Bertuzzi punishment ???? (NHL) - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Hanxter · 03-12-2004, 01:33 PM

ya know the puritanical approach is to say those that don't understand the game see the violence in the media and believe it's everyday... when it's not... those that don't understand the game are gonna bitch anyway... and again we have the media push the buttons for the casual viewer saying it's a criminal act...
come on... we all know Hillary had Vince offed...

silent_jay · 03-12-2004, 01:41 PM

kjroh
So you have no idea what you're talking about is the point of your post at least that is what I interpreted. Maybe you people should wait before you crucify Bertuzzi for practically killing this kid and see how long he is actually out for, you are all going to look stupid when thew kid is back in the playoffs. Prison holy American overreaction Batman, I agree that the people who hit from behind are way worse than anything that happened and all they get is 2 min. Why should Bertuzzi be put in prison and never allowed to play in the league again? Because he punched some kid in the head and he fell and fractured 2 vertabre, please you start throwing hockey players in jail for this where does it all end are they going to be playing paper, rock, scissors to settle disputes next? Get a clue about things, please prison Jesus head in ass syndrome oh no he's walking the streets, so are rapists and murderers, is Bertuzzi on the same level as these criminals? I think not.

Hanxter · 03-12-2004, 01:44 PM

easy cowboy - think this is a tough one - as phil just said - wait till november...

silent_jay · 03-12-2004, 01:46 PM

They better not keep him out next year as well that would be the worst possible call they could make.

Cubby · 03-12-2004, 02:34 PM

Coming into this debate a little late but I'll say my piece anyway.

Let's start with Moore's hit on Naslund. It was not a clean hit. It wasn't a long term suspension type hit but he leaned into (with elbow) a player that was going for the puck but not yet touching it. Moore made NO attempt what-so-ever to get the puck, instead blindsiding Naslund. I don't know about a suspension but at least a penalty for interference was warranted.

Second, Bertuzzi's hit was bad, very bad. I (a Canucks fan) lost a lot of respect for Bertuzzi when it happened. He does deserve a suspension for the hit and a reasonably long one. The suspension he received I will accept, but the fact that he has to re-apply to play is not acceptable. The league stated that his returning to play is dependent on the progress of Moore. Does this mean that if Moore comes back in the 4-6 weeks (ok..6-8 weeks) as expected of a simple broken bone that Bertuzzi can come back and play? What I'm saying is that it is not acceptable for the league to hand out suspensions dependent on the ongoing severity of an injury. If they did that, then any slash that breaks a bone in the hand (regardless of whether it is a penalty) should have the person suspended for 6-8 weeks. Any blindside hit which causes a concussion, should have the perpetrator out for as long as the concussed person is out. Etc.

As for the fine on the Canucks. I am suprised that the Avs were not also fined that for the events that took place that night. There was obviously two sides to the confrontation (we won't talk about the horrible hyping of these events by the media). Granato could have kept Moore off the ice, Crawford could have kept Bertuzzi of the ice. But more to the point, both coaches could have attempted to calm their teams down. A larger fine to the Canucks but the Avs should have received one as well.

And finally, to address one point that was brought up about Moore not facing Bertuzzi face-on because Bertuzzi is bigger. That is a ridiculous argument as many mismatched fights occured that night. (May vs the much larger Worrell twice, Moore vs the much smaller Cooke). Moore was probably the smarter one to have tried to skate away but then if he had stopped and stood up for himself, this likely wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, Bertuzzi's out for the season, Moore should (hopefully) make a full recovery and the meeting of these teams next season should be interesting (provided there is a season).

bigbad · 03-12-2004, 03:52 PM

Excellent post Cubby, I agree with everything you said except one, Crawford could not have known that Bertuzzi was going to do this so how could he have known to keep him off the ice? Pronger had challenged Moore right before this and Moore pussed out there too, had things gone differently it could have been Pronger that knocked him out. Was Crawford expected to keep all his players on the bench to ensure this didn't happen? I just really don't understand the logic for giving the Canucks a fine.

Cubby · 03-12-2004, 04:55 PM

I think the fine was just because Crawford should have told his players to take it easy and calm down. But I think the Avs should have had a fine too.

As for keeping people off the ice, you could say that all the right people were on the ice. Moore is not a star on the team and when you are up by that much you don't want your stars hurt so you play them less. The same could be said for a team losing by that much in terms of keeping their better players off but you could also see them wanting to make the game a little more respectable. I agree that Crawford didn't send Bertuzzi out to do that and didn't know something like that was going to happen.

I wonder though, what if Sean Pronger had done the same thing. I think he wouldn't have been such big news. Yes it would have made the news but I don't think it would have been nearly as big and the suspension likely wouldn't have been as bad. Don't know for sure but that's what I think...(Campbell's had it out for Bertuzzi for a while..)

bigbad · 03-12-2004, 06:53 PM

While I agree that it would not have been such big news, I think that had Pronger done it it would have ended his career. The league would have made more of an example out of him than Bertuzzi, because if Bertuzzi goes they are losing an all-star quality player, while if Pronger goes they are losing just another hardworking relatively no-name player.

rockzilla · 03-12-2004, 06:59 PM

Speaking of fines, I always read that the money from fines get put into the Players Emergency Fund, or something to that effect. So... what is that?

bigbad · 03-12-2004, 10:28 PM

It's a part of the collective bargaining agreement, you can check out the actual section here

Scroll down to 23.4

The relevant part is

Quote:

Such a player who is thus permanently disabled from performing as a hockey player and as a result is compelled to retire prematurely from the League and who is entitled to benefits that had vested under the pension plan or plans described in Article 21 hereof shall be entitled to have additional contributions made on his behalf in accordance with the requirements of such pension plan and Article 21 until such contributions, together with contributions previously made on his
behalf, would represent contributions for 5 playing seasons in
the aggregate. The funds to provide such additional contributions shall be paid from the National Hockey League
Players Emergency Fund.

