Cynthetiq

I apologize, I didn't build my machines, I spec'd them and had someone assemble it to a DOS screen. I configured everything else after that.

At the low end, I do believe there is a premium to the Mac club. It's one of the reasons that Apple created the Mini since that edge of the market was clearly missed by Apple. Apple prices jump from $599 to $999, and my machine was $799 base (2.14 Core2Duo, 250HD, 1Gb RAM, 7300GS. I only added better case/PSU, 2Gb RAM and Nvidia 7900GT card to get to $1,200.) But they clearly miss a whole market segment that does make them appear to be pricier for those that just want to surf, email, and Office type applications.

As a corporate support person I was very much into branded boxes especially when the company was buying them for me to use at home.

For the prosumer that's a great deal. in the broadcast production houses I deal with, FCP is only used for rough cuts and decision making, not final edit.

There was a show in Fine Living the other day that pit Final Cut and Movie Maker between husband and wife to see who could put together something quick and easily and FCP was by far the more impressive.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Jove

I have spent around 6 years working with Windows, so I would have no actual objective answer for getting or working with a mac.

What I think I am going to do instead of arguing about the differences between the pc and mac and why the pc or the mac is the elite, I am going to purchase a macbook pro and get more experience working with a mac and the os.

Thanks JustJess for convincing me to buy a Mac.

Cynthetiq

that's great! a shame more techinical people in the corporate world don't do the same thing. Most are completely afraid to work on macs.... speaking of which I have to fire up that silver G4 with the 23" Cinema display today w00t!

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

JustJess

Hot diggity! Ooooh, post when you've bought it, I want to know if you like it, and what specs you went with, and stuff.
Wheeee!

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Cynthetiq

Okay, so I'm on this G4 silver with the 23" display, people have walked past and asked if my screen was big enough. It's actually too big since the text is TINY. It's nice for the moment... I do wonder what World of Warcraft would look on this display!!!! (not on this 9000 ATI card, but just the display)

but here's the specs of this machine:

Dual 1.42 Ghz Power PC G4
2MB L3 cach per proc
2Gb DDR SDRAM
Firewire 800
USB 2.0
64MB AIT Radeon 9000
23" Cinema Display 1920x1200
300Gb HD
500Gb Firewire external
Mighty mouse (it feels weird to roll around a little mouse ball on my fingertip)

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Jinn

That's actually quite surprising. I always though Macs were $400-$900 more expensive. I think they might still be, for my "niche."

I'm not sure you did an equal comparison, though. For example, the Mac has a 7300 GT (256 MB) - a $79.99 card. The Dell, however, has a ATI FireGL V3400 (128 MB) - a $259.99 card.

You've also done a comparison of 'workstation' / 'server' computers with Xeon processors. I'd like to see a comparison of a "home" computer / "gaming" computers. I'd absolutely never use a Xeon or a FireGL at home. A Core Duo and Radeon / Geforce would be far better for my purposes. Does Apple even offer these?

I can't seem to figure out Apple's site, so can you find a similar machine to this? I'd like to see the prices.


Intel® Core™2 Duo processor E6600 (2.4GHz)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition with re-installation CD
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz - 2 DIMMs
640GB Performance RAID 0 (2 x 320GB SATA 3Gb/s 7200 RPM HDDs)
Dual Drives: 16x DVD-ROM Drive + 16x DVD+/-RW w/ dbl layer write capable
20 inch UltraSharp™ 2007FPW Widescreen Digital Flat Panel
512MB nVidia GeForce 7900 GTX
Sound Blaster® X-Fi™ XtremeMusic (D) Sound Card
Dell 5650 5.1 100 Watt Surround Sound Speaker System with Subwoofer
Dell USB Keyboard
Dell Optical USB Mouse

2Yr Ltd Warranty and At-Home Service

$3,133

To me, that's a FAR superior machine - $900 cheaper than your Dell, and almost $200 below the Apple.

