Legal Piracy: Went legit, does that matter in the end? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

j0hnb · 11-09-2006, 07:18 AM

In short, I am a college student that used various pirated software as a learning experience, Photoshop, and Dreamweaver. I was using pirated software because I couldn't afford the real thing. Since then I have gone completely legit. This was about a year ago. I have an ex-employer who is threatening me with reporting me for that piracy. What is my risk factor? I assume/know I can still get it trouble for the software I used in the past. But would it be nearly as bad now that I have turned legit?

Toaster126 · 11-09-2006, 07:33 AM

Why would an ex-employer threaten that?

I'm sorry I can't be of any help really, as far as the legal stuff. I doubt that the fact that you've stopped protects you from copyright infringment you've already done, though.

j0hnb · 11-09-2006, 07:46 AM

Yea, I know that stopping isn't going to protect me at all.

Well I guess I might as well explain the full story. I worked as a freelance graphic artist and webmaster for a local business owner. I worked daily for him for about a year and a half. Sadly with my personality I hate asking for money even if I have worked for it. He acted like a friend and kept putting off paying me. He would give me small amounts to hold me over and keep me working. He later gave me stock in his company instead of paying me as he had promised. I know I should have gotten a contract in writing, we had a verbal agreement, but in the end it's his words against mine. So a year or so later, when I decided that I had had enough, and I left. He got really pissed at me when I took his website down. I had been hosting it till that point and paying for it out of my pocket. I asked for the money I deserved, and followed by asking for him to buy the stock back, which it states in the stock contract that he would. He laughed in my face and said some things that were quite hurtful. No real need to go into detail there.

Law runs in my family, so I went over the situation with them, and I was informed that I would take some legal action and not let him walk over me like that. So we went the legal road, and I have only asked and went after what I deserved and what I can prove that he owes me. Which is roughly around 7k in cash and I have over 14k in stock shares.

In effort for me to settle out for a price that is like an 8th of what I worked for he is using the pirated info against me. I was unable to afford the legit software because he wasn't paying me. He paid me enough to help me with my rent and food.

That is the basics of it, there is a lot more. His lies to me, how he faked a lot of the information he is claiming. How he lied on his taxes about what he paid me, and how he lied to all the stock holders when he send out a stock booklet showing how many shares were out there. Showing 100% of them and all that, but by shares are no where to be found in that info. So I have a lot to get back at him, but I'm trying not to play the game at his level. I just want to know what I would be up against if he were to in the end report me.

In the end I have only really used 3 or so pieces of pirated software, would they even take the time to deal with someone as low on the pirated chain as me?

Dilbert1234567 · 11-09-2006, 07:48 AM

Did you sell or market the work you did with the pirated software, I think (no legal degree) that you would be more likely to be prosecuted if you did. Is there any evidence that you did? If you’ve gone legit, there should be no real evidence to go on. I’m sure if you are called on it by the company, and say, I have licenses for all the software I am using, they would probably back off, as long as you have proof, it would not be worth there time because they would most likely lose.

Again, I have no legal degree.

j0hnb · 11-09-2006, 07:57 AM

I did work for his company, and was paid for it. Even if I wasn't paid what we agreed I was still paid, so it could be considered as if I used it for profit. My system is clean, the problem lies in the files of all my past work. I'm not sure if Adobe stores any identification information in the Hex of the files created with their software.

As far as them being able to recover any of the pirated information. I have shredded the data on my drive far past the recoverable rate. So they should be unable to find any information from that. But like I said if there is any information stored in the files they could pull it from those. I can't really delete the work that I did for them, because if we end up going to court I would then have no proof of the work that I did, because all copies would have been deleted. If we went to court I would have to be able to prove that I was the creator of the works if I want to get paid for what I have done.

I have given contact information to my attorney, to have him send a letter to the companies to see what their response on the subject it. But I don't know how long it will take to get a response and the more I think about it the more nervous I get.

shakran · 11-09-2006, 08:14 AM

how about you both call it even?

He stole labor from you.

You stole software from Adobe.

You both gained, and you both lost.

j0hnb · 11-09-2006, 08:20 AM

I made it even with Adobe. I now own legit versions of 7 of their applications. Though I only use 3 or so of them, if I even have a thought of using one I now have it.

Normally I would be a person ok with calling it even. But I never really gained anything. I would be glad to call it even once I get what I have worked for. That is all I am asking, is for what I earned. The pay we agreed on for the hours I can prove. I know I worked a lot more than I can prove I did, but I am only asking for what I can prove.