It's a fund to provide for permanently injured players and their families pretty well.

WarWagon · 03-12-2004, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigbad
Bertuzzi's punch likely didn't break his vertebrae, look at the way he fell though, Bertuzzi KNOCKED HIM OUT COLD and he couldn't put his hands up to brace himself. I think it was hitting the ice like that that did the actual damage.

This is correct, the punch knocked him forward, and Bertuzzi basically jumped on his back and followed him down for the ride, with Moore's heading hitting the ice first.

I'm glad that they suspended him for the rest of the season/playoffs, but I think that the police investigation is a little uncalled for. How exactly does one go about investigating a hockey fight?

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 06:16 AM

Bertuzzi never jumped on anyone's back, Bertuzzi punched him, Moore fell forward, with nothing there to stop him and a stick to slip on Bertuzzi fell along with Moore, he never drove his head into the ice, if he had Moore would have had more injuries more along the lines of the Draper injuries of a few years ago.

If Pronger had done this the suspension would not of been as severe, because the media would not of jumped on the story with the same gusto, it's just not the same story when you replace all-star with 4th liner

Nimbletoe · 03-13-2004, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
Bertuzzi never jumped on anyone's back, Bertuzzi punched him, Moore fell forward, with nothing there to stop him and a stick to slip on Bertuzzi fell along with Moore, he never drove his head into the ice, if he had Moore would have had more injuries more along the lines of the Draper injuries of a few years ago.

If Pronger had done this the suspension would not of been as severe, because the media would not of jumped on the story with the same gusto, it's just not the same story when you replace all-star with 4th liner

He didn't drive his head into the ice, but he did drive him into the ice. He was on top of him the entire way down. He was half bent over before he started falling, there is no way he would have broken vertebre if he didnt have someone on top of him. He fell on top of him, and went to keep hitting him. Draper got checked into the boards anyway, he didnt get punched, so its not comparable.

As for Pronger doing it, you don't know what would have happened, so don't pretend like you do. Who's the psychic now?

Fly · 03-13-2004, 06:56 AM

i see all the lions made an appearance.........

*stays away*

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 07:18 AM

Alright Nimbletoe someone asked what people thought would of happened had Pronger done it so that is my opinion not a psychic prediction a you called it, try reading the posts before you criticize or whatevr it is you were doing it really sucked whatever it was to see if someone asked a question, second I never compared the Drapoer hit to the Moore incident, I said "if" Bertuzzi had driven his head into the ice they would of had similar injuries

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
he never drove his head into the ice, if he had Moore would have had more injuries more along the lines of the Draper injuries of a few years ago.

can you see it now or is it still not clear enough for you? shall I draw you a picture? or would you like me to quote the post wher this question was brought up? see no claim to being psychic the question was asked and I gave my opinion.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimbletoe
there is no way he would have broken vertebre if he didnt have someone on top of him.

so is this a medical opinion or do you have all the inside information? Maybe it was the fact that at least 4 people fell on him, but of course it must of been that damn Bertuzzi after all he was the first one on him.

Go_AVS · 03-13-2004, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
Bertuzzi never jumped on anyone's back, Bertuzzi punched him, Moore fell forward, with nothing there to stop him and a stick to slip on Bertuzzi fell along with Moore, he never drove his head into the ice, if he had Moore would have had more injuries more along the lines of the Draper injuries of a few years ago.

I still hate these bogus theories. What is your opinion after the "fall"? Whas Bertuzzi trying to punch Moore again when they hit the ice or whas he just trying to stretch his arm/ brace himself/whatever else? We will never know, unless Bertuzzi fesses up, since the act that was stopped by Nikolishin jumping on board. An act, in what might be my bogus theory, that might have saved Moore's life, it might have added to the injury, but still saved his life. If Bertuzzi was going to hit Moore again before he was stopped and his neck broke with either the punch or the fall, then Nikolishin could have saved Moore. (might be my off the wall theory, might be true, hard to ever prove or disprove)

Hanxter · 03-13-2004, 08:18 AM

we all have theories - but this thread is about the punishment - so in trying to keep it on topic - should the law step in and prosecute???
in mcsorley's case he was given 18 months probation - he walked out with no record on his sheet...
what is this? in my opinion, it's the prosecution puffing up it's chest and saying assault is punishable anywhere we decide...
tony stewart has fights in the pits & garages - assault?
clemens beaning piazza - assault?
kermit washington on tomjanovich - assault?

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 08:24 AM

Go_AVS

So you hate my bogus theory, yet your's is fine, I don't follow at all.
anyways, Bertuzzi IN MY OPINION was going to punch Moore when they were on the ice but how was he to know he had a fractured neck, or that he was unconcious? I have no idea what you are trying to prove or disprove with your theory other than the fact that Nicolishn may or maynot have saved Moore's life, which in my opinion is bullshit, his life isn't in danger nor was it ever the press blew it out of proportion which is why there are people like you who think he should be crucified.

