Asian female/White male relationships.
 

This topic came up in the inter-racial relationships thread and I, like some others, felt that it deserved a thread of its own.

So here's a quick recap. My dad is white and my mother is 3rd generation japanese american. I personally have only dated white females because when growing there wasn't much of an asian population where I lived. However once I moved away to college (the UW) I was exposed to much more diversity. Lately, I have found myself noticing the asian females more than the white ones, and in all likeyhood the next girl I date will be asian.

However one other thing caught my attention while in college: the disproportionate amount of asian female/white male relationships. I mentioned this in the other thread, but it seems to me while I'm walking around campus for every asian/asian couple I see, I see about 6 asian female/white male pairings. All the asian girls I know personally that date are dating white males.

I asked these girls why they don't date asian males and the answers go something like this:

-"It's not the race of the person that I'm attracted to, it's their personality."

-"I'm just not into asian guys."

Those are the typical responses that I hear from them, and the interesting thing is whenever this topic comes up they get very aggitated and defensive.

Of course it's impossible to determine the single causal factor which leads many asian females to date white males, but I have my theory (which I have read in some in some other places as well), which goes something like this:

In our western society white males hold the most power. All of the US presidents have been white males and generally speaking white males are portrayed in the media as being masculine and assertive. On the other end of the spectrum, of course there have been no asian american presidents and masculine asian american males in the media are very hard to find (sorry, kung-fu stars do not count). So asian american females are raised in a society which depicts white males as being masculine and able to reach the top of the social hierarchy, whereas asian american males are rarely depicted in this masculine manner. So, and yes this oozes of social darwinism, the asian females are subconciously attracted to the white males because they think that their offspring will have a better chance of climbing to the top of society if the offspring look more white than asian. Once again, I do not believe most asian females make cognitive decisions regarding choosing white males over asian males, but rather they have been conditioned all their lives to see the white males as the best mates and providers for their children.

So that answers one half of the asian female/white male question, but the other half remains, why are white males attracted to asian females to such a degree? Well, once again this is my own theory and is is un-testable. Much like asian females are brought up to believe white males have certain characteristics by our society, our society also attaches certain characteristics to asian females. These traits for example are generally seen as more feminine than the normal (white) females. Such as the asian female is more submissive, quiet, and studious than a non-asian female. Because they physically look different and are thought to behave different, one will often hear or read the word "exotic" attached to descriptions of asian females. Thus, white males are subconciously attracted this "exotic" image of the passive asian female which is more exciting than the "normal" female.

So that is my own thoery. There are a few things I want to stress. Firstly, the role that stereotypes play in these relationships. Of course not every white male is an assertive business man capable of being a CEO and of course not every asian girl is passive and good at math. However these are the stereotypes that pervade each these types of people. I also want to emphasize how these processes occur subconciously in both the white male and asian female. Asian females/white males don't have cognitive thoughts such as "I date her because she's asian" or "I date him because I'm white." But the sociological sterotypes do play a role in the initial attraction and who we seek out as mates.

Lastly I just want to say that I am in no way opposed to asian female/white male relationships. After all, I'm the product of one and an excellent example of the result. I have stated my own theory and everyone else is free to hack it up to pieces or add their own thoughts to it. :)

hmmm... filipino heritage

Okay, my sister married a white male. I married a white female.

Our marriages are interacial and interfaith.

My BIL is I don't know where from... and my wife is of a Russian Background.

My best friend white, is married to a 1st gereration USB born Chinese woman.

For all of us, it's who we got along with... each of us dated other people from different ethnicities and religions. These are who we're paired up with for marriage.

I'm the only one of the whole group who dated strictly white girls. I had dated one filipina ONCE. One date. That's it. I never dated another. In fact from the time that we were both young we already addressed the issue to our parents that neither of us were going to marry filipino.

That said, I'm going to leave you with the notion that my parents raised us to be white. They gave us all the same tools for assimilating into the American culture so that even when people came over there wasn't "weird" food to eat and the like.

interesting theory, and I think in some cases it holds water... but it definitely can't be universally applied.

The main assumption of your hypothesis is that both parties are raised in american culture. Most of the stereotypes that you've mentioned regard asian women who are raised in an asian culture, or the perception of such women.

Some of the least quiet, modest and submissive women I know are US born asians. Some of the most irresponsible men I know are white.

I am dating a 100% japanese woman, who was raised in japan and has only been here since february. The submissiveness you mentioned is probably the least desirable trait evident from her upbringing. I encourage her to be assertive; I hate it when I hear "whatever you'd like" when I ask for an opinion.

She is very smart and enjoys learning, but that's more a product of the japanese school system, that teaches the kids to work hard; whereas the american school system alienates children from learning and is sadly more of a hit-or-miss system.

basically, I think that stereotypes and attitudes towards people of other ethnic backgrounds are just a meme that's absorbed from family and peers. It doesn't matter what culture you come from, we all have preconcieved notions about people who are not like us, until we actually get to know them and the nuances of individuals within that group (which is where a lot of those interracial/intercultural relationships arise). Being attracted to a person's physical traits is a matter of preference, but seeking them out for those traits is just as single-minded as avoiding that person for the same reason.

My first serious gf (read: live-in sexual gf) was Korean. I was extremely shy back then with females (I was a virgin) and she basically relaxed me enough to make a move and we eventually hooked up. She was my dad's roommate so we were technically living together already. After we were a couple she quickly took a very submissive role in our relationship, occasionally having a fight if I said something insensitive (I was 18 and a bit immature then) but overall she was very a classic Asian woman. She refused to let me do my laundry, she would cook tho she sucked at it (so did I) and was sexually available most every time I wanted to.

What ended up breaking us up was her lack of intellect. Being of the old world beliefs she needed a man to guide her and tell her what to do and didn't think for herself, even in simple matters. I have to say the caretaking aspect was somewhat attractive later on after having a couple white gfs. I'm not saying I want a slave or something but I liked being taken care of in a relationship...something that has lacked from most of my white/white relationships after the initial "selling" period. I think a lot of white men either have an Asian fetish, which was said in the other thread as well, or just like the attitude of many Asian women that persists to this day. Call it patriarchical or sexist, but I prefer a submissive (but intelligent) Asian woman over most white girls I've been with. I think I may date an Asian woman again if my current relationship doesn't work out.

Speak for yourself CJ.

I'm Asian. I have read your statement regarding the reasons why many asian females prefer white males. If this was the case, I would probably think that the 2 Billion population of people in China would be much lesser than Western society. Hehehe. =)

In any case, don't look for a reason in this matter. Each case varies. You were speaking of the disproportions in your University, but you noted that you found or know 6 asian/white pairings. However, in my University system, I see lots of asian/asian pairings. Most of the female and male asians also lives in the same residential halls as well.

I'm not saying that your reasons is invalid, but, it seems to me that speaking from a general stand point is the same thing as stereotyping.

I'm asian and I'm not a big fan of asian pop culture, so I typically don't hang around the asian cliques. Personally I don't really care about the race of the person I date. If she's attractive, why care about such petty things? I find that the majority of asian/asian pairing are from those asian cliques. So people date those who they hang out with and like, don't really see a problem with that. Personally, I don't see why you need to bring up race in a relationship and I can see why they get defensive. Asking about why they chose another race is implying that it may be wrong or something. just my two worthless cents.

Us white guys have bigger peckers?

just adding some levity! hehhehe

Phil

Phil, do you mean black guys? Hehehe. =)

well i have already stated my reasons as to why i myself wouldn't date asian guys in the other thread. not only am i less attracted to them physically, but their attitudes and culture are something i couldn't ever relate with. as for the social darwinism bit, sure, i believe my offspring would probably look better in an interracial pairing. some of the most attractive people come from mixed parents :P but as for best providers, i look for things that count.. not the color of skin. i know a lot of white men that wouldn't be able to raise a child at all. i dated one. at least he had the responsibility to admit it.

here's a theory: asian men tend to be short. short guys have a harder time with women generally.

similarly, asian woman (like all women) are generally attracted to taller men. if tall white, tall black and short asian men are available, they will generally pick tall white. (the reason they won't pick tall black is because of either their own prejudice or their family's. this is a GROSS stereotype, however.)

