Non-physical "what is too far" cheating question
 

Well, I've done the standard search to see if this topic had been specifically addressed before, but didn't see anything I thought related closely enough. So here is my scenario:

I've been dating my GF for going on 7 months and our relationship -- ignoring some certain, irrational insecurities of ours on both sides-- is great in basically every aspect. However, one sore spot for her is a friend of mine I'll call Sarah.

Sarah and I have been friends for about 7 years -- since junior year of HS -- and were great friends senior year. Over the years we considered dating, tried for a short period that didn't last, and always ended up missing each other (she had a BF, I had a GF, or either of us had cold feet). We never did more than just sleep together (never even really kissed) and we still stay talk often and I've even helped her work through some of her current relationship woes. She's one of the best friends I have and we've always been close, recovering our friendship even when we pissed each other off.

Now, my GF knows about Sarah, and knows about our friendship together -- the common mistake (that I have made, too) of asking too much/telling too much -- and is very sensitive to the whole situation. Last night, my friend Sarah drunk dialed me a couple times (she has done this before, even when I haven't been dating anyone else) and this got to my GF; then my SO was upset/unhappy and then when we talked later today, she got upset about it all again and ended the phone call pretty quickly.

My GF is suspicious that Sarah is making moves on me or that there's something there, even though I assure her that 1) I wouldn't do that and 2) Sarah wouldn't do that (having the friendship that we do, never having cheated, and being recently cheated on herself). In fact, Sarah and I have always respected each other's relationships. However, nothing I was saying was making much of a difference and I fear that my SO other thinks I'm defending Sarah's side over her own.

That's a concise version of the situation. I guess my questions boils down to: is there anything wrong with my actions? What is too far? Am I going too far being close friends with this girl? The most that would be in "dangerous" conversational territory is when we've talked about what could have been, the times we "missed" each other, how much we care for each other (as friends), and stuff like that -- but never talking about doing anything in the present. Sarah has been an important part of my life for 7 years, through many different experiences, and I value her friendship tremendously -- but that doesn't mean I'd rather be with her than my SO. Still, my GF is sensitive about my friend, even though she doesn't want to stop us from being friends.

So, am I doing something wrong here? Do I need to modify my actions/behaviors? I don't want to make my GF anxious and upset -- and I do try to reassure her -- but neither do I want to cut off a friendship (which she doesn't want me to do anyway). Thanks for you advice; greatly appreciated.

Sim

I have a very close male friend....we've been friends for...god 20 years now...met him when I was 17..we too tried to "date", it didnt work we made far better friends.

We've taken trips together, share the same hotel rooms on those trips, we hang out, with and without Dave....when Dave goes out of town for work and he calls he usually knows that sometimes he'll find me with Mark.

I have no respect for anyone, male or female, that tries to say you cant be friends only....close friends...with a member of the opposite sex or who gets jealous baout it.

I see nothing wrong with what you've described.....IMO, for what its worth...I wouldnt date somebody that tried to tell me I couldnt hang out with Mark....and I have refused to date a few people that had issues with it.

The few CLOSE friendships I have with people....and I mean people that I would do absolutely anything for...anytime- day or night- are important to me, as they should be important to the person that considers themself to be my significant other.

Well, a lot of it depends on her level of insecurity and whether or not she trusts you.

I respect Shani for her ability to trust. I know that I have struggled with this issue a LOT in the past, with every boyfriend I've had... have only just recently (over the summer) begun to feel differently about it. It has taken a lot of work and self-analysis on my part to let go of my knee-jerk jealousy and just TRUST my bf. Does your girlfriend ever apologize or feel bad later, for being jealous?

Momentary feelings are one thing, but if she doesn't feel bad later for not trusting you, I think that could be a problem. When ktspktsp and I have struggled with this, I usually end up talking it out later and we discuss my reaction. Communication and self-reflection is really key.

By the way, what was with your title?... it sounded a lot worse than it was. Do you consider it cheating, or are you saying that because your gf sees it that way? Let me ask you, when something big happens in your life, who is the first person you want to talk with? Your gf or your friend? I hope it's your gf, but maybe she doesn't know that because you might not tell her how you feel. I'd make it clear that she is an emotional priority for you, that there's no one else you'd rather talk to. There is something to be said for emotional infidelity... many break-ups/divorces have happened as a result of something that started out as "just friends," but I guess that's hard to control. Let's see what others say.

Simivin,

Your girlfriend is overreacting... If something were to have happened between you and Sarah you two would've had sex together a long time ago and there would be nothing to keep you from being unfaithful. Obviously your girlfriend has insecurity issues. Maybe she was betrayed in a past relationship, or else she cheated on an ex boyfriend with a close male friend and is now afraid of getting a taste of her own medicine from you.

Thank you very much for the replies so far -- it's good to hear some others' insights. Here are some additional variables and comments that you might find pertinent:

- My GF and I are very, very open in our communication. It's a great thing and very valuable. However, sometimes we've asked too many questions or been too open, resulting in some insecurities on both ends (see some other of my posts for my end). We both recognize this and have been trying to work on ourselves individually; my GF has done a good job at this, overall, in my opinion, even if there are still things that her (we) struggle with. And yes, we apologize often to each other for this, because we know it isn't good, isn't fair to the other person, and is basically all that is hampering our relationship.

- We both have been cheated on in the past. Mine was a single GF; she, unfortunately, had a number of bad boyfriends that manipulated her, or cheated on her (or came close to the line), and just treated her poorly. That goes along with what you said doncalypso and you too abaya. It's hard for her to think that nothing is going on with how Sarah acts or how our friendship is (or with me...but she says she trusts me)

- Ironically, my GF's best friend is a guy she's known since HS as well. I ended up meeting this guy when a group of us went rafting, and was anxious about it myself (so I know somewhat where she's coming from), but tried to supress those feelings and not let it bother me; after meeting him, it doesn't really bother me much anymore. My GF thinks that maybe if/when she meets Sarah, it won't be so much of a big deal (otherwise she's this mystery), and so that's a possibility.

- Shani, I think that's great that you have friends like that and that 1) you're so trustworthy and 2) that your SO is so trusting. I can also empathize with your sentiment about not dating someone who won't let you be such friends. That's about how I feel -- my friendship with Sarah is important enough that I would consider breaking up with someone who desired to end that friendship. However, my GF doesn't want me to end it, to her credit...but it still bothers her.

- And you're right doncalypso: Sarah and I could have done something a long time ago. For whatever reason we didn't. As for our friendship, it has been like this since my senior year of high school, regardless of who we've been dating -- while we've always been close emotionally as good friends, nothing ever happened that I would consider cheating. Like I said, we've respected each others' relationships (although more than one has fallen apart because it couldn't handle our friendship).

- As for emotional intimacy, my GF is the person I go to first, even ahead of my parents. I mean, I know I could go to Sarah, but I choose to go to my GF because I want to; and I haven't even told Sarah some of the things I've told my GF. However, I don't think this means I can't have deep conversations with Sarah either.

So, I think that hit most additional points I wanted to say. Any other thoughts? Thanks!

Sim

PS: Abaya, yes, I know that title might not have conveyed exactly what I wanted, but I didn't really know how else to phrase it! I do think my GF thinks it is -- or is close to -- cheating, so perhaps it is appropriate from her perspective.

simivin,

First off, the world needs more people like you. You honestly seem to be looking out for the best interests and comfort of your GF. A lot of people would just take offense to their SO and blame them for their feelings. You, however, recognize that it is an issue to her. Period. And you are asking advice on how to handle. That is awesome.

Anyway, do I think you are wrong in your friendship with Sarah? No. Not at all. Your intentions are pure and you aren't trying to pull something past your GF.

I think you are addressing the whole situation perfectly. You and your GF are already talking about it and you have an idea how it makes her feel.