I don't play on playing it at his level. I could be mean and turn him in for his lies on his taxes. Or the company lies about the stock. Or even about pirated software he asked me to install for him, which i didn't, so he had someone else do it. But I have no plans on being that kind of person.

Like I said, i'm not out to screw him, just get what I worked for.

Dilbert1234567 · 11-09-2006, 08:21 AM

Were you an employee, or an independent contractor? Ask your attorney and ask if your old boss is also liable for the damages caused.

j0hnb · 11-09-2006, 08:28 AM

I was an independent contractor for a long time, then I was added as an employee. Didn't think about the seeing if I could toss the liability off on him. I'll have to look into that one.

Willravel · 11-09-2006, 08:55 AM

I had a boss try to blackmail me once. I started dating his daughter and it went away.

Daniel_ · 11-09-2006, 12:31 PM

Seems to me that unless he's got incontrovertible proof he's just going to make himself look stupid in court.

YOU: He owes me $21k

HIM: This is true your honor, but he stole software from Adobe.

JUDGE: Meh!

j0hnb · 11-09-2006, 12:36 PM

Pretty much. Just don't want it to ever get that far. But I would like to know what i'm getting myself into if it does.

NotAnAlias · 11-09-2006, 01:42 PM

Daniel speaks the truth, whether or not the software was legitimate at the time is irrelevant to the case at hand. It might be more relevant for a separate case in which adobe come hunt you down. Which won't happen.

You own 7 legit licenses of their software, they won in the end, his threat has no relevance, take him to the cleaners because he has fucked you up.

Good luck :<

cyrnel · 11-09-2006, 02:06 PM

Agreed. Many users learn with "borrowed ware." If you were milking the system or supplying you could become a target, but you own valid licenses. They'll say thank you and put his complaint in the disgruntled box. Nobody will come after you. Call his BS.

I'm curious if local law enforcement would be interested in the blackmail aspect.

vanblah · 11-09-2006, 02:44 PM

You have to ask yourself if there is any way for this guy to PROVE that you used the software illegally. If he can't prove it (and it's going to be hard) then you have nothing to worry about.

Of course, you're on here claiming that you did steal the software. Despite the fact that this is a semi-private forum, it is still searchable.

I'd see if you can talk with a lawyer about it. It won't cost too much on the front-end and you may even find someone willing to just do it pro bono. However, you get what you pay for.

bendsley · 11-09-2006, 03:31 PM

I would go after your old boss for the money that you are owed. I agree with cyrnel above saying that the adobe software matter is something all together different. Any court I would imagine would seperate the two. He can't really do anything to you about the Adobe software because he wasn't hurt by it, Adobe was. Get your money from your old boss, then deal with Adobe if they come after you.

If Adobe decides to come after you, which I highly doubt they will, seeing as how a lawsuit against one person would cost them a great deal of money (more than the software you took) and you have purchased legitimate licenses since, then explain the situation to them. I think Adobe has too much to deal with to go after one person right now.

Get your money from the boss, if he says anything to Adobe, let him. Then you deal with Adobe.

The_Jazz · 11-09-2006, 09:20 PM

Am I the only one wondering why you're asking the likes of us and not your legally-minded family? That's where I'd start.

Sorry if I missed it above, but that seems like the beginning and end of any real search for answers.

Jinn · 11-09-2006, 10:08 PM

Two things - there is nothing identifiable in Dreamweaver created documents, besides their proprietary methods, such as image swapping. Someone reading the source would see such methods, if you in fact used them. Their best position would be that you used Dreamweaver, with no knowledge of the version or license used.

As such, there is no one to say you didn't create it with a legal version of the software.

Photoshop embeds the version of the Photoshop (CS, CS2) in the image EXIF data, but nothing more. Again, you have no liability, so long as you can create a scenario where a legal version was available for your use.

He's a manipulative person playing this game, just like he did when you worked for him. You're fine.

However, I would advise against incriminating yourself in a manner such as this when a great deal of your personal information is available about you. I wouldn't be worried about the people of TFP, but this forum is visible to Google. Be careful what you admit to when your information is bright as day.

magictoy · 11-10-2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

Seems to me that unless he's got incontrovertible proof he's just going to make himself look stupid in court.

YOU: He owes me $21k

HIM: This is true your honor, but he stole software from Adobe.

JUDGE: Meh!

Agreed. Hell, if someone didn't pay me, I'dtell Adobe that HE provided me with the pirated software. There's also the little matter of your being able to report him to the IRS.

The one and only time someone tried to blackmail me, my words were, "If you were trying to get me to do that, you couldn't have picked a worse way to do it."