So if you feel you're getting short-changed, consider that it may be just because you're too short, not because you're too asian.

anti-fishstick: do you find that even asian men who were born and raised in the US have these attitudes and culture that you can't relate with?

as for being not physically attracted, hey, what can you do. some people like blondes, some people like brunettes. not much you can do about that.

yes i still feel alienated towards US born asian men. i think the main thing is just asian *groups* and subcultures that i can't relate to. these are everywhere and can be US born asians, asian born asians, or a mix of both. i myself was born in the philippines but moved here when i was 3. unlike most asians however, i was put into a little small agricultural town in OREGON so i had no sense of asian culture at all and lived my life individualistically a lot of the times (i was also an only child). i tried really hard to fit in asian culture during middle school by means of the internet. and i felt very alienated then because aside from not fitting in to their music, their clothing style, their gossip, the way they talked, etc. i also didn't even really KNOW them. they weren't really my friends.. i began to resent my own heritage and culture because of this and feeling more and more alienated to something i SHOULD belong to, but didn't feel i did at all. it was hard for me and i felt guilty as well for not liking my "own people".

to this day, i still can't relate, but i am more forgiving of myself. i was just raised differently and out of context. i have my own ideas and mindsets that have nothing to do with the asian subculture. i don't think i really belong to any sort of subculture really..

i kind of know what you're talking about anti-fishstick. it's hard to make friends based on superficial characteristics such as skin type. that's why all those celebrity relationships that are based only on beauty and fame end in flames. the other philipino americans you met had parents with similar parenting styles in common, and it sounds like all you had in common with them was what you looked like.

and i'm sorry to hear it caused you to feel guilt--us people who don't belong in any subculture can relate. as nice as it is to be an individual, most everyone craves to belong in a group at some point in their lives. hope you enjoy those square dances at the 4H club :)

I've dated one girl that was asian (korean) and this was pretty much the reason she gave me. She said she just wasn't attracted to asian guys, but she also said that most asian men are pretty small in that area.

I agree that there is no general answer for this. Yeah, the girl I dated gave me this reason, but that's just her. I'm sure every reason is different.

I have no idea where you got this information from. I'm 6' 2" tall, and Asian.

Anyway, anti-fishsticks, I was raised here in the US of A at the age of 2. I can't relate to my culture or whatever it is that you're calling it nowadays, however, what I can do is not to alienate myself from them but to teach them and emerse the so called " my people" to other ways of life. This not only get them to understand you, but have respectful attitudes towards yourself that you're trying to make a difference.

Don't feel so Alienated because you can't associate yourself with them. Learn their ways, and let them learn yours. It's simple as that. I got a nice quote for ya.

" There are 9 billion people in the world. There are 9 billion ways of living. There are 9 billion ways of justice, right and wrong. There are 9 billion people talking....(it goes on) How do we live together? "

who said that console?

yeah i see what you mean.
i have learned their ways but feel like an anthropologist observing another culture, in a way. i could try to teach them a little more about myself.

Oh comeon! didnt you see when Bruce Lee kicked Chuck Norris' ass? Sorry had to do it.

About the why non-asian(not just white) guys like asian women, i believe that it is totally due to the exotic factor. And the loyalty of Asians is very strong. I personally really like asian women for the exotic reason but i couldnt see myself with an asian girl for the rest of my life. Seems more of like a curiosity sort of thing. My girlfriend is Spanish(not Mexican Spanish) like me and I could see myself with her forever.

Given that I'm not an Asian man I don't have any first-hand perspective in the issue being discussed. However, even though I have no beef against interracial relationships I guess I would be kind of disturbed if I was an Asian man and noticed a greater prevalence of mixed Asian/white (f/m) couples---especially if I felt Asian women were excluding me from my dating pool.

I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with interracial and/or intercultural dating, but I doubt any man would think it cool if women of their own ethnic group excluded them from their dating pool and only went for white men though.

I hope this didn't come out as racist or anything....

No. It's not. I understand your point of view as well.

I dated lots of Asian women, white women (Caucasion). Doesn't matter to me.

no don--it didn't come across as racist. one of my friends was trying to set me up with a korean girl. my friend described me to this girl, saying i was this and that, and then she noted I was korean, and a look of disgust apparently came across her face. i know several people like this. but i say to each their own. i'm not attracted to people who have such biases anyways.

consolemaster: i am asian too, and i'm 5'6". For the record, my last relationship was with a caucasian woman, but that doesn't negate the validity of ChrisJericho's (the original poster's) concern, any more than your height negates the fact that asians tend to be shorter than caucasians. I did a quick lookup on the net:

http://www.tallpages.com/uk/index.php?pag=ukstatist.php

as of 1996, the average height of adult (18-30) japanese males is about 10 cm less than that of american males. ergo, asian men tend to be shorter than caucasian men.

RlS, Statistics can be misleading when given the population density of 2 billion Chinese men and 1000 asian men.

1,000/2,000,000,000 is like almost 0.000005 or 0.0005 % of Asia population. I find that very amusing. But, if given a city-wide area anaylsis of the statistics, it would be more legit because of Dwarnism theory of closed variation. The gene pool will be limited because of the closed state of the variation in the popluation. This reasoning is a part of the reasons within reasons.

"The truth is does not reveal the truth. Just like when you place a bird on a paper, and a cage on another paper. How would you get the bird in the paper without drawing a bird in the cage? Simple, place the bird behind the cage drawing, and rotate it rapidly between two strings. You'll get the bird in the cage. "

It seemss that stats applies well if you reach a critical number such as flipping a coin and expected to recieve 1/2 chance of heads or tails. If you do this a couple of times if may be only 0.03% of reaching that, however, if you do it for a long length of flippings it may approach the more theoretical of 0.5. One of the reasons statistics in population may have a dramatic error. It's good for marketing schemes though.

Note: In case you want to know where I get the 1,000 from. It's from the link that you given me.

Nonetheless, it's hard to give a number to humans. We don't know how to use it. LOL.

If you are not interested in how society functions, that is your personal preference. I, however am interested in trying to get a better understanding of why these asian female/white male are so prevalent.

Also, it's not that I know of 6 of these pairings. While on campus for every asian/asian couple I see, I see around 6 asian female/white male combinations. I am not exagerating. I also know three asian women who are all dating white males. This could definitely vary by location. Things could be much different where you live. I am just making observations regarding my own daily enviroment.

Good. Glad you clearify some of your points. Environmental factors are important it seems from your anaylsis.

As far as the way a society functions. I think someone needs to fix human problems first before we dissect how it functions or else we'll never know. LOL. Just like the middle east. However, humans aren't machines to dissect unless their dead, right? So, how do we understand a society if they are consist of humans?

Anyway. It sounds like the area you live in is just the part of whole. Your explanation is best suited to describe your living radius. It's hard to monitor the social aspects of the entire US community by using inference from one town or area.

I've had a pretty long relationship with a Korean girl just a year ago. She was born and raised in America, but is 1st generation here so her family isnt fully Americanized.

The reason she said she was attracted to me was my confidence. This is no lie, I'm the type of guy who will talk to any girl, confidence is abundant with me. According to her, though, Asian men are more subtle. In their culture most matches are not arranged, but family DO play a very important part in playing match-up. So lots of Asian guys just dont approach women as openly as I guess Whites do.

Gross overestimation? possibly. As I said thats what she told me. I do see a lot of truth in it though, every woman everywhere is attracted to confidence. Our society the man has to be dripping with it to make the first approach, get her number, ask/figure out the first date, and carry the relationship through the first couple weeks.... the entire time risking failure at every step. If you are used to parents setting you up you dont have to go through this, maybe they just never got experience doing things for themselves.

It occurs to me that this is really hard to simplify because there are differences between cultures throughout Asia. Korea is different than Japan which is also different from Cambodia, the Philippines, etc etc etc.

I'm still not sure what to think at the moment. I know why Janet is with me. I know why some others have gotten into relationships of this dynamic. Here at the Univerisity of Oregon I see many more Asian/Asian couples than anything else. I don't know what to say. I find it a little hard to believe that it is simply appearance that is an issue here - perhaps there are some cultural things going on. What are the gender relations like between Asian cultures within their own country? Power structure? What happens when people from those cultures enter the American system?

I feel like we are barely scratching the surface here.

i hate to change topics so much, but...

console--did you notice the confidence interval on that webpage? he's got enough data in there to make it obvious that 10 cm is a statistically significant difference. have you taken a statistics course ever?

anyways, why is it that cars designed for sale in japan are designed for a smaller human body than those in the US? why is it when I go to Korea all the urinals are set a few inches lower (more comfortable for me)? when in a hollywood movie they show actor X walking down the crowded streets of Tokyo, why is he always that much taller than everybody else on the street? why is it that, if you have a group of asians together in a room, you can tell without even looking at textbooks that asians are smaller? it should have been obvious without having to look at any numbers that asians are smaller. if you want me to pull up more numbers i'm sure i can find more.

sorry for the digression. asian men do get shafted when it comes to girls, but I think it has in large part to do with the height thing. since you're 6'2", do you have a problem attracting women? my guess is unless you're butt ugly or dress badly, a number of women are attracted to you instantly when you go to clubs.

btw, i agree with chris that it's not just some fluke from whatever neck of the woods he's from that asian women tend to date a disproportionate number of caucasian men. i'd say 3/4 of the asian women i know who are dating are not dating asian men. the asian men i know are mostly lonely.

