Ladies and gentlement, your 04-05 Los Angeles Lakers
 

Kobe is back! He's this generation's MJ.
Odom is gonna be this generation's Pippen.

I don't know what it is, but I think this team has the potential to be the most entertaining show since... showtime.

Rudy T plays a running game and he can whip LA into shape. The thing that the team lacked with Phil Jackson was a work ethic. One of Kobe's specific demands of Rudy was that he restore this. We're gonna see some hustle, like the Pistons.

A couple days ago, I heard GP wanted to be bought out of his contract, but now I'm hearing that both he and Malone will be back. GP in a running game? Holy shit!

A lot of people think losing Shaq was the worst thing the Lakers could do. Maybe they won't win the championship this year, but they will be an awesome team to watch. I think our centers will do their job well. All we need on a running team is hustle and boards. Plus, if by chance we land Vlade, we'll have a passing center for the few possessions where we wanna slow it down.

Screw all the haters who think the Lakers are going to hell. I have confidence in my team.

I am happy for the Lakers (grudgingly ;)) because I don't like to see great franchises go completely to the crapper.

The problem is, they don't have a real center now. Brian Grant is fine in the East, but against the guys in the West that Shaq could generally beat, he's going to get killed.

This does look like a nice team, however, and they will make the playoffs.

Of course Koby is going to resign. Shaq is gone, so he'll be running the show, just like he thought he has been all of these years.

Re: Ladies and gentlement, your 04-05 Los Angeles Lakers
 

I'm glad to see you're staying on the bandwagon, but the Lakers are not going to go anywhere else they figure out how to play some better D. With no real inside pressence, the Lake Show ain't gonna be that great this year. I would go so far as to say that the Suns will finish ahead of Lakers in the standings next season.

so what's the lineup going to look like for the lakers this year? they have three power fowards (malone, grant and odom) so who is going to be playing where. I list grant as a power forward because there is no way I can see him playing center in the west so thats gotta be the position they have him at.

C: Grant
PF: Malone
SF: Odom
SG: Bryant
PG: Payton

I think the options for a better center are Dampier and Vlade .. we'll see

Also addressing a few issues: Kobe's numbers went down last season due to 2 things... 1) Sharing the ball with the 2 other HOF's and 2) He lost a bit of weight in the offseason because of all the distractions. He should be bulking up again this offseason so he can come tear it up like he did in 2002-2003.

Also, GP only sucked last year because he was caught in Phil Jackson's triangle offense.. which was greek to him.

Why will Kobe be bulking up this off-season? If anything he'll have more distractions, and the possibility of him spending a good portion of time in jail has to mess with his mind a little.

Is Malone coming back for sure? I don't remember hearing anything about that.

Kobe isn't the next MJ. MJ's teams has less talent and still won.

Comparing Odom to Pippen is an insult to Pippen.

Although, it will be interesting to see them lose to better teams in the west this year, like Houston, San Antonio, or Minnesota :)

The Lakers should look to make some more moves. Malone + Grant + Payton = too damn old! Add Vlade? Even MORE age, less athleticism. Odom still has a lot to prove, and Kobe needs to worry more about winning, instead of how bright his personal star shines.

Rudy T. is a great coach, but he's dealt with great, selfless talent in the past. This bunch of Lakers hasn't met that measure yet.

I hate to disagree with someone that I have complete respect and admiration for, but GP sucked in many ways.

1. He's getting too slow to play quality defense, without shaq behind him to clog the lane against quick driving point guards it will only get worse.

2. Phil loves to win and he played Fisher over gary in the 4th quarter in the playoffs. That speaks volumes.

3. I hate when people call GP a HOF player. I mean he's realllllly good and I loved his hustle and bustle in the past but when you say HOF you are saying:

jerry west
john stockton
magic
isiah

are you saying GP belongs in that group?

I'm interested in seeing what happens next year with D. George, Luke and Brian Cook. I'm also really going to enjoy watching Odom again.

Gary Payton is a Hall of Famer. This isn't baseball, this is basketball, so the requirements are far less.

He played great for over a decade, one bad season does not ruin a Hall of Fame career.

regarding payton's HOF credentials.

He's never made an All NBA first team in his entire career.
Never an MVP (pretty tough to be voted MVP i'll admit)

I'll throw two more names at you. As contemporaries, but not on stockton's level.

Kevin Johnson
Tim Hardaway

Tim used to break peoples ankles, and Kevin was soooo solid.

Both of them made All NBA first team on multiple years. Both of them had higher scoring averages for multiple years and both of them averaged over 10 assists per game for multiple seasons and have several seasons with a 9+ apg average. I think Payton had only 1 year with a 9+ average. Plus it took Payton 4 or 5 years to really get going.

Do I think he'll get elected. Yes.
Should he be mentioned in the same HOF breath as Shaq, Kobe, and Karl.

No way.

