"I had sex with my brother but I don't feel guilty"
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Is there anything psychologically damaging about such a relationship? Is it indicative of preexisting problems, or just an uncommon but healthy form of adolescent socializing? I guess I'm looking for a reason to describe this as wrong or justify making it illegal, but I can't find anything other than the ick factor. Sure, there's a chance that a child could be born with health problems, but is that any more severe than a child with two unrelated parents who both carry a recessive disease-causing allele? If incest is considered wrong for the damage it can do to the child, isn't it also necessary to condemn otherwise unrelated people who share certain alleles from having sex? Should we ban or condemn all breeding by people who carry certain genes that result in severe illness? If not, is there really anything wrong with incest? |
That was a very interesting article. I can see what you're saying inBOIL, about love being love, no matter the face. Their encounters, though seemingly nonchalant to her, are quite obviously causing her some serious social and emotional strife at this point in her life.
I think she says it best when she says, "going on to say that she was sure that many people experimented sexually with them as they grew up and then simply grew out of it. She said it was like practising your social skills on your family and so long as it was mutual, she couldn't see the harm". The point being that perhaps it is normal to be curious but simply uncool to continue with it. She never grew out of it. And it's not so much the ick factor that gets me, which is certainly there; it's more that it seems she is psychologically damaged. I don't have much to add as I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to psychology but this has to do something to you. |
I guess her point is that all the strife this is causing her is society's fault for stigmatizing it rather that an actual problem.
To me however, it does seem as though she's been holding back all her life, limiting her own experiences and exposure to the safe 'nest' where there are people that know each other intimately and share a good deal of their background. If not damaged, she does seem to lack some social development. As for the fact of it seeming so right... I think the thrill of doing something you're not supposed to, coupled with the fact that you're having sex would take a very special person to describe as wrong. However, I'd like to see them both take responsibility if ever she had gotten pregnant... |
the mother: so who's the father?
Inboil - for a second i thought that you had sex with your brother and you didnt feel guilty |
I'm all for spurning tradition, pushing the limits and redefining sexuality but I don't buy this for a second. Her perspective is far from objective and the fact that they managed to break it off without an accidental pregnancy doesn't make it a-okay.
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Just like Juno, kids aren't that smart. That's the reason why they're children. I'd be more than willing to believe or at least open up to an honest discussion on the subject but this woman is either lying or telling half of the truth. |
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this is a dilemma of sorts, since the ideas are about freedom and sexuality. where does the lines cross, where is it really truly unacceptable and why? I recently worked on one section of the family tree, and well the branches rejoin after 2 generations. Is that far enough? Looks creepy, sounds creepy, but maybe it's not creepy. Brothers and sisters tho.... creepy. |
I didn't experience the "ick" feeling you folks are talking about as I read the article.
I don't know what that says about me, but there we go. |
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This reminds me of a Drive-By Truckers song (one of my favorite bands)... see note at the bottom, as it's a true story. Quote:
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Hey, this is really similar to a story I read on Literotica...
As taboo as society makes incest sound, its a huge fantasy for a lot of people. If you look on the "most popular" section on Literotica, its easily the hottest category. Honestly, I don't think people are hot for their sisters so much as they are intrigued by the different relationship dynamic and the forbidden nature of the act. |
Experimentation that went way too far; creepy to say the least.
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Honestly I don't see what's wrong with it.
I know that it fucks up the genetics, but seriously. It's a cultural taboo that's pretty meaningless IMO. I've read some incest erotica, not really my thing. Nor would I ever want to have it happen in my life (ewwwwwwwwww xD). But if it's good for TWO other people, then good for them =). Unconsensual is obviously another story. |
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Seriously, though. I think Halx is right. It's more the taboo nature of the act that titilates us than the actual act itself. But, I have no siblings, so I have nothing to base a comparison on. |
I my mind, all consensual romantic relationships are okay, which means everything but children, animals, and rape. Are they for me? No, but who am I to define love?
