bobophil

shouldn't there be a guys lounge? i mean, i feel like we should get our own forum chapter too!

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Check and mate, now king me.
-Homer

spectre

*Edit: I merged the previously linked threads into this one.*

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"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Ishmal

LOL.

damn you Spectre!!!

i was about to do the exact same thing...

**wanders away looking for another useful thing to do**

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"Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular."

AVoiceOfReason

"TFP wants people of all kinds, genders, and types to be able to enjoy the board on an equal level."

And to acheive that, we have an unequal situation, where the men don't have a lounge to get away from the women. Interesting.

"Besides, a mens only board would revolve mostly around boobs, dick length, and general pimping. Things that are already seen on the board."

And that differs how exactly from the Ladies Lounge?

As one of the males, I can assure you that none of those subjects would be a topic forthcoming from THIS keyboard.

I don't advocate doing away with the Ladies Lounge, but fail to see the harm in having a place for the guys to congregate, too. 'Tis only equitable.

Glory's Sun

If you look at the guy/girl ratio on the board you'll find that women are a huge minority (in sheer number). Many women (please don't take this wrong) are shy when it comes to initial contact in a public forum like this. The ladies lounge gives them a place where they can share issues that are dynamic to the female sex and gives them some comfortablity in those areas.

A "Mens Lounge" is unnecessary due to the fact that if you look around the board, many male issues are openly discussed and most of the time, the male sex has no issue with shyness in an open forum.

This has been brought so many times it's crazy. So I say, enjoy the board for what it is, what it can be and let this subject die.

SiN

well said, guc. thanks.

@ AVoiceOfReason - did you even look at the other threads that spec posted?

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Redlemon

Could we merge spectre's list of threads with this one and make it a sticky?

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Glory's Sun

I'm waiting for Phredgreen to get ahold of this heh.

spectre

I like that idea.

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"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

AVoiceOfReason

And we know that all men are comfortable discussing things in mixed company? ..


And most of the time isn't ALL of the time, is it? Plus, the whole position smacks of "the poor women are the weaker sex" mentality.

Hmmm, maybe the reason it is brought up so often is that the idea has merit. And just because someone thinks the board can be better doesn't mean they don't enjoy what it is. Otherwise, no one would ever make a suggestion on any change.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Glory's Sun

No we don't know that <i>all</i> men are comfortable in this setting, but I'd be willing to bet that <i>most</i> don't mind at all.

Again, no, most of the time isn't <i>all</i> of the time. But we would be foolish to start a new forum or subforum for every little thing that comes up. The fact is that the male population is so great that if a male person has a shyness issue then it's dynamic to that person as an idividual. Females (while I don't believe they are any weaker) are just known to be more shy when it comes to this type of medium. They don't know if they're going to get hit on, or do the right thing so it's just more comfortable for them to have a place where they can mingle with females. Since I'm a betting man, I'd be willing to place a significant bet on the fact that most women truly enjoy this area of tfp, most would say it's helped them in many ways.

Tell me in detail how a men's lounge would benefit the male gender and also the TFP as a whole and then maybe you'd have an argument.

The idea has merit, but not enough to justify a new forum. The rule is "if there is enough posts on a particular issue or ideal, then the forum will go up for consideration."

I'd also ask you why you didn't answer SiN's question. It's very vaild and I'm curious as to it's answer.


Edit: For an example let's look at <i>Tilted Outdoors</i>. The call came in several times for this forum, yet since it's creation there have been a total of only 315 posts.

Also we could use the example of "Tilted Relationships". The call has come time and time again, but in the end it isn't a good direction and/or feasible idea.

AVoiceOfReason

I didn't look at the other ones that were posted, for a very good reason:

I saw them, and then forgot.

I'll do that and get back with you.

EDIT: Ok, three of the four were dead links for me. The second one had much the same arguments pro and con. What I took from the reading is that there have been people asking for it for a couple of years, at least, and for that long, the response is "oh, it's not needed." That's debatable (hence, this debate) but one thing is not subject to debate: It's been wanted for a long time.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Glory's Sun

Ok.. so answer me this: How will it benefit the male gender and TFP as a whole?

