them on your resume if you have some behind you. If not, wait and get them on the employers dime.

Be prepared to talk at length about specific projects you handled, the difficulties you overcame, and the benefits it provided your employers, coworkers, and yourself. Interviewing is an art in itself, and you get much better at it as you go thru the process. The problem is you may be unprepared and caught off guard on early interviews for great jobs, and you only get one shot. You learn a lot when they ask you those questions you know you should have rehearsed but you did not, and they will!

Your employment history will definitely help, so review your entire career, and make notes of your accomplishments, and be ready to sell yourself.

[pixelbend]

Starting this thread has made me go back and redo me entire resume, so I find myself trying to enumerate all of my accomplishments over the years. I suppose that is a good exercise to go through every so often, even if you are not planning on looking for a career change.

Going back over everything made me realize a big thing I had missed. A couple of years ago, I started a consulting business, mainly so I could do Mac work for a local hospital's marketing department. I can't believe I forgot to put that down on my resume.

I still may go for the CCNA, if for nothing more than the learning experience.

[robot_parade]

Originally Posted by pixelbend

Starting this thread has made me go back and redo me entire resume, so I find myself trying to enumerate all of my accomplishments over the years. I suppose that is a good exercise to go through every so often, even if you are not planning on looking for a career change.

Going back over everything made me realize a big thing I had missed. A couple of years ago, I started a consulting business, mainly so I could do Mac work for a local hospital's marketing department. I can't believe I forgot to put that down on my resume.

I still may go for the CCNA, if for nothing more than the learning experience.

Another thing to keep in mind is that more recent experiences tend to get more weight than older stuff. So provide the most detail about your more recent gigs, and the biggest, most impressive things about older ones. And while I'm thinking of it, have a good answer for any gaps in employment.

[Mephisto2]

Originally Posted by pixelbend

I still may go for the CCNA, if for nothing more than the learning experience.

CCNA is good.

CCDA is better.

CCNP is better still.

CCDP is better again.

CCIE is best.


Start at CCNA, and work your way up.

Don't even think of aiming for the CCIE without some serious background in networking though.


Despite what everyone on this thread says, certifications help. Your experience is paramount though. Make sure to enumerate and detail your skills, achievements and responsibilities on your Curriculum Vitae. Be honest. Don't exaggerate. It will be noticed.


Mr Mephisto

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

CCNA is good.

CCDA is better.

CCNP is better still.

CCDP is better again.

CCIE is best.


Start at CCNA, and work your way up.

Don't even think of aiming for the CCIE without some serious background in networking though.


Despite what everyone on this thread says, certifications help. Your experience is paramount though. Make sure to enumerate and detail your skills, achievements and responsibilities on your Curriculum Vitae. Be honest. Don't exaggerate. It will be noticed.


Mr Mephisto

nice to see you again!

yes, certs can tip the scales if someone else with 11 years experience and he's got certs and you don't.

[Jinn]

I'd take someone with 11 years over someone with 5 years and a certification. Education is important to prove you can do the job; once you've been doing the job, it's generally very obvious if you know what you're doing, cert or not.

I'd vote no on the cert, unless you have time and money to spare.

[pixelbend]

Thanks for the advice everyone. As I'm really not going to be thinking of moving for another year or so, I have the time, but more than that I really would like the knowledge. I have a good grasp of networking and security, but I can't help but imagine I probably have gaping holes too.

Plus, it seems impressive to have acronyms after your email signature

Can anyone recommend any good CCNA books (preferably with a lab work CD included)?

[pixelbend]

Well, it's been a year since I started this thread and a lot of crap has gone on.

Long story short, I haven't had time (or made time) to really hammer down on the CCNA. But I did decide to go ahead and start on some certifications that I can get under my belt quickly.

So today I took the second test for A+. I got an 880/900 on both tests and am now A+ certified. My plan is now to move on and get Network+ and Security+, then move on to CCNA.

Anyone have any experience with these?

[LordEden]

Did you not find any work in your field even with your experience? It seems like if you could market yourself right, you could find some kind of IT job. Was no one biting with your resume?

[pixelbend]

I have had some bites, but most of them in this area were entry level jobs. We had a family emergency (father in law had cancer) last year so moving was out and I have been relatively content to stay where I am.

Now I am trying to get back on track. One place I am looking (and would appreciate any feedback on) is military installation IT contracting. A friend's uncle is a contractor and I may sign on with him. I have talked to some ex-military personnel about it and they seem to think it would be a good arrangement, but I don't know anyone who has actually done it. But the pay seems good.