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 08:29 AM

Exactly Hanxter the prosecuters need to do things like this to try and show that they are actually making a difference, in my opinion they should be focusing on the murders and the rapists and child abusers, but they aren't as high profile as Bertuzzi, people complained about this after the game which is what started the investigation apparantley. They should stay out of it

Hanxter · 03-13-2004, 09:14 AM

as far back as 1969, Canadian prosecutors waded in, charging Wayne Maki and Ted Green after one of the most violent stick-swinging duels in NHL history...
Green required multiple life-saving surgeries and had a metal plate inserted in his skull during a preseason game in Ottawa...
He was suspended 12 games while Maki was given a 30-day suspension...
assault charges against Green were dropped and Maki was acquitted...

in 1976, four members of the Flyers were charged after a playoff brawl with the Leafs spilled into the stands at Maple Leaf Gardens...
Mel Bridgeman (assault causing bodily harm) and Don Saleski (possession of a dangerous weapon, his stick) both had charges stayed, while Joe Watson and Bob Kelly both pleaded guilty to assault and were fined $750...

my point is, the prosecution should either stay out completely or get in every day...

they can't have both ways and WHEN they want want to

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 09:36 AM

I agree either prosecute all or none, my wish is they would prosecute none but if they decide to at least it will be fair. What was Suters suspension for cross-checking Kariya a few years back? I can't recall at the moment, but that was a worse act in my opinion than this and anything I have seen in a long time. Except for the Lemiux hit on Draper that was terrible.

Hanxter · 03-13-2004, 12:06 PM

4 games - no fine...
here's the top ten compiled by CBC Sports...

Hanxter · 03-13-2004, 12:13 PM

game 7, april 8 '52 - the classic in sportsmanship...

Strange Famous · 03-13-2004, 12:20 PM

10 years in prison

soccerchamp76 · 03-13-2004, 12:25 PM

Put yourself in Bertuzzi's shoes for a second.

The Avalanche player Moore previously had a nasty hit on your arguably best player, Naslund.
You want to enact some revenge, so you try to taunt him into a fight during the game. No success as Moore pussies out each time. You are in the middle of a hockey game with your adrenaline flowing and you are getting mad at Moore. You see him skating and you think to yourself "I dont want this guy pussying out again" and then you grab his jersey and deck him in the head with a punch. Good hit for the coward who didn't want to fight before. Unfortunately, he was not expecting Moore to fall the way he did which caused damage to his neck.

I will state this again: 5 game suspension should have been handed out. No more, no less.

Hanxter · 03-13-2004, 12:38 PM

On March 17, 1955, thousands of crazed hockey fans in the Montreal Forum went on a seven-hour rampage of destruction and looting that ended in many injuries and the arrest of 100 fans. In later years, the free-for-all euphemistically became known as "The Richard Riot." The other team on the ice happened to be the Detroit Red Wings.

The fans whipped up a fury of anger against one of the spectators at the game between the Montreal Canadiens and the Detroit Red Wings -- National Hockey League president Clarence Campbell. The crowds demonstrated their displeasure over his decision to suspend Maurice "Rocket" Richard, l'enfant terrible of the Montreal Canadiens.

Richard, one of the most prolific scorers in hockey, had a reputation as the most hot-tempered player on the Flying Frenchmen team. Always a high scorer, the Rocket was a shoe-in to win the scoring title of the NHL that year.

During an earlier game in Boston on March 13, Hal Laycoe high-sticked Richard, giving him a nasty scalp cut which later required eight stitches to close. The Rocket exploded in rage, swinging his stick like a baseball bat, smashing it over Laycoe's head and shoulders. He yanked another stick from a player and slashed at Laycoe until the stick splintered. Then he turned on Cliff Thompson, one of the officials, and let lose with a right to the face. Player fights are a part of hockey culture, but no one slugs an official and gets away with it, not even a demi-god like Richard. He was tossed out of the game.

Later he would explain his actions to his fans and the officials. "I don't remember what happened. When I'm hit I get mad and I don't know what I do."

The explanation wasn't good enough. On March 16, NHL President Campbell, after a three-hour hearing, suspended Richard from playing any remaining games in the regular season and banned him from participating in any playoff games.

Montrealers were livid; how dare Campbell remove Richard for the rest of the season? He was a national hero and should be afforded some leeway. Death threats bombarded Campbell's office. Warned one fan, "I'm an undertaker and you'll be needing me in a few days." Campbell refused to be intimidated and stuck to his decision.

On March 17, the day after his decision, the Canadiens were scheduled to play the Detroit Red Wings at the Forum in Montreal. The Wings were a point behind Montreal in the standings, which didn't help the mood of the home crowd. By game time, the Forum was surrounded by a hostile group of 800 demonstrators, many carrying signs that read "Vive Richard."

Extra police were called to duty. Despite pleas that he stay away, Clarence Campbell went to the Forum. He slipped quietly into his seat, but nearby fans spotted him. Pelted with peanuts, eggs and programs, Campbell remained calm, but at the end of the first period, with Detroit ahead 4-1, the spectators renewed the barrage. This time overshoes, bottles and tomatoes joined the missiles. Ushers and police tried to keep the fans away, but one broke through the guards and slapped Campbell across the face. As Campbell fell back from the blow, the fan punched him. Instantly the demonstration became a full blown riot. The booing became a roar; debris showered down on the ice.

Someone in the crowd threw a smoke bomb, sending spectators coughing and choking to the exits as the Forum organist struck up the tune "My Heart Cries for You..."

His shoulder splattered by eggs, National Hockey League President Clarence Campbell leaves the battle-torn Forum after forfeiting the game to Detroit.

Luckily none of the fleeing fans was crushed in the rush to escape. Richard himself sat only a short distance from where the smoke bomb fell. Campbell forfeited the game to the Red Wings.