Tell him to pay up in a week or you call the IRS.

yotta · 11-11-2006, 12:34 AM

Can he prove you had pirated software? If not, back up your files, wipe your hard drive with dban, and reinstall... no proof. Surely not all of his software is legit?

Dilbert1234567 · 11-11-2006, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotta

Can he prove you had pirated software? If not, back up your files, wipe your hard drive with dban, and reinstall... no proof. Surely not all of his software is legit?

make sure teh last passs is not random, but 0's, it looks less suspicious.

Xazy · 11-11-2006, 04:24 PM

I would go after him for it. And if you can get his blackmail on tape even better!

Adobe won't go after you now that you have the licensed copies. It is not like you were selling / distributing them on a large scale.

j0hnb · 11-21-2006, 07:13 AM

I've Erased my drive with Eraser on us DoD standards at 7 passes. I've also have erased all the unused space on my drive several times along with all new data, all again 7 times. All of my software is legit, and all traces of anything remotely pirated is gone. Besides a few songs and my damn addiction to bittorrent as my version of Tivo. But those are erased right after I watch them, so my IP is the only thing left open. I just got notice that he has offered 5k. I'm going to go ahead and take it. After dealing with it for a year and a half now, i would rather just have it over than try to get more out of it. Well thanks for the comments guys.

pig · 11-21-2006, 08:56 AM

screw that. unless you've got legal issues with this guy you're not disclosing, tell him you want the 7k and the 14k buyout, or else you'll see his ass in small claims and you might accidentally call the irs. get used to letting people push you around, it becomes a habit. i'm no attourney, but for 5k you're already living without and have been for a year and a half, i'd rather have my pride. you look to lose 16k, or i'm missing my math.

j0hnb · 11-21-2006, 09:18 AM

No your math is right. Also there are no legal issues that i haven't mentioned. Knowing the guy i'm talking about, to get any more out of him I would have to go to small claims. I gave up on the money a long time ago. So i'm not really counting it as a loss, it's more of a late gain. I simply want it over.

Intense1 · 11-24-2006, 10:42 PM

#1 Do you have anything in writing? Or do you have a witness to what he agreed to?

#2 If not, take all the documentary evidence you have and do your best to stiff him in small claims court. They don't care about side issues such as software licenses, just who has promised whom how much money and who hasn't paid it. It's just so much better if you have stock that he won't honor or even admit he has issued. Yowsa, now you're getting to the Fed level.

What do you have in evidence? That is the main issue in your case. If you have evidence to what he has promised but hasn't delivered, then you should have no problem with getting a favorable solution.

11-09-2006, 07:18 AM	#1 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	Legal Piracy: Went legit, does that matter in the end? In short, I am a college student that used various pirated software as a learning experience, Photoshop, and Dreamweaver. I was using pirated software because I couldn't afford the real thing. Since then I have gone completely legit. This was about a year ago. I have an ex-employer who is threatening me with reporting me for that piracy. What is my risk factor? I assume/know I can still get it trouble for the software I used in the past. But would it be nearly as bad now that I have turned legit?

11-09-2006, 07:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	Why would an ex-employer threaten that? I'm sorry I can't be of any help really, as far as the legal stuff. I doubt that the fact that you've stopped protects you from copyright infringment you've already done, though. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

11-09-2006, 07:48 AM	#4 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	Did you sell or market the work you did with the pirated software, I think (no legal degree) that you would be more likely to be prosecuted if you did. Is there any evidence that you did? If you’ve gone legit, there should be no real evidence to go on. I’m sure if you are called on it by the company, and say, I have licenses for all the software I am using, they would probably back off, as long as you have proof, it would not be worth there time because they would most likely lose. Again, I have no legal degree. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

11-09-2006, 08:21 AM	#8 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	Were you an employee, or an independent contractor? Ask your attorney and ask if your old boss is also liable for the damages caused. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

11-09-2006, 12:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	Seems to me that unless he's got incontrovertible proof he's just going to make himself look stupid in court. YOU: He owes me $21k HIM: This is true your honor, but he stole software from Adobe. JUDGE: Meh! __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