This is a suggestion forum but the suggestion has to be viable and back with good info and ideas.

AVoiceOfReason

And the logic behind the LL is that MOST women aren't comfortable talking in mixed company?



I complete agree with this, that main screen doesn't need to be cluttered with something that isn't wanted.


I hope you don't engage in racial or ethnic stereotypes so freely.


And I've said not a single word about taking that avenue away from them.



Here's a current example: In the Sexuality forum, a young misguided lad posted a note, calling a girl "fugly." He got a lot of grief from both sexes, but he'd have gotten less if he'd been in a "men's locker room" of sorts.

It would benefit TFP as a whole because it would demonstrate that it (as a group) does not think women are such shy flowers that they have to have special favors. The argument you put forward about men hitting on them is only valid if they never venture from that enclave.

Such would also recognize what we all know to be true: Men and women ARE different, think differently and express themselves differently. Most adults (Martha Burke notwithstanding) understand this, and accommodate this difference.

Finally, if it DID degenerate into remarks about anatomy functions, would that be so much different than what is going on in the LL now? I've not read every note there, but those gals seem to discuss more than baking cookies and gardening tips.

My reading of the posts I could link to showed me that when the issue is brought up, it's given a backhand "oh, not that again" instead of being addressed as we are. If more debate was encouraged, I suspect more would be forthcoming.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Redlemon

Well, this is Version 3 of TFP. Versions 1 and 2 were lost to hard drive failures, if I recall correctly. The debates go back that far, so the "oh no that again" refers to posts that no one can see anymore.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Glory's Sun

!Without having much time to put into this post atm, I just fail to see how many male specific topics would come up except for dick size, shaving and how to talk to a girl. We have those thoughts already in sexuality.

spectre

That's my fault. I merged all of those threads into this one. Their content can be found at the begining of this thread.

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"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

TexanAvenger

At the time of this post, the five topics sitting at the top of sexuality are:
-Unclasping bras 101
-Intensity of orgasm: sex vs. masturbation for males
-Girls in Groups and Fugly Girl Cockblocking
-Long hair on guys?
-Have I just been hit on by a gay guy?

I just don't see any kind of Men's Lounge that could easily distinguish itself from Tilted Sexuality as it is in its present form. And even disregarding that, I still have yet to be convinced that a Men's Lounge would really benefit the guys here, much less the entire community.

Cynthetiq

Do we have men only gyms? if there's such a market for "women's only" and conversely there should be a market for "men's only" gyms right? But there isn't.

If a group of men were here who wanted to have a place where they could explore themselves without the distraction of women I'd tend to agree, but would it even get the same amount of traffic as the LL? doubtful for the very reasons that there are no "men only" gyms.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

AVoiceOfReason

You assume we'd be talking about sex there. I can think of other areas where men would benefit from male only discussions--the role of the husband and father in the home just to begin with. Also, many schools have learned that separating the genders is of benefit to the education of both boys and girls, even if they are talking about the same thing as they would when together.


I think that is more due to threats of lawsuits than market preference; not all clubs have a Hootie Johnson willing to tell the Martha Burkes of the world to go pound sand. But there are men's groups--Promise Keepers and Boys Scouts--and there are men's areas such as locker rooms.

If you don't talk exactly the same in a group of men and women as you do with just women, you know of what I speak here.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

TexanAvenger

That's exactly what I am assuming. I, too, can think of areas where men would benefit from male only discussions... much like what you're saying. However, I don't know that, given the opportunity for such a place, the conversation would lead to such topics. I think, instead, that the conversations would go straight to sex and stay there.

Cynthetiq

having gone to an all boys High School that went co-ed in my 2nd year. I can totally understand what you are saying. I can totally appreciate it because I have seen the differences first hand.

Boys stopped farting, scratching their balls, being sophomoric assholes to each other and started grooming, posturing etc. all trying to get girls attention.

But with the mission that Halx has here it doesn't seem to work in my head because this place is about bridging gaps not widening them. Putting men into a space of men only will only further the gap in my opinion. The fugly and ho threads are testament to that. Yes the women got involved which is crucial to your side of the argument in sayiing that they shouldn't have been to help that discussion out. But the premise was already set by the OP who used a derogatory term to women.