Outside, the enraged fans joined with ticketless Montrealers who couldn't get in to the sold-out game. The surly crowds took to the streets, damaging the fashionable stores on St. Catherine Street, overturning cars and setting fires. Radio station CKVL provided moment-to-moment descriptions of the demonstration, which inspired other Canadians to venture downtown to the Forum. By 11 p.m. more than 10,000 Montrealers and 200 police were involved in the chaos. Maurice Richard went on the radio and pleaded with his fans to calm down and go home.

"I would like to ask everyone to get behind the team and help the boys... I will take my punishment and come back next year to help the club and the young players win the Cup."

The riot petered out by 3 a.m. The headlines in The Detroit News the next day read "100 Arrested During Riot, Game Forfeited to Detroiters."

There still remained the Stanley Cup, but without the Rocket, Montreal's chances were slim. Both clubs hardly paid attention to their respective rivals in the playoffs -- Wings vs. Toronto, Canadiens vs. Boston.

Detroit dumped the Leafs, and the Canadiens won the playoffs in game five. Both clubs anxiously awaited the Finals. Detroit took games one and two, with Ted Lindsay scoring four goals in game two.

The Canadiens bounced back by taking games three and four. Gordie Howe slammed in a hat trick in game five, and the Wings made off with a 5-1 win. Montreal took game six, 6-3.

But ultimately, the Rocketless Canadiens could not hold off the Red Wings. The Wings won the 1955 Stanley Cup in the final game of the series at Detroit's Olympia Stadium with a capacity crowd cheering them on. Howe scored his ninth goal and 20th point of the series; Alex Delvecchio delivered two goals and goalie Terry Sawchuk stifled the Canadiens. The Wings won 3-1. Boom Boom Geoffrion of the Canadiens won the scoring championship that Richard had wanted so badly.

The Rocket promised his beloved city that he would come back strong, and he did, returning to lead the Canadiens to first place and the Stanley Cup the following year. But he never won the national scoring championship.

For the Red Wings that was to be their last Stanley Cup for a long while. As Howe held the Cup aloft that April evening in 1955, he could not know that would be the last time in his incredible career that Detroit would sip champagne from the silver bowl.

linkage

i went to the closing of the Garden and Richard was there - to his death, he never forgave Boston

floydthebarber · 03-13-2004, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Go_AVS
I know I am biased but I think Todd Bertuzzi should have criminal changes pressed against him for the dirtiest hit I have ever seen in hockey ...

How long have you been watching hockey?

Nothing new here. 5-10 games should have been it. He's definatly the scapegoat...oh well.

Jeff · 03-13-2004, 02:27 PM

This is pathetic. He's a coward for not fighting? So he deserves to be hit? Check your head, man. Moore obviously seems more mature than the Bertuzzi fellow.

Blackthorn · 03-13-2004, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by silent_jay
kjroh
So you have no idea what you're talking about is the point of your post at least that is what I interpreted. Maybe you people should wait before you crucify Bertuzzi for practically killing this kid and see how long he is actually out for, you are all going to look stupid when thew kid is back in the playoffs. Prison holy American overreaction Batman, I agree that the people who hit from behind are way worse than anything that happened and all they get is 2 min. Why should Bertuzzi be put in prison and never allowed to play in the league again? Because he punched some kid in the head and he fell and fractured 2 vertabre, please you start throwing hockey players in jail for this where does it all end are they going to be playing paper, rock, scissors to settle disputes next? Get a clue about things, please prison Jesus head in ass syndrome oh no he's walking the streets, so are rapists and murderers, is Bertuzzi on the same level as these criminals? I think not.

Thanks for your reply. I'd convict him of assault in a heartbeat. Case closed. You're a hockey fan and most likely a fan of this guy. I'm neither so you are right. I don't understand the mentality of those who would defend a gutless act of cowardice perpetrated by a thug who calls himself a hockey player.

Ace_O_Spades · 03-13-2004, 02:44 PM

maybe this thread should get locked, since it was started as a discussion about what his punishment should be... we've found it out, much to people's mutual like/dislike

now its turned into people arguing and flaming eachother

there's nothing we can do to change the punishment, like it or hate it, so why bother arguing?

bigbad · 03-13-2004, 02:53 PM

Anybody who's saying he should have received less than the rest of the season obviously didn't read about the Johnson - Beukeboom thing, THE INCIDENTS WERE EXACTLY THE SAME except for the extent of the injuries to the vicitims. Therefore there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to argue that Bertuzzi should have received less than 12 games, as that was what the league set as the punishment for something like this happening. The extra punishment in Bertuzzi's case was for the "bounty" comments the Canucks had been making, which made the whole thing seem premeditated.

And Jeff, Moore fought Cooke earlier in the game, so we can rule out maturity as a reason he didn't fight. When faced with people that could kick his ass, rather than a smaller player, he pussed out, that's total cowardice. Cooke fought a larger player than himself, May fought Peter friggin Worrell, Moore was just a pussy and suffered for it.

crackpot · 03-13-2004, 02:58 PM

I don't have time right now to read through all 150-ish posts, but my two cents:
I really can't imagine that Bertuzzi intended to break Moore's neck. Wanted to kick his ass, yes. But not break his goddamn neck.
So from that standpoint, it looks to me like an accident. A stupid one, to be sure, but there was no intent to hostpitalize the guy.
Oh, and how many Av's piled on top of the two of them? Wonder how that played into the neck injury.
I am a fan of neither team, btw. Go Hartford! Heh.