I don't think you will get any real solid advice from any party outside of the situation, so I will just say that I commend your handling of this and think we could all learn a lot from the selflessness in which you are approaching the problem.

You have decided that your GF is your source of 'emotional intimacy' and therefore are putting her feeling up at a high priority, maybe even to a slight detriment in your normal life operations.

Bravo man, bravo.

:thumbsup:

quite honestly I dont see how, in a good relationship there is such a thing as "too open". Your SO is supposed to be the ONE person that you can tell ANYTHING too. Example....on a few occasions Dave and I have met Ratbastid....now....I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I can tell Dave..."good god that man is sexy.....oooohhhh the things I could do to him" and I know that Dave would in no way feel insecure about anything. Maybe its just me....but its inconceivable to be that you can be too open with the person you love.

(forgive me RB...I needed a relevant example ;) )

Some more thoughts:

1) Do you feel ANY sexual tension, whatsoever, with Sarah? Do you ever think about her when you masturbate? If you were single and she was single, would you do anything about it?

2) Explain how one or both of you (Sarah) have lost relationships in the past, because of your friendship?

3) Why hasn't your gf met Sarah yet? That seems key to me. Even if they don't become buddy-buddy, at least she can be reassured that Sarah is not a threat. Has Sarah reached out to try and get to know your gf (or in the past)? I think that might help, too. I find that with ktspktsp's female friends, the ones who made genuine effort to get to know me were the most trustworthy ones. Those who didn't, I never felt too comfortable around... not b/c of jealousy, but because I just thought they were rude.

4) Your gf might trust you, but she may not trust certain situations with you involved. I know it sounds silly, but this is another big thing I struggled with. For me, I wasn't afraid of my bf running off to have a one-night stand or something. I was afraid of him gaining emotional intimacy with another woman to the point where he might put more effort into maintaining that relationship than he did with maintaining (and working on) our own. Does that make sense? It is a pretty well known fact that most adulteries happen with friends rather than complete strangers... so there is some truth to that fear.

Still, it comes down to you and your gf and what you both can handle.

Thank you, Hambone, for the comments and the nice compliments. I will say that my GF is also worthy of such words -- she has put up with my own insecurities and has been very patient with me. While those struggles exist, I think it's still a good sign that we try to work and help each other through them.

Shani, you know, I completely agree with you! I guess the problem is is that we still have some growing up to do (I am 22 and she is 19)...I know I certainly do. We talked a lot and told many things that we may not have been secure enough to handle at first or weren't ready for at that point of our relationship. Guess we're just trying to work through it now, since we can't take it back. Kind of a bummer sometimes, but hopefully not so detrimental in the long run!

Sim

lol simivin Im 37 and I could probably still grow up in a few areas. I know it sounds like Im coming down on you and Im not, I promise...like I said in my first post....I see nothing wrong with what YOU have done (or at least the way you explained it)

Communication is so so so so important in a relationship and it sounds like you ARE trying to make sure that line stays open between you two.

Abaya, here are my responses to your questions:

1) There might be a slight amount of sexual tension but not much. Let me elaborate. I have thought about her and wondered, but not often and not much or anything I would consider significant; as for masturbation, I think she has flitted across my mind, but never more than a brief thought (I think the fact that I'm not really certain that I've thought of her says something). She is certainly not someone I think about often in that sense or fantasize about. If I was single and she was single, I would probably try to date her -- but not because there is this burning desire or anything. More just because we're close friends, we've had missed opportunities, and there would be a curiousity to actually try a real relationship. Really, that's how I think of her -- more just out of curiousity.

2) Well, only Sarah has lost relationships because of our friendship. When we were seniors, I asked an ex to Homecoming (I thought something was there and I was loyal -- otherwise I would have asked Sarah). Sarah went then went with someone else and dating him for about 10 months. At first I toned our friendship down a lot, because I didn't want to get in the way, but then after a month or two we picked up our friendship again. Anyway, I guess this caused a lot of tensions between her and her BF, but I never made any moves to even suggest her breaking up with him. Then I guess other relationships of hers fell apart because of me because, well, I guess she compared them to me or her feelings for me or something? She's been dating this other guy for about 10 months now, someone she really loved, and unfortunately has been going through some relationship problems (I guess I've been a thorn in his side before). I've tried to help her and offer advice as a (objective) friend, but I leave the decision making up to her (even though I think she should break up with him, since he violated her trust). The point is that neither of us has tried to make the other breakup or lose a relationship. I guess, after that long-winded recount, the answer to your question is just that the SOs felt insecure or had a problem with the attention we showed to each other as friends.

3) My GF hasn't met Sarah yet basically because of distance. I went to school out west and only recently moved east for grad school. However, I'm still far from where I graduated (even went to two high school) so haven't seen any of my HS friends in about 2 years...in fact, Sarah was the last person I've seen, and that was 2 years ago. So my GF hasn't met Sarah, but I haven't even seen Sarah in a long time! As for meeting, I wouldn't mind, but it would be hard at this point to do so without creating an artifical or awkward situation.

4) That makes perfect sense abaya -- and that might be some of what she feels. So the question is, how do we go about fixing that? And fixing that without sacrifing Sarah as a cost? I mean, I could drop Sarah as a friend, and that would help, but that isn't really what I want to do.

Thank you very much for your comments, abaya. You're all very helpful.

Haha, I know Shani -- we can always grow. I guess I just meant that my GF's and my insecurities are probably more common with our age group (although not exclusively)

Communication is so very important, and I'm thankful for the type of communication we have. Really, we can tell each other anything! It's just that some of the info touches sensitive spots...haha. But...we try not to let that stop us!

As has been said above, I think that the two girls need to meet. How far away is Sarah?

Well, my GF is about 4 hours from me and Sarah is also 4 hours from me -- not opposite directions, but still about 3 hours away from each other. And my GF doesn't have a car, yet, too.

What made it even worse was when my GF and I had some problems about a month and a half ago, again regarding Sarah. (I posted that time, too, if you want to read that: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=94191 Anyway, I guess my GF IMed Sarah and although she didn't think she was being mean, Sarah took it poorly. A couple days later I told Sarah that I thought the two of them would get along and she basically said that "no offense, but i dont really want to meet your GF after what [my GF] said"...now, that was right after a tough situation, and I've seriously considered bringing it up again. So maybe I will try to breach the subject with Sarah, again, to get an idea of how she feels.

I know they might not ever be great friends, especially after all of this junk, but I would like them to be friends; they're both great people and are both important to me and really, I think they're pretty similar in a number of different ways. Who knows when the opportunity will arise, though, to let them meet each other...

Sim

your friend is being your friend, and your girlfriend is over-reacting, in my opinion.

Yeah, it's good to look out for the feelings of your SO, but this is a bit much. She's apparently given your friend some choice (read: bad) words that your friend didn't appreciate, and she doesn't really seem open to your friendship in any kind of way except what it seems she "has" to not to piss you off.

I think she just wants to meet her so she can finally pass mental judgment on her and say "ok now i've met her and i don't trust her".

Of course, this sounds like it might be "worst case scenario", but really it's the most realistic version of events i'd expect.

Good luck man, you're handling it well so far.

That's a tough combination of distances. However, it has been 7 years, so I can see how your GF might be wondering about Sarah ("If I haven't met her yet, what is he hiding?").

Analog, I guess that's a possibility, but knowing my girlfriend, I don't think that's quite the case. She's been hurt, she's sensitive to these things, and is honestly trying to get over it -- and I trust and believe her. When she says she wants to mean Sarah, I seriously believe that she wants to meet her, not to pass judgment, but just to see her as a person and not this "mystery" or "fear" that Sarah has become or represents. Kind of like meeting your SO's parents for the first time -- you might be anxious/nervous for whatever reason, but after the fact it isn't all that big a deal.

