Is the hymen a myth?
 

I recently came across this in Wikipedia:

In late 2005, Monica Christiansson, former maternity ward nurse and Carola Eriksson, a PhD student at Umeå University announced that according to studies of medical literature and practical experience, the hymen should be considered a social and cultural myth, based on deeply rooted stereotypes of women's roles in sexual relations with men. Christiansson and Eriksson support their claims by pointing out that there are no accurate medical descriptions of what a hymen actually consists of.

I've found this to be true. I've never seen one.
Has anyone in this forum ever seen a living example of a Hymen?
Pictures and drawings don't count.

How much time to MATERNITY nurses spend looking between the legs of virgin girls?

I've experienced the PAIN having one's hymen being broken causes. It felt as if I were being torn in two. I've never experienced that during any other incident of sexual intercourse beyond that first time.

So my vote is that it isn't a myth.

The Hymen is not a myth. However there is not always a break in it during the loss of virginity. It can break long before then, especially if the girl was in gymnastics or other sports.

It's also used in child-molestation cases as proof of penetration, it's obviously medically legitimate enough for the letter of the law.

Yeah, not a "myth." There is of course the myth that all virgins have one....mine broke long before the first time I ever had any sort of penetration, thanks to a long day of horseback riding. My first time still hurt like hell at first, but there was no blood. I've also heard of women whose hymens "stretch" rather break.

quoted for truth! The first time I had sex I could FEEL it tear.

Not all women make it to intercourse while still having a hymen it can be broken by pretty much any form of physical activity (gymnastics, horse back riding, bicycles) but it is most definitely there.

Earlier this year I was helping out in Pediatrics (I promise there is a point here) and we had a little girl who kept getting bloody discharge and recurring infections of her genitals, it turns out that she was finding flowers and shoving them into her vagina cause she thought they were pretty and wanted to keep them ( The girl in question was 3 years old - I don't understand her reasoning or pretend to) she ended up having to get her hyman surgically removed because of the damage caused by the infections. Wasn't there during the surgery but I helped out with her aftercare - they generally don't put a myth down on a patients chart!

And No they didn't let her keep it in a jar

Has any girl here used a mirror to see theirs when they were younger? Or have any guys looked before having sex with a virgin for the first time?

I know it's a big deal in Muslim countries, and I've seen pictures of them in medical books at large university libraries. So, they most likely exist, but they aren't discussed too much in modern society.

I don't know if this is really in the Bible or what, I found it on the internet, but I've heard of this a few times. (Is it in Africa where the guy takes the bed sheet and runs around outside after the wedding night to prove that he broke her hymen?)

Yeah, I thought this exact same thing when I read that thing up there.

I heard on the tyra show, (I'm not advocating for any acuracy on their part) that it actually stretches apart which might cause the tearing feeling. I'm not a chick and seeing as all the girls universally describe it as a TEARING feeling, I dont think anyone should say differently.

So is it true?? Does it stretch or tear??

No, it's not in Africa.

Yep. Reminds me of the old Midol commercial, about period cramps. "It took xxx number of doctors xxx number of years to prove the pain is real...when all they had to do was ask me!"

Yes, I've seen a hymen. I have three daughters; I have changed many many diapers. It's there. You don't have to go looking for it. It's obvious like the nose on your face.

I don't believe it's a myth but I do wonder as to why I never remember breaking mine and I also didn't have any tearing sensation when I had sex for the first time (or blood for that matter). I do remember hearing doctors mention hymens in different ways on different occasions but mostly that was on tv. Never asked a doctor in person about it.

Is pain caused by vaginisimus?
 

Vaginisimus is an involuntary clamping shut of the vaginal opening. Women's health forums are discussing this issue in detail, which is a step forward for sex education.

I've experienced this first hand, and I can tell you that vaginisimus can prevent penetration. I'm certain that if I my lover and I were not communicating I would have hurt her.

I propose that much of the pain women report in early sex experiences is a result of vaginisimus, and not using any lubrication.

Honestly, it's a crime that we don't teach men how to respect women in sex-ed classes. The first time shouldn't be awful for 30% of women. It does not have to be.

If I'm wrong about the hymen, then why aren't women taught to look for it, and slowly stretch it in the weeks leading up to having sex the first time? Wouldn't that be fair to the woman? Why shouldn't 2 minutes with a mirror replace all that pain?

