Female Circumcision
 

A very close friend of mine has had this done and she cant exactly go anywhere to check if she has gotten any infections, diseases or if she is in danger of getting those or worse. I wanted to know where in the Southern California area she can go and get checked up for it anonymously or confidentialy without the need of insurance which her mother would have. She has very strict religious parents that just drive me nuts because she has tried to tell her brothers to take her somewhere to get a check up and her mother overheard her and cussed her out and lectured her on how she cannot do that because it is not religious. (Which basiclly means if you get help the state will put our butts in jail for what we did to you) So I really want to help her because I cant see her just go on with her life and being in the fear of having something without knowing it because of being scared of what will happen to her if she gets help. If anyone could help even a little bit with this situation, I would greatly appretiate it.

Thank You.

presuming that she is over 18- she is a free woman and there are many clinics available for free if she cannot pay- if under 18- then for gods sake call the state child abuse hotline and get their butts thrown in jail- in most states if someone is hotlined, the state HAS TO check it out- especialy if they have the info that she has suffered genital mutilation- this is some sick shit, and should be solved right quick- (sorry for the rant but this stuff should have ended in the middle ages)

Mr A.,

What has happened to your friend is considered assault in the US and rightly so IMHO. It is comparable to a mother hitting her children, a husband beating his wife, etc.

Female circumcision needs to be STOPPED and it never will be if people don't speak out and EXPOSE those doing it!

Please consider this when you decide what you are going to do.

I do not envy the burden on your conscience.

*blinks a few times* I must've lived under a rock my whole life!! I had no idea wtf you guys were talking about until I googled it. 0_o Regardless of where she goes to get checked, the authorities should be informed of this.

What religion are they?

That is seriously fuckin bad man. I cant beleive this shit still goes on anywhere especially in the west. :(

Any Planned Parenthood clinic will 1. work on a sliding fee scale, and 2. protect confidentiality, although they may have an obligation to report abuse if she's under 18.

Religious schmeligious, female circumcision is a cultural aberration based on the worst kind of misunderstanding of gender and sexuality. Ignorance is ignorance, no matter what shield it hides behind. Get your friend to a doctor to make sure she's all right, and then perhaps to a counselor to deal with the issues I'm sure she's going to have to deal with.

Female circumcision is still sadly a commonplace practise.

That said, the issues are more complex when put into a cultural context where the right for century-old traditions should be allowed to persist. As much we feel morally oppposed to this type of mutilation and humiliation, we dont live those people's lives and their lives dont affect us. Outside interferences normally does little to change something so deeply culturally entrenched.

But help your friend. Since she herself is seeking help, i think it would be be best. The rights of the individual are tantamount.

If you live in a city, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a free clinic. But as said before, if she's under 18 it's most likely going to be reported as child abuse.

I just read an article not two days ago about FGM (female genital mutilation) being practiced in the US as a way of tying relocated people to their homeland. Although my many anthropology classes have tried to teach me not to judge one culture by the standards of another (i.e., my own) I can't help but think of this practice as very wrong because of its distorted views on female sexuality and *how* it is usually practiced. But back to topic...I wish you and your friend luck in getting her checked out. Take care, and be blessed.

Female circumcision is no worse and no better then male circumcision. Fuck mythical health benefits.

Is she under 18? This could be a large factor in your decision.

Breaking up a family, even a largely dysfunctional one is a serious step.

That is the saddest thing i have heard in awhile...
I have heard though that sex can still be pleasurable for a woman who has had this... hopefully that will be the case for her...

educate via the web. I was unaware of this practise.

What is wrong with you???

Male circumcision involves removing the foreskin on the penis......It doesn't remove your ability to enjoy sex.

Female circumcision involves removing the clitoris....equivalent to cutting your entire penis off. It is done so that the women will not enjoy sex, and thus, will be more likely to be faithfull to her husband when she grows up. As far as I understand, the womens family has this done to her so she will not dishoner them by being unfaithfull to the person they make her marry.

Are you seriously claiming that they are equivalent?

I don't know about you, but I am circumcised, and I find myself enjoying sex all the time....perhaps circumcision is a foolish custom based on mislead beliefs on health, but it is not a debilitating one.