11-09-2006, 07:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	Yea, I know that stopping isn't going to protect me at all. Well I guess I might as well explain the full story. I worked as a freelance graphic artist and webmaster for a local business owner. I worked daily for him for about a year and a half. Sadly with my personality I hate asking for money even if I have worked for it. He acted like a friend and kept putting off paying me. He would give me small amounts to hold me over and keep me working. He later gave me stock in his company instead of paying me as he had promised. I know I should have gotten a contract in writing, we had a verbal agreement, but in the end it's his words against mine. So a year or so later, when I decided that I had had enough, and I left. He got really pissed at me when I took his website down. I had been hosting it till that point and paying for it out of my pocket. I asked for the money I deserved, and followed by asking for him to buy the stock back, which it states in the stock contract that he would. He laughed in my face and said some things that were quite hurtful. No real need to go into detail there. Law runs in my family, so I went over the situation with them, and I was informed that I would take some legal action and not let him walk over me like that. So we went the legal road, and I have only asked and went after what I deserved and what I can prove that he owes me. Which is roughly around 7k in cash and I have over 14k in stock shares. In effort for me to settle out for a price that is like an 8th of what I worked for he is using the pirated info against me. I was unable to afford the legit software because he wasn't paying me. He paid me enough to help me with my rent and food. That is the basics of it, there is a lot more. His lies to me, how he faked a lot of the information he is claiming. How he lied on his taxes about what he paid me, and how he lied to all the stock holders when he send out a stock booklet showing how many shares were out there. Showing 100% of them and all that, but by shares are no where to be found in that info. So I have a lot to get back at him, but I'm trying not to play the game at his level. I just want to know what I would be up against if he were to in the end report me. In the end I have only really used 3 or so pieces of pirated software, would they even take the time to deal with someone as low on the pirated chain as me?

11-09-2006, 07:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	I did work for his company, and was paid for it. Even if I wasn't paid what we agreed I was still paid, so it could be considered as if I used it for profit. My system is clean, the problem lies in the files of all my past work. I'm not sure if Adobe stores any identification information in the Hex of the files created with their software. As far as them being able to recover any of the pirated information. I have shredded the data on my drive far past the recoverable rate. So they should be unable to find any information from that. But like I said if there is any information stored in the files they could pull it from those. I can't really delete the work that I did for them, because if we end up going to court I would then have no proof of the work that I did, because all copies would have been deleted. If we went to court I would have to be able to prove that I was the creator of the works if I want to get paid for what I have done. I have given contact information to my attorney, to have him send a letter to the companies to see what their response on the subject it. But I don't know how long it will take to get a response and the more I think about it the more nervous I get.

11-09-2006, 08:14 AM	#6 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	how about you both call it even? He stole labor from you. You stole software from Adobe. You both gained, and you both lost.

11-09-2006, 08:20 AM	#7 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	I made it even with Adobe. I now own legit versions of 7 of their applications. Though I only use 3 or so of them, if I even have a thought of using one I now have it. Normally I would be a person ok with calling it even. But I never really gained anything. I would be glad to call it even once I get what I have worked for. That is all I am asking, is for what I earned. The pay we agreed on for the hours I can prove. I know I worked a lot more than I can prove I did, but I am only asking for what I can prove. I don't play on playing it at his level. I could be mean and turn him in for his lies on his taxes. Or the company lies about the stock. Or even about pirated software he asked me to install for him, which i didn't, so he had someone else do it. But I have no plans on being that kind of person. Like I said, i'm not out to screw him, just get what I worked for.

11-09-2006, 08:28 AM	#9 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	I was an independent contractor for a long time, then I was added as an employee. Didn't think about the seeing if I could toss the liability off on him. I'll have to look into that one.

11-09-2006, 08:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I had a boss try to blackmail me once. I started dating his daughter and it went away.

11-09-2006, 12:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	Pretty much. Just don't want it to ever get that far. But I would like to know what i'm getting myself into if it does.

11-09-2006, 01:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
NotAnAlias Tilted Location: Auckland, New Zealand	Daniel speaks the truth, whether or not the software was legitimate at the time is irrelevant to the case at hand. It might be more relevant for a separate case in which adobe come hunt you down. Which won't happen. You own 7 legit licenses of their software, they won in the end, his threat has no relevance, take him to the cleaners because he has fucked you up. Good luck :<

11-09-2006, 02:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Agreed. Many users learn with "borrowed ware." If you were milking the system or supplying you could become a target, but you own valid licenses. They'll say thank you and put his complaint in the disgruntled box. Nobody will come after you. Call his BS. I'm curious if local law enforcement would be interested in the blackmail aspect. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

11-09-2006, 02:44 PM	#15 (permalink)
vanblah Junkie	You have to ask yourself if there is any way for this guy to PROVE that you used the software illegally. If he can't prove it (and it's going to be hard) then you have nothing to worry about. Of course, you're on here claiming that you did steal the software. Despite the fact that this is a semi-private forum, it is still searchable. I'd see if you can talk with a lawyer about it. It won't cost too much on the front-end and you may even find someone willing to just do it pro bono. However, you get what you pay for.