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I've been trying to think of a reply for this...
I actually have no opinion. How odd. |
Honestly for me it's a little of both. One, she's not attractive to me, and two, society has made me a bit sketched out about the whole idea. If she was hot (to me) and society didn't ingrain this in me, would the thought have crossed my mind? Possibly, I can't say. But I will reiterate that I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it. Even with a cross-generation incest, so long as the younger is above the age of consent when the (that sort of) relationship -begins-. Otherwise it's taking advantage, in my mind.
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I think the main reason we feel that it's so wrong is because it was put into the bible and then drilled into society. Don't forget that actually, people were having sex with their family members for thousands of years. Cousins, brothers, sisters. To breed outside the family meant mixing blood, and the rich folks just didn't want to share their sacred genes. (; Mind you, I would never have sex with my brother or sister. And, I'm not sure how my initial reaction would be if I found out someone was sleeping with THEIR brother or sister. In the long run, though, I honestly don't see it as a big deal. |
this reminds me of the movie "The Dreamers". I have some mixed feelings about incestual relationships. I suppose if the two consent and don't feel abused or taken advantage of at all, then it shouldn't be such a big stigmatized deal BUT these are two siblings. It can never be a healthy relationship because of that. You limit your life and other relationships that way, IMO. Just like the two from The Dreamers.
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Strange...I just (re)read a book about nearly-incestual siblings, and one of my favorite books deals with brother/sister incest (although at the time it was committed, the two were unaware they were related.) One of the characters said something along the lines of what a few people here have said, that society defines it as wrong, not necessarily individuals, and it's just sort of ingrained into our minds.
*shrug* I wouldn't do it. I don't know anyone who has. But it doesn't seem all that shocking to me. |
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it's a fantasy because it's taboo. people used to get wildly turned on at the sight of a girl's ankle, because it was taboo for a girl to expose it. It's kind of interesting that people rail against puritanism, yet it is puritanism that makes what we find sexy, sexy. If everyone ran around all day buck naked, then the sight of a naked girl wouldn't be nearly as arousing to guys - -no more arousing than the sight of a clothed attractive girl is to you now. |
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There's a difference between finding it socially frowned upon/illegal to run about naked and having it be socially taboo to have incest with someone. I agree that it's a good thing that we don't all run around naked, and that there is a time and a place for sexy things so that they remain sexy.
But forbidding something, while it may increase the appeal of it, is incredibly damaging to those that actually do partake if they are caught (or even if they aren't!) |
Inbreeding is bad, 100% not acceptible.
Siblings exploring sexuality together is good and sometimes can be safer than with strangers. It could kissing, groping, playing each other etc. I am personally fine with kids in late teen age exploring sexuality with some one in family who are experienced in sex (than with strangers, than with today friends dont know what tomorrow!!!). But doing anything with fear of being caught, despised, ashamed, humiliated, punished by everyone around you in a society where we live is CHAOS. It can rip everyone in the family with pain. It doesnt matter whether it is wrong or right. Even if you are strong today and can stand it all, no one knows whether you can stand so for ever! Quote:
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I was born with a pretty severe cardiovascular deformation that was life threatening. When I was 18 or 19, I got tested and found out that there was a chance that I could pass along the risk for such a deformation to my biological children (somewhere around 5%, if I remember correctly). Should I be prevented from having children? |
On the other hand, inbred children have a distinct advantage when swimming.
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Inbreeding can cause extinction in few generations My point is a conduct based on scietific reasoning is easy to understand and acceptible for me. Quote:
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100% wrong.
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I couldn't see this for myself, but in the manner of the article there was complete consent. I don't see a huge deal to be honest.
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Science dictates that the people with the best genes pair up and create the best children available, but reproduction in humans is a lot more complicated than that. Emotional and intellectual attraction often contradicts the innate reproductive mandates. |
The British Royal family are the wealthiest land owners in the entire world...