Not sure what you meant by the "7 years" Redlemon...I've been friends with Sarah that long, but Sarah and my GF are from completely different places, so it's more just circumstance than "hiding" that explains why they haven't met. Plus, it just seems weird to visit Sarah with the only pretense being so my GF can meet her. Or do you not think that's all that weird?

On another note, my GF called last night and we chatted for a bit. She felt bad about getting upset yesterday and wanted to apologize for letting things bother her. What a great girl...

Sim

would it make any difference if u had met a best friend after u met your girl friend. is this about time, or just friendship?

Good question, dlishguy. I think a combination of both, although more with respect to timing. Right now, because Sarah has been a friend for so long before I was dating my GF, she's this unknown variable (until/unless they can eventually meet).

As for friendship, I think my GF wouldn't care as much if I became very good friends with a girl post-us dating; she would at least probably know the girl and our relationship would have already been established before I became friends with another girl. However, she might still be concerned if I started getting very close with this other (like as close as I am with Sarah), maybe thinking I'm losing interest, becoming more intimate with this other girl, or that this other person is a threat to our relationship. I don't know that that would necessarily be the response, but it is a possibility.

Send her packing. If she doesn't trust you or believe you it's not worth the trouble. If you were married you would just have to tell her grow up and get over it.

See, the problem is that women think men only have female friends hoping one day she'll take off her pants and bend over. Which for the most part is true. But men are capable of having female friends they don't wanna fuck. Most of these girls are ugly. We keep them around took make us look more sensitive. Like we really care about the oppisite sex. We don't. For the most part we hate you and if you didn't have that wonderful thing between your legs and the ability to suck a golf ball through a garden hose we wouldn't talk to you. We don't care about your day, your mother, or anything else you care to talk about.

But it does go the other way. Women don't like men. That like cock. It's that simple. Whe masturbation gets a little old a woman will go in search of a guy that's dumb enough to put up with her shit long enough to ride. Then once he wakes up and realizes he's been married for six years, has two kids, and scented candles in his bathroom he freaks out and bangs some chick he works with in the copy room.


I got off on a rant there...

Not to threadjack, but someone really should make a movie about you and what goes on in your head. I'd get hundreds of freinds to watch it with me while drunk.

...
 

NOOO! Don't listen to him!!!^^ :lol: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



. . . . . . . actually, yeah. He's right. :lol:

for the most part King is right..but some of us an be human sometimes.. :)

luckily my guy likes scented candles as much as I do....or more :thumbsup:

You mean I'm not supposed to treat girls with respect, especially if I don't want to have sex with them? I can't just be friends with women but should have some purpose behind it? And I'm not supposed to sincerely care one bit about their feelings or their concerns? Damnit, why didn't anyone tell me sooner; I guess I've been doing it all wrong all these years! But seriously, if that's what it takes, I'm proud of doing it "wrong," then.

Sim

PS: And I like the candles too...haha.

See, the big problem here is that men do all this without thinking about it. It's not something we plan on. No man wakes up in the morning and says to themselves, "I'm gonna treat women like shit and tear up all my wife's throw pillows." It's just something that happens. Once men reach 13-14 something in their brain kicks in. Oh sure, there are signs of it at a younger age. Hitting the girl you like for example. See, we like you enough to show you some sort of attention but we're still gonna hurt you. It stays like that all the way through life. We'll go to your mother's house for dinner every Sunday and pretend to help do dishes and clear the table but for the most part all we wanna do is drink a beer and fart on other men. Not to mention spending most of the night wondering how your mom is in the sack.

You can think you lead your life in the right way. Being nice and showing affection to women is all well and good but you know in the back of your mind that all you wanna do is bang three 19yr old Asian girls at the same time. Trust me. It'll come out in time. You'll be the guy that wakes up one afternoon after ten years of marriage and three dumbass kids with a dead hooker next to you and $500 worth of blow in your trunk. We've all been there.

Hmmm, so now I'm also an automaton driven by my penis, without hardly any personal control? I'm at the whim and control of whatever primal, instinctual urges you claim men are subject to? Sounds like an awfully big excuse for any mistakes we (men) make, any immaturities we have, or a lack of self-awareness. "Damn, I screwed up and I should have known better. Oh well, I couldn't control myself, that's just how we men are." The sad thing is that my GF had to put up with more than one such person who treated her like crap.

But what do I know? I'm supposedly just hung up on the thought of doing 3 Asian girls at the same time :|

You're new here... Which means you don't know me very well. I'm sarcastic and blunt.


Men for the most part are uncaring and rude.

Women for the most part are bitchy and annoying.

These things are never gonna change. We've just developed ways to ignore and hide these traits. Like booze and pain killers. Mixed.

All I'm trying to say is that your girlfriend is acting this way cause all men are assholes and you're no different. I'm no different. It's not a judgement on your personality. It's a judgement on our sex. You think I like the fact men act like this? The only reason I'm so open and blunt about it is so women see that we are somewhat aware of our actions. You can't fix a problem till you know there actually is one.

It doesn't matter whether you think what you are doing is wrong or not. If she thinks it is, than it is for her and you can't change her mind.

What you need to be asking is where you can find comprimise on this. If she isn't going to budge, than you need to consider what you value more- her or Sarah.

You could also change your friendship with Sarah- nothing drastic. Just asking her not to drunk dial and maybe hang out when you gf is there.

Right and wrong rarely matters in relationships if a comprimise can be reached.

I guessed that sacrasm might be the case, World King, though I do appreciate your pointing this out for sure. And I know where you're coming from -- a fair number of both sexes do, in fact, fit those stereotypes, so it is reasonable that my GF might judge us so to some extent.

However, I don't believe it is entirely and absolutely that way. While I might just be deluded by self-righteousness (or just plain ignorant of the problem you cite), I don't think that I fall into the category of uncaring and rude; it's hard to be like that if you are aware of your own thoughts and actions and consciously try to behave in a certain manner. And therefore, I don't think every guy is like that stereotype, either.

From a broad perspective, I guess you're right -- the sexes, as an "institution" are too vast for one person to change by themself, and so we might as well just try to confront the fact. But if someone uses this as their excuse to behave incorrectly, that's where my disagreement arises (sorry if I have been taking you too seriously). Really, if people recognize that the way men and women generally act is a bad thing, that it is a problem that should be fixed (as you imply), then how does concluding that things will never change help solve the "problem"? I guess that's all I wonder -- if someone knows they fall into that stereotype, and concedes that it's wrong, why don't they do anything about it (when, in fact, they can)?

Rubyee: you're absolutely right. I don't think I have been thinking along those lines enough; I had been looking at it too black and white. If another conversation about Sarah comes up, I'll try to ask my GF for her suggestions as to how compromise. Thanks for the input.

Cheers,
Sim

King you are a dyed in the wool badass and my personal Hero.

Sim, I have the exact same argument with myself every time my bf and/or I do something that conforms to the stereotypes of our sexes. And believe me, it happens A LOT more than either one of us, both highly-educated liberal-leaning individuals, would like to admit. I am also an anthropologist and would like to chalk every pattern up to culture and socialization rather than biology (gender differences).

HOWEVER. I have to confess that the longer I am in a relationship, the less idealistic I can be about these differences. Regardless of whether or not these differences are biological or social at their root, they exist, EN MASSE... and it's hella hard to change them, even in ourselves.

So I think King's point (and Rubyee's) is that if you can start off by recognizing the massive gulf between two people, stereotypical or totally unique!... THEN you can start to build bridges and compromise. I don't think King's saying you should just chalk it up to gender and walk away... you have to stick around and see just how much compromise is possible between the two of you, and see whether or not you can both live with that level of "perpetual, mutual sacrifice" (sorry, William Blake chiming in here).

