Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

- Tilted Sexuality (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-sexuality/)

- - Man Date (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-sexuality/87214-man-date.html)

I read this article and it gave me big laugh. It is about the stigma of two strait men doing things together on an intimate level. Just thought I would share here and get a discussion going. I do have one friend that I can have lunch with on occasion, but we do mix it up with hitting the bars or other manly events. Then there is the discussion why is this not a problem for women.

The link the article is
here

I find the whole idea of a "man date" utterly stupid.

Who in the hell decided that if you hang out with your best friend, it's suddenly a "man date"?

It'll make it much easier for me to hear those quotes from George W. Bush now. "I have a man date to..." :lol:

I have 5 words for you: in suh cure uh tee

Have to agree with Coppertop, here.

I just always referred to it as "guys night out".

We go golfing, hang out at a bar or even go to the movies.

Sometimes...there's even three of us, or more.

Shhhhh, don't let the Republicans know. :lol:

for those of you who don't like to click links

Quote:

Weird eyes for straight guys who just want to go out

By JENNIFER 8. LEE
THE NEW YORK TIMES

The delicate posturing began with the phone call.

The proposal was that two buddies back in New York City for a holiday break in December meet to visit the Museum of Modern Art after its major renovation.

"He explicitly said, 'I know this is kind of weird, but we should probably go,' " said Matthew Speiser, 25, recalling his conversation with John Putman, 28, a former classmate from Williams College.

The weirdness was apparent once they reached the museum, where they semi-avoided each other as they made their way through the galleries and eschewed any public displays of connoisseurship. "We definitely went out of our way to look at things separately," recalled Speiser, who has had art-history classes in his time.

"We shuffled. We probably both pretended to know less about the art than we did."

Eager to cut the tension following what they perceived to be a slightly unmanly excursion -- two guys looking at art together -- they headed directly to a bar. "We couldn't stop talking about the fact that it was ridiculous we had spent the whole day together one on one," said Speiser, who is straight, as is Putman. "We were purging ourselves of insecurity."

Anyone who finds a date with a potential romantic partner to be a minefield of unspoken rules should consider the man date, a rendezvous between two straight men that is even more socially perilous.

Simply defined, a man date is two heterosexual men socializing without the crutch of business or sports. It is two guys meeting for the kind of outing a straight man might reasonably arrange with a woman. Dining together across a table without the aid of a television is a man date; eating at a bar is not. Taking a walk in the park together is a man date; going for a jog is not. Attending the movie "Friday Night Lights" is a man date, but going to see the Jets play is definitely not.

"Sideways," the Oscar-winning film about two buddies touring the central California wine country on the eve of the wedding of one of them, is one long and boozy man date.

Although "man date" is a coinage invented for this article, appearing nowhere in the literature of male bonding (or of homosexual panic), the 30 to 40 straight men interviewed, from their 20s to their 50s, living in cities across the country, instantly recognized the peculiar ritual even if they had not consciously examined its dos and don'ts. Depending on the activity and on the two men involved, an undercurrent of homoeroticism that may be present determines what feels comfortable or not on a man date, as Speiser and Putman discovered in their squeamishness at the Modern.

Jim O'Donnell, a professor of business and economics at Huntington University in Indiana, who said his life had been changed by a male friend, urges men to get over their discomfort in socializing one on one because they have much to gain from the emotional support of male friendships. (Women understand this instinctively, which is why there is no female equivalent to the awkward man date; straight women have long met for dinner or a movie without a second thought.)

"A lot of quality time is lost as we fritter around with minor stuff like the Final Four scores," said O'Donnell, who was on the verge of divorce in the mid-1980s before a series of conversations over meals and walks with a friend 20 years his senior changed his thinking. "He was instrumental in turning me around in the vulnerability that he showed," said O'Donnell, who wrote about the friendship in a book, "Walking With Arthur." "I can remember times when he wanted to know why I was going to leave my wife. No guy had ever done that before."

While some men explicitly seek man dates, and others flatly reject them as pointless, most seem to view them as an unavoidable form of socializing in an age when friends can often catch up only by planning in advance. The ritual comes particularly into play for many men after college, as they adjust to a more structured, less spontaneous social life. "You see kids in college talking to each other, bull sessions," said Peter Nardi, a sociology professor at Pitzer College in Claremont, Calif., who edited a book called "Men's Friendships." "But the opportunities to get close to another man, to share and talk about their feelings, are not available after a certain age."

The concern about being perceived as gay is one of the major complications of socializing one on one, many straight men acknowledge. That is what Speiser, now a graduate student at the University of Virginia, recalled about another man date he set up at a highly praised Italian restaurant in a strip mall in Charlottesville. It seemed a comfortable choice to meet his roommate, Thomas Kim, a lawyer, but no sooner had they walked in than they were confronted by cello music, amber lights, white tablecloths and a wine list.