It can't be all bad. |
I came into this thread wanting some TFP members fucking their brothers. THE PUBLIC DEMANDS IT
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This request still stand if it's m/m?
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Not a TFP member, but she is fucking a brother:The Ink is Black, The Page is White (NSFW, obviously)
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Questions like this are actually something I think about a lot, being in the midst of dealing with many classes on ethics and moral philosophy.
On the one hand, my first reaction is to note that-- at least for Jews-- incest is prohibited by the Torah, and thus should not be done. On the other hand, I also have long thought it very healthy that religion does not control what is and is not permissible in a secular society. As an American, my feeling is, as long as it's two consenting adults, and no one is physically harmed, people ought to be free to engage in whatever kind of sexual behavior they please. It's a free country. Personally, it seems to me that incestuous relationships would inevitably be prone to causing psychoemotional confusion and self/other boundary problems, among other ill effects; but then again, people seem to cheerfully engage in all kinds of sexual behavior that seems unhealthy to me, and appear no worse for it, so what do I know? Probably best not to judge, I expect. BTW, a friend of mine who's an OB/GYN with a specialty in reproductive assistance therapies let me know that, in her opinion, the genetic issue is a non-starter, since a single close genetic match is unlikely to result in severe abnormalities. Generally, severe abnormalities as a result of incest occur only after prolonged inbreeding, such as among the royal houses of Europe, or even more so, among the royal houses of the Ancient Near East. So she says, at any rate. Not, I add, that it makes me any more comfortable with the idea. But nonetheless, it does make me feel all the more strongly that this probably should be a "live and let live" issue. |
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Yeah, the whole genetic deformities thing is a bit of a joke. In most cases, genetic defects are actually the result of a combination of different genes, rather than a single one. While sibling love can potentially lead to a greater expression of recessive traits, the odds of any significant genetically-induced health problems in a first generation inbred baby are not significantly higher than in the general population. On top of that, the risk decreases at an exponential rate as we move to family members who are farther apart, since they introduce greater genetic diversity.
Food for thought: if you go back far enough, we're all inbred. I do not feel in any way attracted to either of my sisters. None of my cousins do anything for me either. However, if two people are old enough to make this decision competently and decide that this is what they want to do, I have no problem with it. Given the world we live in today, fucking your sister is not the worst thing you could do by any means. |
I like how this is an ick factor for a brother and sister to be having a sexual relationship and yet men always love to see hot twins doing lesbian acts on one another...hmmm!
I didn't get the ick factor either from reading this article until I thought of my own relationship with my brother. But then as I thought of the differences in her story and mine hers seemed innocent and just confused I guess. She worded her story very well so that it didn't invoke the ick factor other than the fact that its incestual. I agree that when its an older family member forcing a younger and naive family member to do something its horrible. But how do you tell this particular woman, who was obviously not forced, its wrong other than the fact that society tells us its wrong and the little hairs on the back of our necks stand up as warning flags? Hope I don't have nightmares tonight, guess I should stop reading these kinds of things. |
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I often had to explain that to anthro 101 students, since it's a way of dealing with culture shock/stress and realizing that the reaction is a cultural one rather than a moral one. They usually freak out a bit when we have a unit on first-cousin marriage as a preferred pattern in some societies, and they have to come down from that American cultural revulsion for such things before we can discuss the issue academically. It's one of the fun things about teaching anthropology. :D |
In my society first-cousin marriage is prefered. My elders comment that it is mainly to keep family properties intact and prevent defragmentation.
But there is a twist. You can marry your maternal uncle's son/daughter, or a paternal aunt's son/daughter. Affair / Marriage with your maternal aunt's (or) paternal uncle's son/daugther is treated as INCEST! In my village one such couple who eloped were caught/beaten/separated and forcily married to two different people. I met the girl last time I went to the village. Her husband is a nice guy, I still felt very sorry for her. |
Where do you live again?