Sure. If you can prove it. I can believe it. And, since your not Asian. It's hard for you too see how Asian works, right? Hehehe. =)

BTW. I taken Calculus and Statistics classes, a requirement for engineering. His report was confident, but not enough data to work with to give a thorough anaylsis of the general diversity. And, the reason why those areas are like that was from a compiled data long ago. www.sirc.org would probably lists stuff about these with much more thorough investigations.

Not all Asian are short. That's a stereotype similar to the one that says Asians are good in math. I mean get real people.

I think what bermuda mentioned earlier is a good point, whether or not the asian women in question were raised here or overseas. At my university at least, the majority of the asian population is not american-born. It seems to me that in a new environment, people would naturally gravitate towards trying new things. Who wants to vacation in Japan, Hawaii, France, etc.. and only eat pizza and hamburgers? ^^ College is all about trying new things and exploring anyway, I doubt any preference to white over asian is intended as a prejudice.
Alternately, what is the ratio of asian to white on the campus? If the campus is 80% white, wouldn't it make sense that 4 out of 5 asian women were dating white men? It seems more prejudicial to selectively date within your own race rather deciding on the individual personality of each person.
anyway, interesting topic to think about, just my musings..

Um, nowhere was it stated that "all asians are short". It was stated that, on average, asian males are about 10 cm shorter than white males.

Explain. I cannot make any sense of this sentance.

I've dated an asian (chinese) girl in the past, so I suppose add me to those statistics!

I think its just that some ppl are more attracted to ppl that are a different color or have different colored eyes any thing thats different, this is what my mom said to me, when she met my asian boyfriend.
Filipino's are cute too.
I have blonde hair blue eyes, so the guy's I was always into were
blonde and had blue eyes like me.
until I saw an asian for the first time I was weirdly attracted to him. I dated him, I liked him, so who know's, he does reminde me of my dad in many ways, like the way he breaths, His growing tummy ect.
I have also heard that, in a study someone did that people are also attracted to ppl that kinda look like themself's ,facial structure,Jaw bone.
They took a pic of the person, made it not look like them a little, and then added it into a big list off ppl they thought looked good to them, or what ever and all of the ppl picked them self out along with the other ppl they liked.

I think there is a historical aspect to this relationship dynamic, going back to World War II and the U.S. victory over Japan, on through the Korean and Vietnam wars. The vast majority of our service members sent over there were white and male, and on a physical level, we were sending our strongest and fittest men to places like the Phillipines, and Korea. So what you have is (in some places) 3 generations worth of women in these countries seeing these American men as more "manly" (deservedly or not) along with 3 generations of servicemen who have had relationships with Asian women. So my thinking is that it is a real, subconcious attraction, with historical causes.

I have 2 good friends who are Japanese. The girl only likes American guys. The guy is married to an American girl who is part japanese, part white and part native amerian (she is one of the most beautiful women I know- that's a really good mix!). But she is still American. These 2 people I think just like everything American and that includes the people. The guy lives here and has for many years, the girl was here for school but is back in Japan now. But she is trying desperately to get back and even while in Japan she only dates American men.

I think a lot of people who are coming here from other countries just like America and want the whole American dream which includes an American spouse. Typical American's are still portrayed as white, even though that is obviously not all there is to choose from here.

So I wonder if the Asian women you see with white guys were raised here? Or are they like my Japanese friends and came to America for school and just love everything American, including the people?

I guess I'm one of these caucasian guys who prefers asian women. I don't know why, but it seems like I get along better with asians than with anybody else (with males too). Another reason why I like them is because of their looks. They just have the cutest eyes ever! Also, the fact that they are shorter might have something to do with my interest in asian girls. I really wouldn't want to date a girl taller or bigger than me, asians usually are petite.

My ex was raised in Hong-Kong and my current gf (half chinese/vietnamese) was raised here in Canada. I have to say that neither of them were submissive. Actually, I'm a little surprised that people still believe in that stereotype..

On average? Hmmm.....Tell me something. If you are given 1000 students in one given location. We have 225 outlier grades, this may cause the average to be inconsistent. Also it depends on the person doing the data plotting if that person become an affinity to short people or not, eventhough he says random, people are people. Statistics is a powerful tool for those not seeing how it works. It may damage a person morality. Statistics is useful only if you are given the total of a particular race. You can't judge by a couple of people. Genetic variations varies on many factors. Radiation, dietary, environment. A group of Asian living in a particular area is taller than another group of Asian living in another area. How's that? Sounds good? If he would've have not only done a consensus in Japan, he would've gained more followers.

I tell ya. Statistics is only okay for money and finances, but surveys, and such. It's not a very efficient tool for the latter because you cannot measure a human choice, can you?

First of all, I am asian (Korean). But why did you bring that up? What does me being asian have to do with anything?

Secondly, I listed a few sites below, which I found by searching for "ergonomics anthropometry nationality". Is it bigotted of designers to create their products assuming that people in different countries are of different heights? Saying that most asians are generally short may be a stereotype, but it's a true stereotype. And it should have been clear just walking down the street--as clear as it is that men are generally taller than women. Don't be so quick to be offended by generalizations--generalizing is a human trait that is useful for engineers and scientists as well.

http://www.dh.aist.go.jp/research/an...nthropdat.html

http://vr.iao.fhg.de/papers/ERGONAUT_egve00.pdf

http://www.system-concepts.com/ETC/nationality.html

http://www.cs.wright.edu/~jgalli/hfe306/physwrk.ppt

http://www-ieem.ust.hk/dfaculty/ravi/papers/paper5.pdf

http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/DEA325...hrodesign.html

According to your findings, you mean Asian = Japanese?

Speak for yourself man. Now I know you're Asian, but how can you speak of everybody when you only use only a small consensus based on your perception? Explain to me why I'm not a typical ' asian height '? Maybe I'm not Asian? Or rather, explain to me why I know many Viets, Cambo, and Laos with heights above 6' in my University campus? Hmm...Looks like you're stereotyping your ' own asian groups ' than. Don't take my group with you.

This is so stupid... unless you have data to prove that Asians aren't, on average, shorter than people of European descent, then I don't see why this continues.

In my experience, I've noticed that I'm taller than most Asian men that I meet. If you really want to make a point, back it up with evidence. Otherwise this is going to keep on going to no point.

And what does it matter?

I've asked questions try to get at the heart of why people Asian women with white American men. Why don't we focus on that issue? Why is this happening? Or does it really? What are the socio-political factors? What is happening culturally here? Why?

Leave the minutia alone, unless you can support what you're saying with evidence.

*grumbles*

I hate when the real issue gets lost like this.

Okay. Pay my poverish un-supported country to do the consensus. Tell me. Who can do this? I can, only if I have the money? I don't think anybody here are aware of the political corruption in these countries, or do they? Hmmm....Let me see. Speak for the Japanese with those statistics if it uses them as their consensus.

As far as I know, the evidence from the links are referral to Japanese data. Please use it only for that area, don't take my so called ' group ' with you. Okay?

console master: are you offended when people say that men are generally taller than women? are you offended that Secret sells a deodorant that is pH balanced for women? are you offended that sunscreen is generally not marketed for black people? if so, you're in for a hard, humorless life. At work, we use EPA estimates for average adult body weights. Men are assumed to be 70 kg, women are assumed to be 60 kg. Does that offend you too? Should we assume just one average of 65 kg and run all the risk assessment scenarios that way?

the data i linked is for japan and hong kong. I found no data for southeast asian countries, though I have no reason to believe that, with the exception of random subgroup X, that the average heights should be any taller than those of hong-kong-- height has increased with standard of living, and the standards of living in SE asian countries are considerably below that of japan and korea (please don't ask me to prove that too with numbers).

finally, i'm amazed that my being asian should affect what you think I can conclude about asian populations. That it a bigoted opinion, if there ever was one.

wilbjammin... see my post above.

I'm not offended. I'm only offended when you use Asian as a description to descibe all the populace on the Asian continent. If supporting evidence seems to be extrapolated from Japan, it cannot speak for the other groups.

How is this relevant to the thread's subject matter?