"It was funny," Speiser said. "We just knew we couldn't do it." Within minutes they were eating fried chicken at a "down and dirty" place down the road.

Kim, 28, who is now married, was flustered in part because he saw someone he knew at the Italian restaurant. "I was kind of worried that word might get out," he said. "This is weird, and now there is a witness maybe."

Dinner with a friend has not always been so fraught. Before women were considered men's equals, some gender historians say, men routinely confided in and sought advice from one another in ways they did not do with women, even their wives. Then, these scholars say, two things changed during the past century: an increased public awareness of homosexuality created a stigma around male intimacy, and at the same time women began encroaching on traditionally male spheres, causing men to become more defensive about notions of masculinity.

"If men become too close to other men, then they are always vulnerable to this accusation of, 'Oh, you must be gay,' " said Gregory Lehne, a medical psychologist at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine who has studied gender issues. At the same time, he added, "When you have women in the same world and seeking equality with men, then all of a sudden issues emerge in the need to maintain the male sex role."

And thus a simple meal turns into social Stratego. Some men avoid dinner altogether unless the friend is coming from out of town or has a specific problem that he wants advice about. Otherwise, grabbing beers at a bar will do just fine, thank you.

Other men say dinners may be all right, but never brunch, although a post-hangover meal taking place during brunch hours is OK. "The company at that point is purely secondary," explained Steven Carlson, 29, a public relations executive in Chicago.

Almost all men agree that beer and hard alcohol are acceptable man date beverages, but wine is risky. And sharing a bottle is out of the question. "If a guy wants to get a glass of wine, that's OK," said Rob Discher, 24, who moved to Washington from Dallas and has dinner regularly with his male roommate. "But there is something kind of odd about splitting a bottle of wine with a guy."

Other restaurant red flags include coat checks, busboys who ask, "Still or sparkling?" and candles, unless there is a power failure. All of those are fine, however, at a steakhouse. "Your one go-to is if you go and get some kind of meat product," explained James Halow, 28, who works for a leveraged buyout firm in San Francisco.

Cooking for a friend at home violates the man date comfort zone for almost everyone, with a possible exemption for grilling or deep-frying. "The grilling thing would take away the majority of the stigma because there is a masculine overtone to the grill," Discher said.

And man dates should always be Dutch treat, men agree. Armen Myers, 28, a lawyer in New York who is an unabashed man dater, remembers when he tried to pay for dinner for a friend. "I just plopped out the money and didn't even think about it," Myers said. "He said, 'What are you doing?' And I'm like: 'I was going to pay. What's the big deal?' And he said something like, 'Guys don't pay for me,' or 'No one pays for me.' There was a certain slight power issue."

When attending a movie together -- preferably with explosions or heavy special effects, never a romantic comedy -- guys prefer to put a nice big seat between each other.

Men who avoid man dates are often puzzled by the suggestion that they might like to spend time with male friends. "If you're buddies with another guy, there shouldn't be any work involved," Halow of San Francisco said. Which is why many men say that a successful man date requires a guy to demonstrate concern without ever letting on.

When man daters socialize with non-man daters, the activities always fall to the lowest common denominator. Myers, of New York, remembers how he would ask his roommate, Jonathan Freimann, out for dinner by himself. But Freimann would instinctively pre-empt, by asking other guys along.

"If I had known he wanted to spend one-on-one time, I would have," Freimann explained, adding that group dinners had simply seemed "more fun." (The two had dinner in San Diego last week.)

Jeffrey Toohig, 27, is a more reliable bet for Myers. They regularly have dinner together to discuss women, jobs and whatever else is on their minds. Toohig, who is looking for a job helping underdeveloped countries, divides his male friends into two groups: "good friends who I go out one on one with, and guys I go out with and we have beers and wings." And, he pointed out, dinner with Myers doesn't make his girlfriend jealous, the way dinners with his female friends do.

All men, however, agree that one rule of guy-meets-guy time is inviolable: If a woman enters the picture, a man can drop his buddies, last minute, no questions asked.

Jeez, I never knew I was supposed to be uncomfortable hanging out with the guys (or guy, as the case may be).

WTF?

it doesn't make me uncomfortable, if someone is ignorant enough to assume something, that's their own fault. I don't make amends for stupidity like this.

I can see if, say, two guys were making out that I'd assume they were on a date... but it's good to know that homophobia has reached the level where guys are not only not allowed to glancingly touch each other, but now we're not allowed to go to the same places as other guys with the intention of having fun.