And to respond to another above poster....Just because a tradition is ancient, doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. I have no respect for this kind of behavior, regardless of the reason. We can't allow people to rape and murder while hiding behind religion, nor can we allow them to mutillate and rob women of their sexuality.

isnt female circumsion basically the removal of the clitoral hood while clitoridectomy is the complete removal of the clitoris?

This kind of thing is brutal, and no one should be allowed to make this kind of decision for anyone else. Her entire life will be completely different now to what it could have been. The bastards.

What It Is:
Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is an invasive and painful surgical procedure that is usually performed without anesthetic on girls before puberty. Their clitoris is partially or completely removed. This inhibits or terminates sexual feelings. It has been a social custom in Northern Africa for many centuries.

from here.


on this issue I'm going to be very intolerant of other customs and beliefs in saying practicers of this should have their entire genitalia removed, regardless of sex. This is a crime against nature to me. The clitoris is the most intriguing part of the human body even tho it's only a female organ. Imagine something that exists solely for pleasure...you'd have to be a real piece of shit to want to destroy something so beautiful.

I can say it because it's true. Everyone pities women and ignores the the fact that a similar mutilation happens to men and it is totally accepted.

Word. This kind of behavoir needs to be harshly punshed. Destroying a woman like this is about as evil an activity as I can imagine. I can't overstate this one.

Well, that's exactly the thing, isn't it? A patriarchal culture is very, very threatened by the clitoris. If there is a technical means of eliminating the central feminine mystery, a patriarchy will develop it, and then codify it into tradition.

I guess it'd never occurred to me that female circumcision was practiced much in the US. Though it makes sense that it might be, among strictly traditional immigrant families.

You're not just ignorant, you're aggressively ignorant. You won't accept the understanding that your information is completely wrong.

There is a HUGE difference between foreskin removal and genital mutilation. The equivalent would be cutting off most of your penis. And yes, this family should be prosecuted. The part about cultural customs is complete bullshit.

i'm going to have to agree....female circumcision is child abuse and is AGAINST THE LAW in the USA. she needs to report that, no matter. children can love their parents very much, but if the parent has harmed the child in anyway, it is always best to report it. hope everything works out. and yes, planned parenthood will see women under 18. all she has to do is produce a pay stub or lack of one and the exam could be free.

Ok, before I can react to this thread...I think clarification is in order.

What exactly is the original poster referring to as 'female circumcision'?

hood removal? clit removal? both? 'female genital mutilation'?

What *exactly* is going on here?

i can't believe people actually do this. it's awful. how is the woman ever supposed to feel pleasure if your cutting half of her vagina out of her crotch? disturbing.

There is a huge practical difference, but little moral difference. They are both BS and should be illegal without consent.

That's an opinion.

The moral difference as I see it is that male circumcision has been traditionaly performed as a religious rite, meant to affirm the male child's membership in a particular religious community..

Female circumcision has been used mainly as a means of subjugating women.

I agree that the practice of male circumcision is brutal and should be ended. However I also see a moral disctinction between male vs. female circumcision.

This is an antiquated practice that many are trying to end. It is used as a way to control women in many cultures.
www.fgmnetwork.org

Please get your friend to a doctor immediately and reiterating what some have already said, if she's under 18, her parents should be jailed for abuse.

Here's an excellent article explaining the process, laws and the lifelong harm on women who are brutalized in this fashion:

http://www.parkridgecenter.org/Page131.html

Well the problem is she is not 18 and she has brothers and sisters so she can and will not do anything that would result in her family be put in jail. But I do know that is the right thing to do but being in the situation she is in it is not possible.

I know and she knows that what happened to her is child abuse and assault on her but she is not going to breake up a family because of their sick culture. What I wanted to know is who did the procedure so I would notify someone that it is being taken place there but... I know dont know, first comes her.

I really dont want to turn this into a religion discussion so I wont say what her family's religion is. (After all the thing that has happened to her she doesn't even have belief anymore)

Reporting the family is not a solution at all. If that happens, her family, family name, culture and everything else and in between will be disrupted. So as much as I think it is the right thing to do, its not a solution.