Explain to me why it matters so much to you that your "poverish un-supported country" isn't viewed as being a couple inches shorter on average compared to white Americans. We haven't even established this being a reason that Asian women would like white Americans... I don't particularly care if it is true or isn't, why do you care so much? And what does it mean on a macro-level in terms of interracial relationships? If this is something that you want to keep talking about, I suggest you start a new thread rather than making this all about how you're a 6'2" Asian. Maybe title it "I'm Asian and 6'2", this isn't weird" or something.

You see... you are OFF TOPIC. And you are driving me crazy.

See my above post and consider the questions I had asked. Try to stay on-topic.

yes, my mistake. i forgot about singapore. singapore is a SE asian country that has a very high standard of living and i don't have any data on it. but still i'm going to DEDUCE that the average singaporean height is not that much different from the average hong kong height.

if you don't follow this logic, you should be a politician, not a scientist.

I'm not off topic. If data only suggests certain area of a populace, it cannot apply towards another area. It's like saying that the evidence is tampered with. For example, you murdered someone, there was overwhelming evidence for the scene to accuse to the suspect. But, the evidence was used towards another person? How illogical.

I want to let them aware not to associate irrelevent data to apply towards another group. Numbers cannot measure choice. Heck, here in my University the Asians always live in their own niche residential halls. So, it's hard for me to see the relevence in the theme of this topic, hence, my defence.

I will respond to this since you asked me to.

You didn't mention Imperialism in China, the Spanish-American War and the Philippines, and many other historical events. I don't really think that many Asians are attracted to our machismo attitude. What I do think is happening, is a reaction towards established gender roles in these Asian nations that women are tired of. Confucianism promotes men over women and seeing the liberated attitudes of American women on television probably has more to do with it than anything. That's my take.

On topic, if bullshit, theory:
1> Assume no racial discrimination (in the broadest term). Even in an area with relatively lots of asiams, there will probably be more europeans. So, if people "randomly" pair up, you'd see more asian-white pairs than asian-asian pairs.

2> Being "more considerate" (justified or not) might give someone an edge in forming/keeping a relationship. Being viewed as "more considerate" would as well. Steriotypically, North American males of European discent are "more considerate" of the partner in a relationship, as are asian females. If you buy into the level-set theory of relationships (people form relationships with others of similar relationship "value" or "quality" in percentile terms[1]), this would place a bias towards them pairing up.

Footnote
[1] Ie, the "best 1%" of the male and the "best 1%" of the female would tend to pair up. (or, more precicely, there is a correlation between the relationship-quality of people who form relationships). This is bullshit because "relationship-quality" can only really be determined by analyzing how people select relationship partners, and hence you get a rather stupid circular arguement.

As noted, all of the above statements are somewhere between mild fabrications and bald all-out lies.

yakk: interesting theory--though I might agree that caucasians might be more giving in a relationship than asian-born asians (let's say east asian (china, korea, japanese), since the other asian countries don't share the strong confucian background), i don't really think it's true of american-born asian males. I don't know anyone american-born (or predominantly raised in america) asian-americans who is looking for a wife to be subservient. And yet there still seems to be a discrepency in the number of asian female/caucasian male relationships than in asian male/caucasian female relationships...? and there is a real distaste (at least among my acquantances) on the part of some female asian-americans about dating asian-americans, in that they have NEVER dated an asian, despite growing up with a circle of friends that included many.

also, the idea of the 'imperial race' sounds like a possible theory too--i bet back in the day, roman citizens got all the girls. in jamaica (i lived there for 2 years in peace corps), there's still a strong idea that you should try to 'put cream into the coffee'.

now i might get a little sexist: for the 'inferior race' woman to marry the 'superior race' male, she gets to be part of a family that is possibly more financially stable, has more prestige, and gets a husband who resembles the famous leaders and entertainers that the media has shown are great people. The male is not looking for any of that--he's more interested in if the woman is hot or not and if she has a pleasant personality. Therefore he is less subject to looking at racial lines and more prone to just considering how good she looks.

Using this same logic, an 'inferior race' male would desire a 'imperial race' woman if she were attractive and nice, but the woman would have no desire to marry into a relationship with potentially less financial stability, less prestige, etc etc.

Ok, those are all gross generalizations. But on the other hand, there have been surveys showing that women value financial stability and success in a mate, while men value attractiveness more. but rip on my theory if you like. :)

Why, you ask? Two words, Oedipus complex.

crackas got the yellow fever

For a while (about a year) I went out with an asian chick and the main thing she said about this was that the guys were just generally lazy and all they wanted to do is breakdance. This was just her experience with the asian(phillipino) male population in our city so I am not trying to say this is the truth.

Of course. Sons will usually tend to be attracted to women who resemble their mothers in some ways just like daughters are usually attracted to males who resemble their fathers.

Usually.

I think this makes a lot more sense than any sort of wishy-washy "white guys are nicer" rationale.

It used to bother me whenever I saw white guys with asian girls but now I don't really care anymore. There is a stereotype that among asian men that most asian girls are after sugar daddies. This could be true. I must be in the minority of asian men who have big dicks. Asian girls who like big dicks think we all have small dicks so they don't give us a chance. It's sad really.

I gotta say theres some interesting theories around here. I've heard most of them, but its an interesting discussion nonetheless.

The trend does bother me to be honest. I know a lot of asian guys that are less confident due to this imbalance.

Personally, it kinda ticks me off as an asian guy, so I like dating white girls to fight the trend and prove it can work the other way too ;)

I think you should look at the environment factor as well. Look at it this way if you are bought up in a society where all "attractive" females/males are usually white ( from media and social interaction) this is going to play a big part in what you see as attractive. We as humans like to conform with others in hope that we are liked by them so we all conform to the one idea of attractiveness and since more of these asians living in western society are exposed to so much of it they follow the same patterns as their white counterparts.

Take me for example i'm an asian living in a white dominated society. I have little to no interest in most asian girls even though i've been friends to alot of them. Its because during my development as a child i was surrounded by people majority of european decent. I don't think i will ever have high interests in asians because of the way i was bought up. So i suppose you have to look at the environment factor in this.

Spidey, you should give asian women a try. I used to be like you not interested in asian girls then I dated one. Let me tell you they are absolutely freaky and wild in bed. Give it a whirl.

I will if i like them, but i have yet to meet one that i like.

Its not always about their appearance, its what they can do.
For example i love girls who can sing and play a musical instrument, and asian girls as far as i know like books.

My first GF's were asian, and im white, so it was all right but
the relationships didnt work out that well.

Needless to say im only attracted to white girls now
(not that i dont like asians)

Ok, my wife is East-Indian, I'm white boy... She is completely unattracted to Indian men because of the cultures demands on Hindu brides. On the other hand, American man are quite accustomed to kissing ass in a relationship, so an American man with an East-Indian has potential to create a relationship that fosters reciprocity....

I would just like to take this opportunity to say that while many Asian women are quite beautiful, I find half Asian half White women to be extremely gorgeous and sexy, and prefer them generally to full Asian women.

... If you want theories... lets look at the numbers... There are a HELL lot more white guys than asian guys. So for every 1 asian guy that an asian girl meets, she meets 10 white guys. Nearly all guys (white, black and hispanic) like dating asian girls. This means there are a lot more non-asian guys go after asian girls.

Wow, i stumbled across this thread while looking for a clothing thread, and felt that it was necessary that i add my two cents.

I am an Asian American guy, I came to America from Taiwan when I was four, and have pretty much grown up here. Now, taking an objective view of American society, I see that there are pretty much no Asian 'sex icons' in popular culture. In media, asian guys are almost always seen as the studious, smart, yet subservient type (ie. the computer genius). On the other hand, we have multiple white 'sex symbols.' We have Jude Law, the intellectual sexy, Brad Pitt, the surfer/wild sexy, and of course we have various singers. This would partially explain why asian guys are generally not as lucky with asian girls.

As for white people being attracted to asian girls, and being seen as exotic, it is largely because of asian american history. The first chinese girl brought to america was put on display, for viewing by the barnum brothers. Later chinese females came to america during the gold rush, in which the guy/girl ratio was very off (95% men vs 5% women...). For this reason asian girls were generally 'employed' in to brothels, since they were in high demand (most also had to pay off their travel debt).

In the late 19th century and early 20th century, tourist guides and media would portray asian girls as exotic sexual creatures. Apparently, this has stuck with us, since i still see asian girls being portrayed as exotic sex fiends.


I would think that asian guys are, in general, shorter. However, given that they are fairly well built (Chest, abs, ass...etc..), it shouldn't be a problem, unless they are like 5'3". Most asians i know are about 5' 8" not bad, considering the avg. male height is reputed to be 5' 9."