One more thing
 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Side Notes:
There is no way Kobe is the next MJ. There probably won't be another MJ for a long, long time. He was the epitome of an all-around player, on and off the court. He never went public with his feelings about his teammates. He was a Grade A asshole (read the books), but his teammates respected him because he was such a class act with the media. He was America's player.

Malone is not coming back for sure. Last I heard, the Spurs were courting him (dammit). Odom is not like Pippen. He has not played with Kobe yet and they have a long way to go to establish chemistry: Look what happened this year with GP and Karl. I think they are both on their last legs. It's easy to blame the triangle offense when your entire team doesn't have confidence in you. GP got schooled by Chauncey Billups, and he got the Finals MVP for it. Malone got injured this year and missed a lot of games. He probably isn't looking forward to this "running offense" at his age.

Worst of all, IMHO, the man who was holding this team together has packed his bags and left the Staples Center. Phil Jackson was the glue for this team, and he's gone. Don't get me wrong, Rudy T is a great coach, but he's never dealt with a team like this. LA fans will not settle for second best. His Houston title teams remind me of the Pistons: they played like a team. He's got to gel this team together when very few of the players on the roster have experience playing together. He's got a real tough job ahead; this is definitely going to be a trying year.

Los Angeles won't be a western conference cellar-dweller by any means, but their domination is over.

When the starting lineup includes Grant (useless center), Malone (too old, will he even be playing?), and Payton (too old, will he even be a starter?)...then that's pretty depressing. Do you honestly believe this team can keep up with the new-Nuggets, Spurs, Mavericks, Pacers, Pistons, Heat, etc? They've got a star in the making (odom), a superstar who won't pass the ball (Kobey), and a few "up and comers"(Walton mainly)......other then that, its a pretty sad lineup.

Here's my bold prediction(assuming the Laker's don't add anyone of note between now and the start of the season): Clippers finish off with a better record then the Lakers.

Thank god someone cleared up the Kobe being MJ statement.

MJ made people better around him. The only person Kobe is concerned about, is Kobe. He'll get his 25 shots a game. At any cost. And whine like a little baby at any cost as well. It doesn't change the fact he's the most exciting scorer, maybe ever, to play in the NBA. Guys got more talent that MJ ever had. Maybe one day he'll grow up and be the leader he needs to be. Then you can compare him to MJ.

Odom the next Pippen? Quite possibly. This guy is good.

The bench is much more depleated. No Fish. You haven't signed Malone yet. And unless you have Vlade, you've got an overpaid, overrated center. The entire Midwest with the exception of Utah will probably run the Lakers of the table. They can't compete with Sacramento now, and the Suns made some decent offseason moves. Lakers are probably the 8th or 9th team in the west. Still, respectable by all means. They'll be fine. Not to mention, Vince Carter and Jason Kidd are still out there. Jerry Buss isn't going to be sitting still with those 2 names still out there, and an aging Gary Payton making 5.5 million next year.

Kobe is not as selfish, greedy, as everyone makes it out to be. I've been claiming that for ever. Can you please tell me which year Kobe shot the ball 25 times a game? He averaged 23 FA per game in '02-'03, but he also averaged 30 PPG. If he averages 25 this coming year, so what? He's the focal point now. Something would be wrong if he didn't get 25 shots a game. Also, Kobe's assists numbers have been good during the Phil era, around 5 APG. That is only half an assist or so less than MJ during his time under Phil and the triangle. Kobe was never the one asking for more touches. It was always Shaq, Payton, or even Glen Rice.

First of all, 23 FA per game is a lot, and only putting in 30 ppg reflects his poor shooting percentage(~43 percent last year). 5.5 assists per game? With Shaq down the middle? Are you kidding me? I could get 5.5 assists per game playing with shaq. MJ had less assists per game because he had nobody comparable to pass it to! Even playing on the terrible Wizards, MJ still managed ~5 assists per game. There's NO reason why Kobe shouldn't have had upwards of 8, 9, or 10 assists per game playing with Shaq.

Let me know at the end of next season how many assists per game Dwayne Wade has with Shaq :)

Actually, you are incorrect about a couple things.

Payton made All NBA first team twice (97-98 and 99-00).

Kevin Johnson never made All NBA first team, and Hardaway made it once (96-97), not multiple years. Check out HERE for the list.

KJ had five seasons of averaging 20 plus points per game, and Hardaway also did it 5 times. Payton did it seven times though, and he has a higher career scoring average (barely) and his highest scoring average for a year is more that KJ's and Hardaway's highest.

Maybe you mean that the two scored more in particular years than Payton, but I don't see what point that proves.

For refrence: KJ played 12 seasons, Hardaway 13, and Payton has played 14.

Brian Grant is not a center, especially in the Western Conference. Unless they pick up Dampier, they're going to find it difficult making the play-offs.

My wife tells me that every day.

Sorry, I was getting that info from a link I posted above. I was trying to do some research and I forgot to check my source.