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kjroh
You're a hockey fan and most likely a fan of this guy. I'm neither so you are right. I don't understand the mentality of those who would defend a gutless act of cowardice perpetrated by a thug who calls himself a hockey player.

I love hockey but am by no means a huge Bertuzzi fan, I recognize that he is a great hockey player, and that he will be great for years to come. I hardly think this incident takes away Bertuzzi's title as a hockey player, and I certainly wouldn't call him a thug, because of this over-blown incident. Those bounty comments that bigbad is talking about were made by May and that is reflected in the $250,000 fine laid on the Canucks, not in the length of Bertuzzi's suspension.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ace_O_Spades
there's nothing we can do to change the punishment, like it or hate it, so why bother arguing?

If this was the case then this whole forum should be locked because anything discussed here is not going to be changed wether it a persons view on politics or the war in Iraq. I notice Hanxter has been in on the discussion and I am sure he is keeping an eye as are the other mods on the comments made by all parties involved.

Ace_O_Spades · 03-13-2004, 07:00 PM

i think you took what i said out of context... i was referring to the bashing of eachother over different views... its unneccesary especially since everyone has their own opinion about the situation

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 07:21 PM

Yes I did take things out of context my appologies, once I re-read them I realized the error of my ways.

Jeff · 03-13-2004, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bigbad

Moore was just a pussy and suffered for it.

Is this the hockey fan mentality? He deserves to get hit because he didn't fight a certain guy? This is ridiculous, it makes hockey seem like such a stupid, barbaric sport.

silent_jay · 03-13-2004, 10:46 PM

I must agree this is a harsh statement to make, while I do believe Moore should have fought Bertuzzi, he was obviously game for the smaller Cooke, I wouldn't call him a pussy he was acting like any other rookie who doesn't fight, jeez why do I want to fight this big fucker, was probably what he was thinking. He should of never turned his back that was a mistake, especially when you know a player is pissed. The only lesson that Moore should learn out of this whole experiece is not to cheap shot a teams captain it's bad for your health, and he learned this lesson the hard way. I still say Bertuzzi was a scapegoat. Yes I read and saw the Johnson incident and I still say Bertuzzi should not of recieved this penalty the ice (Bertuzzi never drove his head) was the factor that caused the majority of the injuries, sure someones going to say I think I'm psychic but let a friend punch you in the head with a glove on and your neck will still be fine, now fall to the ice with 4 other people on you after you are already unconcious, that is where the injuries came from.

bigbad · 03-14-2004, 12:27 AM

No, Moore got hit because Bertuzzi made a really stupid decision. That's why Bertuzzi deserved to be punished. But Moore contributed to Bertuzzi making that really stupid decision by pussing out. And if you really want to get down to it, Moore's hit on Naslund made hockey seem like a stupid barbaric sport as well, back in the good old days you wouldn't see anyone pulling that shit on Gretzky would you? Younger players don't have respect anymore, and THAT'S what is making the game seem stupid and barbaric.

Hanxter · 03-14-2004, 06:13 AM

we're getting no where, guys...
sorry to say, i asked we keep it civil...
it's lock down time

03-12-2004, 01:41 PM	#122 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	kjroh So you have no idea what you're talking about is the point of your post at least that is what I interpreted. Maybe you people should wait before you crucify Bertuzzi for practically killing this kid and see how long he is actually out for, you are all going to look stupid when thew kid is back in the playoffs. Prison holy American overreaction Batman, I agree that the people who hit from behind are way worse than anything that happened and all they get is 2 min. Why should Bertuzzi be put in prison and never allowed to play in the league again? Because he punched some kid in the head and he fell and fractured 2 vertabre, please you start throwing hockey players in jail for this where does it all end are they going to be playing paper, rock, scissors to settle disputes next? Get a clue about things, please prison Jesus head in ass syndrome oh no he's walking the streets, so are rapists and murderers, is Bertuzzi on the same level as these criminals? I think not. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder Last edited by silent_jay; 03-12-2004 at 01:45 PM..

03-12-2004, 01:46 PM	#124 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	They better not keep him out next year as well that would be the worst possible call they could make. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-12-2004, 02:34 PM	#125 (permalink)
Cubby Insane Location: BC, Canada	Coming into this debate a little late but I'll say my piece anyway. Let's start with Moore's hit on Naslund. It was not a clean hit. It wasn't a long term suspension type hit but he leaned into (with elbow) a player that was going for the puck but not yet touching it. Moore made NO attempt what-so-ever to get the puck, instead blindsiding Naslund. I don't know about a suspension but at least a penalty for interference was warranted. Second, Bertuzzi's hit was bad, very bad. I (a Canucks fan) lost a lot of respect for Bertuzzi when it happened. He does deserve a suspension for the hit and a reasonably long one. The suspension he received I will accept, but the fact that he has to re-apply to play is not acceptable. The league stated that his returning to play is dependent on the progress of Moore. Does this mean that if Moore comes back in the 4-6 weeks (ok..6-8 weeks) as expected of a simple broken bone that Bertuzzi can come back and play? What I'm saying is that it is not acceptable for the league to hand out suspensions dependent on the ongoing severity of an injury. If they did that, then any slash that breaks a bone in the hand (regardless of whether it is a penalty) should have the person suspended for 6-8 weeks. Any blindside hit which causes a concussion, should have the perpetrator out for as long as the concussed person is out. Etc. As for the fine on the Canucks. I am suprised that the Avs were not also fined that for the events that took place that night. There was obviously two sides to the confrontation (we won't talk about the horrible hyping of these events by the media). Granato could have kept Moore off the ice, Crawford could have kept Bertuzzi of the ice. But more to the point, both coaches could have attempted to calm their teams down. A larger fine to the Canucks but the Avs should have received one as well. And finally, to address one point that was brought up about Moore not facing Bertuzzi face-on because Bertuzzi is bigger. That is a ridiculous argument as many mismatched fights occured that night. (May vs the much larger Worrell twice, Moore vs the much smaller Cooke). Moore was probably the smarter one to have tried to skate away but then if he had stopped and stood up for himself, this likely wouldn't have happened. Anyway, Bertuzzi's out for the season, Moore should (hopefully) make a full recovery and the meeting of these teams next season should be interesting (provided there is a season). __________________ Don't be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted!