Next time my mom calls and asks what I've been up to: man dating.

Simply defined, a man date is two heterosexual men socializing without the crutch of business or sports. It is two guys meeting for the kind of outing a straight man might reasonably arrange with a woman. Dining together across a table without the aid of a television is a man date; eating at a bar is not. Taking a walk in the park together is a man date; going for a jog is not. Attending the movie "Friday Night Lights" is a man date, but going to see the Jets play is definitely not.

The article assums that males are insecure when they hang out together when sports or a bar is not involved. I hang out with my friends because I want to. I have had dinner with a male friend in a place without a bar and without a TV on the wall. Did we talk about business or sports? I don't remember. Since he was my friend and has been for quite a long time, we talked about a wide range of things. I can't vouch for anyone else but I have never needed a "crutch" when socializing with my friends. If they are truly my friends, I have no reason to feel insecure.

GoT, I don't know if you caught that but bars and golfing are out of the question.

But this article is hilarious.

I remember this commercial for shoes, I think adidas, and at a gym a bunch of guys are checking out another guys new shoes he bought, and one guy says "oh those are cute!", and immediately all the other guys turn their heads and stare at him, and he instantly freezes up. Then later on he calls up his girlfriend on his cellphone and tells his girlfriend, loudly so everybody in the gym can hear, "yeah? hey, me and the guys are going out tonight, for beer and red meat, yeah." And then his girlfriend on the other end immediately says, affectionately "you said cute again in front of a bunch of guys again didn't you??"
:lol:

But yeah, I eat food one on one at shabby restaurants with my friends and everything is great, and the food is more than just edible... but a classy restaurant? Sharing wine?

You know what else I've noticed? I come from Iran, and well, suffice to say feminism never really was a movement in that region, and in my math class I sit beside my friend who is from Turkey. Now he's newer to Canada and I've been here for over half of my life, he's very friendly with me like we would be back in our home countries, but it's extremely awkward for me when he is that friendly to me because everybody else notices and thinks it's quasi-homosexual. Of course (I hope!) they realize that it's a cultural difference that's the cause of this, but it's still very awkward, and sometimes I have to make sure there's something to reassert myself as straight for everybody else. Now the only reason I mentioned feminism (or more accurately the belief that both sexes are equal) is because the article mentions...

Quote:

Before women were considered men's equals, some gender historians say, men routinely confided in and sought advice from one another in ways they did not do with women, even their wives.

So I thought that was neat that there is some proof of that, at least for me.

Good article!

I benefit from the fear of man-dating!

My friend James takes me out for dinner and an opera every once in a while, as his guy friends are a bit too put off by the idea of going on a man-date! :D

That's absolutely ridiculous.

I go to lunch with male friends allt he time. Go out for a coffee, and just talk about things.

Then again, a number of people have labelled me gay before, so what am I to say?

My thoughts? If you want to go out for dinner with a friend, do it. If you want to see a movie, see it. Who cares that you're only with one other person of the same gender? Who cares of other people are so insecure that they can't comprehend two men wanting to discuss books, or art, or relationships.

I mandate the man-date mundane.

I think this woman found people to interview that supported her pre-determined position. Sounds to me like she is trying to write an episode for Sex in the City. I quit halfway through the article, after realizing that Samantha was not, indeed, going to turn the man-date into a threesome. Yawn.

I had two roommates that wanted to go to TGI Friday's. The problem: they needed another guy (me) to go with them so they wouldn't look gay. I didn't want to go for money reasons, and they decided that they weren't going to go. I called them tools.

Incidentally, they are both in the national guard.

i'm slightly disqualified from this discussion, but i go out with my straight guy friends for lunch or dinner, etc...all the time. i don't see folks unless i make an effort, and that includes the boys.

frankly...i don't see what the fuss is about.

Interesting. If you see two people out socializing, when would you assume they were on a date? Most of the time, if it's a male-female couple, most people would assume it is a date. Most of the time, unless they do something to indicate otherwise, if it's two women, most people would assume it isn't. Grace and I get hit on all the time when we're out together, nobody ever assumes we're a couple unless we do something blatantly obvious. Two men? I dunno, I think I'd assume it was a Fred and Barney thing, best friends hanging out. Maybe society is more wary of two guys socializing than two women.

It's an interesting comparison. I don't know what the point there was that I was trying to make. It's late.

What's wrong with hangin out with guys? what if you don't know any girls well enough?

More media bullshit social norms. This reminds me of the whole "metrosexual" crap last year. The media makes up a social term and we all start talking about it. What a waste of time.

I go out all the time with my buddies; dinners, movies, and so on. Just cause once in a while we wind up blowing each other in the men's room does that make us gay?