I stand, sit, and lay corrected.

I can't see how the analogies to Jordan for Kobe. He is not Jordan. Jordan never disappeared in the post season nor, most importantly, the NBA finals. Jordan did what it took to make his team win. He had the ability to make his will literally take over a game so his team would win. Kobe has a tendency to disappear and moreover hasn't shown to this point he can make his team mates play better. Kobe is an outstanding player but until he does this stuff on his own he is still just another Jordan wannabe. Can he eventually step up to be favorably compared to Jordan... absolutely but he has yet to prove it.

As everybody is saying, the question will be, can Kobe be the great team leader/motivator that MJ was? I have my doubts...

Well, let's see here. Kobe Bryant is 5 years younger now than Michael was when he actually started winning his championships. Take what you know about Kobe now and give it 5 years of maturation. It's mindblowing.

Let's delete the time MJ played college. So we now have 3 years left for Kobe to step up his game to legendary standards. He now has his opportunity to mold a new team around himself and "his supporting cast." We will see.. He has the skills, let's see if he has the heart.

looks like lakers are gonna pick up Vlade and maybe give him the $4.9 mil left on the payroll. Malone and Horace Grant won't be back. i coulda told ya that even if they weren't gonna pick up Vlade or make a stab at Dampier(which btw, looks like knicks are trying to land him)

i'm looking forward to next season. i think the lakers, depsite what the nay sayers think, will do well. i still believe they have as much of a shot of at least making the conference finals as Detroit was projected to win the finals.

and yeah, kobe is not MJ. i don't think anyone will ever be MJ. but give him time to mature and i think his team skills will improve enough to be able to reasonably compare the two.

Don't count Malone out. Some say that with Vlade's signing, Malone will look at it as a better environment to return to.

Why does everyone try to compare Kobe to MJ? You can look at all the stats you want, but it is difficult to put into numbers exactly what MJ brought to the table. MJ was the greatest single weapon in Basketball ever. Everyone else pales in comparison to him as for what he did for the Bulls and winning championships. As long as Jordan was on your team, you knew there was always a chance of winning the game-no matter how badly he (or the rest of the team) was playing during the game. I don't get that same feeling with Kobe. It seems like if Kobe is having a bad night, then he brings the rest of the team down with him. The Lakers were successful only because they had both Shaq and Kobe and it was unusual for both to have an off night simultaneously. Kobe needs to develop that winning attitude-and that total confidence that MJ had despite how he was feeling that particular day or how his teammates were playing. Until that happens, Kobe will be a great talent but certainly not of the same caliber as MJ. Can we stop the comparisons now?

Remember the start of last season, when Kobe had to (try and) do it all himself? Well that's what all, or some, of the next 5 years could look like...even with Vlad. Think about what that will do to his body..he might not even get a chance to play past his early 30's..

Malone won't come back for league minimum again. The Lakers aren't good enough to win a championship. It's a re-building year, and why the hell would he put himself through more torture with a team that can't get him what he wants. Yes, that's right, can't.

It's going to take alot more then Divac to get this team to the big dance.

Yes, signing Vlade is a big step, IMO that makes them without a doubt a playoff threat in the west. But be honest, are they REALLY good enough to be the top dog in the west? To me, not yet. But, we'll see whent he season gets going, maybe this team will surprise everyone. I don't think Malone takes that chance.

IMO, Malone will sign with the Spurs. If they really want him.

Perhaps I am too anal about statistics some times, but for the record, Jordan was 28 at the end of the 90-91 season when he won his first title.

Kobe turns 26 next month. That makes Jordan, about 2 and a half years younger "when he actually started winning championships" than you stated (5).

Check out HERE, HERE and HERE for verification.

Kobe was younger when he first won, and has 3 to boot, but Shaq was the driving force and the NBA Finals MVP all three title years. Kobe was his Pippen. Out of all the years Shaq and Kobe played together, Bryant outscored Shaq twice, and they lost to the Spurs and the Pistons in the playoffs of those years.

Now about the comparisons:

Kobe has yet to win a League MVP or Defensive player of the year award. He has never shoot 50 percent from the field for a season. He has only averaged over 2 steals per game once in his career. He has only averaged 1 block per game once in his career. He has not yet averaged over 7 rebounds a game or 8 assists per game. He has not averaged over 30 points per game for a year.

This is through the age of 26, including 2 more years of NBA experience than Jordan had by the age of 26.

Jordan, by the time he finished the 88-89 season at the age of 26, had won a League MVP and Defensive Player of the year award. He shot over 50 percent from the field 3 out of 5 seasons. He averaged over 2 steals per game every season. He avearaged over a block per game 3 out of 5 seasons. He avearged over 7 rebounds and 8 assists per game for a season
(8 and 8). He averaged over 30 points per game 3 out of 5 seasons.