What exactly is planned parenthood and is it anonymous or confidential?

I dont know exactly what was removed but I will ask her.

Again jailing the parents is not an option.




-Sorry about the long post, I replied to most of the posts and had some questions of my own.

-I am very thankful for each and everyone of you helping me and her about this situation, I greatly appretiate it.

planned parenthood is a place anyone can go to for birthcontrol or advice on sex type stuff or different examinations... and depending on the persons income it can be as cheap as free...

they have them all over the US

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/

plug in your zip code and theyll tell ya where the nearest is...

as for confidentiality... everything there is confidential... altho in this case they may be obligated to report the abuse...

but if she is worried about it being infected she definently needs to be checked out... surgical infections can be life threatening...

Okay. Mr. A, regardless of family name at this point, she needs to be healthy. It doesn't matter what religion her family is, what beliefs they have, what they think. Her health comes first. She needs to be checked, she needs the peace of mind, and it sounds like she's in fear of her family, more than having respect for them. What was done to her is WRONG. She was unable to keep it from happening to her, but she is perfectly able, and it's her right to know that she is healthy. Like JS said, infections like that can be life threatening. It doesn't matter where she gets checked, it's probably going to get reported. So hit the nearest Planned Parenthood. SHE needs to come first at this point.

It is not the family name, if the parents go to jail, who will take care of her? Her sister and her brothers?

I will be contacting Planned Parenthood. I also talked to my doctor about where she can go and he told me that would be the best place. Now to call and see what they say.

Thank You all.

I'll keep you both in my prayers.

So will I. It kills me to think of how she must be feeling right now. I'm sure she feels scared about a lot of things...

I believe that there is an actual legitimate form of female circumcision that involves trimming of the clitoral hood that a gynocologist can perform because of certain painful legions that can form from sebum and such. I think it's mentioned on clitoris.com or something, but that's not really the point of this discussion.

What they removed was the clit.

So it's okay with her when they do it to her sisters, huh? :mad:

I agree with the last posting, it's too late to stop it from happening to your friend, but what about younger siblings?

Her parents should be imprisoned and their children taken away from them - breaking up a family is a good thing when it is an abusive situation. I also agree that there is no religious motivation for these sort of acts of mutilation on women, it is a social and cultural custom - based on mysogony. We shouldnt be afraid to criticise other cultures just as much as we criticise our own when it is wrong, and evil customs must be destroyed whenever they are found.

If I was you I would report this to the police, and maybe beat the shit out of the father of the family - but Im afraid I'd only do that to make myself feel better.

1st: Already has happened to the sister.
2nd: This was all about religious motivation.

So her sister didn't try to protect her. Wonderful. What a nice family.

Please Mr. A, take her to a doctor. No person should be put through this, and I'm sure her troubles will be agravated when she is older and it finally hits that she has been terribly wronged. If you let her continue in this situation, she will probably never get out of that terrible religious world of hers, and this will happen all over again to her daughters.
This girl's well being is on your shoulders, or do you want to find out in a week from now that she died of an infection and you didn't do anything. It seems like she cannot help herself and you need to help her.


PS: people please stop comparing male cirmumcision with female genital mutilation, it is very irresponsible.

Dont assume she didn't help her sister and dont try to assume others people lifes. I posted here not for people to critisize her but to help her. I am thankful for you all that helped, I just dont want any assumptions of what she did and what she should do with the family. I will help her. By the way she did try to help her.

Thank you all again. You are all a wonderful people here, I really do appreciate all of your help.


I have one question, what are the things (Diseases, infections that could be caused by this) If anyone knows by any chance, or the symptoms of any of them. This incident happened 9 years ago so I would have though something would have happened, which I think it did before and she was treated for it but I don't know if it was caused by that and neither does she. So if it was happened this many years ago, would a possibilty of any kind of disease or infection be possible at this time?

I told her that she has to go to a doctor, the places that you guys mentioned and she doesn't want her family to get in any kind of trouble, neither do I.

it's a tough situation where you have dependants who don't want their parents/caregivers to get in trouble for this practice... but I cannot tolerate this practice in any situation without a valid medical reason (ie: a life threatening situation). Her parents are also victims of this abhorrent tradition if they believe it is necessary, but that does NOT excuse them for subjecting their daughters to this...