03-12-2004, 04:55 PM	#127 (permalink)
Cubby Insane Location: BC, Canada	I think the fine was just because Crawford should have told his players to take it easy and calm down. But I think the Avs should have had a fine too. As for keeping people off the ice, you could say that all the right people were on the ice. Moore is not a star on the team and when you are up by that much you don't want your stars hurt so you play them less. The same could be said for a team losing by that much in terms of keeping their better players off but you could also see them wanting to make the game a little more respectable. I agree that Crawford didn't send Bertuzzi out to do that and didn't know something like that was going to happen. I wonder though, what if Sean Pronger had done the same thing. I think he wouldn't have been such big news. Yes it would have made the news but I don't think it would have been nearly as big and the suspension likely wouldn't have been as bad. Don't know for sure but that's what I think...(Campbell's had it out for Bertuzzi for a while..) __________________ Don't be irreplaceable - if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted!

03-13-2004, 06:16 AM	#132 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Bertuzzi never jumped on anyone's back, Bertuzzi punched him, Moore fell forward, with nothing there to stop him and a stick to slip on Bertuzzi fell along with Moore, he never drove his head into the ice, if he had Moore would have had more injuries more along the lines of the Draper injuries of a few years ago. If Pronger had done this the suspension would not of been as severe, because the media would not of jumped on the story with the same gusto, it's just not the same story when you replace all-star with 4th liner __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-12-2004, 01:33 PM	#121 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	ya know the puritanical approach is to say those that don't understand the game see the violence in the media and believe it's everyday... when it's not... those that don't understand the game are gonna bitch anyway... and again we have the media push the buttons for the casual viewer saying it's a criminal act... come on... we all know Hillary had Vince offed...

03-12-2004, 01:44 PM	#123 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	easy cowboy - think this is a tough one - as phil just said - wait till november...

03-12-2004, 03:52 PM	#126 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	Excellent post Cubby, I agree with everything you said except one, Crawford could not have known that Bertuzzi was going to do this so how could he have known to keep him off the ice? Pronger had challenged Moore right before this and Moore pussed out there too, had things gone differently it could have been Pronger that knocked him out. Was Crawford expected to keep all his players on the bench to ensure this didn't happen? I just really don't understand the logic for giving the Canucks a fine.

03-12-2004, 06:53 PM	#128 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	While I agree that it would not have been such big news, I think that had Pronger done it it would have ended his career. The league would have made more of an example out of him than Bertuzzi, because if Bertuzzi goes they are losing an all-star quality player, while if Pronger goes they are losing just another hardworking relatively no-name player.

03-12-2004, 06:59 PM	#129 (permalink)
rockzilla Junkie Location: The Kitchen	Speaking of fines, I always read that the money from fines get put into the Players Emergency Fund, or something to that effect. So... what is that?

03-13-2004, 06:56 AM	#134 (permalink)
Fly see the links to my music? Location: Beautiful British Columbia	i see all the lions made an appearance......... stays away __________________ BASTARD SterlingStudios

03-13-2004, 08:18 AM	#137 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	we all have theories - but this thread is about the punishment - so in trying to keep it on topic - should the law step in and prosecute??? in mcsorley's case he was given 18 months probation - he walked out with no record on his sheet... what is this? in my opinion, it's the prosecution puffing up it's chest and saying assault is punishable anywhere we decide... tony stewart has fights in the pits & garages - assault? clemens beaning piazza - assault? kermit washington on tomjanovich - assault?

03-13-2004, 08:24 AM	#138 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Go_AVS So you hate my bogus theory, yet your's is fine, I don't follow at all. anyways, Bertuzzi IN MY OPINION was going to punch Moore when they were on the ice but how was he to know he had a fractured neck, or that he was unconcious? I have no idea what you are trying to prove or disprove with your theory other than the fact that Nicolishn may or maynot have saved Moore's life, which in my opinion is bullshit, his life isn't in danger nor was it ever the press blew it out of proportion which is why there are people like you who think he should be crucified. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-13-2004, 08:29 AM	#139 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Exactly Hanxter the prosecuters need to do things like this to try and show that they are actually making a difference, in my opinion they should be focusing on the murders and the rapists and child abusers, but they aren't as high profile as Bertuzzi, people complained about this after the game which is what started the investigation apparantley. They should stay out of it __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-13-2004, 09:14 AM	#140 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	as far back as 1969, Canadian prosecutors waded in, charging Wayne Maki and Ted Green after one of the most violent stick-swinging duels in NHL history... Green required multiple life-saving surgeries and had a metal plate inserted in his skull during a preseason game in Ottawa... He was suspended 12 games while Maki was given a 30-day suspension... assault charges against Green were dropped and Maki was acquitted... in 1976, four members of the Flyers were charged after a playoff brawl with the Leafs spilled into the stands at Maple Leaf Gardens... Mel Bridgeman (assault causing bodily harm) and Don Saleski (possession of a dangerous weapon, his stick) both had charges stayed, while Joe Watson and Bob Kelly both pleaded guilty to assault and were fined $750... my point is, the prosecution should either stay out completely or get in every day... they can't have both ways and WHEN they want want to

03-13-2004, 09:36 AM	#141 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I agree either prosecute all or none, my wish is they would prosecute none but if they decide to at least it will be fair. What was Suters suspension for cross-checking Kariya a few years back? I can't recall at the moment, but that was a worse act in my opinion than this and anything I have seen in a long time. Except for the Lemiux hit on Draper that was terrible. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-13-2004, 12:06 PM	#142 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	4 games - no fine... here's the top ten compiled by CBC Sports...