My reading in college libraries has revealed that doctors won't go on record about hymens in legal proceedings in the USA. In the last 20 years US medical practice has shifted to say "we really can't tell if a woman is a virgin." This too is a step forward for women's rights.

My belief is that statements about "horseback riding" "athletics" and "tampon use" are a way for the medical establishment to slowly and gracefully back out of the hymen story without admitting they were wrong.

Until the feminist movement of the late 60's and early 70's women rarely looked at vaginas, so it was the territory of the male doctor.

I read the post by the mother of young daughters. If very young females have hymens, what happens to them? If 18 year old women had hymens there would be millions of pictures here on the internet. There's a huge 'cult of virginity' alive and well on this planet.

I'm interested in the observations of men and women old enough to be having sexual relations.

/jealous.

It's not a myth.

Truth be told, I was blacked out when I lost my virginity, so I have no recollection of any of the sensations that occurred, pain or otherwise. However, the person I was having sex with told me that he had no idea I was a virgin (after I told him), so it seems that I didn't have any trouble.

The only time that I have had trouble with sex was when I started having it regularly (with ktsp--the only person other than blackout-guy that I've had sex with), and sometimes my muscles felt like they were clamping up... a bit like vaginisimus, and most likely due to all the fear/guilt/processing I was going through at the time, having pre-marital sex after a long and intense religious period of my life, and my mom was outraged that I was having sex before marriage (I was 24 years old!).

I used tampons (the first one of those was rough, very painful, but that's because no one was there to show me how to do it), and also rode bikes like crazy, masturbated, etc... so maybe all of that helped with the whole hymen thing. I guess I'll never know, nor do I think it matters very much at all. Then again, I know women who are virgins (30 years old) who will not use tampons at all, because they're afraid it will break their hymen and make them unmarriable. (They live in a different culture.) It's pretty messed up.

I dont think it is a myth. I heard from her that there was tear, pain and blood.

I used tampons and smaller toys down there prior to having sexual intercourse for the first time, but there was still horrendous pain involved once a penis came into the picture. I highly doubt all of that pain was caused by vaginisimus, given that I had (and have) no hangups about sex, and our subsequent experiences were much better. Theoretically, one could try to break their own hymen, but there is no guarantee of success, obviously. And the breaking of the hymen is different for all women--in some women, it isn't a painful experience.

And your idea that women rarely looked at other women's vaginas until the first wave of the feminist movement fails to take into account that until the medicalization of birthing in the developed world, most women were examined and cared for by midwives. It only became the territory of the male doctor in the Victorian era.

i don't remember having much pain when my hymen broke. it did not break when i lost my virginity to the first guy i had sex with, but when i had sex for the first time with my ex, i was bleeding from it. i just remember that it was particularly slower process to get in than any time after that first time... but no pain.

I can honestly state that I had no serious painful tearing sensation or bleeding when I lost my virginity. I was also very active as a child, hiking, biking, track, dance.. no idea where I could have torn it to be honest.

Not a myth, but I read somewhere that some girls are born without them.

I broke mine while hiking when I was 13. It hurt like hell, and I bleed.

When I had sex for the first time at 18, it didn't hurt at all and he had a 9 1/2 inch penis.

I am absolutely astounded that this post was the only intelligent and thinking post here! It seems as though changing the views on the hymen may be as difficult as convincing folks that the Bible and god are bogus! Well I guess in truth that it's not so surprising since without the bible we'd NEVER even have developed a word for the vagina's opening skin other than vagina lips (in addition to major or minor lips). The mere fact of the word hymen. It seems to me akin to the rare men with phimosis (non retracting forskin). We would never dare say that it is normal or indicates male virginity (in French "joseph").

Many parts of the body change throughout life, eyes, lips, breasts, labia major. Focusing on the possibility that the vaginas of infant girls are only partially open is so ludicrous. May you continue on talking about this to the masses!