Good luck, hope this didn't wander too far... :)

dyed in the wool badass?

Thanks. Do you have any reasons for this or just a statement?

You are a lucky guy....you get to learn the hardest lesson women have to teach us early on. It likely wont be fun, and usually sucks badly for awhile, but is valuable in the long run. Fortunately, as is often the case here....you can gain valuable perspective from the wonderful members of this community....yes, even King. Women have a tendency to test men without intending to, much as we men test them, but only realize we do so after the fact.
My advice is simple....look somewhat deeper than you currently are at the reasons for this situation...and then act on what you see.It may be the best thing your relationship has ever had.

As usual, Tec speaks from VERY good experience. And you are lucky... I think most guys get jaded by their early experiences with women before ever trying to learn (and change) as a result... by the time they realize how much they're missing, they're too bitter for anyone's taste. I think this goes for women as well as men, but men are (sorry) a little more notorious for being slow learners, esp. in relationships. Learn what you can NOW, and without losing her, if possible.

And yep, try to understand how YOU are testing her, as well... most guys don't see this side of things, only how *they* have every right to be pissed off at the woman.

Perhaps I am learning a lesson, Tecoyah...I very well may be. But I don't think so, not with this girl -- at least not in the manner you are referring to. We communicate very well and openly and have had an exceptional amount of discussion about our individual problems/differences so I think we're pretty aware of the deeper reasons. We both have our personal insecurities, which are, in fact, (ironically) pretty gender stereotypical I think:

- A long-time girlfriend of mine cheated on me a couple years ago and I didn't seriously date anyone else until my present GF. I think I'm somewhat afraid of commitment, of loving/being loved, overthink my feelings, and am tentative with intimacy. Furthermore, I've felt the standard male jealousy about her past sexual experiences: she's had sex with 7 other people, but she's my only one, so I've felt a mix of feelings there. I know that my feelings are stupid, immature, insecure, jealous, and wrong. So, I'm trying to get over all of it. Finally, I know I think way too much -- sometimes I feel like I can't control my thought processes -- so I'm working on that too.

- Her parents were extremely protective and conservative and didn't really teach her about sex; she moved around a number of times, and that, combined with her parents, made her quite unhappy. In some sense, she looked to boys for happiness and for the love that her parents didn't show clearly enough. Additionally, since she is very kind, caring, and extremely loving and hard working in a relationship, it was easy for guys to get what they wanted. They manipulated her, cheated on her, and used her. She's put them behind her, but realizes that there is some extra baggage, some emotional neediness or possessiveness, and some bad habits that have been ingrained to whatever level. So, she is confronting her own insecurities too.

That's a concise version, but the point exists nonetheless: we see we have our own problems and that these problems affect our relationship in ways that we aren't happy with. Since we are both the kind of people that try very hard to fix things, we are working to fix ourselves. While we're still not perfect, we are both making progress.

But I agree, Abaya, that there are certainly some things that are innate in both sexes, that almost no amount of concentration will change. I wasn't trying to say that with enough work one can abandon association with a gender and become almost "asexual." I just meant that if someone acknowledges that certain stereotypes are present and also bad (such as guys being uncaring or rude, women being bitchy or annoying), and if enough effort is put in, they can make progress in those areas, albeit not eliminating the difference between men and women altogether.

I'd like to think I have some idea of what I'm talking about, since I have a degree in psychology and am getting a MA in philosophy, but I'll admit, it's still entirely possible that I am full of crap! :)

Sim

No real reason. I just love your posts.

Let's hope so, for the sake of all of us!! :lol:

Sim it sounds like you BOTH have some baggage to deal with... which is normal. Cut the girl some slack and tone down the intensity of your friendship with Sarah for a good while, enough to show that you honor and respect your gf's feelings. If your gf is as cool and self-aware as you say she is, eventually she will realize what an arse she was being, and will trust you more (at least, that's how I would feel) and you can get back to normal with Sarah.

I would think that just your gesture of wanting to make her happy, even if she's making an unreasonable request, should bring her back down to rational-reasoning level, eventually. And then from there, maybe she can meet Sarah, and the three of you can try to hang out together now and then.

I'd be annoyed if one of streak's drunk lady friends phoned continously while we were on a date, and yes, watching T.V. in his basement counts as a date to me. If you make it known to your gf that she is the most important lady in your life and yes you care about your friend but ultimately she comes first.

Sorry, I misread "7 months" as "7 years" for the timeperiod that you were dating your current GF.

Simivin,
I understand all of her baggage, and why she feels this way, but she IS over-reacting.
Having said that, I also realize that americans have a very exclusionary way of looking at dating/mating/relating. We tend to be irrational about monogomy, to the point where an SO is not allowed to find fulfillment outside of the SO/SO bond.
I find this WAY too confining, and have long ago broke my wife of this.
I think it is really cool you have someone to talk to, regardless of thier gender. Be honest w/ your SO, and make sure she fully understands how much your friend means to you, (and don't screw her) and all should be fine.

Simivin,
It sounds like you both are making a great effort at your relationship. However, I find it hard to agree to change your relationship with your friend. I somewhat understand what you are facing. Because of the limited contact I had to other girls my age growing up, I find it much easier to have friendships with guys. One of my very good friends is a guy and my husband had a real problem with it...almost to the point of divorce. I refused to let him make me lose that friendship (as I don't have too many anyway). I just tried my best to show him that he was the one I wanted to come home to, be with, have an intimate relationship with, etc. Eventually he accepted that my friend is just that, a very dear friend and not a threat.

I don't know if this is any help, or even relevant, but keep working. It sounds like you two are great people that know that relationships take work.

I can't really say anything new, so I agree with what most of the previous comments have stated.

1. If your friend is just/only a friend, then you should have no problems keeping her as such.

2. Your GF is younger then you and that may cause her a certain amount of paranoia/insecurities. Live with them, but only while continually trying to ease/erase them. Constantly remind your GF just how much you care for her and only her.

3. Good friends are some of the hardest things to keep hold of. Don't loose one of the things that not all people can say that they have. A close relationship with an old friend.

Good luck with your situation, and remember to keep patient. Anything can be accomplished with time, even getting over relationship fears. :thumbsup:

Definately, some people need a little face to face to get past any jealousy.

Well, an update for those interested...

The last couple weeks had been rather hectic and stressful at times with my GF. A couple weeks ago, I was talking with my friend (Sarah) because she was having relationship problems; lo and behold, my GF calls right as I'm getting ready to finish that conversation and when I talk to her, she is pissed and unhappy and upset. I try to calm her down and I tell her that it hurts that she doesn't trust me at all, that she isn't giving me a chance. Ok, that seemed to work, but the next couple days, I was so frustrated and bummed out that I called things off, but we decided to try some more (and I would be more patient and she would be more trusting).

A week goes by, I think things are ok, and then out of nowhere my GF is upset because Sarah hasn't written her back (my GF wrote an email trying to be friends and trying to be accepting of Sarah and my friendship; Sarah didn't have a clue how to respond). My GF is very upset, and then gets more upset when I remind her that I was going to visit Sarah in a couple weekends for her birthday. My GF works through it, but at this point, I'm feeling pretty disillusioned and tired. I worked through it, but now I'm thinking, "I can't take too much more of this, I'm unhappy, etc." Even my GF admitted that things seemed harder than they should be. We had a good weekend and a fun Halloween party at her place, but my perplexity wasn't going away all that fast and I was stressed.