For the record, Jordan's second year he only played 18 games due to injury. His scoring and field goal percentage don't favor the statistics I posted, but his steals and blocks averages do. It's about a push, so I included that year anways

Statistically they don't compare at similar ages. As far as the intangibles that make a player great, I think others in this thread have commented very well on what makes Jordan a better player than Bryant.

Scoring was up in the league when Jordan was early in his career, but unfortunately there is not a consensus on how to draw fair comparisons in such situations. Regardless, the League MVP and Defensive Player of the year aren't a product of a high scoring league, more so, they were great accomplishments achieved at a time when Bird and Magic were also in their prime.

What really sucks is I couldn't get Heat season tickets.

As far as I'm concerned Kobe pales in comparison for all the reasons you enumerated. Kobe has the physical talent however legend transcends the physical and becomes emotional and will driven. The inability for a player to settle for anything less than winning... no matter what it takes. That's Jordan's mystique and legend. Kobe has no of that yet. Again it's a matter of heart and will which Kobe hasn't shown he possesses yet. I hope he , if not-guilty, gets the opportunity to prove what his game is really about.

Well, this degenerated into a Kobe hatefest (not to say that I don't agree...I just don't think you can favorably compare Kobe, or anyone, to MJ).

The more import thing the Lakers need to look at is getting someone to draw doubles off Kobe; otherwise teams are going to collapse on him everytime he touches the ball.

You can argue that Odom or Butler will be that guy, but as an opposing coach, I would rather play single coverage on those too, and let their defenders play help defense on Kobe. I would rather take my chances leaving Odom open than letting Kobe get off an eas(y|ier) shot.

I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that Kobe, Odom and Butler all play the same position. (I know Odom was playing the 4 in Miami, but he's really more of a 3, and he played the 2 sporadically as a Clip). So, the Lakers are either gonna run a four guard team (Payton, Kobe, Odom, Butler), or one of those are gonna have to come off the bench along with George. I just don't think there's enough minutes in the game to accomodate all of those players. (Although, if I were Kupchak, I would look at trading George and trying to bring in a backup PG. Golden State now has three PGs under contract...pick up the phone, man).

I understand what you're saying by the Kobe hatefest inference but this thread was started to promote Kobe's future ascension to Michael Jordan's throne- being the best basketball player ever. I too am amazed at Kobe's talents for playing basketball and am a huge fan. This guy has all the tools needed to start the climb but it just disturbs me when people incorrectly compare the the two players. Michael Jordan is one of those few players that transcends the game... not only in skill, professional accomplishment, and reliability but one whose unparalleled resume is just unexplainable due to the intangible. Explainable only if given the ability to factor in the intangible: heart, dedication, and the undying will to succeed. Kobe must climb this mountain of intangibles to be placed upon the legend that is "Mountain MJ." External supposition, projection, nor assumption will do it for him. The era of "Showtime" is over. It is now "Kobe's Time." We'll all soon see if Kobe is worth his weight in hype... or at least worth 320lbs+.

Well MJ obviously wasn't the end-all be-all of basketball 'cause he couldn't run a franchise for shit. I think he's one of the greatest to play the game, but whatever level of ascension you're putting MJ on is purely speculative in a fan's eye. I'm just talking about court-wise.

well, i guess i wont count Malone out just yet. i heard about the way he told the lakers to go after Vlade first before they worry about him. his comments sounded encouraging. if he does come back, and if he's healthy and can make it through the season without any probs, i'd be saying the lakers still have a shot at making it to the finals. i think with Shaq outta the mix, Karl will be more apt to take the shots he knows he can, instead of being so gun shy like he was last season. kobe and karl can be a potential threat at the pick and roll like stockton and malone were. kobe just needs to learn it. i can't tell you how many times i was pissed last season when i saw perfect pick and roll opportunities were missed because kobe kept the ball when getting double teamed, grrrrr....

i'm hopeful :D

Is it football season yet? :D

--jaded

Running a franchise is not what we're are or have been talking baout when MJ iwas concerned. Nor did we compare Kobe's "other" court-wise issues that are now going on. "Court-wise" IS the only comparison Hal and I'm just indicating that there still aren't a lot of court-wise comparisions to be able to put Kobe up with Michael. It's a team sport but Kobe, as Jordan did, will have to be the end-all-be-all be all for his Lakers. He must make them better and win championships without a Shaq Diesel as Jordan did. As far as MJ being one of the best basketball players ever... he's overwhelminglu regarded as THE best to ever play the game. I wuwish the Lakers well as it would be a shame for such a storied franchise to go into a downward spiral. With Kobe on board I think that scenario is impossible, I just want to see what he can do without one of the most dominating centers the league has ever seen.

I'm still baffled that people actually think the Lake show will be a threat in the west next year. Vlade does not make them a shoe-in either, the man is old as hades, moves like the tin man, he'll maybe play 30 minutes a game. Not to mention the Lakers have 0 depth on the bench this year except for maybe Butler. Maybe Rush and Walton will develop into nice role players, but they are still young and still have to prove themselves... no one game in the playoff's does not count for proving themselves.