03-13-2004, 12:13 PM	#143 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	game 7, april 8 '52 - the classic in sportsmanship... Last edited by Hanxter; 03-13-2004 at 12:23 PM..

03-13-2004, 12:20 PM	#144 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	10 years in prison __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

03-13-2004, 12:25 PM	#145 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	Put yourself in Bertuzzi's shoes for a second. The Avalanche player Moore previously had a nasty hit on your arguably best player, Naslund. You want to enact some revenge, so you try to taunt him into a fight during the game. No success as Moore pussies out each time. You are in the middle of a hockey game with your adrenaline flowing and you are getting mad at Moore. You see him skating and you think to yourself "I dont want this guy pussying out again" and then you grab his jersey and deck him in the head with a punch. Good hit for the coward who didn't want to fight before. Unfortunately, he was not expecting Moore to fall the way he did which caused damage to his neck. I will state this again: 5 game suspension should have been handed out. No more, no less. __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

03-13-2004, 12:38 PM	#146 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	On March 17, 1955, thousands of crazed hockey fans in the Montreal Forum went on a seven-hour rampage of destruction and looting that ended in many injuries and the arrest of 100 fans. In later years, the free-for-all euphemistically became known as "The Richard Riot." The other team on the ice happened to be the Detroit Red Wings. The fans whipped up a fury of anger against one of the spectators at the game between the Montreal Canadiens and the Detroit Red Wings -- National Hockey League president Clarence Campbell. The crowds demonstrated their displeasure over his decision to suspend Maurice "Rocket" Richard, l'enfant terrible of the Montreal Canadiens. Richard, one of the most prolific scorers in hockey, had a reputation as the most hot-tempered player on the Flying Frenchmen team. Always a high scorer, the Rocket was a shoe-in to win the scoring title of the NHL that year. During an earlier game in Boston on March 13, Hal Laycoe high-sticked Richard, giving him a nasty scalp cut which later required eight stitches to close. The Rocket exploded in rage, swinging his stick like a baseball bat, smashing it over Laycoe's head and shoulders. He yanked another stick from a player and slashed at Laycoe until the stick splintered. Then he turned on Cliff Thompson, one of the officials, and let lose with a right to the face. Player fights are a part of hockey culture, but no one slugs an official and gets away with it, not even a demi-god like Richard. He was tossed out of the game. Later he would explain his actions to his fans and the officials. "I don't remember what happened. When I'm hit I get mad and I don't know what I do." The explanation wasn't good enough. On March 16, NHL President Campbell, after a three-hour hearing, suspended Richard from playing any remaining games in the regular season and banned him from participating in any playoff games. Montrealers were livid; how dare Campbell remove Richard for the rest of the season? He was a national hero and should be afforded some leeway. Death threats bombarded Campbell's office. Warned one fan, "I'm an undertaker and you'll be needing me in a few days." Campbell refused to be intimidated and stuck to his decision. On March 17, the day after his decision, the Canadiens were scheduled to play the Detroit Red Wings at the Forum in Montreal. The Wings were a point behind Montreal in the standings, which didn't help the mood of the home crowd. By game time, the Forum was surrounded by a hostile group of 800 demonstrators, many carrying signs that read "Vive Richard." Extra police were called to duty. Despite pleas that he stay away, Clarence Campbell went to the Forum. He slipped quietly into his seat, but nearby fans spotted him. Pelted with peanuts, eggs and programs, Campbell remained calm, but at the end of the first period, with Detroit ahead 4-1, the spectators renewed the barrage. This time overshoes, bottles and tomatoes joined the missiles. Ushers and police tried to keep the fans away, but one broke through the guards and slapped Campbell across the face. As Campbell fell back from the blow, the fan punched him. Instantly the demonstration became a full blown riot. The booing became a roar; debris showered down on the ice. Someone in the crowd threw a smoke bomb, sending spectators coughing and choking to the exits as the Forum organist struck up the tune "My Heart Cries for You..." His shoulder splattered by eggs, National Hockey League President Clarence Campbell leaves the battle-torn Forum after forfeiting the game to Detroit. Luckily none of the fleeing fans was crushed in the rush to escape. Richard himself sat only a short distance from where the smoke bomb fell. Campbell forfeited the game to the Red Wings. Outside, the enraged fans joined with ticketless Montrealers who couldn't get in to the sold-out game. The surly crowds took to the streets, damaging the fashionable stores on St. Catherine Street, overturning cars and setting fires. Radio station CKVL provided moment-to-moment descriptions of the demonstration, which inspired other Canadians to venture downtown to the Forum. By 11 p.m. more than 10,000 Montrealers and 200 police were involved in the chaos. Maurice Richard went on the radio and pleaded with his fans to calm down and go home. "I would like to ask everyone to get behind the team and help the boys... I will take my punishment and come back next year to help the club and the young players win the Cup." The riot petered out by 3 a.m. The headlines in The Detroit News the next day read "100 Arrested During Riot, Game Forfeited to Detroiters." There still remained the Stanley Cup, but without the Rocket, Montreal's chances were slim. Both clubs hardly paid attention to their respective rivals in the playoffs -- Wings vs. Toronto, Canadiens vs. Boston. Detroit dumped the Leafs, and the Canadiens won the playoffs in game five. Both clubs anxiously awaited the Finals. Detroit took games one and two, with Ted Lindsay scoring four goals in game two. The Canadiens bounced back by taking games three and four. Gordie Howe slammed in a hat trick in game five, and the Wings made off with a 5-1 win. Montreal took game six, 6-3. But ultimately, the Rocketless Canadiens could not hold off the Red Wings. The Wings won the 1955 Stanley Cup in the final game of the series at Detroit's Olympia Stadium with a capacity crowd cheering them on. Howe scored his ninth goal and 20th point of the series; Alex Delvecchio delivered two goals and goalie Terry Sawchuk stifled the Canadiens. The Wings won 3-1. Boom Boom Geoffrion of the Canadiens won the scoring championship that Richard had wanted so badly. The Rocket promised his beloved city that he would come back strong, and he did, returning to lead the Canadiens to first place and the Stanley Cup the following year. But he never won the national scoring championship. For the Red Wings that was to be their last Stanley Cup for a long while. As Howe held the Cup aloft that April evening in 1955, he could not know that would be the last time in his incredible career that Detroit would sip champagne from the silver bowl. linkage i went to the closing of the Garden and Richard was there - to his death, he never forgave Boston Last edited by Hanxter; 03-13-2004 at 01:15 PM..