So last week, I'm feeling pressured and stressed because I was going to visit Sarah that weekend. At this point, I'm not feeling confident in myself or my feelings or anything; rather confused and unhappy and stressed and not sure what it's going to be like to see Sarah and how I'd feel, etc. I told myself that if my GF breaks down again, I don't know that I can take it anymore and that will have to be it. Well, my GF seemed upset on IM and asked "Promise me everything's going to be ok [this weekend]". I couldn't promise because I was so stressed and upset about everything that now I didn't know anything. But, my GF and I talked and she calmed me down, and afterwards I felt better.

Enter this weekend. My GF and I were writing emails back and forth, trying to just be relaxed and such, even though I knew she was kind of worried. I thought things were ok. So Sarah and I went out on Sat -- went to a museum with her and her friends, went to dinner (just her and I, because her friends ditched), and then went to a bar with her friends. We danced and had fun, but nothing happened whatsoever. It was weird because people (and some random people) commented on how cute a couple we were and such, but both of us would exclaim that we're not dating. And Sarah and I both consciously knew and recognized that we needed to be faithful and respectful. I slept over at her place and she said I could sleep in her bed ("and I won't touch you") but I said no, I'll sleep on the floor, because I didn't think my GF would appreciate that. Did I periodically wonder about Sarah, especially with the comments people made? Sure I did. But it wasn't anything I was planning on acting on.

However, my GF called at 5 in the morning -- but hung up before I could answer it. Then she called at 9 in the morning. Apparently, she had gotten on my IM to check Sarah's away message, got bothered and anxious and drank 8 beers, alone with nothing going on, tried to sleep, couldn't, and called me. She called again right after the second time, to apologize. We've had our problems and our issues, and this weekend was a stress on both of us, but I had thought that we could get past it; however, at this point, though, I was disappointed and even more disillusioned. So, I thought about things, talked to my parents about our situation, and called my GF that night and told her I wanted a break/breakup because we obviously both have things to work on. But was I wrong? Should I have given her another chance? Part of me feels no, but part of me feels I should have given a little bit more time.

We talked a little the last couple days and decided we wouldn't talk anymore for the next 3 or 4 weeks, giving us time to reevaluate things. I know I need to figure things out -- I know I haven't been the best boyfriend for her and I've been disappointed with myself throught the relationship. Maybe I haven't felt like I want a serious relationship at this point, no matter how much I care for her, or perhaps I've also been frustrated with what our relationship turned into (since we're both great people).

Any comments or thoughts or advice on everything above? Also, I just don't know what I should do or how I should approach things. Should I just try to move on? Should I try to get out and meet some people/girls (I've recently moved here for grad school and all my friends from undergrad are elsewhere)? Should I try to see how things go with Sarah, since that has never been explored? I obviously am not of a mind to rush into another relationship, but more just want to try to relax and take things as they come. Or, should I just hold on until I talk to my GF? So many things convoluted our relationship that it has become hard to discern my actual feelings or emotions.

So that is that at this point. Thanks for any further thoughts.

Sim

DOUBLE POST - DELETE ME

ok, I may be biased, but I think I'm one of the few people in this thread who maybe has something to say for how your girlfriend was feeling about your friend.

I am a very trusting person and can be quite blind at times in certain situations. It sucks because I always hit the ground hard when my trust is broken. Even today I still do, although I say I've learnt from my experience.

I had a boyfriend I was with for 2 years, who was important to me at the time. We were very open and once he told me that at 17 he had lost his virginity to an older woman, who was also a friend of his mom's. She still was when he told me. Nothing had happened after that one time. She was now a single mom of a little girl. I had to meet her but didn't think much of it. I never liked her much but kept it to myself and was nice to her. Occasionally I'd have to see her at family gatherings but that was fine. One day my boyfriend didn't pick up the phone (at night) for some hours. He later called me and said he'd run out of battery. I thought nothing more of it. Fast forward to three months later, when he came out and told me that on that night he had driven her home from a family thing with his mom, and then he'd gone up to her house and one thing had led to another and she had kissed him. I'll never know if that's all that happened - like I said, hours passed. I'm sure you can imagine how angry and stupid I felt.

I don't like friends who were exes. If someone wants to dump me for it go ahead. My current SO has a friend who is an ex and he was with her for a year. I trust him when he tells me that he would never do that to me. I have never said to him I don't want you to be friends with her. But it's in my head. I don't like it.
I would be fine if she was a friend and only that. But he had a relationship with her. Luckily for me they are in different countries so I don't have to face it that often.

In your case, you see her often, talk to her all the time, and there is some sexual tension. If you tell your girlfriend that, how do you think she would feel? Maybe you should turn it around and put yourself in her shoes. If she had a male friend who she had dated for a time, and when you saw her together with him everything was all so palsy and touchy and giggly, how would it affect you? (Not assuming that this is what you do, but if you're good friends then you must certainly laugh together, rib each other playfully and act like good friends occasionally, just translating what your GF will see)

I'm not saying she shouldn't accept it. But the fact that even other people who see you together say you look like a cute couple suggests that the way you act together is probably not a "strictly friends" type of situation.

I know this is one of those situations where you feel torn between friends and girlfriend, but if you want to be with her seriously (your GF), then you should think whether you could tone things down with your friend to not cause her distress. Yes it's your friend, that pal for life, I feel the same about my friends. But your girlfriend, if you feel that way about her, could also be for life, your soulmate. Or not.

Just one more thing...the fact that you have broken up with your girlfriend and that you are already straight away considering the possibilty of pursuing things with Sarah, means it was there all along. Your girlfriend obviously had a point.

Do you still love GF? Do you have any fun with her? It sounds like you are more relaxed hanging out with friends (i.e., Sarah) than with your GF as a couple. It's only an 8 month relationship; it's not like you have picked out china patterns already. You aren't obligated to stay with her.

Every relationship goes through rough patches, but if you don't see it getting better, don't stay.

I agree with this 100%. You say there was nothing for your ex-GF to worry about, but the minute you break it off you immediately start thinking about starting a relationship with your friend, despite supposedly not being ready for another relationship?

And after reading the thread, I don't see why you couldn't have brought your GF with you for your friend's birthday. I would think that would give the perfect opportunity for them to meet each other in person, without it being too forced. And if your friend is really as close as you say, I don't see how she would mind making some small concession for you to have your GF with you.

Personally, I think that you wanted a relationship all along with your friend, but neither of you wants to risk losing the friendship. So instead of trying to be together, you doom relationships with other people. But I could be totally off-base here, only you know what's really in your head.

Well, I think you've made a lot of good points, and things I've considered before. My (ex) GF's best friend is a guy, and I've had to deal with that and did ok getting past it. One of her past lover's hangs around periodically, since he is a good friend of her brothers, and that makes me feel terribly awkward (she was my first, so I have little experience in that area). I have had to deal with it, and I know I've failed, in some sense, because it has bothered me. I did try to see from my GF's point of view, but I know I didn't reassure her as well as I should have, especially because I was honest when confronted about my thought regarding Sarah.

Maybe Sarah and I were too friendly -- I mean, we were drunk and she was leaning on me while we were on the metro, and people might just assume that we are dating, but we've generally been like that since high school anyway. As for bringing my GF, she lives 4 hours away and doesn't have a car, so while it was possible, I guess, I didn't really think it was feasible.

As for considering Sarah, yes, the thought has crossed my mind. But I'm not even sure it's something I want to do; really, if it was that high an interest, I'd figure I'd be more inclined to pursue her. My friendship with her is more relaxed than the tension-filled relationship with my ex, which is appealing, sure. Maybe I have wanted to date her all along and I've just been trying to supress that or ignore that feeling (that might be the case). It would be nice to finally resolve some of the curiousity both of us has felt for six or seven years, sure. But I'm really not sure I want that over my ex. Bummer of a dilemma, and one that only I can figure out, I guess.

I don't know. Part of me feels like I might just be beating around the bush, ignoring what is really there, or trying to force myself into something that I subconsciously don't prefer. Maybe the fact that this is a possibility says something, I don't know.