11-09-2006, 03:31 PM	#16 (permalink)
bendsley Professional Loafer Location: texas	I would go after your old boss for the money that you are owed. I agree with cyrnel above saying that the adobe software matter is something all together different. Any court I would imagine would seperate the two. He can't really do anything to you about the Adobe software because he wasn't hurt by it, Adobe was. Get your money from your old boss, then deal with Adobe if they come after you. If Adobe decides to come after you, which I highly doubt they will, seeing as how a lawsuit against one person would cost them a great deal of money (more than the software you took) and you have purchased legitimate licenses since, then explain the situation to them. I think Adobe has too much to deal with to go after one person right now. Get your money from the boss, if he says anything to Adobe, let him. Then you deal with Adobe. __________________ "You hear the one about the fella who died, went to the pearly gates? St. Peter let him in. Sees a guy in a suit making a closing argument. Says, "Who's that?" St. Peter says, "Oh, that's God. Thinks he's Denny Crane."

11-09-2006, 09:20 PM	#17 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Am I the only one wondering why you're asking the likes of us and not your legally-minded family? That's where I'd start. Sorry if I missed it above, but that seems like the beginning and end of any real search for answers. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

11-09-2006, 10:08 PM	#18 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Two things - there is nothing identifiable in Dreamweaver created documents, besides their proprietary methods, such as image swapping. Someone reading the source would see such methods, if you in fact used them. Their best position would be that you used Dreamweaver, with no knowledge of the version or license used. As such, there is no one to say you didn't create it with a legal version of the software. Photoshop embeds the version of the Photoshop (CS, CS2) in the image EXIF data, but nothing more. Again, you have no liability, so long as you can create a scenario where a legal version was available for your use. He's a manipulative person playing this game, just like he did when you worked for him. You're fine. However, I would advise against incriminating yourself in a manner such as this when a great deal of your personal information is available about you. I wouldn't be worried about the people of TFP, but this forum is visible to Google. Be careful what you admit to when your information is bright as day. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

11-11-2006, 12:34 AM	#20 (permalink)
yotta Irresponsible	Can he prove you had pirated software? If not, back up your files, wipe your hard drive with dban, and reinstall... no proof. Surely not all of his software is legit? __________________ I am Jack's signature.

11-11-2006, 04:24 PM	#22 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	I would go after him for it. And if you can get his blackmail on tape even better! Adobe won't go after you now that you have the licensed copies. It is not like you were selling / distributing them on a large scale.

11-21-2006, 07:13 AM	#23 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	I've Erased my drive with Eraser on us DoD standards at 7 passes. I've also have erased all the unused space on my drive several times along with all new data, all again 7 times. All of my software is legit, and all traces of anything remotely pirated is gone. Besides a few songs and my damn addiction to bittorrent as my version of Tivo. But those are erased right after I watch them, so my IP is the only thing left open. I just got notice that he has offered 5k. I'm going to go ahead and take it. After dealing with it for a year and a half now, i would rather just have it over than try to get more out of it. Well thanks for the comments guys.

11-21-2006, 08:56 AM	#24 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	screw that. unless you've got legal issues with this guy you're not disclosing, tell him you want the 7k and the 14k buyout, or else you'll see his ass in small claims and you might accidentally call the irs. get used to letting people push you around, it becomes a habit. i'm no attourney, but for 5k you're already living without and have been for a year and a half, i'd rather have my pride. you look to lose 16k, or i'm missing my math. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

11-21-2006, 09:18 AM	#25 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	No your math is right. Also there are no legal issues that i haven't mentioned. Knowing the guy i'm talking about, to get any more out of him I would have to go to small claims. I gave up on the money a long time ago. So i'm not really counting it as a loss, it's more of a late gain. I simply want it over.

11-24-2006, 10:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
Intense1 Crazy Location: Music City burbs	#1 Do you have anything in writing? Or do you have a witness to what he agreed to? #2 If not, take all the documentary evidence you have and do your best to stiff him in small claims court. They don't care about side issues such as software licenses, just who has promised whom how much money and who hasn't paid it. It's just so much better if you have stock that he won't honor or even admit he has issued. Yowsa, now you're getting to the Fed level. What do you have in evidence? That is the main issue in your case. If you have evidence to what he has promised but hasn't delivered, then you should have no problem with getting a favorable solution. __________________ (none yet, still thinkin')