==========
Now here's my *own* view. As asian americans, we have a tendency to deny, to dislike and feel ostracized by our fellow asians and asian americans. I remember back in 9th grade, when i got rejected by a couple of asian girls, i was completely unattracted to asian girls for a number of years. Furthermore, it would be easy for asian americans to dislike pure asians, because Asian and American values differ (asian americans would probably be more american than anything else). Lastly, there is a tendency for Asian Americans to feel that their Asian heritage is, in a word, inferior to American culture. Thus, when they see asian, they see old, but when they see american guys, they think of superiority.

Truthfully, the White guy/Asian girl thing bothers me, mostly because i feel that my fellow asians are getting the short end of the stick. What is so much 'greater' about white guys? (Really don't mean to offend anyone here, but I am speaking from the heart). Alot of times, i feel like asian guys are not "good enough" for asian girls. In fact, i even had one guy say to me about competition over a girl that, "The only thing he has over you is that he's white." What makes white a plus?

Nevertheless, i must also concede that the majority of single asian guys i know are either relationship/sexually inept. In addition, most of these guys are also very insecure and shy.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't want to be a stick-in-the-mud but there isn't, nor has there ever been, 9 billion people on earth. Perhaps you or he meant 6 billion?

Oh, I don't know. I've won the heart of someone who never found asian men attractive and never thought she'd date one. So, you never know! Unless you have a prejudice against them...

The answer is actually quite simple and I'm sure to ruffle a few feathers.

Asian women are self-hating. In our modern society we have been braiwashed to associate "white as right" and all things western as "correct" or superior. Just look at media images etc. It's not good or bad, it just is, so don't all excited and try and brand me a racist or whatever.

It's not just confined to Asians. Other races experience this as well. Look around. Lighter skinned people tend to be viewed as more attractive and successful people of color tend to "upgrade" by out marrying to lighter skinned or white folks for status or whatever. In addition, they move into "white areas" as well.

As for the Asian chick, anti fishstick, who said, "I don't find Asian guys attractive", that just proves my point. Most women tend to "fall" for men that most resemble themselves or their father. But because she obviously hates being Asian (cause it's not a cool race or whatever) she associates all things Asian as negative. It's also denial. "Oh I'm not Asian, I'm American", then distancing themselves and surrounding themselves with all white friends etc.

It's actually pretty sad.

As for white dudes, well, that's pretty obvious. They are objectifying, fetishizing, exoticfying their fantasy. They are more into the "trophy" novelty and the prospect of getting some Saigon Slut and "me so horny" loving. Just look at the previous posts and the subtext. Same goes for hot Latina (love that J-Lo) or Jungle sex with Halle Berry thinking.

Not one mentioned any individuality or anything of substance in their relationship with an Asian chick. Instead, stereotypes are used to justify behavior and sandbag entire demographics.

Perception is a powerful thing.

By the way, the whole height thing is ridiculous. That stereotype thing is outdated. Welcome to the millenium, you really can't think like that (or maybe you can but that's just ignorance). I've been to China, Asia and there's plenty of tall, short, skinny fat etc all over the place. Especially with better nutrition and stuff.

Also, Asians who try to distance themselves by buying into the race dynamic: dissing on other Asians etc are not helping but rather making things worse by reinforcing negative stereotypes and perpetuating falsehoods.

FaderMonkey, So the Korean girl who claimed that she didn't date Asian guys because they had small dicks has fucked all of them? What a slut! No, wait, she's an idiot and said something that you liked to hear and made you feel like a man. Thereby pleasing you and contributing to your continued ignorance (not a personal dis, just a theoretical example using your post).

Consider the following:
Black guys are notorious for "upgrading" - You'd think they are as desperate as Asian chicks. They're always trying to get with a white chick or lighter skinned minority. Maybe it's because blacker women have pussies that are just too darn loose for their big dicks. Or is it cause black chicks are too uppity and white chick are more demure and feminine?

Think about that for a minute. Now start substituting the racial descriptives and you'll start to understand the social phenomena. Try to see this post as an abstract. I used generalizations because I didn't want to write a freakin' 500 page dissertation with citations, footnotes etc.

One day (hopefully), all the so-called races and ethnicites will be so mixed up that nobody will give a flying-fuck what or who anyone is. I think the census numbers have shown increase in multi-ethnic population count (US). Slow, but steady. Say a hundred years or so, multi-ethnic will be the majority and whites, blacks, Asians whatever will be the minorities. *shrug*

Just my two-cents...

There is definitely something to be said about the "power" thing too. It is my understanding that it is perfectly natural that women would lean towards attraction to men of wealth, power etc...

Hence old, fat, ugly dude (regardless of race) tend to constantly get hot chicks or whatever.

Incidentally, Judge Lance Ito (of OJ Simpson trial fame) and Secretary of Transportation Norm Mineta (the guy who had to ground all flight and implement new security measures after 9/11) are married to white chicks.

Maybe probability and availability plays into it as well although I'm not entirely sure as to what Yakk was saying (Yakk's posts are usually excellent - grounded in logic and supported with good info - see his Canadian threads) so I'll gander a guess.

Statistically, in the US, Asians only make up 13% and are distributed throughout the country. If you're the only Asian chick in your town and there are no Asian dudes then badabing, you go with what you have - just a vague oversimplification.

I didn't understand your first sentence but, given the second, I take it you don't think a sample of 1000 is very representative of a sample space of 2,000,000,000. However, the fact of the matter is that 1000 samples is enough to represent the height of a population of 2,000,000,000 to within a reasonable degree. That's why statistics is such a powerful tool. Statistics are only misleading because it is practiced by people, like yourself, who don't understand it...

That's why asian men must expand their dating pool by dating white women. Doesn't that make it all better?

Of course no man would "think it cool." Racism isn't very cool...

Knifemissile, I think you might have misunderstood ConsoleMaster.

I get your point about the Japanese sample etc. By itself sure, sounds about right. There's more to it also. I think anthropologists or sociologists can explain better.

It's like, Japan is a relatively homogenous population with relatively low genetic variation ( I guess, "purer", so to speak) so the 1000 statistic is fairly viable.

BUT, I think this is ConsoleMaster's point: You can't use Japan's statistic to describe all of Asia or whatever or to represent China, India. Something like that.

I'm going to go out on a limb here but maybe we could use the US election as an example of statistical analysis. FOr example: I don't think we could use one state's stats to describe all of the US. If 1000 in California tend to lean Kerry, would that mean all of the US leans Kerry?

Or maybe this example:
If we could say, if 1000 men in Canada were shorter than Swedes, could we say that all North American men are shorter than Swedes?

Interesting stat problem...

Quote: Of course no man would "think it cool." Racism isn't very cool...

Haha, I agree, great answer.

Wait, what's a Knife Missle? Is it like a Flying Dagger?

jorgelito

How would you try to explain white male/asian female relationships in non-western countries? Would you still maintain it stems from the woman's desire for a powerful white partner and self loathing and the man's desire to fulfill his "Saigon sluty" fantasy? You've "been to China, Asia", obviously you feel you can knowledgeably weigh in on this.

That is a good question FL8ME.

My opinion is that:

1. China is an odd example. It might be the only Asian country I know of that is not as obsessed with white guys/culture as other countries. It may be due to it's size and relative strength. But it's not the easy pickings for whites guys like SE Asia.

As for white dudes' Hanoi hump-hump me-luv-you-long-time fantasy, well, that's a big reason why they travel there in the first place. Either sex tours, mail order brides, or fetish traveling, it's all indicative of the same syndrome.

2. In other areas however, I believe the overwhelming tendency is still to move up or "upgrade" In other words, getting a green card. Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to make a value judgement, I'm merely trying to understand a social phenomena. Not judging right or wrong.

Asia is very crowded and many people believe in the American dream and are in awe and wonder of America and the West (based on media, movies, etc). SO many people desire a better life and wish to emigrate to US, Canada etc.

As for perceptions of quality, beauty andything subjective, well, the underlying reasons would still go back to East-West dynamics, developing countries vs. developed countries. For example, Western domination in economics dictates the Western media, marketing, promotion. Therefore, western images of beauty of value are still able to penetrate Asian, African etc countries.

One example would be the obsession with eyelid surgery among Korean females in Korea. (Actually, eyelid surgery is rather rampant everywhere, a desperate bid by Asians to look "Western". Kind of sad don't you think?) Mutiliating oneself to fit a socially constructed standard of beauty imposed by a dominant power.

On the other hand, if Japan were to be the superpower today and Western countries the source of cheap labor and subservient roles, would white chicks be getting eyelid surgery to look more Asian?