1-Minnesota 2- San Antonio 3- Sacramento 4- Dallas 5-Memphis 6- Denver 7- Houston 8- Portland, Utah, Pheonix, Lakers.

I'm betting they will be a first round exit if that.

yeah, the lakers will make the playoffs, but when the heat play them, they'll lose =) Shaq said he was gonna return to his "leaner and meaner" days like he was with the Magic. A lean shaq is a scary shaq, plus a great PG in wade and consistent scorer in jones, Heat are going to the top. (Might be biased, check my location)

nm

I agree totally with you. The Lakers, even with Kobe, have to be devalued after Shaq has made his departure. The Heat's valuation must go through the roof . Shaq is argueably the most dominating center to have ever played the pro game. The Heat are absolutely ahead of the Lakers as far as off season acquisitions are concerned. God help Kobe when he brings it to the middle against the Heat... I'm sure though that the Lakers have upgraded his medical insurance policy for just this inevitability. I don't want to piss off Hal anymore than I already have so that will be all I have to say on this issue.

Mojo, i don't remember seeing anyone here saying Vlade made the Lakers a shoe-in. why even make that comment? but adding Vlade does give them a better chance. he's one of the better passing center's in the league great with pick and rolls and high posts drawing out the defense. plus, he can flop :D

anyways, i don't know if you were referring to my last post or not, since i did mention Vlade. if you were, re-read it. if you're talkin about Hal's posts, hell, to me he's just trying to be upbeat and behind his team which any real fan would do, albeit a little cocky, but that's just Hal, heh.

besides anything in these threads is all speculation and assumption. you can argue it to death, but no one knows what will happen until the season gets underway. i'm sure we'll have some people saying i told you so..... blah blah, hindsight is always 20/20.

i always like hearing what other people think, but no one really knows shit. speculation about what will happen next season is just that. can you really tell me you picked Detroit to win the finals before the start of last season? (besides the obvious Detroit fans) don't think anyone did. seemed to me everyone was picking the lakers before all the crap with Kobe and the injuries happened.

I disagree on Rush at least. He was starter in many games last year, he filled in fine during Kobe's injuries. He is a very good defender too.

Are you still bitter over Rush's performance in Game 6 of the WCF's? :)

ditto, goddfather..... Rush was huge with 3 pointers and steals in several games during the playoffs. my view on Walton is his rookiness was still showing through, he made several bad mistakes at inopportune times. and yeah, he did have one good game in the finals with Detroit. he has a lot of learning to do.

I'm sitting here, smirking. I can't understand how people think the Lakers are sunk. Sure, we're done with Shaq, but we stole the core of a team that exceeded EVERYONE'S expectations and came to within a game of the ECF. We replaced him with the best passing (and flopping) center in the game and the rest of our core is coming back for more. Aside from that, we have a rookie point guard who could be the next Ginobili (it's possible).

I watched all these games last year... and I don't think Shaq is so great. I saw many times where the second unit came into the game and completely tore shit up. We have a lot of talent. Now that we have a coach who embraces the skills of our younger team, I don't expect to skip many beats.

You can rave all you want about how much Shaq meant to the Lakers and how they're doomed without him, but something inside me tells me that it's just the haters looking for a crack in the armor.

I read a nice article today about how a baseball team owner used charts of where players hit the ball on the field to tell if they were in their prime or if they were starting to decline. None of the other owners used this method, and so they made seemingly lopsided trades with this owner, only to find out that they had received an aging player on his downfall.

Shaq is on his downfall. Commentary about how Luke Walton, one of the best to get the ball to Shaq in the post, had to lower the trajectory on his passes because Shaq could no longer get up high enough to catch some of them, outlined the same points that the baseball team owner's hitting charts highlighted. While he may be putting up numbers, he's on his way down.

They are sunk! It's possible they aren't even the 8th best team in the west. (BTW, I had to laugh at Houston #7 in that list someone posted).

Haters? No, no ones a hater, everyone, except Lakers fans realize what Shaq meant to the Lakers. He meant back-to-back-to-back championships. If you want to argue that, you can do it all day. But you know for a fact, the Lakers do not win anything with out Shaq being a part of that team. You want to deny his impact in those 3 years? No, it's the haters that discount Shaq for doing what he did, and saying what he did.

The core? You lost the core. Great job, you kept Kobe, and aging downfall? Payton is obviously the epitimy of that. We'll see how it goes with Rudy as the next coach for the Payton/Kobe show. who knows, maybe Payton wasen't very keen to the triangle, which involved him moving more without the ball, instead of working with the ball.