Maybe a difference of what we think is important in a computer? Something like Firewire 800 is absolutely useless to me; all the peripherals that I do have (camera, joystick, midi controller, printer, n52 speedpad, mouse, keyboard) are all way faster than I need, and they're on USB 2.0. I need responsive windows, the ability to multitask (Core Duo), low heat (Core Duo), high volume, high quality, and high fidelity surround sound (sound card, speakers), and the most important is fast and efficient real-time graphics rendering (high end video card).

In those areas, I find that Apple has far less selection than Dell. I build my own, but I still find Dell to be the quoted "$400-$900 cheaper" in my market than Apple is.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Glory's Sun

Jinn.. ok so it's $200 less than the Apple right? What about support issues? You have to weigh this factor in as well. When it comes to gaming all you have to do is hit a keystroke and parallel over to Windoze and play your games. I'm not a gamer at all so I'm not familiar with what goes on with those machines. The reason the dell had a smaller MB video is because I didn't see an option to include a 256.. which means even if there was.. let's be honest, the Dell price would still go up. I'll look around and come up with more comparison's if I get the time. Also, sure you can always build a custom machine to out perform any manufacted machine.. but with the Mac Pro you now have PnP HDD bays to give you up to 3TB of storage for under $1000. That's pretty nice. This really comes down to "whatever blows your skirt". The mac just happens to blow mine.

Cyn: I'm not a fan of FCP for finishing either. That's what I use Nitris for. I do however know about working with the mac and windows versions of Avid and have also worked on some Discreet systems. In my experience and a colleque who is now a team production leader for discovery channel, will take the apple based systems over the windows based systems any day. They just work better.

Jinn

? I'm confused? It has a two year warranty and in-home service included in the price. I could've bumped it up, but two years is as long as I'd probably had that PC anyway.

It's not just $200 cheaper, it's MUCH better. I'm not sure you read my post entirely. Your "price comparison" showed two (in my opinion) low quality machines being sold for (in my opinion) way too much money. The system I offered is much more performant, and cheaper to boot. I was just curious if Apple could even assemble a similar system.

I'm not sure how your ability to host multiple OS' effects the quality or price of the hardware. Sure, that's neat, but -- if you're going to switch over to Windows to do stuff, why not just .. I dunno.. use Windows?

This, I think, is your reason for misunderstanding my post. From a gamer's perspective, those machines were shit. While the Apple might be cheaper, it's cheaper shit.

Plug and Play Hard drives? I'm not really sure I understand how that's a benefit of the Mac Pro? You can do that with any modern system.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Glory's Sun

See Jinn, this is where we part ways. I know shit about gaming computers because.. I dunno.. gaming is dumb. The reason you have 2 OS is because if you have an application that is windows only but prefer to use OSX then you still only one once computer and you have the security that apple owners have long since fed on. I do admit I skimmed through your post because I am a bit rushed.. even as I'm writing this, I'm rushed. If you're pro PC then so be it, I just feel that in my experiences, Apple has been better to me than any PC.. custom or preassembled. The plug and play.. is.. you don't have to take a case off.. you just stick it in a slot no power cables to put on.. no data cables.. just stick it in the hole Sure that's not really that big of a deal.. it's just cool.

Apple isn't worried about gaming.. they are worried about those of us who actually use the computer to make money

Jinn

Well, I sure hope they don't think like you do. Video games certainly don't make money, and they must surely be a waste of time.

• Video game sales exceeded the movie industry's annual box office draw last year by $1 billion.
  
• Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, sold more than 1.4 million copies at an average $48 apiece in its first three days. That $70 million windfall easily puts it in the ranks of a blockbuster movie.
  
• Designers can make $50,000 a year right out of college and twice as much if they are part of a team that produces a hit video game.
  
• Total video game sales were $777 million for THIS MONTH ALONE, up from $563 million in September of last year.