Yes, there's a hymen.
Without a mirror or flashlight, I'm not exactly sure how people are seeing them since they're higher than a tampon can reach.
I think that virginity based on the presence of a hymen is an incredibly outdated way of determining if a female has been sexually active.
But, yes, the physical presence of a hymen in many women has been proven.
I did feel a lot of pain with intercourse the first time related to the stretching but it was a whole different ballgame when he hit, then pushed through mine.
I'm a believer.
But I think that medical professionals have done enough studies now to be able to determine that some girls are born without and that there are plenty of other ways for that particular piece of the body to get torn or "broken" than intercourse.

So you think it's up high in the vagina, most believers say it's actually outside! The point is there a very few studies. And the very few scientific studies that have been done whether on adults or on raped vs non raped children shows no difference in the vagina opening from pre to post sex. The point is that the vagina's entrance can be more or less uniform looking, THAT'S ALL... In the rare cases where a septate type entrance can be observed, it's a malformation and in no way informs us about normal women!!!

There are two reasons people feel pain on the first time. 1-lack of lubrication (meaning one of the 2 participants didn't do their job right) and 2- (if totally lubricated) then psychological: The sensation of something larger than a finger entering for the first time is surprising and thht is equated to pain.

The studies on raped little girls show that unless there is vagina damage per se, there is no distinct "membrane damage" since there is no "membrane". All there is a lumpy looking opening.

Dear you really need to start spending more time enjoying your vagina, and please don't misinforming your children that way.

Good thing I refuse to have any children, "dear".
And my pain the first time was pain. Same as my cramps are pain. Same as my paps cause me pain.
If I am misinformed than that's that. At my first gyno appointment, my MD swbbed me for my pap and I asked her where the hymen was because I was curious. She used a q-tip and poked up inside my vaginal opening that felt quite a bit further that you are describing and said "there." So, I believed my doctor.
And the first time I had intercourse, I bled... not from the opening of my vagina, from inside.
So I went with that. Oh well. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll do more research before speaking.
My vagina and I get along quite well and we both play well with others, but thanks for your input.

No, but the clitoris is definitely a myth.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29...heClitoris.jpg

oh really filth?

Did you mean this?
http://sp9.fotologs.net/photo/25/22/...09422795_f.jpg

I think Hyman lived in Cuba.

For reasons beyond the scope of this discussion, I had to do some research at college on the child sex industry. And at the university library, there is a book with medical pictures in it that would get someone arrested for a long time if they got posted on the internet. They aren't sexual in nature (but I'm sure the decency police wouldn't like them), but they do show upclose pictures of what normal hymens look like, and what they look like after sex/abuse/sports/accidents from birth through adulthood. All girls are different, and their hymens do change over time as well. And to answer the questions about where it is, it's located right at the same level as the urethra opening. It covers the opening of the vagina, but is behind the labia by 1/4" to 1/2".

So, the truth is out there, do some research at your local state university library.

Absolutely not a myth. Years ago, I tried to have intercourse with a girlfriend on several occasions, but could not achieve penetration. The pain she was experiencing kept me from pushing any harder. It definitely was not from lack of lubrication, and we had some great oral sex during that time. But it was frustrating for both of us. I was in college then, and it was time to go home for the summer. We agreed that she would see her doctor over the summer and have him/her render a medical solution to our dilemna. Unfortunately, we never got together after that summer (until 15 years later - but that's another story), so I don't know how she ended up solving the problem.

I have read that some women are born without one?

I don't even recall breaking mine or feeling pain. If I had one, it must of happened before I had sex.

They can be born without a typical shaped one, or it might have a different sized opening.

And past puberty, it is supposed to get thinner.

I have a friend who had her hymen surgically removed. She could not have sex because her's was too thick and could not be broken. She suffered severe pain every time she tried intercourse.

The hymen is real.

I don't think the condescension was necessary. You say that you there are very little studies, but reject her first hand information.
It'd be like saying, "there's no frenulum on the penis" to someone who has one.

One of the too few reasonable voices I've heard on this topic, I tried rectifying the situation on English Wikipedia but ran out of time and patience with religious folk.

I see tnt666 so one can only be reasonable if they agree with you - interesting viewpoint.

The reason that doctors will not go on record and say that a woman / girl is a virgin depending on the presence of a hymen is because they can be torn earlier in life - so she could be a virgin but not have a hymen or yes you can be born without one (approximately 10%) strangely it's about the same percentage of women who are born without a G-spot.