Note, even I did not decry the fugly statement. Mostly because I tend to see past the words and get to the meat of the discussion right away. But others cannot get past that and they focus on that as part of their discussion Its that discourse at that level that self-corrects the males that engage in this type of behavior. Males tend to not self-correct each other when alone with just other males in most of the interactions I've seen.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

AVoiceOfReason

But you assume that (a) a man wouldn't have done that and (b) correcting the OP was crucial. In fact, the whole thread was derailed by the political correctness police--the lad was asking how to work through the pack dynamics and instead got a lecture on being nice. That wasn't what he was seeking. He may have been chided in a males only room, but the focus of his question would not have been lost in the din.



So the purpose behind this board is to tame the male of the species? That is so demeaning to men, to suggest they NEED to self-correct.

What's wrong with men being allowed to be MEN, at least in one spot on this board? Women have a place to behave as they please; I've not seen a single valid reason why men shouldn't have the same. That is A place, not EVERYPLACE. There's no reason to think the men will go there exclusively, just as the women come out of the protective coccoon built for them.

There are many (in fact, most) subjects in which a man WANTS a woman's input, and vice versa; I just don't see the rationale for having a place where women can post freely without a man getting in his piece, yet a woman can post in "where's the strangest place you've put your penis," a subject about which she has NO first hand knowledge (That's a poor example of what I'm talking about, but I just saw it this morning! ).

The AVOR bottomline--it's time to recognize that men can use a place to discuss things among themselves ONLY for many of the same reasons women like to have that enclave. It could be many men here aren't expressing themselves as they can best do so because of fear of being slammed by the PC goons that can't look past the inartful expression and into the core of what's on the poster's mind.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Cynthetiq

First and foremost, there doesn't have to be a reason except that Halx has stated that he's not interested in exploring that aspect of sociology. It's purpose that I've been able to figure out is not to tame the male species but to bridge the gap between the sexes. To help each other understand each other better so to speak.

Being able to post thoughts without offending someone is tantamount to discussion. You create a hostile environment for a single person and people will not be so interested in responding.

Men are being allowed to be men, but the softer side of being a man, is what seems to be being explored here. Men who are comfortable enough to express their more effeminite side without having to worry about being chided by the more alpha male types.

There's plenty of places all around the internet that cater to exactly what you are saying. There's even media to boot, from Maxim to Men's Health, SpikeTV to Speed Channel.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

AVoiceOfReason

I agree with the first sentence completely; it's his barn and he can run the stable however he pleases. BUT, since input and suggestions are welcomed, we are doing him a disservice by not putting forth what we want in his site--because without us, he's got an empty board.

And the purpose of having a "men's only" area IS to help us understand each other. The questions I envision in such a place would help men discuss their experiences in life, many of which would include women. However, there, as in the LL, the men would feel free to speak freely without being corrected by someone trying to appeal to our softer side. We have them, and as a gentleman, I try to put mine forward at all times, but let's not bury our heads and assume that the way a man tries to express himself in mixed company is what he's really thinking.

FINALLY, you get it!! (Maybe without meaning to.) The reason for a men's area is so to avoid creating a hostile environment and offending women as we discuss their quirks and seemingly unfathomable ways. And here I thought we weren't getting anywhere! A man that ventures into the Ladies Lounge has no right to complain about what he sees there--and the same would be true for women in that ONE limited area, should it exist here. If it's something that would offend a woman, she has no reason to even go there and be offended.

Why try to make men be women, though? That makes no more sense than trying to make women be men.

And there are Cosmo, Lifetime and the like for women out there, too.

I truly appreciate the way you've tried to defend the indefensible here--as an attorney, I get called on to do that all too often-- and you've put forward what I think is the best face on the "it's not needed" position. If one takes the position that it would be only a place to discuss shaving, genital size and talking to women, that might be a reason not to have it; on the other hand, how would that differ too much from the female side of things? But once it becomes apparent there are other things that guys can discuss best with just other guys, then the whole rationale crumbles.