I'm sure glad they're not focusing on "dumb" things that don't make any money.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Glory's Sun

Jinn: you're too easy man. I wasn't really baiting you but I knew what your answer would be

Apple is a closed market. They cater to a select market.. if they wanted to expand they would have done so by now. I just happen to fit into the maket they cater to. Like I said, whatever blows your skirt. If you build a PC for gaming cheaper.. then I doubt Apple is going to cry because they lost that money.

A question I do have though, is how much of those video game designing was done on an apple?? Sure video game sales are high.. and sure it's easy to play them on a PC but do designers use Apple to design the movies and or graphics at all? Like I said, I know shit about PC gaming.. so they may not.

Cynthetiq

gucci: interestingly enough (as I type this out on the Silver mac), alot of the post production houses here are moving to PC based Avids because the cost of hardware is so much cheaper. They can almost do a 2 for 1 and double their rental income because they use the less expensive hardware.

So far none of the editors I know have griped about them not being Apple. Irony is that we have a full edit facility in house which is almost always booked and does use Apple based hardware. The post production facilities we are allowed to use for shows are also fully booked.

Truly more than anything it speaks to the need for NLE systems Mac or PC, there is a huge demand.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Glory's Sun

Where I do my production work, we don't rent the machines.. so we get the good stuff and it has to last. We have several PC based Avid systems and some editors prefer them just because they are used to windows. I'm hoping to get another discreet system up soon.. and another symphony system. I want them to be mac though.. it's just what I prefer. Sure I can use either just the same.. I just like the mac better. I'm stubborn on that.. maybe that's my problem.. maybe I'm blind for the tree.. heh I don't know.

So you guys don't do your finishing edits in house? That seems like it would be alot more cost effective to have a finishing team. I mean.. really.. I'd rather do finishing work than cut room any day.

Jinn

As far as game creation goes, non-Apple PCs dominate simply because that non-Apple PCs are the intended audience. The biggest libraries, engines, and development studios (DirectX, .Net, Visual Studio) are locked by Microsoft to Windows PCs. Some render-farms for non-dynamic video is done on Linux and Apple machines, but I've never seen a developer use Apple for their actual game logic design. Many of the assets, like textures, models and sound can be done on Mac, but the software usually exists on both. Maya, 3DS Max, Photoshop, Cubase, FM7 and Max/MSP are all univeral binaries, so I can do the same work on both. I've seen a ton of sound creation on Macintosh, but it still ends up migrated to the PCs for the true development of the engine and the game itself.

So in developing the game, I'd have to admit that it's fairly evenly divided along the lines of good software, not the hardware or OS.

For playing them, it's pretty much a requisite - all the engines and libraries above are optimized and even limited to PCs; it's hard to use a Windows Form event to control your rendering if the OS (OSX) doesn't cause a Windows Form event to occur.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Glory's Sun

but now you can play your games on the awesome Apple Cinema displays

thanks for the info. I pretty much figured most of it was done in some form of Windows based format since like you said that's what gamers use. I was just curious if there was an apple stuff in that area.

In my areas I just notice most people use the Apple and die by it. :shrug:

So I guess this argument boils down to picking the system which is best for what you use it for.

Cynthetiq

sure some groups have finishing edit teams but not every group. We have so many productions, sometimes as many as 100 different productions per day going on at the same time. Also if they had only one team then the style would inadvertently be the same and get boring quickly... another way they stay edgy and fresh.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Glory's Sun

oh wow. I forgot who you worked for heh. I can see why you outsource things. You're right about the styles. It's funny, where I'm at (I only do it part time) you can see something (commercial, show, whatever) and I can instantly tell you who produced and finished it. Everyone has their own style. Luckily, I change mine up every few projects in order to stay fresh.

oberon

Gaming, graphics, production, etc. aren't the only markets that can justify high-end systems. Think science & engineering. They can ALWAYS use more processing power. I built and administer high-end clusters (of 250+ $5000 systems, with 10-30Gb/s, <10 microsecond interconnects) for researchers at my alma mater. I had coworkers who built and administered $1M+ a pop supercomputers at the same place. Yet another niche, but no less important than others in my not so humble opinion. I tend to buy higher-end systems personally because, the faster my code compiles, the sooner I can break it.

