Rookie of the Year - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

JoeyB · 11-11-2003, 07:02 PM

Congratulations to Angel Berroa, who rightly deserved the Rookie of the Year Award. His numbers were at least comparable to most of the other possible choices and since it is subjective, I support the choice.

HOWEVER...

How does someone leave Hideki Matsui complete off of their ballot?? Bill Ballou from the Worcester [Massachusetts] Telegram & Gazette left him off because 'while he [Matsui] is technically a rookie by the rules of Major League Baseball, he is not a rookie in the spirit of the award.'

Hello? The spirit of the award? What does that mean? Ballou admitted that Matsui was a rookie, but then turned around and decided that he knew better than what the rules required and just voted a different way.

Since when can the writers just disregard the rules to fit their own wants? If you need to change the rule after the voting, fine...do that. Until then, vote using the rules that are in place. Jackie Robinson played in a high quality league before he hit the majors. They not only gave him the award, they named it after him.

Berroa deserved the award---but Matsui deserved better.

djtestudo · 11-11-2003, 08:12 PM

The writers can vote for whomever they want, as long as they are considered rookies by the rules.

I would have left him off the ballot too. And Ichiro. And Sasaki. And Nomo.

I am a believer in the NHL idea of an age limit (theirs is 25). That way it allows for late-bloomers and such to have a shot while not letting guys who played at a level almost equivilent to the MLB (officially considered somewhere between AAA and the majors) for a decade doesn't come over here to fight for the same award as a 22-year old kid.

Do you have a problem with how, say, Hall of Fame balloting is done? MVP awards? All are done in a similar fashion. Guys get screwed all the time. Get over it.

forseti-6 · 11-11-2003, 09:10 PM

The problem / beauty with award voting is it lets the voter freely interpret the award. Just like many other aspects of baseball, the awards voting is done purely by human intellect and emotion - and that's what keeps it interesting. Sure people will get screwed over from time to time, but just like life, awards aren't fair.

On that note, I hadn't even realized how good Berroa's numbers were before I looked at them this morning. Comparing the numbers, I think Berroa rightfully deserved the award. Matsui's RBI total was inflated due to the excellent array of players in his lineup. Berroa didn't have as much a luxury.

Artermis · 11-12-2003, 05:58 AM

Umm 2 of the voters left Berroa off their ballot also....so it balanced out.

Art

bond007 · 11-12-2003, 05:06 PM

I agree with JoeyB.

JoeyB · 11-12-2003, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by djtestudo
The writers can vote for whomever they want, as long as they are considered rookies by the rules.

I would have left him off the ballot too. And Ichiro. And Sasaki. And Nomo.

I am a believer in the NHL idea of an age limit (theirs is 25). That way it allows for late-bloomers and such to have a shot while not letting guys who played at a level almost equivilent to the MLB (officially considered somewhere between AAA and the majors) for a decade doesn't come over here to fight for the same award as a 22-year old kid.

Do you have a problem with how, say, Hall of Fame balloting is done? MVP awards? All are done in a similar fashion. Guys get screwed all the time. Get over it.

I agree that they should be allowed to vote for whomever they want--I also agree that there should be a system in place to separate a 23 year old getting his start in the majors from someone with 10 years of experience in another league as strong as the Japanese League.

However--those aren't the rules as they exist now. This writer chose to ignore the rules as they're currently written. Follow the guidelines--according to the rules, Matsui is a rookie. What gives him the right to totally ignore that?

I think the 2 people who completely left Berroa off of their ballot are just as wrong. Were they not following the season at all? Berroa helped KC contend for the playoffs until the last month of the season.

Guys get screwed all the time--get over it??? If guys are getting screwed all of the time, the last thing that should be done is just "getting over it".....changes need to be made.

Yes, I think the Hall of Fame is pretty bogus too. Phil Rizzuto is in the Hall of Fame and guys like Ron Santo and Dick Allen are not in?

crewsor · 11-12-2003, 08:20 PM

Any sports award decided by writers does't mean jack to me. What do they know? Many of them never played a sport in their life.
That being said, I would find it difficult to consider Matsui a "rookie", no matter what the rules say.

ace81385 · 11-12-2003, 10:23 PM

Theyre should be age limit on rookie I mean Matsui is awesome and all but he aint a damn rookie just cause he didnt play pro ball in Usa dont make him amateur i like the way hockey does it also!

djtestudo · 11-13-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JoeyB
I agree that they should be allowed to vote for whomever they want--I also agree that there should be a system in place to separate a 23 year old getting his start in the majors from someone with 10 years of experience in another league as strong as the Japanese League.