Everyone knows Shaq is on the way down, but if you can honestly say that's a reason for the Lakers to rid themselves of him, then Jerry Buss is a bigger idiot then I thought he was. He's STILL the most dominating 7-footer in the game (I said most dominating, not the BEST 7-footer) and he changes the game in a way no one else does. You also lost Fish, which IMO was one guy the needed to keep. He's still decent, he still has uncanny ability to come in and hit 3's off the bench. Oh, don't worry about the fact you have no bench, now.

The Lakers IMO are still playoff bound. But they aren't good enough to make a legitimate run. And yes, don't fool yourselves, there is a difference.

WHAT? Kurant, man... you obviously don't know what I know about the Lakers.

1) Payton was brilliant last year when Phil Jackson let him control the game. However, in the playoffs, things tightened up and Gary wasn't allowed to control the game like he knows how. That's the big reason why everyone thinks he's washed up. I don't know if you know this, but playing for 14 years with one loose style of play, and then conforming to a foreign, strict and complicated game plan is not eaay.

2) Fisher has been replaced by Rush (who is also quite clutch) and Butler. While Fish was undoubtedly the best at drawing charges, he taught that to Walton and so we aren't missing much of a beat with him. Besides, Fish was a streaky shooter at best. He was not in good standing with the fans until that shot against the Spurs.

3) The loss of the most dominating center in the game was inevitable, BUT we got quality in return. True, the Lakers won't be able to run half-court sets like they used to, but the abortion of The Big Crybaby opened up a gameplan that was previously only run with the second unit: RUNNING GAME. Everyone is acting like the Lakers lost a huge chunk of their game without replacing it with anything. As a fan of basketball and a fan of the Lakers, I'm more than pleased to see that my team will be an energetic, creative and exciting team. Remember how that worked out in the 80's with Showtime?

4) Laker fans know Shaq was a huge part of the 3-peat. However, in the 2 years following that, we also know he was more of a drag than ever. Despite his dominating presence, you have to factor in all the turmoil he caused. He took an extended vacation and neglected to get surgery until late in the preseason, thus missing 11 games. He shows up for camp totally out of shape. He comes to the press after every loss, whining about how he never gets the ball. He and Kobe simply did not get along.

5) There is something that you feel about your team... I just felt like the Lakers didn't have the high spirits and the extra gears to get them past certain teams on some nights, no matter how easy the opponent was. How do you fix this? You change the environment of the team. You mix it up a little. You get rid of the cancer. Shaq was a drag. You can call Kobe a drag too, I'll allow you that. However, the most they affected the team was when the two rubbed eachother the wrong way - one of them had to go.

6) The Lakers no longer have the smug, buddy-buddy team aura that they showed with Shaq. I see this as good. They're going to develop a work ethic now. They're gonna be a working team that gets it done on the court instead of the chalk board. That means a lot.

In conclusion, the Lakers are a totally different team now. It would be unfair to say they lost anything until you saw them play as a team on opening day. There have been so many factors and variables that have changed in this offseason that to count them out all ready would be premature.

I don't see how a team that hasn't played together can be the pick to win it all, look what happened last year with the lakers.

The T'wolves had the best record in the west, & they are going to be that much better next year having played together last year.

The Spurs have only lost one "key" guy(Hedo), & replaced him with the best shooter over the last five years, If they had Barry last year they would be champs.

Denver added Kenyon Martin, but the rest of the team is the same. They will be better next year.

The Lakers might even miss The Playoffs next year. The way I see it there are 11 teams in the west that are better Than The Lakers.

One thing that makes the NBA such a great product is the parity within the league. That's what sets it apart from baseball. I think it's gonna be a very interesting season next year with a whole lotta of mini storylines being played through along with the new look teams. We will see...

I'll give you that, however. He wasen't brilliant by any means. Payton is aging, he's on the downside of his career. You can't argue that. IMO, before last year, he was still one of the best guards in basketball, and he'd by on any team I'd coach. But face it, he's not THE Gary Payton anymore. Not only on offense, but his defense he was torn up the entire finals.

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2) Fisher has been replaced by Rush (who is also quite clutch) and Butler. While Fish was undoubtedly the best at drawing charges, he taught that to Walton and so we aren't missing much of a beat with him. Besides, Fish was a streaky shooter at best. He was not in good standing with the fans until that shot against the Spurs.

Rush isn't exactly consistant either. Without a doubt he's got the game. We'll see this year. I said last year the Lakers needed to hang on to this guy. He's got talent. Pretty amazing upside to him. Still, inexperienced, and he's going to have to figure it out quick to keep the Lakers alive.

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3) The loss of the most dominating center in the game was inevitable, BUT we got quality in return. True, the Lakers won't be able to run half-court sets like they used to, but the abortion of The Big Crybaby opened up a gameplan that was previously only run with the second unit: RUNNING GAME. Everyone is acting like the Lakers lost a huge chunk of their game without replacing it with anything. As a fan of basketball and a fan of the Lakers, I'm more than pleased to see that my team will be an energetic, creative and exciting team. Remember how that worked out in the 80's with Showtime?