Does anyone know what religious belief necessitates FGM? Not just the religion, but the specific REASON it's done... are there any others than removing sexual pleasure and trying to prevent adultery (thought it doesn't do anything to prevent the husband from committing adultery, does it?)

They also do versions of it to increase tightness in the female. :mad:

It seriously doesn't matter what her family thinks or feels. It's abuse. It's wrong. People go to jail and get their children taken away for less than this.

i think the most helpful website on information about female circumcision was this one: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/fgm/fgm.htm

as to the question of whether she can still get sick from this, that website said this:
"A World Health Organization report on FGM says,
The immediate physical effects--acute infection, tetanus, bleeding of adjacent organs, shock resulting from violent pain, and hemorrhage--can even cause death. In fact, many such deaths have occurred and continue to occur as a result of this traditional practice. The lifelong physical and psychological debilities resulting from female genital mutilations are manifold: chronic pelvic infections, keloids, vulval abscesses, sterility, incontinence, depression, anxiety and even psychosis, sexual dysfunction and marital disharmony, and obstetric complications with risk to both the infant or fetus and the mother"

so yes, "chronic pelvic infections" means she can still get infections from this until the day she dies.

this is a crime. not reporting this is a crime. its like not reporting a rape or murder. if your best friend was being molested by his/her parents, you would report that, even if it meant breaking up the family. this is not a religious issue, its about abuse. if child molestation was a common practice of a certain religion, would you still leave it alone because you think it was about 'religious motivation?'

just because its hidden it under the curtain of religion doesn't make it right. its like saying the persecution of "witches," and then the torture and burning of victims alive to 'cleanse the soul,' by old christian authorities was ok because it was all religiously motivated.

Mr_A... I am saddened that your friend has undergone such a tragic abuse and fears retribution if she takes steps to assure her health is sound.

I find it highly unlikely that she would develop an infection / disease as a direct result nine years after this abuse (I refuse to call it a medical procedure) took place. However, that is not to say that she can't be susceptible to infections from various sources.

Is she experiencing any symptoms that give her cause to feel she may have some form of infection or disease? I don't see where you have mentioned if she is having symptoms or not but that is a crucial factor in what steps would be best for her to take.

I am having difficulty putting aside my personal feelings of the abuse she and her sister have suffered and what I think should take place with her parents. But I am doing my best to try to help in some form and keeping in mind that you have made it perfectly clear that she will do nothing to incriminate her parents.

So, perhaps you could at least call Planned Parenthood and inquire as to what you can do to help her? You CAN do that anonymously. Ask them point blank if she came in for an exam if they are required by law to report it to the authorities. They are your best option for confidentiality. If they say that they are required to report it, ask them where they would recommend she go to simply have a check up.

If it has been 9 years, she can't be very far from 18 and IF, I repeat IF she is NOT having any symptoms, then she may have to wait until she turns 18 to insure her parents undeserved safety.

I wish you and her the best and I will say a prayer for you both. And bravo to you for wanting to help her.

I just hope to God she doesn't go along with the arranged marriage.

1) FGM isn't part of any specific religion (Christians and Muslims do it, among others). It's a tradition thing.
2) There are reversal/correction surgeries but the scar tissue will never go away. This will affect her in the future if she wants to give birth.
3) She can get anonymous help from sliding scale health clinics.
4) (In response to something from above) It is completely possible she can get an infection after 9 yrs. I was told by an outreach person telling a personal story of a 17 year old who was hospitalized because she had blood poisoning from all the yrs. of build-up in her.
5) 6,000 females are circumsized each day.
6) Females aren't the only ones who undergo genital mutilation (re: intersexed babies who are reassigned genders by their doctors).

I understand everyone's outrage in this thread .. but you must realize - YOU ARE NOT IN THE CULTURE, AND THEREFORE PROBABLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR REASONS FOR DOING THIS.