However--those aren't the rules as they exist now. This writer chose to ignore the rules as they're currently written. Follow the guidelines--according to the rules, Matsui is a rookie. What gives him the right to totally ignore that?

I think the 2 people who completely left Berroa off of their ballot are just as wrong. Were they not following the season at all? Berroa helped KC contend for the playoffs until the last month of the season.

Guys get screwed all the time--get over it??? If guys are getting screwed all of the time, the last thing that should be done is just "getting over it".....changes need to be made.

Yes, I think the Hall of Fame is pretty bogus too. Phil Rizzuto is in the Hall of Fame and guys like Ron Santo and Dick Allen are not in?

My point is that the voters can vote for anyone they want to as long as they fit the rules. If that player refused an interview with the writer, causing him to leave him off the ballot, so be it. If the voter thinks the player shouldn't be considered for the award, for whatever reason, so be it.

Quote:

Any sports award decided by writers does't mean jack to me. What do they know?

Ummm...they know more then you, or me, or anyone who isn't a writer. They talk to people, they see all kinds of games, all as a part of their job. They are much more qualified then anyone to pick the awards.

gov135 · 11-13-2003, 07:52 AM

I read that MLB will get around to adjusting their definition of "rookie" by next season. It's long overdue.

That said, I'm not sure Matsui was the best pick. Just because he played on the biggest stage doesn't make his stats stack up any better. As for not putting him on the ballot, you can make a legit case for three guys in front of Matsui, including Jody Gerut and Rocco Baldelli.

Here's a short look at the stats:
Berroa hit .287 with 17 homers, 73 RBIs, 21 steals and 92 runs, cutting his errors from 19 in his first 63 games to five in his last 95. Matsui batted .287 with 16 homers, 106 RBIs, two steals and 82 runs.

Why is it such a travesty Berroa was picked? His numbers are the same or better. I think this "controversy" has alot more to do with New York superiority complexes than anything else.

crewsor · 11-13-2003, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by djtestudo
My point is that the voters can vote for anyone they want to as long as they fit the rules. If that player refused an interview with the writer, causing him to leave him off the ballot, so be it. If the voter thinks the player shouldn't be considered for the award, for whatever reason, so be it.

Ummm...they know more then you, or me, or anyone who isn't a writer. They talk to people, they see all kinds of games, all as a part of their job. They are much more qualified then anyone to pick the awards.

So you say MVP should be decided by a writer based on whether or not a player granted an interview to them. Yeah, that pulls a lot of weight with me.
How about the players and coaches, who actually are involved in the sport decide?

djtestudo · 11-13-2003, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crewsor
So you say MVP should be decided by a writer based on whether or not a player granted an interview to them. Yeah, that pulls a lot of weight with me.
How about the players and coaches, who actually are involved in the sport decide?

zzzzzooooOOOOOOOOMMMMmmmmmmm

There goes the point!

Last time I checked, these aren't given out by MLB, but by the baseball writers' association. Therefore, MLB has no bering on the awards except for stuff like what they consider to be a rookie. The writers, using these rules and their opinions, choose the winners.

Just like the AP poll in college sports.

djtestudo · 11-13-2003, 05:49 PM

Oh, and there are a bunch of cases, dating back to Ted Williams in the late-40s, of players not getting MVPs due to their attitude towards the press.

crewsor · 11-13-2003, 06:12 PM

But you just keep proving my original point. Based on your own statements the awards aren't based solely on performance. Therefore they are meaningless as to the most valuable player.
If you value the opinions of sports writers as to MVP based on how a particular player responds to them, fine. I only said it don't mean jack to me.

JoeyB · 11-16-2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gov135

Why is it such a travesty Berroa was picked? His numbers are the same or better. I think this "controversy" has alot more to do with New York superiority complexes than anything else.

