the 26 year old virgin
 

So i'm not 40, but here's the deal...

When i was younger, throughout high school, i was very religious, very set on "waiting until i was married." I dated a girl for a year and a half who felt the same way, it was an awesome relationship, no complaints, no regrets. When i went to college (we broke up) i dated girls here and there, but nothing ever seemed to stick more than a couple months. During this time i expanded my ideas and my beliefs to a much more broad, big-picture faith instead of being so focused on "obeying the rules" of christianity. However, despite this change, i still told myself that i wasn't going to "give it up" to just anyone, and since i hadn't had a serious relationship since high school, it wasn't really ever something i had to come to a decision on.

After 6 years of college i moved, got a job, and for the past year and a half (basically) i had been dating a pretty religious girl who is set on not having sex until she's married. Once again, sex wasn't something i had to make a decision on because it just wasn't going to happen (and i didn't have a problem with that).

WELL... after a bout with singleness, i've been dating this new girl for a month or so, and sex is now something i have to make a decision on. She has pretty much said that she needs to have sex in a relationship as part of feeling emotionally committed to me. I've thought, debated, tried praying (but i unfortunately have too much religious structure in my head that equates talking to God with "just keep your pants on") and i know that i don't feel like i need to wait until i'm married anymore. But now i don't know WHEN. Every time i think about actually having sex i get this feeling of "i've waited so damn long, am i just going to give it away so easily now?" No matter how i cut it, i can't get that out of my head.

I'm obviously not going to decide whether or not to sleep with a girl based on what a bunch of strangers on the internet say, but as a product of our modern society i am open to input from the peanut gallery, especially anyone with similar experience. thanks! :thumbsup:

well... you could compare the answers you get here to the conversation that came from this thread last year.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ghlight=virgin

Of course.... you're slightly different since you're asking this at 26

If you've waited that much and you're convinced that remain a virging is what matters most to you, then don't do it and don't let her pressure you into it. She has to understand that not having sex is a big deal to you, and if she doesn't respect that, well, there will be someone else that will respect and appreciate it.

Man, that last paragraph really makes me want to help you.

You've obviously built this up for quite some time which pretty much guarantees that the sex (whenever it happens) will be terrible.

It's really just a matter of whether you'd rather leave her underwhelmed now or later.

sorry, didn't mean offense by it, just intended to curb the inevitable responses of "no one can tell you when you're ready except you" or whatever. i already know that.

i asy good on you and stick yo your guns.

if you're not sure of yourself and the reasons why you're doing it, then shes got to respect that.

i mean youve known her for a month. you STILL dont know this girl. dont give something thats means a lot to you to someone you barely know.

besides..if you stress about it like you are now, you'll probably end up with a realllly bad experience or worse the anxiety would kill your erection.

Well, I think there are two main issues. You need to decide whether you want to wait until marriage. If you do, then tell the girl, and I guess she'll break up with you. I can't tell you if you're right or wrong, that's for you to decide.

If you decide you want to do it with her, you'll need to prepare yourself for whatever guilt or other issues you might have. It sounds to me like you've built sex up into a really stressful thing for you. Whatever you decide, you need to relax. :-)

I am going to second Dlish on this one. You really can't know someone after only a month. I would say since you have waited this long share it with someone who you really know and care about. With someone like who you are with now she is going to disappointed no matter what, seeing as you have never done it before. Depending on what type of person she is, even knowing you are a virgin, bad sex could be the dealbreaker.

Now people don't get mad at me for saying that, but I have seen it in the past and it does happen. Find someone who will respect you enough to wait until you are ready to do it for you, otherwise all parties involved will feel robbed.

God bless you for waiting!

Only you can set your limits. I am a big fan of rules and limits for a lot of stuff in the beginning stages of dating, (when you get serious stuff changes). Anyway sounds like you had a limit of "Waiting to have sex until I am married" but then you decided to be more liberal, but how liberal. You didn't set up a new limit, that is why you are confused now. I would recommend waiting for love, and how do you know you are in love, trust me you'll know. Or you can wait until your entire being cries out for a girl and just kissing her sets your loins aflame. But the bottom line is set a limit and stick to it, and don't think about the current girl while you are setting that limit. Then after you have committed to it, tell her what it is. If you get there with her great, if not great too-because that means you are now free to find the right girl for you.