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Also a girl can be married to her maternal uncle.
But paternal uncle is treated like FATHER! And boys cant even imagine marrying thier paternal aunts, may be due to age difference. But there is heavy teasing thou. -----Added 24/9/2008 at 05 : 56 : 10----- Quote:
I went so much in to detail because of the word anthropology in our abaya's post |
Curiousbear, that's quite interesting, thanks for the information.
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My 4 siblings and I were all adopted at birth. I still could not see having this kind of relationship with my brother.
I once had a cousin try to convince me we could have sex, because we were not really related. There was no way I was going there. |
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Can I ask what is the significance of the word 'Cross' in the 'Preferred cross-cousin marriage'? You know my aunt is mad at me (and our family) that I dint marry her daughter! EDIT: Also the 101 may teach me several other facts too... |
curiousbear - when you say south india, are you talking about Kerala?
all my workers are indian, mostly from Kerala. interesting concepts you put forward though. i knew it happened, but not to that detail. |
Kerala is small part of South India. There are other states: Karnataka, TN and Andra. Kerala is a beautiful place.
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Well...this has taken a rather useful little turn. Good.
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I firmly believe that what happens between consenting adults is their business & none of mine. However, sexual relations between siblings, even if it's NOMB, crosses the line. |
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So here you go, the permission for opposite gender to mate, is at every other generation! It is weird but that is the logic. Now the repetitive inbreeding is prevented, but the family blood line is kept close. So do the properties (assets). Well I will try to do an article on this with all I know and can find and send it to you... Personally, I did not want to marry any one from my community. When I was in high school I thought I will marry some one from an other country, religion or state. I thought that will be interesting and exploratory. I liked European girls, Russians, and Whites. To be total frank some one tall, fair, strong, independent. I had liking (not preference) on particular type of nose, hair, and even private parts). But I never was sure whether they will like me. But at 25, I met my girl, got committed. She was from neighboring state, speaks different language, different community, different customs etc. But not really that different. |
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[QUOTE=abaya;2531746] Do you mean that you had a fictive "sister" as well? /QUOTE]
Yes I do. I dont know how one would really feel for a sister because I dont have a biological sister. I dont have any feeling for my cousin-sisters (parallel cousins). But this girl is from a different place, community, family. We just fell in love that way. I dont think her husband completely understands it. But my wife has same feelings that one will have for a sister-in-law!! She has a son now. She is beautiful, highly committed. But she doesnt like to be controlled and will retaliate with rudeness and arrogance. |
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I think Eugenics is intellectual natural selection! That is what is natural selection for beings with five senses could be close to Eugenics for beings with sixth sense.
It certainly is NOT natural in animal sense. But in human sense I think it is still natural. I consider stonage, metalage and modern age as just extensions of evolution itself. Human dont have to get extra perceptions and organs to continue the evolution... Rather the evolution gets very scientific! Without all these developments the human race will be extinct in the centuries to come But repetitive inbreeding will be problem. I had seen dogs, birds going through that in my own eyes. generation after generation they start losing thier senses one by one. fur is lost, then eye sight... and after 10+ generations they become infertile (not even interest in breeding). Example: Captive Budgies, A dog breed called Rajapalayam suffers this. I saw it in person. |
When I read your story, I was compelled by the sincerity in your narration. I'm a very young biology student, and at 20, I have little to no life experience, especially in such complex life experiences as incest and sex. And, as a bio major and anthro minor, I feel very strongly against incest because of the genetic problems that arise (although you were very good about contraception). But when I read this, I forgot about all that, and honestly, I felt like you had a genuine romance with Daniel. There was no abuse, you both were well aware of the consequences, and you reached an emotional and physical completeness that is very difficult to find with a lover in these times. I kind of felt bad that you didn't take him up on his alternative. Do you ever wonder what it would be like if you and Daniel were together? You seem to miss him.