03-13-2004, 02:27 PM	#148 (permalink)
Jeff And we'll all float on ok... Location: Iowa City	This is pathetic. He's a coward for not fighting? So he deserves to be hit? Check your head, man. Moore obviously seems more mature than the Bertuzzi fellow. __________________ For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us. --Charles Bukowski

03-13-2004, 02:44 PM	#150 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	maybe this thread should get locked, since it was started as a discussion about what his punishment should be... we've found it out, much to people's mutual like/dislike now its turned into people arguing and flaming eachother there's nothing we can do to change the punishment, like it or hate it, so why bother arguing? __________________ Feh.

03-13-2004, 02:53 PM	#151 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	Anybody who's saying he should have received less than the rest of the season obviously didn't read about the Johnson - Beukeboom thing, THE INCIDENTS WERE EXACTLY THE SAME except for the extent of the injuries to the vicitims. Therefore there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to argue that Bertuzzi should have received less than 12 games, as that was what the league set as the punishment for something like this happening. The extra punishment in Bertuzzi's case was for the "bounty" comments the Canucks had been making, which made the whole thing seem premeditated. And Jeff, Moore fought Cooke earlier in the game, so we can rule out maturity as a reason he didn't fight. When faced with people that could kick his ass, rather than a smaller player, he pussed out, that's total cowardice. Cooke fought a larger player than himself, May fought Peter friggin Worrell, Moore was just a pussy and suffered for it.

03-13-2004, 02:58 PM	#152 (permalink)
crackpot Junkie Location: Montreal	I don't have time right now to read through all 150-ish posts, but my two cents: I really can't imagine that Bertuzzi intended to break Moore's neck. Wanted to kick his ass, yes. But not break his goddamn neck. So from that standpoint, it looks to me like an accident. A stupid one, to be sure, but there was no intent to hostpitalize the guy. Oh, and how many Av's piled on top of the two of them? Wonder how that played into the neck injury. I am a fan of neither team, btw. Go Hartford! Heh.

03-13-2004, 07:00 PM	#154 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	i think you took what i said out of context... i was referring to the bashing of eachother over different views... its unneccesary especially since everyone has their own opinion about the situation __________________ Feh.

03-13-2004, 07:21 PM	#155 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Yes I did take things out of context my appologies, once I re-read them I realized the error of my ways. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-13-2004, 10:46 PM	#157 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I must agree this is a harsh statement to make, while I do believe Moore should have fought Bertuzzi, he was obviously game for the smaller Cooke, I wouldn't call him a pussy he was acting like any other rookie who doesn't fight, jeez why do I want to fight this big fucker, was probably what he was thinking. He should of never turned his back that was a mistake, especially when you know a player is pissed. The only lesson that Moore should learn out of this whole experiece is not to cheap shot a teams captain it's bad for your health, and he learned this lesson the hard way. I still say Bertuzzi was a scapegoat. Yes I read and saw the Johnson incident and I still say Bertuzzi should not of recieved this penalty the ice (Bertuzzi never drove his head) was the factor that caused the majority of the injuries, sure someones going to say I think I'm psychic but let a friend punch you in the head with a glove on and your neck will still be fine, now fall to the ice with 4 other people on you after you are already unconcious, that is where the injuries came from. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

03-14-2004, 12:27 AM	#158 (permalink)
bigbad Insane	No, Moore got hit because Bertuzzi made a really stupid decision. That's why Bertuzzi deserved to be punished. But Moore contributed to Bertuzzi making that really stupid decision by pussing out. And if you really want to get down to it, Moore's hit on Naslund made hockey seem like a stupid barbaric sport as well, back in the good old days you wouldn't see anyone pulling that shit on Gretzky would you? Younger players don't have respect anymore, and THAT'S what is making the game seem stupid and barbaric.

03-14-2004, 06:13 AM	#159 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	we're getting no where, guys... sorry to say, i asked we keep it civil... it's lock down time