I don't think it's a travesty that Berroa was picked....I think it was a travesty that 2 writers left Berroa off of their ballots completely and that 2 other writers completely snubbed Matsui.

goppers · 11-16-2003, 09:52 PM

I have really mixed feelings on the subject.

A) I think the idea that Matsui is a rookie SHOULD violate the spirit of the award.

B) given the Jackie Robinson history of the award I have to admit that it doesn't violate the history of the spirit of the award.

Matsui should be on everyone's ballots. Stil, I have trouble with the fact that professional baseball in japan doesn't count for anything here in the states.

Parabola · 11-16-2003, 11:37 PM

I'm just happy Angel got the award. I live in KC and it was great to see the Royals have a good year.

djtestudo · 11-17-2003, 06:08 AM

The problem with using Jackie Robinson as an example is that he got out of the army in WWII, played less then a season in the Negro Leagues, then was signed by Brooklyn to their farm team in Montreal for '46 before he was brought up in '47.

Now, a player like Satchel Paige, who'd been pitching in the Negro Leagues for 15-20 years already is another thing altogether.

cheesemoney · 11-17-2003, 11:00 PM

this whole negro league thing is bs though... the Negro Leagues folded as their players were enveloped by the major leagues. I don't wanna have to honor some 30 year old Japanese "rookie" every single year. Its time to acknowledge that
a) they play some damned good ball in Japan
b) these 30 year old Japanese "rookies" have already learned to deal with the press, fans, women, and other obstacles to good play that a 21 year old kid from AA in some godforsaken overheated desertball league must still adjust to
c) MOST IMPORTANTLY -- Japan ball ain't going away. They make damned good money over there (the good ones, at least). Not all great Japanese players want to take off for the US right away. If I guy wants to stay close to home making big cash until he outgrows the league, then comes over here, it IS a violation of the spirit of the award.

There was no threat of some Negro League player coming out at 30 and kicking ass 10 years after Jackie Robinson.

Put an age limit on this thing and lets keep moving...

This crap is like giving some 27 year old NCAA football player the Heismann. It happened, but hopefully it won't happen again.

11-11-2003, 07:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
JoeyB feeling tingly	Rookie of the Year Congratulations to Angel Berroa, who rightly deserved the Rookie of the Year Award. His numbers were at least comparable to most of the other possible choices and since it is subjective, I support the choice. HOWEVER... How does someone leave Hideki Matsui complete off of their ballot?? Bill Ballou from the Worcester [Massachusetts] Telegram & Gazette left him off because 'while he [Matsui] is technically a rookie by the rules of Major League Baseball, he is not a rookie in the spirit of the award.' Hello? The spirit of the award? What does that mean? Ballou admitted that Matsui was a rookie, but then turned around and decided that he knew better than what the rules required and just voted a different way. Since when can the writers just disregard the rules to fit their own wants? If you need to change the rule after the voting, fine...do that. Until then, vote using the rules that are in place. Jackie Robinson played in a high quality league before he hit the majors. They not only gave him the award, they named it after him. Berroa deserved the award---but Matsui deserved better. __________________ My mom is a Diamondbacks fan. She really likes the Big Unit

11-11-2003, 08:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	The writers can vote for whomever they want, as long as they are considered rookies by the rules. I would have left him off the ballot too. And Ichiro. And Sasaki. And Nomo. I am a believer in the NHL idea of an age limit (theirs is 25). That way it allows for late-bloomers and such to have a shot while not letting guys who played at a level almost equivilent to the MLB (officially considered somewhere between AAA and the majors) for a decade doesn't come over here to fight for the same award as a 22-year old kid. Do you have a problem with how, say, Hall of Fame balloting is done? MVP awards? All are done in a similar fashion. Guys get screwed all the time. Get over it. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

11-11-2003, 09:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
forseti-6 Existentialist Location: New York City	The problem / beauty with award voting is it lets the voter freely interpret the award. Just like many other aspects of baseball, the awards voting is done purely by human intellect and emotion - and that's what keeps it interesting. Sure people will get screwed over from time to time, but just like life, awards aren't fair. On that note, I hadn't even realized how good Berroa's numbers were before I looked at them this morning. Comparing the numbers, I think Berroa rightfully deserved the award. Matsui's RBI total was inflated due to the excellent array of players in his lineup. Berroa didn't have as much a luxury. __________________ "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened." - Dr. Seuss