I think you made a difficult decision, and an extraordinary one at that. I guess I'm just a romantic who sort of saw you and your brother together, regardless of the incest. I recently met my second cousin, whom I had heard a lot about growing up. Jack was the family golden boy, handsome, smart, successful, talented, and athletic. Jack is a year older than me, and although we both heard about each other growing up, we didn't meet until his first cousin's wedding almost two years ago. I was eighteen and he was nineteen. And there was a pretty strong sexual undertone. I know that this sort of thing tends to happen among relatives who had never met, but I kept telling myself not to feel that way about him. It got confusing because both our mothers were joking about how if we hadn't been related, we would have been perfect for each other. I tried to avoid him for the rest of my trip, but every time I wanted to leave the room, he would be right there. Nothing sexual happened, but the tension was difficult to endure. You are lucky to have had Daniel, and if I were in your place, I would not have any regrets except of the fact that I would not be able to show my love for him in public, that it would have to be clandestine and secret. Are there any times you wish you had him to yourself? Is he completely faithful to his wife, or are there times he wants you back? I know I should say it's twisted, but it sounded a little beautiful to me. |
I will give three arguments in favour of prohibition
1 - Society DOES have the right to enforce certain norms of behaviour. We, for example, prohibit drug use when it harms no one but the person taking drugs. I wonder people would feel the same level of ambivalence if the narrator of this story was talking about a consensual relationship betwene a father and a daughter? And that isnt a facile question, and I'd ask you to really think about it... because if brother/sister relations are ok, why arent mother/son and father/daughter? 2 - Simply, it IS more likely that children born of closely related parents will suffer serious genetic problems. In some parts of the Pakistani/British community marriage amongst first cousins is quite common - and there is very clear evidence of the vastly increased incidence of serious problems with children in such cases. These people are making choices that someone else may well have to suffer for. This point was dismissed very easily by the person posting the article, it ought not to be 3 - Abuse. Now, I must say that it is possible to have a relationship between closely related people that is genuinely consensual. But I would put it to you that the vast number of incestual sexual relationships which exist in the world involve either physical abuse or abuse of familial position. We have to make laws some how, we have to draw a line Take the age of consent. In the UK it is 16. If a girl who is 16 years and 10 days has consensual sex with her boyfriend who is 15 and 330 days... I think very few people consider her to be a paedophile or an abuser. But we have to draw a line somewhere We draw a line at incest because very often it is also abuse, either emotion or in some cases something like rape |
Whats the big deal So what if your brother rides you every once in a while as long as its great sex and both of you are ok with it go for it Its not hurting anyone
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I can be as freaky as anyone but incest is seriously fucked up.
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I"ve done some off the wall weird things.... But I'm not sure... about this. Too Each his own. I would say. ??? lost for a reply... sorry.
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Consenting Adults = none of my business.
Of course, my sisters had cooties. Ewwww |
I think it is wrong, that simple. There are somethings that just should not be done, even if consented to.
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Alright. Tried to refrain from commenting, but does anyone feel like the author is a little naive? "All I had to do was say no, and my brother would not have married her." Yea. Right. And the brother would have probably resented her for a long time, before ultimately saying, "screw this" and marrying his fiance anyway.
I get the impression that the older brother is a bit of a ladies man, and took advantage of the naiveté of his younger sister--precisely why incest is outlawed in many states. Thoughts? |
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However the converse is also true. Two consenting adults, defined as aware of their choices, can have a good and lasting experience with another this way. Now being aware of that choice is another story. I would speculate that in our culture we are not educated about sex to any degree. It could be because our educators are uninformed. The interpersonal energy exchanges from sex are quite powerful. They do leave a lasting impression and condition a person in very particular ways. My thoughts are that we need to become better informed so that good and healthy choices are possible. John |
Not to change the subject but it still involves incest, I've read that Mother-Son incest is fairly common (& legal) in Japan. Supposedly the Mother helps the son out sexually to keep his mind on his education.
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