For me, a laptop that is reliable, has great connectivity (so I can use other systems to do grunt work from it), is light i.e. easy to carry around, and has good battery life, is the way to go. For everything else, a workstation, server, desktop, or gaming console does the job perfectly fine. Don't overload your laptop. It's not worth it.

I had a $2300 IBM T42p laptop purchased in Jan 2005 that failed recently and IBM wanted $750 to fix it (under warranty) because there was "corrosion" on the mainboard. They blamed it on a "spill" although I can't remember spilling anything on it, other than sweat from my palms generated by how hot it got. The laptop sits on my floor unused now because I can't do anything about the problem without spending MORE money.

I've thought about getting a new MBP but I am afraid Apple will screw me over like that too. So I think I will buy an older used model for cheap and dispense with spending the money on a warranty that may not be honored. I seem to be awfully good at beating computers up anyway. Something about how laptops & some desktops/workstations were not designed to be used 8-16 hours a day.

Most people really don't need to spec/build computers. They just need something relatively basic that will handle simpler, deterministic tasks with ease. Macs excel at that. My dad just bought a MacBook for himself too, and he has been a DOS/Windows slave for 20 years. He does not need anything special or niche. I think it will work out very well for him.

While I'm ranting, Windows gaming is a huge pain in the ass and I don't understand why anybody thinks it's such a great platform. Give me a gaming console any day over wasting hours trying to figure out why the high-end graphics card doesn't put out like it ought to. I should just buy a dedicated gaming computer, but at that point, why bother? Might as well buy a Wii or Xbox 360. Now if only I can play CS: Source on that.

Ok, ok, I'm done now.

__________________
"There are finer fish in the sea than have ever been caught." -- Irish proverb

KnifeMissile

Well, in JinnKai's defense, willravel totally deserved it. He took a simple and harmless statement rather badly and then started making poorly informed posts. After his ignorance was revealed, he simply ignored that he had ever said anything and has made no acknowldgement of his mistakes. So, someone has called him up on that. No big deal, really...




Oh, any why do I bring all this up, now? No reason, really. It's the holidays and I had some free time...

Shauk

I have plenty to say on the pc/mac windows/osx debate, but for some reason, this thread just feels too old and uninteresting, and hell, even off topic.


hrm. darn!

JustJess

Well, back ON topic... I just bought my new laptop this past Wednesday!! It's soooo purty. If I'm not carrying a whole bunch of stuff, it's not even so heavy to carry in my backpack. Wheeeee!!!! I decided to go with only the 1G RAM chip, because there are two slots, and the 2G chips are super expensive right now, so if I want to upgrade later (say, when the chips are cheaper), I'll just get a 2G later and not have to throw out a 1G chip that would be in there if I bought the 2G RAM version now.

... Does that make sense?

Hm.
Anyway, I have been loving having my own space and materials. I even got a free printer (HP3180, prints, scans, copies, and will print from photo cards). Not that we needed it, nor do I think this thing is top quality, but it was free, thus all I needed.

As for your debate on which is better... frankly, I just don't care. I like the Apple OS better based on the lack of viruses, the super customer support, and the very pretty, very simple user interface. I can manage a Windows system with the best of them (user only, no technogeek stuff here), but I enjoy using the Mac a whole lot more for completely illogical and unnecessary reasons. So there.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

cyrnel

Congratulations, JJ! I picked up my MBP Christmas present recently as well.

Doesn't sound like you're taking crap from anyone on your selection. Good. These religious debates have been around since day one. If the point is to get something done, well, choosing a comfortable system is a big part of making that happen. The prices for similarly equipped systems are so close that the most important factor becomes usability, and that's up to each user. Use what works.

I'm enjoying mine!

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195