Sim

PS: I had a similar situation little_tippler. Was dating a girl for over a year, let her go to prom with her best friend (I was 3000 miles away, but trusting), and she ended up cheating on me. Seeing as how she was my last serious girlfriend, I think it's easy to see why I have so many issues, myself.

Oh, and another thing on considering Sarah, or any other girls for that matter. Some of my attitude is to just take the time and opportunity to figure things out, not just rush off into another long relationship. Honestly, I don't want that right now.

EDIT. Didn't read original post properly.

I'm not saying anything bad about you, but if I was your gf, I would have broken up with you months ago once I realized how close you were to Sarah. It would be fine if your gf didn't mind playing second fiddle, but if she values herself, she'll move on from you.

There is something un-platonic about your closeness with Sarah, if you ask me (since she isn 't your gf). As much as you spent energy denying it, here it is, right back out there... in your own words. All I can say is that women's intuition is usually quite accurate. Not always... but often. Give your gf a little more credit instead of blaming her for not trusting you, eh?

I'd say you'd better date Sarah sooner than later, get the sexual tension out of the way, and get your "curiousity" for her out of your system before it sabotages any more relationships for either of you. Who knows, maybe she's been the right one for you all along...

Thanks for the honesty, Abaya. I know I'm a jackass with all of this. I've felt horribly about everything, because my own problems/confusion has led to everything and to my GF's heartbreak. It's sad, because I really did try to be the good boyfriend; I did try to be her knight in shining armor, etc.

Yes, maybe there is something un-platonic with Sarah; I don't know for sure. Sure, now I can date Sarah. For the reasons you said, I'm partly of the mind to -- even though that will make my (ex) GF think that's what our breaking up was about (though I sincerely don't think so). I could get the curiosity out of the way, we could explore our feelings and enjoy some of the excitement that always brings, and who knows, maybe we are right for each other. Other people have thought so.

Part of my problem, from my last serious relationship a few years ago, is that I am far, far too critical. I see so much good in so many people, but as soon as I get close to someone, I have tended to dwell on the negatives. I hate this, and it certainly wasn't fair to my girlfriend. And really, it might be exactly the same with Sarah (which is kind of what my GF and I thought, once I had seen her). It would put her in a realistic perspective, rather than what my GF and I, through our fights and problems, had made her out to be. And it basically did.

But, right now, I wish I could go back three days ago and be more patient with my GF. I wish I had been more forgiving and tolerant of what she was going through. I wish I had given things more time to see how we really are without Sarah being the issue that she was; maybe my GF would have been over it now. I wish I had been encouraging and accepted her behavior rather than blame her for it. I tried to think about things; I tried to step back objectively and consider how I had been feeling, how unhappy I had been in the relationship, and the chance for improvement; I had talked to my parents. And in the end, that's what I thought was right. And now, I regret it. Maybe things wouldn't have improved, but I think they would have. Maybe my feelings for my GF would have been too damaged, but maybe not. If I had to pick right now, I would pick my GF over Sarah.

And you are right about giving her credit. In retrospect, I know I didn't do a very good job of reassuring her. While I think that her pressure did escalate things, that is no excuse for me failing to do a better job. I'll certainly raise my hand and accept responsibility.

So now I don't know what to do. I want to be back with my GF, but it's not fair to her, not with everything that's gone on, and with my own problems. I want to give her everything she wants, but I don't know if I can -- whether because I cannot, or because I lack confidence at this point. That probably means I shouldn't date her, at the very least for her sake -- because I don't deserve her. So maybe I should date Sarah, even I'm not strongly inclined to, but I have the opportunity to see where it goes.

*Sigh*. And to think I used to pride myself on being the "simple man" who only needed love to be happy. What a wretched state I feel I am in; how far I feel I have fallen.

Same here, simivin. Your last post was extremely honest, so thank you in return. I can really feel the confusion and sadness that you are going through. It ain't easy... but you've made a tough decision, and now you gotta follow it through.

Maybe other TFP'ers will disagree with me, but I want to encourage you to find someone (maybe Sarah, maybe someone else) who will be both your lover AND your best friend. Where you will have everything that you need in one person. I know that's not always possible... and of course, outside friends are essential for both people... but I find it very, very difficult for MOST people (not all, and again, the TFP is full of people who are not in the norm) to have a best friend of the opposite sex while romantically involved with someone else. It is just too difficult to maintain that level of intimacy with two people at once, unless you are an exceptional person (not saying that you aren't, but I can tell you that I certainly am not, at least in that way)... and even if you can do it, your SO might not be cool with it. So it goes.

Let us know how you are doing, alright? For what it's worth, I am just really impressed with your honesty here on the TFP. From your OP to the most recent post, it seems you've explored a huge range of emotions and actions, and I sense that you are really growing here. Most guys (and girls) would never be this honest... they would go on covering up whatever it was they were denying (even to themselves), for the sake of preserving their pride and "sticking to their story." Thank you for sharing your process.

Everyone's been very kind and helpful, but especially you, Abaya. I am slogging through a vast amount of confusion here, which makes it so tough -- if it was clear cut "I love her and want to be with her" or "something's wrong, it's time to move on", I probably wouldn't be here posting.

I feel that my GF is -- or should be (remember, I've been confused over the last couple weeks as all this built up, so things became more opaque than they should have been...part of the problem) -- my best friend. She knows me far, far better than anyone else. We have a myriad of similar interests -- we love the outdoors, the same activities, same amount of going out or staying in, are intelligent, caring people, and want to make each other happy (although she has been better at that than me, unfortunately). Furthermore, we also match extraordinarily well sexually -- she is (was) willing to do anything, basically, as was I. The only real difference is that she has had a number of other partners, and she has been my only one.

After talking on here, and also talking to someone in my grad school dept (who is a very frank and honest woman), I think I'm starting to get a bead on what my problem has been with my GF. Yes, we may have started off on the too fast and thus on the wrong foot, yes Sarah has been an issue, but I don't think my problems stem wholly from that. I think the root of it is a fear of commitment, heightened by a number of factors. Let me explain.

Before my GF, I had been single for most of 2 years and I sincerely felt I was ready for a long term relationship; I knew what I wanted and what type of person I was looking for (which my ex matches very very well). I had dated here and there, but nothing really serious, and messed around with a few girls, but not many. Furthermore, I went to a military school, so the discipline was restrictive, it was time-consuming, and prohibitive to living a "regular" college life. I start dating my GF and have sex for the first time, but I was self-conscious about waiting so long and being so inexperienced, I thought about the fact that she has more experience than me, etc. I think somewhat common feelings. Then I go off to a civilian college for grad school, going through a huge transition in my life, etc. My GF accompanied me on a lot of it and has been a big supporter of me, and my future, so there was nothing wrong in that sense. She really matches everything I'd want in a spouse -- from the friendship, to the love, to the loyalty, companionship, sex, cooking, you name it.

And I think that's why I've had issues with her, why I've been anxious, why I've maybe considered Sarah more than I should have (when I was in such a great relationship). Because I'm scared of that commitment. I'm 22 years old, and this is "marriage material." Here is a girl who is great for me, and well, that's it. Whoa. And since it scares me, it's kept me from seeing her for who she is and for appreciating her and what we have. Add on to that that I kind of feel that it isn't fair that she's had past sex partners and I haven't (not because of a lusting desire, but from more of a life-experience perspective), that I feel like I've been cooped-up the last few years, that I've become far more outgoing the last year or two, that I haven't dated around much, that I've missed some growing up, etc, and it seems reasonable why I've felt uncomfortable when I shouldn't. Hence, I felt uncomfortable, so I was more sensitive, judgmental, critical, and not as great a boyfriend as I should have been and am capable of. I know we should take things a little slower and more relaxed (we realize that's part of our problem), but it is hard. We tried backing off before, but it didn't really help; I think it's just the nature of our relationship, in some sense.