11-12-2003, 08:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	Any sports award decided by writers does't mean jack to me. What do they know? Many of them never played a sport in their life. That being said, I would find it difficult to consider Matsui a "rookie", no matter what the rules say. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

11-13-2003, 05:49 PM	#13 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Oh, and there are a bunch of cases, dating back to Ted Williams in the late-40s, of players not getting MVPs due to their attitude towards the press. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

11-12-2003, 05:58 AM	#4 (permalink)
Artermis Insane Location: I live where all the morons live	Umm 2 of the voters left Berroa off their ballot also....so it balanced out. Art

11-12-2003, 05:06 PM	#5 (permalink)
bond007 Junkie Location: too far from Texas	I agree with JoeyB.

11-12-2003, 10:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
ace81385 Insane	Theyre should be age limit on rookie I mean Matsui is awesome and all but he aint a damn rookie just cause he didnt play pro ball in Usa dont make him amateur i like the way hockey does it also!

11-13-2003, 07:52 AM	#10 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	I read that MLB will get around to adjusting their definition of "rookie" by next season. It's long overdue. That said, I'm not sure Matsui was the best pick. Just because he played on the biggest stage doesn't make his stats stack up any better. As for not putting him on the ballot, you can make a legit case for three guys in front of Matsui, including Jody Gerut and Rocco Baldelli. Here's a short look at the stats: Berroa hit .287 with 17 homers, 73 RBIs, 21 steals and 92 runs, cutting his errors from 19 in his first 63 games to five in his last 95. Matsui batted .287 with 16 homers, 106 RBIs, two steals and 82 runs. Why is it such a travesty Berroa was picked? His numbers are the same or better. I think this "controversy" has alot more to do with New York superiority complexes than anything else.

11-13-2003, 06:12 PM	#14 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	But you just keep proving my original point. Based on your own statements the awards aren't based solely on performance. Therefore they are meaningless as to the most valuable player. If you value the opinions of sports writers as to MVP based on how a particular player responds to them, fine. I only said it don't mean jack to me. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

11-16-2003, 09:52 PM	#16 (permalink)
goppers Tilted	I have really mixed feelings on the subject. A) I think the idea that Matsui is a rookie SHOULD violate the spirit of the award. B) given the Jackie Robinson history of the award I have to admit that it doesn't violate the history of the spirit of the award. Matsui should be on everyone's ballots. Stil, I have trouble with the fact that professional baseball in japan doesn't count for anything here in the states.

11-16-2003, 11:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
Parabola Crazy	I'm just happy Angel got the award. I live in KC and it was great to see the Royals have a good year.

11-17-2003, 06:08 AM	#18 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	The problem with using Jackie Robinson as an example is that he got out of the army in WWII, played less then a season in the Negro Leagues, then was signed by Brooklyn to their farm team in Montreal for '46 before he was brought up in '47. Now, a player like Satchel Paige, who'd been pitching in the Negro Leagues for 15-20 years already is another thing altogether. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

11-17-2003, 11:00 PM	#19 (permalink)
cheesemoney Loser Location: Paradise	this whole negro league thing is bs though... the Negro Leagues folded as their players were enveloped by the major leagues. I don't wanna have to honor some 30 year old Japanese "rookie" every single year. Its time to acknowledge that a) they play some damned good ball in Japan b) these 30 year old Japanese "rookies" have already learned to deal with the press, fans, women, and other obstacles to good play that a 21 year old kid from AA in some godforsaken overheated desertball league must still adjust to c) MOST IMPORTANTLY -- Japan ball ain't going away. They make damned good money over there (the good ones, at least). Not all great Japanese players want to take off for the US right away. If I guy wants to stay close to home making big cash until he outgrows the league, then comes over here, it IS a violation of the spirit of the award. There was no threat of some Negro League player coming out at 30 and kicking ass 10 years after Jackie Robinson. Put an age limit on this thing and lets keep moving... This crap is like giving some 27 year old NCAA football player the Heismann. It happened, but hopefully it won't happen again.