Yeah, unless the two guys do something overt to indicate they're dating, then I would just assume they were two guys hanging out. If it was a nice restaurant I might think it was a business thing.
At the movies, it probably depends on the movie...I mean, if it's, like, a Walk in the Clouds, I might think couple, but Die Hard 80, probably two buddies.
Cha, I wish we (as a society) weren't so concerned with what total strangers thought of us...*le sigh*

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_marq

:lol: Let me guess. You're a metrosexual too! ;)

I think this whole thing is stupid, but 3 people will read it and take it to heart, and we will never hear of it again.

I agree with you, I don't date any of my friends, but some times you just need a BJ done and there is nothing better than having one done instead of masturbating. I think it tastes great!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

I have 5 words for you: in suh cure uh tee

Whole-heartedly seconded.

The only thing that would make one insecure of course is that they are at an art museum, which is not a 'man' place unless you have been dragged their by your gf/wife.

The whole concept is innane. If I'm walking around with a friend of mine and someone thinks we are gay, I couldn't give a crap.

I might be going out to meet a male friend at a bday party tonight, I sure hope no one thinks I'm gay since my wife isn't going :rolleyes:

Even odder, I didn't know this was an 'issue'. I've never heard it brought up before, ever.

Quote:

I go out all the time with my buddies; dinners, movies, and so on. Just cause once in a while we wind up blowing each other in the men's room does that make us gay?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!! Funniest thing I've read all day. Thank you, themarq, that was awesome. If I were a man, I'd love to hang out with you and give you an ol' fashioned bathroom BJ. :lol:

I go on these so called "man dates" all the time and I'm just turning 20. This article is kind of stupid but i know that some guys just won't do the one on one.

Sheeeeeesh. So two guys go to the flea market and it's a man-date??
I thought it was bad 10 years ago when the phrase 'play date'(for getting kids together to play) came about ..... :rolleyes:
No wonder the spouse and his friends don't go out anymore....too many accusations of being on a date... :lol: :lol:

my roommate and i are great friends. i've known him for almost 10 years now, since my sophomore year in high school.

if we're hungry, we go out and we eat. we both are comfortable, so it's usually somewhere fairly nice, not just burger king- just as an example. we go and do lots of things. i can't imagine where anyone would get it in their head to equate two friends hanging out and doing stuff to "dating". Dating, by it's nature and purpose, is for people who don't really know each other, to build a relationship- or at least a better bond- but always in a relationship capacity (even if it's just to be fuck buddies). Hanging out with a friend isn't even anywhere near the same purpose, the same activity, or anything. It's just odd that some people's homophobia comes out in suggesting that straight men hanging out should be called "man-dating".

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

You live together, you're obivously both closet homos. (That was heavy sarcasm for those who can't percieve such forms of humore over the Internet.)

Good thing Ms. Lee (Why is her middle initial 8?) wrote this article, otherwise I wouldn' thave known that I was supposed to feel insecure about it. I always thought it was male bonding (not male bondage, that probably is a sign that you're gay.)

i'm not a guy, but i can say that i have seen this sort of behavior in males i know. typically, they don't go out in pairs, always in groups. there are exceptions to that of course, but the norm is the group thing.

but i must say--i found this part particularly funny

Quote:

When attending a movie together -- preferably with explosions or heavy special effects, never a romantic comedy -- guys prefer to put a nice big seat between each other

my bf and i have a male friend (hetero) we go to the movies with quite often. my bf always sits in the seat right next to me. if i'm in the middle, our friend sits in the seat right next to me on the other side. if i am on the end, there is always a seat between the two of them. if it were just about having room to stretch out (what i was told when i commented on it) then why is it when i'm in the middle, the need for the extra seat isn't there?

as for assuming two guys i see in public are a couple...nope. then again, i don't assume a male and female together are a couple either. enough times hearing what a cute couple you make with your "bf" who just happens to be your brother *gags* cures you of that assumption pretty quick lol

This is just a dumb, ignorant article...really I don't see how anyone can look at this as having a shred of credibility.

Life is really nothing like this.

This is funny. My brother has going out with several different guys to bars, restaurants, movies, and other events. Granted he's a muscular guy and tall so not effeminant in any way. He's also expressed some interest in guys too. I just never thought anything odd about him going to the movie "George of the Jungle" with his buddy. He never went to thoroughly girly movies for sure. For restaurant choices he choice Applebees or one of the truck stops in town. For other events - it was country concerts or such things. Not a symphony, ballet, or art museum.

this is bull...i've been out singally with my guy friends to "less than manly" venues...art museums dining and whatnot....this is crappus