And that's why it's so tough, Abaya. It isn't clear cut. I think I know the problem lies with myself, and I want to fix it, but I'm not sure how best to do that without throwing away a great girl and someone I want to see something happen with. Sure, I can date around, but I just tossed my girlfriend away and, in her mind, she may never let me back in. I can stay with her, but risk being uncertain still and thus not be fair to her. I can try to sleep with a girl in the next few weeks -- to get that experience "under my belt" and exorcise that "demon" -- but I've never been that kind of guy and I can't be certain that would solve the problem. Or, so as not to thread-jack completely, perhaps this is about Sarah and I just don't know it (or let myself realize it). Who knows, although I think more of the former.

My GF even has even said it -- if we had met 5-10 years down the road, with all these issues worked out, we wouldn't have any problems. I've thought that -- as adolescent as it may sound -- if I had had sex with a girl I met a month before my GF (who, ironically, didn't want to have sex with me b/c I was a virgin), I wouldn't have had the same anxiety issues and likely not the same commitment issues.

So, recommendations on what to do? I miss my GF. I want to make myself right. I want to be with her and have more confidence in myself, and in myself in the relationship. Maybe we wouldn't work out, but we haven't had a very good shot yet, I don't think -- but it's not fair of me to go back to her with all these personal issues myself (none of which I thought existed before this relationship). Any suggestions? Or any other comments/insight?

Gracias,
Sim

Let your ex-gf read this thread, or at least your last few posts. That's the only thing I can imagine would put your heart at rest. Wait and see what other TFP'ers say...

She has read the TFP sometimes and she knows that I come here sometimes looking for advice. It wouldn't surprise me if she has read it (although I tried to ignore that fact in what I said).

Oh, and another possible, worthwhile thought. Ever since I've moved here, I've spent almost all my weekends with her (8 hrs of driving; she wasn't able to get a car yet). The driving sucked, but it also kept me from meeting and really getting to know people around here, so my whole friend base is gone -- except for my GF, Sarah, and the folks online, basically.

Other TFPs, feel free to chime in.

PS: And now I'm upset that I got this "ball rolling". I wish I could go back to Sunday and make different decisions. We were planning on spending T-giving and much of Christmas together, and looked forward to it as a time to get over things and reevaluate things -- so appealing, now. But now, her family has had to change Christmas tickets/plans and I certainly have little to no credibility with her family and least of all, her (since we've broken up and gotten back together before). Damn.

PPS: Interestingly enough, she had told me I could have sex with someone else, if it would ease my overthinking issues. I never wanted to because I wanted to be loyal to her and don't want to have to do that.

I'm sorry for what you're going through. I think in a sense though that this moment you are going through and this thread you have made have really made you see things in a clearer light.

Normally I'd say that this seems to me like one of those "right person, wrong time" cases. Like your GF said, 5 years down the line you could get together and there would be no problems. Maybe it is that.

But as time passes and I experience more in life, I have come to think that sometimes there isn't a right time, and you're not always ready and perfect and willing to go thorugh with something. If she's the right person and you really want her so much, you should try anway.

Who cares if plans have been ruined and horrible things said and done, it's still worth it if it's so important to you and also to her. There is always a way, if you are both willing and want it enough. I really believe that.

You have some issues - well I can relate. I have had more than one sexual partner, but only just. I used to wonder whether that was okay, whether I was suddenly in my 30's going to turn into a sex vixen and want to get around some, but I came to realise that if I'm happy with what I have then I can put those thoughts away in a small place that's so tiny and far that eventually it will disappear as my love and certainty keeps growing.

We're never happy with what we have, there's always something. But the truly happy people are those who not only are happy with what they have, every day they are still in wonder at how many great things are in their life and how grateful they are to have them.

I agree with abaya, it seems hard to me to have a best friend of the opposite sex if you're with someone who aside from being your lover, is also your best friend. I also think of my SO as my best friend. It's the best feeling in the world. That's also why I trust him implicitly. But some things are too much and obviously your girlfriend had a sixth sense about Sarah - which seems in some part confirmed by you, and also, seeing that your GF knows she is your first, the tension with regards Sarah, a close friend who seems sometimes a little more than that, is even greater.

I think you can work out your issues and stay with your GF, if she'll have you back. You may not win her back at once, but maybe she will take you back - don't give up on the first try. Just a tip - women love men who are in love with them and won't give up on the first try. Who make an effort to win them back. Expressing how you feel quite openly and without reserve, however painful for you, is sure to reach her heart, if she stil wants you. Your GF sounds like a really nice and understanding person. She even tried to make friends with Sarah - that's pretty generous when probably all she wants Sarah to do is go away.

The important thing is to always communicate with your GF, and if you do that and let her listen to your feelings and help when you need it, I'm sure that together you can work your problems out. I also think that if you have someone who loves you at your side, that will only help you grow stronger and erase those doubts away.

I hope things work out for the best.

Well, as some of you in the Ladies Lounge observed, Cheerycheeks situation is remarkably similar to mine. We are, in fact, the BF/GF in question.

So here we are again -- my GF and I are back together after a 3 or 4 day split. Sarah's (alias under this forum, Beth under the LL forum) integrity is called into question, my integrity is called into question, my loyalty is called into question, and my priorities are called into question. Fair enough; pehaps I have not put in the requisite amount of work to allay any of those concerns.

So Sarah's integrity is called into question. Who is this girl Sarah? Why hasn't she written my girlfriend back? That certainly seems suspicious -- if she was really a great friend of mine, she would have written back by now and save my GF and I the headache we have been going through. You know, I can't say for sure what Sarah's thoughts, motivations, and intentions are -- I'm not in her head. Honestly, however, can you really speak about your husband/wife and know what he/she is thinking? No, you don't. You base so much of it on trust. That's how it is with Sarah and I. I don't know if she's been trying to subvert my relationship, or has ulterior motives -- sure, I guess those are possibilities -- but I feel I know her well enough to trust her not to do that. If she did, if she was lying to me, our friendship would be beyond repair -- at least for a very, very long time. I hate being lied to or manipulated, and it would apply to Sarah too.
Do I think Sarah should have written back already? Sure I do. But I also know that she is still dealing with a BF/ex BF and working through that whole situation. I also know that she is busy and unhappy with work. Or that she says that she hardly talks to any friends at all -- of which I am a rare exception. Ok, does that seem suspicious? Shouldn't she have some time to write back to my GF -- she does go out, and she does talk to me. Yes, she should, and maybe it is supsicious. But it goes back to trust -- I have no reason not to trust Sarah yet, and really, I understand her pespective of how it could be hard to sit down and write a full, well-thought response to a person you don't know and who is already animous towards you; it can be a somewhat daunting task.
Do I believe Sarah is a good person? Yes. Will I defend that, even to my GF? Yes. And I think I have a right to, because she is someone I trust. I've asked my GF to trust me about Sarah, too, but that has been difficult for her to do (which I can understand as well).

Now, my integrity is called into question as well because of this situation. I have felt under attack and under scrutiny because of my relationship with Sarah. Maybe it is deserved, but I don't think so. I am a trustworthy individual, and feel that I deserve such trust. Other than the fact that my GF knows about my past friendship/feelings for Sarah, other than the fact that yes, I do sometimes wonder, I do not think I've done anything to undermine my deserving such trust. So Sarah and I freak danced; so I tried to talk to my GF and emphasize that it wasn't such a big deal, subsequently making it look like I was trying to hide something, even though I just intended to ease her fears about it. So Sarah and I got comments from people. So Sarah and I have joked and talked about how fate has always led us apart. I don't really care; I haven't acted on anything. It shouldn't matter. Do I want trust? Yes. Do I deserve trust? Yes. Have I given any reason to not trust me? No. And no matter what "female instinct" might say, it can be wrong...and maybe that just gets ladies burned in the end, for which I am very sorry, but it would be nice to be innocent until proven guilty. And maybe I am guilty in some peoples' eyes already, but in my eyes, I am not.