I agree. On all accounts. However, why was Shaq the constant crybaby? Kobe threw his fits too. Like shooting 3 times in a game or whatever it was. If Kobe wasen't there, would you bash on him too? It goes hand in hand. Kobe and Shaq, didn't get along. It's both of them, not just Shaq.

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4) Laker fans know Shaq was a huge part of the 3-peat. However, in the 2 years following that, we also know he was more of a drag than ever. Despite his dominating presence, you have to factor in all the turmoil he caused. He took an extended vacation and neglected to get surgery until late in the preseason, thus missing 11 games. He shows up for camp totally out of shape. He comes to the press after every loss, whining about how he never gets the ball. He and Kobe simply did not get along.

Lets get somthing straight. NOTHING Shaq did had ANYTHING to do with why Detroit spanked dat ass. LA was simply not as good. Not as energetic, didn't want it as much, and that wasen't all Shaq. Payton was a tool for 5 games. Kobe really didn't play well. Shaq couldn't get it done, that was a solid team effort in losing.

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5) There is something that you feel about your team... I just felt like the Lakers didn't have the high spirits and the extra gears to get them past certain teams on some nights, no matter how easy the opponent was. How do you fix this? You change the environment of the team. You mix it up a little. You get rid of the cancer. Shaq was a drag. You can call Kobe a drag too, I'll allow you that. However, the most they affected the team was when the two rubbed eachother the wrong way - one of them had to go.

Coulen't agree more. And I don't call Kobe a drag, I don't call Shaq a drag. I call Kobe AND Shaq, together, a drag.

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6) The Lakers no longer have the smug, buddy-buddy team aura that they showed with Shaq. I see this as good. They're going to develop a work ethic now. They're gonna be a working team that gets it done on the court instead of the chalk board. That means a lot. In conclusion, the Lakers are a totally different team now. It would be unfair to say they lost anything until you saw them play as a team on opening day. There have been so many factors and variables that have changed in this offseason that to count them out all ready would be premature.

Your right.

Bottom line, we've seen these other teams, that remained a team, and went through not huge changes, but good changes, and we know how good (argue it or not, but the teams in the west that are contenders, are good) these other teams are, or were. That is still yet to be determined. I just don't think they are legitimate contenders with any of the big boys. But, I could be wrong. We shall see.

In retrospec, The Bulls in the 90's had nothing else except role players, and great supprt for you know who. I could see this going the same way, but that also depends, on you know who. IMO, Kobe can make this work. But Rudy has a shitload of work to do with him.

I forgot to address the bench issue. I'm assuming Malone makes his way back, and we'll probably sign a backup point guard like Mike James. Having Rush, Butler, Grant, Walton, Slava, Cook, Vujacic (our rookie, who shows signs of being like Brent Barry or Manu Ginobili in point guard form), Douthit (our other rookie who has been doing his best Emeka Okafor impression in summer league), and whoever we get for George and Fox (that's actually wishful thinking) is not a bad bench at all.

I think they key to the game is not the talent anymore. It's about how you play as a team. The Pistons proved it. As it usually is in sports, most of the teams make adjustments to change their gameplan to something that resembles that of the previous year's champion. (Remember all the American League teams trying to play small-ball in 2003 after the Angels won the world series?) We should see an emphasis on teamwork and hustle this year. Talent be damned.

Hustle, I can tell you, is one thing Shaq is not capable of.

And yes, Payton is on his last legs, but he's like Malone. He's not a high flyer so he stays healthy and adapts to smart play instead of trying to push his old body to the limit.

I honestly think the Lakers will end up in #2 spot again, helped out by the 3-division format.

Contenders:
Spurs - picked up Brent Barry to replace Hedo Turkey-Glue. Not a bad move, but they remain essentially the same team. They will be #1.
Timberpups - Have to re-sign Fred Hoiberg or another gutsy shooter. Essentially the same team as last. They beat people with talent and guts. They will be #3
Queens - Replaced Vlade with Ostertag. That means they're sunk in the middle. No matter how good their passing is, something about that team prevents them from winning anything worthwhile. #5
Grizz - This team played awesome last year. There is little different between them and the Lakers now, except the Lakers have more experience and more elite coach. #6
Nuggets - Great moves! Kiki should be exec of the year. #4
Jazz and Mavs round out the top 8. Jazz get in through their additions and Mavs slip down through their losses.

#2..you're dreaming.

The *core* of the lakers team included Jackson(gone), shaq(gone), fisher(gone), and fox(done for). Whether or not they have a younger, better core can certainly be debated, but to say their core is returning seems a little strange to me..

Look, the problem last year was chemistry. Shaq and Kobe and Phil just were too much for each other.

However, assuming that problem is fixed now may or may not be a great idea. A bunch of young guys tend to have a lot of chemistry together(see: Miami Heat last year); and thats why those 3 were good plays on the heat last year. The 04-05 Lakers however, are a mix of: a bunch of UNPROVEN youngsters (rush, vujaric, walton, etc), one superstar (kobe), and a bunch of old guys (malone, payton, Vlad).....