That is what actually spurred me to go ahead with A+. The contractors require it.

[robot_parade]

Congrats on passing the A+. Fwiw, I took an ICND course a few months ago and it was a lot of fun - I didn't take the test because it wouldn't really help with my job description (programmer).

[telekinetic]

Originally Posted by pixelbend

Thanks for all the info guys. Good to know my experience is going to back me up in the workplace. I think I may go for CCNA. Is a study/prep book sufficient prep for the test?

I know this thread is long long ago, but I know someone with no prior work experience making the same money with a CCNA cert that I make with my bachelors in mechanical engieering...it's all about what job you can get.

[pixelbend]

Originally Posted by robot_parade

Congrats on passing the A+. Fwiw, I took an ICND course a few months ago and it was a lot of fun - I didn't take the test because it wouldn't really help with my job description (programmer).

That's the route I'm really thinking about taking for the CCNA.

1. Get my A+ (done) and maybe Network+ and Security+
2. Get a higher paying job
3. Take a ICND class, so I can get some experience on real equipment.
4. Profit?

[LordEden]

Network+ overlaps a lot in the CCNA book. You also need access to a cisco router to be able to access it via SSH or telnet so that you can get practice with the command line commands. Get ready for a challenge, CCNA and the following certs are no joke. A+ is a walk in the park compared that CCNA.

Really, I wouldn't see companies caring about A+ or net+ for the type of jobs you (apparently) want. Certs are for people without experience, if you have experience, go with that.

Most of the guys on this board who have mid-level to high-end IT jobs don't have certs. Guys like me have to get certs because we don't have the experience to get any jobs other than entry level stuff.

The certs you are talking about are not for the type of work you are looking for. Seems like a waste of time for someone with your experience (if you are not blowing smoke up our collective asses about what you did at your last job).

*****

As for military contractors for IT, only jobs I know for that are for overseas. They have the people (internally) or contracting from a big company for their IT stuff in the US. Also, if you did get a job like that, they would be shipping you all over the place to get training and work on equipment. Doesn't seem that good for someone with a family who doesn't want to move.

[pixelbend]

I promise to be smokeless where your collective butts are concerned. I am still at that job, still toiling away.

My concern has been, that while looking at the job market there are a lot of jobs that, while they don't seem to "need" Network+ or CCNA certs, they still ask for them an awful lot. That is what really made me look at A+ in the first place. I don't need it, I didn't really learn anything from the week I spend studying for the test, but jobs I have been looking at require it. Granted, those are military contracting jobs and the government is more apt to look at the letters behind your name than the rest of your resume.

Maybe I just haven't sent enough resumes out yet to really get a good idea of the job market. Jeebus knows that I haven't been in the loop for a while, but it seems to me that anything that can help me stand out from the crowd is a good thing.

[Martian]

Getting certified is never a bad idea, no matter how much experience you have. At worst it might end up being a little redundant, but I know guys who have been in the field for fifteen years or more who've decided to go back for certification. If it's what you need to do to advance, then do it.

Congrats on passing your A+. Sadly it's completely worthless, but I guess you can pat yourself on the back for kicking that exam's ass so thoroughly.

CompTIA certifications are useless for someone in your position. They're only marginally worthwhile to begin with.

Microsoft certifications are more useful for the young 'uns, but if you've been in the field professionally for over a decade you won't need any of them either.

CCNA is what you should be looking at. Don't bother with CCNP or CCIE unless your employer's going to pay for it -- the coursework is brutal and they're both stupid expensive. CCNA is enough for 98% of the positions you'd be going for anyway.

So yeah. ICND is probably where you want to be right now. Skip all the rest of it, it's all crap.

[xepherys]

I agree with Martian (and think I said the same thing a year or two ago i nthis thread) that CompTIA stuff is useless. i got my A+ in, oh... 1998 maybe? It's laughable. I have 15 years of IT experience now, though.

Also, like Martian said, Cisco certs are really the only ones worth paying to learn/certify in. I had my CCNA until it lapsed while I was deployed. It was handy, and also actually felt like a mild accomplishment. Net+ MAY help you progress toward a CCNA, but I think it's a waste, personally.

[WinchesterAA]

Hey, Robot_Parade, regarding your statement to be prepared to have a good explanation for gaps in employment history --

Assume I want to be a developer, perhaps for a kickass video game company or whatever programmer heaven looks like, or perhaps I want to be part of a research and development firm that explores different ways of doing something, in order to find the best way to do that thing.

I've had 3 different types of jobs in the 5 years of my total work history.