Here are a few internet sources for you.

The Anatomy of the Hymen

Hymen repair on the Arabic Internet

The Psychology of the Hymen

The Appearance of the Hymen in Newborn Girls

Healthy Strokes
Not alot of Info but illustrations of the different types of hymen

The Mysterious Hymen Revealed

Some of them are abstracts I know - sorry about that, as a hospital employee I have subscriptions paid for but alot of them won't allow for download and the Hospital IT crowd checks IP addresses - I'll check at work or the libraries and see if I can find them as a hard copy

As for why the Hymen isn't broken - in alot of Asian countries sex toys are actually illegal (Indonesia and Japan for example) so the women in those countries are unable to break their own, those in Muslim countries will not because if they do then they are un-able to be married, it's a matter of their and their families honour that the hymen is intact on their marriage night.

In Western countries alot of women do break their own hymens. Unfortunately that might not occur to a girl until after it has been broken via phsyical activity or in the case of sexual abuse isn't an option.

Well, for sure we shouldn't include your post among the intelligent and thinking ones.

:rolleyes:

Scientific vs religious claims
 

The first point here is, the vagina, developmentally speaking, is accomplished in two separate acts. The upper and the lower vagina. The upper vagina cells are differenciated at an earlier stage than the lower vagina. The cells of the lower vagina have usually completely positioned themselves by birth but sometimes not. When a baby is born, if the lower vaginal cells (which are located at the skin's surface) have not yet positioned themselves, the vagina appears to not be completely openable. But this is only a temporary matter, in the first years of life, those lower vaginal cells reach their normal developmental end as the vaginal wall. This developmental process is available to anyone who finds a good library and actually reads some developmental anatomy books instead of miscellaneous articles found on the internet.

Second point here, 90% of internet chatter about the 'hymen' is regarding virginity at MARRIAGE. Mostly, marriages occur after 18 years of age, but lets be generous and allow for cultural differences and consider that marriages in certain countries happens to girls as young as 12. That should account for 99% of Earths marriages.

Valid scientific developmental anatomy texts discuss incomplete vaginal development, often referred to as 'hymen' for the periods before birth, neonatal, infant, and very young girls.

Texts revolving around nearly pubescent girls and post pubescent girls and young adults are completely muddled in religious political correctness, so as not to chock religious folks (95% of earthlings). But mostly all texts scientific texts for young ladies says that virginity CAN NOT BE DETERMINED. This is the polite way of not chocking religious folks by saying "well yes, your daughters' hymen is not 'perfect' but we can't be sure either way about rape". If only one of two studies concluded this, there would be matter for discussion of hymens at this age. BUT ALL ARTICLES FOR THESE LATER AGES ARE INCONCLUSIVE (well except in very rare cases of 'imperforate hymen' which as rare as male phimosis). That means that scientifically, nothing can EVER be known about a lady's virginity, so if the vaginal opening is never indicative of anything, BECAUSE IT IS NORMAL FOR A VAGINA TO BE READY FOR PENETRATION, it's its normal developmental course it is because there is simply no point in trying to determine particular configurations, because the vaginal opening is simply a mushy messy opening. Assigning set configurations to a vaginal opening is as pointless as assigning set configurations to the appearance of a frogs' cloaca!

So if people insist on using the word 'hymen' for the incompletely developed vaginal wall cells sometimes apparent at birth, that's one thing I can live with.

But PLEASE DISCONTINUE use of the word 'hymen' for females past 7 years old. By this age, the vagina is open, the shape simply does not matter. Females past childhood with 'crecents' are simply a little behind on the normal developmental process. IT IS NOT THE NORM.

(PS I know you're all going to cry 'references' but extremely slow internet and old computer and traveling requirements don't enable me to carry around reference sheets in my suitcase for strangers I meet on the internet. If I was able to find this in an average library you can too. All I can tell you for this is get OFF the internet and stay away from religious articles, go to the library, as I've done, and actually read books on FETAL DEVELOPMENT. And also take notice of the scant mention of the word 'hymen' in anatomy books.)

The concept of the hymens in females of marrying age is a passé religious concept, same as when the Earth stopped being flat, same as when genetics demonstrated that female animals in nature are not monogamous, that babies are often from different male progenitors, no matter the species.