Then, you have the "other 3". Butler, grant, and odom. They were successful last year with Miami because

A) they had team chemistry
B) they played in a weaker eastern conference

Neither of which they will have on the lakers.

Because of this WEIRD collection of players, I picture the Laker lockerroom being subdivided into a bunch of "cliques"; You've got Kobe running the show, the guy that nobody likes. Then youve got the old guys, then the young guys, and then the "other" guys(grant will probably fit in here, with who else I don't know).

They certainly won't have the talent to be #2 in the western conference, and with a fucked up lockerroom..I can't see them having the team skills to be #2.

Its late at night and this post doesn't make any sense, but its just my opinion fragmented into a bunch of parts. I would be interested in this thread somehow being "saved" so that we could come back 9 months from now and see how it all unfolded..

hal, just a little correction on the queens....

they signed OsterFag as a backup to Brad Miller who will be their starter. Vlade was not a starter most of last season if i remember. his minutes were cut down to the 20's. Miller is definitely no slouch at the center position. 7 footer who was really good for the queens last year.

i'd say it'll be....

#1 SA
#2 Min
#3 Sac
#4 LA (if malone comes back)
#5 Den
#6 Mavs or LA (if malone does not come back)
#7 Jazz
#8 Pho or Mem

I can't believe everyone is discounting the Rockets so much. I know they're missing a quality starting PG (Eric Snow or Derek Fisher would have been perfect), but I think TMac and Yao will cause some serious defensive headaches. No one in the Western Conference can match up with Yao, with the possible exception of Brad Miller (and that's a stretch). And you can't put single coverage on TMac or he's gonna scorch you - especially if he learns to dump the ball down to the low block. Don't underestimate Juwan Howard, either. He excelled in Dallas and Denver - he just wasn't a good match in Orlando. (Drew Gooden plays essentially the same game).

With regards to the Lakers, I'm not going to pretend I like their new team make up. Too many guards, not enough front court. Do you really want to start Vlade at center with no legitimate backup? (Don't talk to me about Slava...there's a reason no other teams have offered him a contract yet). And there's no one down low to score - Brian Grant is a rebounder, and Malone (if he comes back) spends more time in a mid-range game these days. I could see opposing teams sagging off both Vlade and Grant and push four defenders to the back court to smother Kobe and close his passing lanes.

^^ I'm with him.

I personally think Houston is a #3 or #4.. I say that, simply because I think they're as good as Sacramento. Toss up between those 2. Biggest suprise, I think they Lakers will be much better then expected, and Denver is going to light people up. (Lakers IMO are a playoff team, still.. This however depends on Kobe)

Lakers will place somewhere 5-8 in the playoffs. SA, Min, Houston and Denver will be in the top 4, unless players in Sactown decide to show up and play, in which case they'll be 3 or 4. The lakers aren't sunk, but they aren't going to do nearly as well as they have been, and will be lucky to make the 2nd round.

And then SA will lose to the pistons in the finals :D

What we learned from this: Halx, as great a guy as he is, he blindly but very faithfully is on the bandwagon, unless he has liked them before all this.

Regarding the Lakers drafts picks and some of the younger bench players.

Lakers 2nd round pick-
Marcus Douthit: 6’11/233
The power forward from providence: 7th in the nation as a senior in blocked shots per game.
Summer League game against clippers: 4-9 with 10 points; 12 rebounds and 2 assists; 1 block; 1 steal: 31 minutes.
Against Grizzles
8-12 with 5-7 from the line: 21 points: 7 rebounds; 3 assists; 3 blocked shots; 1 steal.
Against Dallas
11-16 with 4-4 from the line: 26 points; 12 rebounds; 3 blocks; 2 steals

It’s summer league, but he could be a real defensive find. Great change of pace to bring off the bench or to shut someone down late in the game.

Lakers 1st round pick
Sasha Vujacic: 6’7/193 (20 years old)
The euro guy point guard. He went to the same HS as Marcus Douthit
Against grizzles: 9 points; 7 assists; 4 steals: 31 minutes
Against clippers 6 points; 4 assists; 5 turnovers in 30 minutes (not so good)
Real young and I think he’s struggling with the defensive intensity that defines real American basketball. Hopefully he pans out.

Brian Cook: I think he’ll get better and eventually replace slava.
Luke Walton: he’ll be a great bench player, a little slow on the defensive end, but he brings unique passing skills to the game every time he enters.
Rush: They wanted him to play the point, but in the last two summer leagues it’s clear that he’s a two. He’ll be a great back-up to Kobe and have nights of 20-25 points when Kobe’s not there.

woops.... i thought i was leaving a team out. Houston will definitely be in there somewhere. sheesh, can't believe i left them out.