Pizza delivery for a year, off 6 months, pizza delivery for 6 months, off 6 months, pizza delivery for 6 months, off 6 months, cable technician for a year, off for a year.

Although, in every case, 80(+/- 5)% of the time off has been dedicated to brute force self-education combined with institutional learning, and the rest for anything else (including free time, time with the girl, and time to fix things that aren't in-line with the education or business.)

Starting at the end of the cable tech business was my independent business of running cable, phone, and internet lines, and soon to be expanded to residential technical services ranging from system building, repair, and modification to disinfecting, backing up, and restoring systems currently in place, personal customizations, etc. (really, my style is built to allow the customer to add more tasks to the order, including tasks that are mostly unrelated to the original task. -- I get more market share that way, the customer views me as something of a golden goose, and I can handle that position. < -- that being the main one)

Also, on top of that I just had the fortune of meeting a good friend who needed a database, and I've since embarked on a new line of work involving databases and politics. I've already made a few friends, and future business opportunities should be available as soon as I've come up with the proposals, and adequately prepared for follow-through.


How does my personal way of doing business look to an employer? Obviously it expresses a lack of focus on anything specific, but I counter that argument with a broader focus involving acceptance that not everything is a great idea, and some things, though great ideas they may be, don't need to be done by me forever. In this way, I do many things very well, but in small doses at a time to minimize the effects of absolute failure and/or burn-out.

I would describe it as "trickle-charging" my experience in a controlled environment.

I don't know that I'll ever apply for another "job" type of job, wherein my duties are explicitly outlined, and payments based on formal conditions. I do pretty well when entirely separated from that model. I am curious, however, what it would be like in the event that I did apply for a job I really wanted.

"So you say you pretty much said fuck the normal way, and set off on an ad-hoc quest for financial stability? Why'd you come here, then?"

Shit, I want the job!

[robot_parade]

Originally Posted by WinchesterAA

Hey, Robot_Parade, regarding your statement to be prepared to have a good explanation for gaps in employment history --

Assume I want to be a developer, perhaps for a kickass video game company or whatever programmer heaven looks like, or perhaps I want to be part of a research and development firm that explores different ways of doing something, in order to find the best way to do that thing.

I've had 3 different types of jobs in the 5 years of my total work history.

Pizza delivery for a year, off 6 months, pizza delivery for 6 months, off 6 months, pizza delivery for 6 months, off 6 months, cable technician for a year, off for a year.

Although, in every case, 80(+/- 5)% of the time off has been dedicated to brute force self-education combined with institutional learning, and the rest for anything else (including free time, time with the girl, and time to fix things that aren't in-line with the education or business.)

Starting at the end of the cable tech business was my independent business of running cable, phone, and internet lines, and soon to be expanded to residential technical services ranging from system building, repair, and modification to disinfecting, backing up, and restoring systems currently in place, personal customizations, etc. (really, my style is built to allow the customer to add more tasks to the order, including tasks that are mostly unrelated to the original task. -- I get more market share that way, the customer views me as something of a golden goose, and I can handle that position. < -- that being the main one)

Also, on top of that I just had the fortune of meeting a good friend who needed a database, and I've since embarked on a new line of work involving databases and politics. I've already made a few friends, and future business opportunities should be available as soon as I've come up with the proposals, and adequately prepared for follow-through.


How does my personal way of doing business look to an employer? Obviously it expresses a lack of focus on anything specific, but I counter that argument with a broader focus involving acceptance that not everything is a great idea, and some things, though great ideas they may be, don't need to be done by me forever. In this way, I do many things very well, but in small doses at a time to minimize the effects of absolute failure and/or burn-out.

I would describe it as "trickle-charging" my experience in a controlled environment.

I don't know that I'll ever apply for another "job" type of job, wherein my duties are explicitly outlined, and payments based on formal conditions. I do pretty well when entirely separated from that model. I am curious, however, what it would be like in the event that I did apply for a job I really wanted.

"So you say you pretty much said fuck the normal way, and set off on an ad-hoc quest for financial stability? Why'd you come here, then?"

Shit, I want the job!

I think all that is fine - essentially you're either an "independent contractor" or a "technology consultant", and have worked with a number of different technologies. On a resume I'd recommend you spin things in a more organized and 'intentional-sounding' than you lay it out here. Don't lie or anything, but when you're self employed, or a contractor or consultant, you don't have to explicitly list when you were or were not working 100% of the time "2004-2009 - technology consultant, doing x, y, and z for <partial list or description of companies>". I wouldn't mention the pizza delivery thing on a resume for a technology job. Nothing wrong with delivering pizza, it just isn't relevant.