I mean, sure, we've read all about it .. but who knows WHY her family is doing it. Judging these people "HORRIBLE" as based on their religious beliefs .. its just plain discrimination. I know these things aren't typical in North America, and are frowned upon. However, we do a lot of things in our own culture that would be frowned upon in other cultures/religions too. Before everyone flys off the wall (well, everyone already did, I'm a bit late) .. we must remember about the whole idea of religious tolerance.

I'm in no way condoning the practice at all - but we aren't in the situation, we know very little details about the true reasons for doing it, the culture, and the people. It may NOT be for the soul reason to "make sex bad so that a woman will stay faithful".

It's well known why this is done. Some of us have been aware of it for decades. You're being fairly condescending in assuming we're clueless in our outrage.

I can, and I do judge them for their actions.

I know, I don't mean to be condescending, I'm sorry you took it that way. However, I still think since we don't know the details, *SOME* of the people in this thread were pretty quick to judge.

I'm still saying its a disgusting practice, but .. yes. I don't know what I'm saying.

The details aren't terribly important, really. If someone proposed to chop off my penis so they could control me better, I'd be murderous. I'd wait until I didn't need them any more, then they'd just disappear. Why these women don't do that, I can't say.

Many people's only pleasure is sex. These women are being denied that. I can't really come up with something more evil than that. That was the most horrible part of Orwell's 1984 for me as well.

I agree.

For the most part I am a live-and-let-live kind of person, fairly tolerant of different cultures far and wide.

But child mutilation I will always speak out against, whether it be foot binding or genital mutilation.

doing something simply because it is tradition isn't sufficient reason to do it if it means injuring a child (and I'm not talking about tribal tattoos or other such rites of passage; genital mutilation, foot binding and the like debilitates these children for the rest of their lives). it upsets [understatement] me that some of these parents believe that their daughters won't be able to marry if they don't have this done, and it outrages me even further that this is still true to some extent.

Changing traditions is a gradual process, education is a good start. If it meant preventing those children from going through that physical and psychological trauma, I'd support separating them from their parents before they can be mutilated.

Precisely. If people want to mutilate themselves, from piercings to tatoos to cutting off body parts, that's their choice, but for someone to do it to them, and ESPECIALLY these particular parts, is truly obscene. And I don't use that word nearly as lightly as most.

Men who won't marry women w/o this should stay single and virginal until they're dead. To hell with them.

(edit) Think of it as evolution in action.

assinging a sex to an intersexed baby is not genital mutilation by any means.
you don't go in with a knife and start mix and matching ya know, hormone treatments along with plastic surgeries are used to give the child a gender based on usually which organs are most prevelant so that the child can grow up and lead a normal life.

Actually it is genital mutilation for many, and what's more is that it is incredibly emotionally harmful for many. Rather than explain though, please go here and read the linked articles as a start and get educated. Here , here and here are all good sites.

A bit from one of the sites:

That's all true, but it's a different topic from what we're talking about in this thread. And the attitude toward it is changing, as per the thread I started a few days ago here. Go there if you want to talk about gender assignment in unobvious situations.

We're talking about mutilation of girls here.

Hey no need to jump all over me because two previous posters brought up the subject, and one in a way that was clearly out of touch with reality.

I hope if someone says something grossly out of touch in a thread that happens to be OT that we don't have to ignore it and are permitted to respond with some resources listed in a quick post as I did. If someone puts stuff out there that isn't true they need to be called on it. It's really part of the natural evolution of a healthy conversation/productive thread. I'm glad you started the thread on the Time article and will link the references from my earlier post there and encourage any further conversation on gender re-assignment surgery to go there.

But if others are going to link the topic of gender mutilation to gender re-assignment surgery than I would say the topic is very germane to this conversation (thus I made my comments in my last post since it was linked by previous posters).

And now, returning you to our regularly scheduled thread...

Mr. A,

I definitely think the girl in this case should be hooked up with care for both her physical and mental needs she surely has at this point and kudos to you for trying to help. I can understand the poster's reluctance to rip her family apart over this by bringing in the law, but you have to wonder if she is still at risk for something further awful happening to her. If she was my friend I would want her out of that house pronto!

Sorry, didn't mean for that to come across that way.


Me too.