On a small scale, it has happened. During my travels through Asia, I've met many, many Western girls (Europe, US, Canada) modeling in Asia. There was this one hot blond I was dating. After a while, she couldn't get as much work so she ended up dying her hair dark brown and all of a sudden got more work. SO in this particular case, she adapted to the dominant culture of where she was at the time.

Now, you could say, "hey what about Asian dudes trying to get white chicks?" Good question too. I would respond with, the gender dynamic. I believe culturally, there are different demands placed upon males vs. females, especially in that part of the world. SO the son would prefer to do well and stick around home, whereas a daughter (generally speaking not as valued) would actually have more potential freedom to do whatever she wants. Either marry some dude there, and end up serving him and his family or maybe moving abroad. The latter choice opens up the possibility for the whole family to be able to emigrate. All of a sudden, good job daughter! Moving to a Western country like US, Canada, Australia (as a family unit) is a big deal.

I've met so many Asian girls who say, wow, you're girlfriend is so beautiful, she has blond hair or blue eyes or big eyes. I'm ugly because I have small eyes flat nose etc.

That whole region needs some therapy and daily affirmation of something.

Similarly, I've met a lot of Caribbean and African folks traveling around. One thing I've noticed: They are always embarrassed to say they are from Africa. They always say, "I'm from New York" when it's not true.

Keep in mind, these are somewhat vague generalizations in an attempt to get a macro view of this social phenomena. I am not trying to offend any group but may use certain terms for convenience. I personally believe that healthy and civil debate contributes positively to our body of knowledge and understanding and furthers our humanity.

I didn't read all of the original post because it was quite long, but I'll say this:

My ex girlfriend is Chinese. I am a mixture of Native American, Spanish, and a whole lot of white-European. At first, she was weary of dating me because she had only dated asian guys in the past, and her parents always told her to marry a "nice, wealthy Chinese man." Well, after a long time of just being fuck buddies, we became quite attached to each other, so she decided to introduce me to her parents. Her parents LOVED me, so finally she decided that it was cool for us to be "official."

About a year later, after we broke up, she went on this fuck-every-guy-she-sees spree, and they all happened to be white males. Her current boyfriend is a white, jewish blonde. One day I asked her why she was no longer attracted to asian guys, and she said, "Well, you introduced me to big dicks. Besides, I despise being asian, and dating another asian is just...ew!"

Despite the twisted compliment she threw in there, I was quite sickened by what she had to say. Here she was, the same girl who used to bring me asian porridge for breakfast before school; the same girl who I used to eat Spam and rice with; the same girl who would translate for me whenever we would go eat Dim-Sum, saying, "I despise being Chinese." Now she's COMPLETELY white-washed, even going so far as trying to adopt a British accent!

But once in awhile when I hang out with her, I STILL catch her switching her L's with R's, and it just let's me know that her own heritage will never completely escape her. :)

CityofAngels,

your anecdote is one of many examples that "proves" my theory (I know, I know, hardly scientific) of autoracism and race dynamic perception.

How sad that so many groups of people see themselves so lowly. Blacks are similar too, at least in the US. Many disassociating themselves from other blacks, trying to act "white". Saying, "I ain't no nigger!" or lighter skinned blacks trying to pass for white.

Attitudes like hers, tells others that it's ok to treat other Asians like shit or that the stereotypes are true. The net effect is one of dehumanization and racial prejudice. It makes it all the worse when it comes from within and is the ultimate betrayal. I feel sorry for Asians in the social department, they certainly have it rough.

Exactly. Looking back on 2004, I think the only Asian "singer" to get widespread media attention in USA was William Hung. I mean no offense, but I think he is the image of the stereotypical Asian man in most American's minds.


Also, compare the accents of immigrants to USA. British accents are usually considered to be sexy. Australian accents the same. Even the accents of people from non-English speaking European countries are considered sexy - Italian, Spanish, French accents, etc.

But you never hear anyone saying a thick Japanese accent speaking English is sexy. Instead, East-Asian accented English is, at best, poked fun at ("Engrish").

westothemax makes an excellent point in supplementing KirStang's theory. Both are good examples of socially constructed values ascribed to perceptions of ethnic identity. In this manner, western media or predominance of western culture, has conspired (intentionally or not, it doesn't matter) to render the Asian male ineffetual, unmanly etc. therefore unattractive or undesirable to anyone.

It'll be interesting to see what the next 100 years brings. Change can come about rapidly, especially with shifts in the balance of power, economics, and ensuing culture. Heck, maybe even 50 years, who knows.

Well, considering that I'd know a thing or two about her, since she's my girlfriend:

She never met her real dad, he skipped off before she was born. But, going by your reasoning, even if she did grow up around him, all of us should be locked into some sort of Freudian trap and always fall for people like our parents? That is a strange stance...

I would never simply refer to her as a "chick", its disrespectful.

We've been together for a year, and we have a strong relationship.

There are Asian cultures, and there are cultures in America. Given that she has spent the majority of her life in a predominately white community, with a white-step dad, speaking American English and living a normal American life there is no reason to say she should be "more Asian" or that she hates being Asian. She simply identifies more with what she's been around. Your claim is the same as saying that I should like Germans and Prussians because of my ancestry, even though I don't speak German and don't have many connections to German and Prussian traditions.

I don't treat her like a trophy. Relationships take a lot of work, and we've put that work in, and are continuing to put that work in.

You are using stereotypes and demographics to "sandbag" the idea that a white man could have a meaningful relationship with an Asian woman. There are bad interracial relationships, and good interracial relationships. The way to judge relationships is to look at how they function.


I could say more, but this covers the basics of the vast generalizations that you've made that I find to be misplaced.

Uh.. Where did you get off thinking that I *obviously* hate being asian? You're making a big leap and jumping to conclusions.

1) My step-dad is white. I've never met my real dad. My boyfriend is nothing like my dad. At best, the ONLY similarity is skin color. But who cares.

2) I'm proud of my culture and family and the fact that I come from a different background than most people in my area. I think international/multi-racial studies are fascinating, so there's definitely no negativity there. I also love the asian aesthetic, and have been naturally drawn to eastern philosophies which I've found out on my OWN since I was raised catholic and rejected the religion. So, in my opinion, all things western are NOT "correct" or superior. I have rejected a lot of things that society thinks is correct.

3) There is simply not many asians in my area. I'm going to go for what's there. I don't think about skin color on a conscious level when I'm with someone. It's not like I think "oh, I need to find an asian now". That would be the same kind of objectified exoticism displayed when caucasians seek asians solely to have an asian. I don't objectify people.

I go for character, personality and looks. I've been attracted to caucasians, blacks, asians, hispanics... But in general, I'm most attracted to caucasians. My reasoning for not being attracted to asians is because in traditional asian culture, asian men are dominant and treat the woman with little respect, or at least not by my "americanized" standards. I just can't relate to most asian subcultures because I haven't grown up around them. They're very different from my perspectives that I have grown up with and I don't think I would be attracted to it.

4) I do think I'm american. I'm a US citizen and I've lived here most my life. But I don't think I'm white, and there's a difference.


Nope, no prejudices here. I don't even think about ethnicity when I date people. That's what people don't seem to get here. White males who look for asians are doing so for the sole reason that they're asian. When wilbjammin met me, he wasn't looking for an asian, but our character and personalities matched really well. I never look for asians. I've never dated one but I wouldn't be against it if our personalities matched and I found enough similarities there.

On the other hand, if I were living in the Philippines and an American was looking for a Filipino wife, I probably wouldn't be receptive to that even though many Filipina women do just so that they can go to the states and live a better life. For me, any sort of objectification or "trophy" is not a better life. This would be just as bad (and function similarly) as a dominant Asian man/subdominant Asian woman relationship.

jorgelito

I appreciate your intelligent and well thought out responses on this board and while I feel like there is something to the comments that you're making, I still have this overwhelming feeling that you are only talking about a minority and not the majority. I just haven't had the same experiences as you. Indeed there are many women and men who are embarrased by their heritage be it stemming from lack of self esteem or confindence, a need to be accepted or whathaveyou. However, in your younger years, say 12-24, everyone has this problem at some point, it just becomes magnified when you look different. Or maybe even because you look the same and want to be different. You ever seen those white kids who try to act "black". Anyway, my experiance in Asia, chiefly in living in and visiting Japan, China, Hong Kong, South Korea (essentially industrialized Asia), has shown me the cultural emphasis on group thinking and dynamics. The few women in these countries that choose to date western men (while still a lot, is nowhere near even twenty percent of the female population) perhaps are attracted to the successful looking white guy, although in these countries with already humming economies it is less likely you will find a white guy that is the most successful, or even near the top. It seems just as likely to date a white man because you are a self hating, status hungry person as you are if you're just disallusioned by social norms. While I've never been to southeast Asia, I agree your theory seems more likely there, but how many of these women marry and leave the country with white men they meet? Again not a majority of the women. Just because you may work in the sex trade that caters to western tourists, doesn't necessarily mean you would want to leave with them. It probably just mean you understand you can take the most money from them while they're there.
In the case of countries that have already reached the first world, it seems your case would represent less than one might think. Yes eye surgery is popular in S. Korea and Japan, but by no means do a majority of these women have these cultural self-hating tendencies. Of course this is just my opinion. I hope I made this coherent enough :hmm:

I have to comment on this one..