IMO once you have given it up, it becomes harder to say no in the future. So to avoid sleeping around a lot, wait to sleep with the one you really want.

BTW, if you had to ask on this post, then she is not the right girl or at least not yet. If she doesn't like that than she can go find someone else, plenty of girls would love to be with a man with convictions who values sex as an expression of love and unity rather than just a physical act.

FYI my hubby was a virgin when we hooked up and I was, and still am, a sex addict, not like diagnosed or anything. Anyway, we had a strong connection that I can't fully describe, but we had intimacy before we had sex. We waited until he felt ready and we felt like we were truly in love. I don't ever regret waiting for him, and I never pressured him. There are times I wish I could say he was the only guy I had been with since he can say I was the only girl he'd been with, but by in large I don't think about it, I just enjoy what I got, a great man. We have been together 13 years!

ok, I think you ned to forget how long you've waited or built it up. What you need to ask yourself is, why is it so important to me to wait? Is it so sacred to me that I have to lose my virginity in a "good" way?

The fact is there is no good way. It just happens. It really isn't all that. It's a step, but only one among many others you take in life. Life is no beautiful fairytale. Sex is just sex. You will likely realize that when you actually go for it.

It seems to me that the only reason you're waiting now, is because you've waited and feel foolish to throw away all that "waiting" you did previously.

I say go for it. You don't have to set a time for it. When the feeling is right, just follow through with what you feel like doing. Should be simple enough.

If you can find a good reason to keep waiting, by all means go ahead and wait until you're with someone you think will value that. If not...start enjoying yourself. Life is too short to just sit and wait.

Having no belief in god, nor no morals to speak of, I have to question your motivation to remain a virgin. To me, this sounds like the structure of religion is slowly breaking down for you and you're comforted in knowing that there is still one definite thing that you can control: your virginity. To me, life isn't measured by my devotion to anything, nor my restraint. In fact, its quite the opposite. Life, to me, is about what you do with it and all the stories you can tell. Staying a virgin represents staying inside your bedroom and locking the door. There's a lot of adventure out there to be had...

At the risk of offending a lot of religious people here, maybe you should dump your religion. It seems to be preventing you from developing into a normal, healthy human being capable of enjoying life to the fullest.

Halx also had some good points in his post. However, he was incorrect in one major area: him having no morals. You don't need religion to know what's right and wrong. At the very least, you simply need to be a good person.

Then again, maybe he knows himself better than we think considering his avatar is of a catholic high school girl in uniform. :D

I agree with the above two posters. If the big Man in the sky really exists, I don't think he's terribly concerned about your virginity. I'd like to believe that if he does exist, He cares more about you being a good person, treating fellow humans with respect and dignity, and leaving His creation better than you left it.

I just envision the Pearly Gates, everyone standing around waiting to get in.. and St. Peter laughing at every single person who waited until marriage to have sex. "Haha, you actually followed that rule? That shit was made up in the first century!" "You should've been more worried about what kind of person you were being to others!"

You're waiting for no reason to be blunt. The first time is probably going to be a disaster. There is no magical romance with candles and love music going on in the background as you slowly but seductively look into her eyes and start "making love." What will actually happen is you will try, screw up, laugh, get really messy and be embarrassed. Might as well get it over with!

"i've waited so damn long, am i just going to give it away so easily now? No matter how i cut it, i can't get that out of my head."

I wouldn't like it when somebody's pressuring me about stuff that mattered seriously to me.
Then again, if it doesn't really matter anymore, and you're just doubting because in that case all your waiting has been for nothing... Then get over yourself and do it, no sense in waiting some more just for the sake of waiting.

Lasereth says pretty much what I wanted to say, and I thought little_tippler summed it up nicely here:

It's kind of one of those things you've just got to do. You've built it up into this huge thing, and it isn't. The real key is to be with someone you're comfortable with. You want someone who is willing to screw up, laugh, get really messy, and laugh some more with you. I've been having sex for a while now, and for a while with the same partner, and we still have little accidents and oopsies during sex that make us laugh uncontrollably. You want to be with that person when the time comes--whoever that is. Love isn't necessarily necessary in this case--just a really good sense of humor.