And still, it's Halx's place, and if he thinks it won't further the purposes of his board, even though it's a totally arbitrary position, then that's the final word, and I accept it. I don't have to LIKE it, but then again, I'm a volunteer here, anyway.

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AVOR

A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

Cynthetiq

I have always understood what you are saying and I did at one time think exactly the same thoughts as you. But over the past 3 years of being a commuinty member here, I've not seen how it would really further it.

I've tried to think of topics that would be "Men Only" and I don't see how it would be any different if women were discluded save the "fugly" or "bros before hoes" thread.

My reasons are because as a man, I'm offended by those terms. Only because of simple statement my father made to me that makes me think before I say those things, which is, "Would you want someone to treat your sister that way?" From that perspective...it all melts away to me. It then becomes something that I cannot see how removing them from the equation benefits any discussion.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

pattycakes

i have the name for the forum if it ever becomes reality

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Kali

there are bigger problems in the world than this one

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"According to the map we've only gone four inches" -Dumb and Dumber

Bill O'Rights

True.
And that may also help to explain why no one has replied to this thread in over a year.

Just a thought.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Willravel

Ever watch BET? At first I thought it was incredibly racist. What right do they have to keep white people off their channel? If we did that, we.....oh wait. We already do that. Blacks are still second class on TV. What does that mean? Well, if someone were to start WET, White Entertainment Television, they'd get overrun by racism and then get sued and destroyed.


Women are the minority gender on TFP. Some of the best, most wonderful people on TFP are women, but they are not in the majority. They need a room to talk in. They need a club. It's a matter of evening things out a bit. I say kudos to them, and I hope they all enjoy the lounge.

butch2290

lol a mens lounge? dont we already have a titty board? ahaha

Baraka_Guru

The titty board isn't a great place to discuss issues such as misandry, men's rights, and the stigma of male depression.

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Tully Mars

I see no reason for a men only forum. Basically this place is a sausage fest to begin with, so almost every thread is a men's thread. Seem more reasonable to give those in the minority a place to express themselves.

I used to wish the Ladies lounge had some highlight to it or perhaps a secret handshake for entry. I've wandered in there more then once by accident and posted. I've learned, I hope. I still find myself reading a title of a new thread in there and think "that looks interesting" and end up in there, but lately I've caught myself and left.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

genuinegirly

I love the LL, thanks Willravel for putting it in a good light. I have always considered the LL a "safe place". Granted, it's more like a fish bowl since men can read the threads, but it is nice to have a place where I know everyone who posts is a woman. Then when I see their posts elsewhere, I have a bit more of an idea where they're coming from.

Baraka_Guru does have an excellent point about a safe forum in which men can discuss sensitive topics where they do not want female input. Perhaps these can be addressed in "Life" with a Men's Lounge-titled thread.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

StanT

I still wish I could filter it easily from recent posts.

I see the LL as a place where women can bitch about men without any chance for rebuttal. I don't see the point, afraid some male might have a valid point contradicting something? Whatever, it's no big deal, it would be nice if it were easier to avoid.

Tully Mars

In the few times I've wondered in there I didn't get the feeling that it was a place to "bitch about men." More a place for the ladies here to get the opinion of other ladies on a variety of issues with the interjection of a males voice.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

abaya

I'm sorry to hear that you feel so negatively about the LL--that's not the aim of the place. Could you let us mods know the next time that you notice women talking shit about men? (I guess I haven't seen any of that myself, but I admit to being less sensitive about it than I would be, if I were male.) It would be helpful for us to know, so that we can contact the person posting and tone down the language.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

StanT

My point is that it is hard to avoid when otherwise interesting topics show up as a new post. I have no interest in censoring the male bashing, I also have no interest in reading it. I'd like to be able to block it, just as others would like to be able to block the porn.

Anormalguy

There is some very good reading in this sticky/thread. I don't know if AVoiceOfReason is still around, but I must give him kudos for presenting a strong argument for a Mens Lounge.

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In a society where the individual is not free to pursue the truth...there is neither progress, stability nor security.--Edward R. Murrow

ASU2003

I've had a few ideas for threads that could have gone in a Men's forum. I think it should be tried out.