Although opposite, Asian male, white female.

My best friend is an asian male, and his girlfriend/fiance is white. Now, she is the mother of 3 kids, from 2 dads, been married, divorced, had a kid out of wedlock to save a relationship that was downhill from the start. How do I know this, because she was also a very goo friend of mine. Bad choices or not, she was always a very nice, honest person, or so I thought.

Since theyve gotten together, I've seen things from here I never expected. Comments, ingorant, jealous attitude, things I didn't see before. But, now I have seen the side of her that is not likable at all.

What does this have to do with an asian you ask? Well, she doesn't want to work for anything, she wants everything handed to her on a platter. Asians in my experience, are family orintated people. Very dependent upon family members, and very, very loyal to friends. He has taken in her 3 kids. Not married, in 7 months bought her new appliances, paying her day care, paying her car payment, paying her house payments, all the while, he works his ass off, while she calls into work, he's workng his days off, overtime, while she sits at home. Since they've become together, he still lieks to do thins with his "boys". She will do anything in her power to set the kids aside to be able to allow time for the attention she craves.

He's very loyal, and doesn't see the problem with any of this. IMO, asian people are very loyal to friends, and family and this is no different. He's so loyal someone is using him, or so I think, and neglecting everything else to do it. His family is also not happy with the arrangement, and I truly believe it's because she's white. It also seems to me asians like to keep it within the culture. I'm not sure though, but all his brothers are married to other asian women.

I personally don't see any problems with it, it's just a story I had to share.

Fl8me,

You're right on. You see how individual experiences differ from generalities or stereotypes. That was my problem with the original line of thinking. Just read the first ten posts to see what I mean.

Although we both traveled in the same area, we experienced and interpreted things differently. Neither of us are "social scientists" (at least I am assuming you're not). If we look at things form a macro level, then we get a different view.

For example, if we aggregate all the threads and quantify the experiences we may get an interesting picture that defies our conventional way of thinking. In other words, we sandbag ourselves, but this way, we may learn something new.

As for the other two rebuttals, I did not intend to make personal attacks or purposely offend. Rather I was trying to present an alternative viewpoint on the issue. If you recall, I point out many times that I was oversimplifing intentionally to save time and keep the post short.

anti fishstick, your response is excellent. It is drastically different than your first post from which I had based my post on. You present your thoughts very well here (not that I am judge and jury, just my opinion).

In point 3, you make the same generalizations and stereotypes about Asians again. Additionally, in your first post, you do not indicate your "Asian pride" and imply shame in association. But in Point 1 of post 2, you express your point clearly.

wilbjammin,

Quote:
You are using stereotypes and demographics to "sandbag" the idea that a white man could have a meaningful relationship with an Asian woman. There are bad interracial relationships, and good interracial relationships. The way to judge relationships is to look at how they function.

That is exactly my point. It is the classic, "shoe on the other foot" example. I am assuming, that the content of the first page of threads made Asians feel the same way. Sandbagged. Both of you indicated negative stereotypes and sandbagged Asian males as your reason for not dating Asians etc. But in my example, you definitely understand why it's offensive or whatever or incorrect.

Do you guys see what I mean now sort of?

Thanks for your responses, I think they contributed postively to this discussion.

Well, I spent a good deal of energy trying to discuss A) how much of an issue it really is, and B) what are the reasons for it?

Obviously there are cultural reasons driven by the media, as you discuss earlier. I understand that its a problem, however, I just disagree with your framing of the issue. You're claiming that it is all about sex, and while that may be true in many cases, there are also many relationships that persist and exist beyond merely a sexual aesthetic level.

The negative stereotypes are there, and there are reasons for them. I don't think that the emasculation of the Asian man is as big of a contributing factor as the objectification of women by Asian men and the subserviant expectations that are upheld. Those traditionalist values are being challenged and have been challenged with the introduction of Western culture via media and the expansion of the global market. Again, I must reiterate what I've said before, which is that culture does vary significantly between different parts of Asia, so to discuss this issue you'd need to look at the home country of those involved, where the interactions are taking place (Oregon is much different than Alabama, and definitely much different than Manilla, Cebu City, or Tokyo).

I think that alienation and a desire for independence are key factors for many Asian women when considering to stay within their culture. Whether or not being faced with traditionalists, there is going to be an expectation that being approached by someone <i>only</i> because they're of the same ethnicity as you are that they're looking for some sense of familiarity and to continue within social norms of that culture. After being removed from that culture in some way and then finding that there are aspects of that culture that you don't want to be part of, being approached because of your ethnicity is going to be unappealing. Just like it is unappealing to be approaching by someone of another ethnicity just because you're exotic...

Agreed. We really are talking about a multitude of issues, some which converge, some which stand alone.

I do understand what you are saying but I disagree that I framed it all about sex. I must of not made myself very clear then. I had thought I used a variety of examples to illustrate the various aspects of the points offered.

Additionally, keep in mind that I was also including other ethnicities as well. Actually, my main point is the whole notion of ethnicity and race as a whole but that's for another time.

Also, I want to make it clear that I am not "sandbagging" the media either (lol). It's just one part to a multi-part mechanism covering the social strata in which we are dealing with. Remember, stereotypes transend race as well.

Think the classic trailer park wife beater - does that mean all Euro descent males are like that? Of course not. Likewise, not all Asian males (I'm assuming) are traditionally minded or sexist what have you. Nor do macho moustached Latino males all beat their wives either. So on and so forth.

Quote:
Again, I must reiterate what I've said before, which is that culture does vary significantly between different parts of Asia, so to discuss this issue you'd need to look at the home country of those involved, where the interactions are taking place (Oregon is much different than Alabama, and definitely much different than Manilla, Cebu City, or Tokyo).

Excellent point - I agree, that is why it is critical we don't make the same prejudgments and continue sandbagging.

Quote:
I think that alienation and a desire for independence are key factors for many Asian women when considering to stay within their culture. Whether or not being faced with traditionalists, there is going to be an expectation that being approached by someone only because they're of the same ethnicity as you are that they're looking for some sense of familiarity and to continue within social norms of that culture. After being removed from that culture in some way and then finding that there are aspects of that culture that you don't want to be part of, being approached because of your ethnicity is going to be unappealing. Just like it is unappealing to be approaching by someone of another ethnicity just because you're exotic...

There is an excellent article regarding this very issue from the BBC. I can't locate it right now but: it basically says, that in Japan, many women are looking abroad for the very reason you stated above.

The only problem I have is that Asian men and Asian American men are different. Just like Asian American women and Asian women are different (I am using generalizations here). So it's easy to start "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" as it were.

Ah, here it is:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1206/p....html?s=rsswmh

Caveat: I would take this with a grain of salt but it is still interesting nonetheless.

A few quick comments, (last three girlfriends Asian, as is current belle)
Where I come from (middle of the Can. Prairies) the majority of the Asian community primarily dates Asians. Considering that they represent such a small percentage of the population, (I'd imagine it's less than 10%) I would have expected that interracial couples would be the norm. The odds of finding a good match with the limited number of Asians in the area should have been difficult, what with an overwhelming number of white folk around. And yet, in this circumstance (Middle of Nowhere, Canada) at least, most Asians stick to their own. Why? Who knows. Yes, there are a lot of Asian girl/Western boy relationships, but there are a heck of a lot more Asian boy/Asian girl relationships. The lack of Asian boy/western girl relationships might have as much to do with the Asian mother situation as anything else. A lot of the Asian guys I've spoken to have said their mother would never permit them to marry a white girl. Is that the rule? No, there are exceptions. However, for whatever reasons Asian families often have less of a problem with their daughters dating interracially.
What do you guys say? If you're an Asian guy has your mother/father/grandmother etc said anything or made you aware of a bias about marrying an Asian girl? Girls? Same question in reverse. I'd be interested to see the results.