Sorry this may help or not help....


Get fucking my friend. Run from your chair to the store, get some condoms and get nekked with this chick!!!!

I would wish you congrats for waiting this long but I am not a religious man so I think waiting until your mature enough to handle the potential outcome (baby anyone?) than what some book of fables tells you is commendable.

Let us know how it goes!!!

She needs sex to feel emotionally committed? Do cholicy babies rev her engines? Is this a woman thing?

My wife told she knew she loved me after the first time we had sex. Conversely, I wanted to have sex because I loved her.

And yes, the first time will be a disaster. I strongly recommend doggy style to start. There's almost no room for mistakes that way.

Just do it. Once you get into it you'll find out that sex isn't such a mystical, magical thing like you've convinced yourself it is. I don't remember the first time I did anything that I routinely do for fun (except the first time I shot a gun because people want to make a big deal about letting a new guy start with .44 magnum instead of something small,) and I doubt you'll really care about your first time after you've been with a few people.

cant believe that most people are telling him to get it over with.

most religious people or ex-religious people have hang ups about sex. it was always a taboo, and breaking down those barriers are hard to do.

this forum may be sexually uninhibited when it comes to sex, but people must understand that not everyone is like that here.

abaya is probably the best example of being an ex-religious person. where is she when you need her.

I think you have to weigh your options and decide what's important to you now.

Put aside how you were raised, think about what you believe and what you want. This is you making the decision. Not guilt, not a bunch of horny guys, not even a horny woman you lust for.

If you should decide to refrain from having sex until you're ready, she should be willing to respect your feelings if she's worth it. We don't know the scenario, she may just be looking for your "cherry".

And, just so ya know, I'm about the furthest from Christian as one can be. But I think you should both be on the same page so that no one gets hurt. ;)

wowsa! maybe dont wait that long... sounds painful! :eek:


I think others have said it as well or better then I can.

you dont seem to have much reason for waiting anymore... you need to decide if your going to wait and stick to it, or decide your not.
I think sex is part of a normal healthy relationship... and that it is unfortunate that sex is made out to be such a bad thing by religions...


you could always practice sensual stretching :lol:

I am sorry but with the title and post I read it as "give me a reason to have sex". No reason needed, do it if you want to or don't do it. He already clearly stated that regardless of our opinions he'll do what he wants.

So we are just posting our opinions and yes this is a very...very liberal board in general and thank god (haha) to that. Doubt your going to get too many other side of the fence views considering we are in the sexuality section!

I am ex-religious, and I know the thought process well. It's hard to go against a lifetime of brainwashing, but if you're still clinging to your hang ups, you won't be free of the the beliefs you discarded. I had a very unhealthy attitude toward sex for years after I ditched religion.

I see this as being like many advice threads: he knows what he wants to do and either consciously or subconsciously wants us to convince him that what he's thinking and feeling are right.

That is why i think he should do the old slap and tickle! :)



The funny thing is that I am currently dating a girl who was a virgin until she was 30 (i am 32). Not for religious reasons but for personal and not finding the right guy, I am glad she chose me (sounds terrible).
I even tried to talk her out of it even saying i was not worth it and wait for someone else but in the end i relented (twist my rubber arm) gave her gentle night of passion. And yes our first time together was a laugh and learn fest.

Do what you think is right mate, just use protection and warn her before you cum if doing oral...only polite thing to do.

I honestly feel you should speak to her about this internal debate. Ask her if she has ever been with a virgin. Explain how that it's not going to be pretty. See how she responds. It will not destroy your manliness to carry on an in-depth discussion.

^ oh she knows, and she hasn't, and she has her own concerns about "living up to what i want it to be" but i pretty much told her to relax and that whether she "lives up to" what i want is my issue to figure out, not hers

FYI I am one of those crazy religious gals. But I am also a sex freak! I love Jesus, though I know not everybody does. However I think sex is awesome and the religious leaders who preach that it is dirty and ugly and you shouldn't do it are the ones that ain't getting any, IMO. Anyway, I agree that your "religion" should not be the basis of a sexual decision, however you could say, from a Christian prospective, your "relationship with Christ" should be the factor. I believe in prayer, hey it works for me, and if you seriously pray about it and feel that "your God" is telling you no, then make the decision do you go with your "God" or do you go with your loins. I never felt my God put me down for my sexual decisions. I never felt my "relationship with Jesus" was affected by my sex life.