As for loyalty, I am and have been loyal to my GF. You could start with the superficial reasons like the fact that I have driven roughly 100 hours to see her this semester, just about every other weekend. I have hardly done anything in town, here, because I've been gone most weekends. I haven't done that for anyone else, including Sarah (oh, and my parents live by Sarah too, so I haven't even seen them that much). Someone in the LL said that I probably made out with Sarah, at least in the days that my GF and I were broken up. Sarah and I have never made out, we didn't do anything over the days I was single, and we didn't even try to set something up. If I was really that interested in messing around with her, I should have waited until after the weekend to get back with my girlfriend. In reality, I wasn't even sure I wanted to date Sarah -- I was hurt, I wanted my GF, I didn't want to rebound and hurt Sarah knowing I still wanted to be with my GF, and didn't even want another serious relationship anyway. Would we date if we were both single? Sure, we probably would. But does that mean anything? Sure, she could be considered a back-up. But she's a friend first; in fact, I've tried to help things between her and her ex. There may be questions and "what ifs" for a long time; fine, but I maintain that that doesn't mean anything unless you act on them.

As for priorities, both Sarah and I have always accepted our role as friends, always accepted that there are or might be other people that are our first priority (and I had already told Sarah that my GF is my first priority). We respect that, and we trust each other to respect that. If Sarah would have tried anything when I saw her two weekends ago, it would have constituted a serious breach of character, trust, and respect, and I would have responded accordingly; likewise, if I had done anything, I would have been extraordinarily disappointed in myself. However, Sarah and our friendship is also a priority to me. It is something important to me -- we've been friends for a long time, through many ups and downs and still support one another. It is something that makes me happy -- now that I have left all my undergrad friends and am at a new college, I have maybe one person here who I would actually consider a friend. So I turn to Sarah in addition to my GF; is that so terrible? And that's why I tried to set my foot down -- why should my closeness matter to my GF? I'm still her BF, I'm with her for a reason, I keep trying things with her, and I have tried to talk to her and make her see/realize/understand this. Should I change my friendship? According to many people, especially the ladies, I should make compromises here. But should I really? Others, including Mal and Shani, accept that men and women can have close friends of the opposite sex. So I finally decided I shouldn't have to compromise. Maybe a wrong decision; maybe misplaced priorities; it all depends on your point of view.

So there is a response to some of the things. Maybe I am just a good boy hurting my GF -- and no matter how hard I try not to, that's still the case. Do I deseve her? Maybe I don't -- I don't appear to understand her perspective nor do I make this compromises in her favor. Maybe the ladies are right, who am I to say? But you know, maybe you are wrong too. I've obviously thought about this a lot, talked about this a lot with my GF (she had already read my posts on TFP, and we had talked about that basically anyway), and try to be open and honest. So take it as you will; there are some additional, if long-winded thoughts.

Sim

PS: Why didn't I tell Sarah to write to my GF? Because I wanted it to come from her. Maybe that was too passive, but I felt that if I had to stick my nose in their business, it might decrease the sincerity. Well, I finally directly asked Sarah to write whatever she wanted -- I guess we'll see where this goes. Ultimately, I just wanted everything -- Sarah, the emails, whatever -- to be a non-issue. Maybe when she does respond (and she will respond honestly), it will help things along.

I'm glad to hear you guys are back together and trying to make things work again. All I can say is that I hope things work out.

I have responded a second time in the LL to your girlfriend's post, and in a sense, to your last here. Thank you for being so open and honest with the TFP, even though at the moment you sound a little defensive about the situation, remember that you asked us for your opinion - and we gave it to you. No-one means to meddle, just to help.

I do find it intriguing how different the response in the LL was to the one here - and I think that has upset you. My response in the LL was the same one as it was here. That there has to be compromise in this kind of situation, that seems so invisible but is actually a fragile one. You say you don't think you should have to...but I think you know that if you really want your relationship to work out, then someone will have to compromise, somewhere, somehow.

That Lil' tippler. And yes, I admit, I have been rather defensive -- because I don't think I've done anything wrong (to which someone could posit: then why would you need to feel defensive? But I digress) and also because of pressure outside of the TFP conversation(s). And yes, it was rather upsetting reading the LL posts because I feel I got ripped pretty well -- maybe I deserve it, however.

Your post a week ago helped me consider why I should even get back together. If I really cared, I would try. So maybe I was justified in breaking up with her, but I still didn't think it was fair to cut it off so soon, without giving (either of) us a chance to get on our feet again. So, I took the plunge, knowing full well that I have to face her, and her family, and increased doubts, etc. I thought it was worth it to try to make things better -- and I wished I could have gone back and changed things two Sundays ago.

And yes, there needs to be some compromise. I guess I stepped back too much hoping things would play out...but even if I hadn't yet prompted my friend to respond (at least until yesterday), I was contemplating ways for my GF and Sarah and I to hang out -- over T-giving, Christmas, whatever, where there would be an actual opportunity. So, I know, I haven't been compromising in talking to my friend or my stance on my friendship with her, but I have thought of ways to mesh things together and to include my GF, like she wanted. And maybe after your posts (and those of the other ladies), I will reevaluate how I feel about compromising my friendship itself.

I guess time will tell, as in all things. Hopefully T-giving and the next month or two will really help my GF and I out.

Sorry for getting a bit defensive. It is all rather stressful (in and esp out of TFP)...but that doesn't besmirch my appreciation for your comments (and yours Abaya, and everyone else), no matter how harsh, honest, and critical they are. Thank you.

Sim

I'm gonna be blunt because I'm tired of people feeding the drama.

Be fucking responsible, both of you.

simivin, accept that whether your behavior with Beth/Sarah seems reasonable to you, it seems over the line to your girlfriend. If you're interested in a relationship with your girlfriend, do what it takes to make it work. Accept that some aspects of your relationship with Beth/Sarah threaten Cheerycheeks, and just deal. Don't defend yourself, don't justify it, just accept that that's the way it is. You do X, she feels Y. Quit expecting Cheery to change her feelings, and just stop doing X. (Where X is, say, freakdancing with a girl who has intimate conversations with you and may or may not want to sleep with you.)

Now, the paradox:

Cheerycheeks, be responsible for your own feelings. You're looking for the cheating and the lying and the breach of trust, and *surprise* you find it everywhere. Simivin says there's nothing to the relationship with Beth/Sarah, and you don't believe him. Sure you have evidence: YOU'RE LOOKING FOR IT! You're not interested in what's true, you're interested in how things might end up with you hurt. That's not the way to have a relationship that works. These things have a funny way of turning out to be self-fulfilling prophecies: you're (rationally or irrationally) jealous, he feels hurt and *surprise* turns to the understanding long-term friend, which provides you more evidence, which makes you more hurt and jealous, which pisses him off, which drives him further away, and VOILA! You break up and gosh, if you weren't right all along. Only you don't see your role in the causal chain. You only see him betraying your trust.

If you're both 100% responsible, this will work. If you can't do that, either accept that this relationship is going to look exactly the way it does, and see if you can live with that.

Rock on, Lurkette. I agree 100%. That's what my GF and I talked about last week when we were getting back together -- we both need to grow up and be more mature. Now, whether we each can or not is yet to be seen.

Sim

PS: And I think your reconstruction of the scenario -- on both sides, including mine -- is true.