EDIT: Hmm...while I was typing that there were some good reasoned replies. Yes, I should be reprimanded for lumping Asians in as a group, the differences between the different cultures of the region are very pronounced.
As for the Japanese comment above, that is mostly true, and yet my girlfriend has no desire to leave Japan, or even learn English, so if she's dating me to get away from Japanese life she's being very sly about it...

Read the above article, interesting stuff. But of course it is a gross generalization but still pertinent to the discussion.

Oops,

I quoted incorrectly. I'm not very good with the discussion board interface. I hope you all can discern what is what and understand the post. Thanks.

To add to Wilbjammin, I have been approached both by other Filipinos because I am Filipino and Americans because I am Filipino... Both are unappealing and a bit alienating, or just weird. For me, I don't ultimately relate to someone just by ethnicity. I may think it's neat that someone is Filipino and may get excited because there's not a lot of us in Oregon, but there has to be other things there for me to really latch on to some sense of familiarity (interests, personality, etc.)

A couple weeks ago, I was approached by someone on the metro who asked what my nationality was and then said he lived in the Philippines for 6 months in the military. My guess is that he noticed I was asian, and probably Filipino, and decided to sit by me (I thought it was weird when he sat by me and remember being uncomfortable because there were lots of empty seats at the time). He mentioned he ate with his hands there, and made some weird comment about how he didn't end up getting married (was he looking?). I know he was probably trying to relate with me, but it was very awkward and alienating.

This is not necessarily true. Typically, when I think of asians that like to keep within the culture, I think of Chinese tradition. Or again, places in the US (California, New Jersey, etc)with a big enough asian subculture for there to be groups of asians and therefore, opportunities to date other asians. But, there is a big underground market for mail order brides, or the slightly more neutral "pen-pal" service (which is basically the same thing, at least, with intentions). Often, family members and friends are *happy* when a female finds an American male so that they can fly to the States. Often, friends joke to the new bride about finding them "pen-pals" so they can move there too.

When I visited the Philippines, ALL of the young people (both males and females) my age or older that I met there asked me for pen-pals. I think this has something to do with the state of the economy/government/poor conditions etc. that make it an undesirable place for them to live. But it also may have to do with thinking the States/Americans are superior. I thought it was really odd that we have all these tanning lotions, tanning salons, etc. Emphasis on darker skin/exoticism being beautiful. In the Philippines, they had commercials for making the skin *whiter*. Emphasis on Western aesthetic...

It also has a lot to do with the Philippines and the military base, like my story about the man who lived there for 6 months. Many Filipinas DID whore themselves and knew that they could use their sexuality as a means to get more money, just to get by. This is directly related to mail order brides because it's this concept of objectification and "buying" a female that made the business so popular. Both people, in a sense, are using eachother. The man, of course, is looking for a wife and wants to have someone to take care of the house, etc. The woman just wants a better life in another country and is aware that she may be sacrificing a lot of things, though willing to take the consequences. There's a lot of ethical issues here and it's not something I'm particularly proud of (when I worked for fast food my peers asked if I was into prostituting or some crass remark because they knew I was Filipino. It's sad that this is what my country is known for)... but these women do know what they're doing and have voluntarily put themselves out there.

My girlfriend is Norwegian, I am Chinese. My mother has always told me that she would like it if I married a Chinese girl, but she has never disapproved of me dating non-Chinese girls. My grandmother (Dad's mom) is more conservative. She doesn't talk to me about these things, but you can definitely tell what she's thinking when I bring my girlfriend with me when I visit my grandparents.

I can almost understand where my family is coming from, since my dad is the only boy his parents had, and I am the only boy my parents had, so I am the one that will carry on the family name and all that. But it's not like I'm going to breakup with my girlfriend just because she's white... that's just...horrible.

My girlfriend and I have been talking about what to do after college since we both graduate in June (we've been together since Freshman year of college). We'll probably move in with each other, depending on the job situation. I'm pretty sure she'd be more than happy to get married right away but I think I want to wait a few more years. So I'll probably find out how my family really feels about inter-racial marriage within a few years.

I was going to make some points here, but looks like they've already been made. Blame it on media, stereotypes, imperialism, exoticism, cultural rebellion, etc. What is unfortunate is that, though I noticed this trend in the 90s when I was in college, it's still prevalent. I don't have anything against interracial relationships / miscegenation, but I find the reasons for it are... sad and pathetic. I've asked some of my Asian female friends why they liked dating white men. Some gave lame excuses, like they just haven't found any Asian men that they would find attractive, or that Asian men tend to be chauvanistic (which I find hard to believe among US-born Asian men). And I had a white male roommate who would only date Asian women. When asked why, he admitted it was exoticism. Lame.

I don't know why more Asian men don't date outside their ethnicity. I was always open to it, but my friends weren't. I'm sure it's a cultural thing, like wanting to please one's parents or something. But I would rarely see the Asian-male/white-female coupling, and never the Asian-male/black-female nor Asian-male/latina-female combination.

When I was back in college, I remember complaining with my Asian freinds about the white-male/Asian-female thing. I remember it feeling disempowering, like "they were taking our women". Of course, that was a terribly sexist thing to think, but I was stupid then. One of my more thuggish friends actually assaulted a white-man for dating an Asian woman. Can you say hate crime? Lots of rage from feeling emasculated, I think.

But now that I'm happily married (to a wonderful woman who happens to be Asian) I don't even think about these things anymore. At least, not until my daughters become teenagers.

About the height thing, I think people in Asian countries are growing taller. They're not as malnourished as they used to be. I grew up in Canada and the US, and I'm an average height of 5'10". I remember visiting Taiwan in the late eighties and towering over everyone else. But when I visited in the late nineties, I noticed a lot more people as tall or taller than me. And look at Yao Ming! What is he, 7'5"?

I live in Canada, in a city that has a fair number of asians, but nowhere near the scale of Toronto or such. There are a lot of asian guys/girls I know that won't date nonasians. I am asian but I don't feel the same way. Infact, I am afraid of dating asian girls because so many asian families are strict and traditional. I was born and raised in Canada, so I am disconnected from a lot of that. I would only date an asian girl who doesn't have really traditional and strict parents, but I haven't had too much luck there. I'm currently dating a caucasian girl I met on campus, and it's going well. My mom does hint that she would prefer I have an asian girlfriend, but she lets me do what I want. My dad always assumed I'd end up with a caucasian girl because of the culture I grew up in, and he's fine with that. I have noticed that my parents are quite lax for asian parents, so I figure I'm among a minority.

It has very little to do with ethnicity and very much to do with the fact that American culture has systematically painted Asian males as completely undesireable in every possible way. Any "my mother would disapprove" speeches are false. How else do you say, "well, most women in this country simply do not find me attractive, without even giving themselves a chance to get to know me"?

Asian american males are systematically victimized. For whatever reason - racism, greed, entertainment, whatever. It's irrelevant. Asian males in america are held hostage by forces beyond their control. There are exceptions to the rule, of course, but nearly everyone on this thread has observed the same general consistencies regarding asian males involved in relationships. It's not a coincidence.

American women (of all ethnicities) are media slaves. They choose their shoes, clothes, shampoo, even cars based on what magazines and media tell them; do you think they are any different with men? American women are just as victimized for this as anyone else in this country; it's a sad, sad phenomenon.

When was the last time you saw an attractive Asian man modeling anything in a magazine? Or a neutral subject in a TV commercial? Or _anything_ other than the comic relief?

I may sound sexist, but that's just what I have observed in my life: men seem to be more open-minded about this sort of thing.

is that from Battle Royale 2?

This was an interesting thread to read. Maybe I'll comment more on it later when it isnt 2 am... just to add I'm asian pretty avg height (5'11) and shy :P insecure? maybe a little. I'm a first generation but I was raised pretty americanized (Whole elementary school/middle school was pretty much non-asian). I think it just has a lot to do with upbringing. I only really liked white women for the longest time because well.. they were the only people I hung out with. haha now that I'm in college I'm trying to reembrace the asian culture :P

Haha, 510Cut, it wasn't really until college that i too started liking Asian girls again.

I believe MFH makes a really good point about the way media portrays Asian men, though it's already been discussed, I usually see asian men being portrayed as funny, yet foolish people. Just look at William Hung, or even Jackie Chan, they are not in the least bit, seen as "hot guys."

W/e, I'll probably add more later...i was kind of trying to keep this topic alive :)

I've been dating my girlfreind seriously for 2.5 years now. She was born in Hong Kong and moved over here at the age of two. Were in typical middle class surburbia so there really isn't an huge asian population. She was rasised basically around white people, but she keeps her roots. She speaks Chinese fluently eats mainland food ect. She's always said that she just doesn't find asian men attractive.

Yea....Why is that?