So there, now you have a Christian/religious prospective. Don't know if that helps.

FYI, I still got love for all of you following a different religion or nixing the whole religion thing all together. I don't claim to have all the answers, I just know what works for me and Jesus works for me and Sex works for me-maybe I have two religions, hmmmmmm, must ponder this, maybe time to go worship Sex now!!!

true canuckguy. but i just see a guy whos a little confused who needs some advice. i saw one way traffic in here and thought that maybe someone needed to run the other way.

ive been around religious and non religious people from many religions and have seen both sides of the fence.

i guess tech has to look at his own internal demons and figure out what he wants to do.

if i was confused and unsure id err to the side of caution.

it aint easy, but good luck!

If you're not ready, you're not ready. Whatever you do, it will probably be ok...if you go balls-in, wear a jimmy. But if you think you're going to regret it, then I think you should wait. Sure, you may look back in 5 years and fantasize what it could have been like, and you may think that all this anxst you're experiencing right now is just silly...but that's not where you are right now. Be ok with whatever decision you make.

Keep in mind that when the sex rules were put in the bible, a marriage ceremony was basically a bartering with the family to take one of their females, and a man could have as many wives as he wanted. And if all their wombs were barren, he was allowed to screw his servants in order to advance his sigil.

Do it if you want, you won't go to hell for it. After it's over, you'll wonder what the big deal was. Always remember, sex only seems important when you aren't having it.

I am one of those religious types. I won't inject my religous beliefs like some have. That is better suited for another place. I will share my experience with you.

While I did not wait until marriage (I was not a religous type in my teens), I married a wonderful woman who did. Like Milkyway, I now regret not waiting as my wife did. It hurt her emotionally to know I had been with other women. That is the last thing I ever would want to do. In hindsight I would not do it again, because of the love I have for my spouse.

Also, my best friend was a religious type. He got very involved with a girl and she wanted it to get sexual. He gave in and lost his virginity with her. She ended up dumping him and going back to her old loser boyfriend. My buddy was crushed. Even though he has been married for 14 years now, he still mentioned the hurt he felt over his first when we talked just a few weeks ago.

If your girlfriend truely loves you, she would understand. Milkyway is an example of that.

Hmm As I sit and read everyone response to this subject and agree full heartedly.
A) Whether continue on the path to waiting until you find that gal to marry( which honestly who knows when and where it'll happen)
B)The choice to still a virgin until you find that "ONE" woman that has your full heart than go for it, but to base this choice on religious aspect is barbaric based on a scale of one to ten of the worse sins to send one to"hell" has to be a 1 the lowest evil on God's mind. Honestly dude i'm not saying to go bang every chick just to be 26 and still pure is odd in my opinion and circle of friends.
sorry if it's harsh or not the perfect answer but it's coming from an atheist prospective

I think most people here know I value religion very much-- being a rabbinical student, I could hardly do otherwise.

Bearing that in mind, I do not believe that God expects people to remain virgins until they are married. Nor do I believe there is anything inherently pure or worthy in virginity.

Talmudic Judaism certainly did teach that women should remain virgins until marriage, but I am of the opinion that this would have been phased out of Judaism had it not been for the sexual mores of Christian society influencing Judaism. For Biblical and Talmudic Judaism, the issue with female virginity was not moral, but financial: in ancient Near Eastern society, a virgin commanded a higher bride-price than a non-virgin, and males in that society tended to fetishize virginity. The Bible and the Talmud are primarily concerned that a non-virgin might misrepresent herself as a virgin, thus swindling a husband out of a bride-price to which she is not legally entitled. Morality was not the primary issue for women's virginity, and there was no expectation that a man be a virgin until his marriage in Judaism-- not until the modern era and the advent of post-Enlightenment Orthodoxy. The Bible and the Talmud worry about morality when it comes to forbidden sexual relations (incest, adultery, bestiality, sex as part of idolatry, and possibly, male-on-male anal intercourse).

I understand that Christianity sees things differently. But this is an area in which I have problems with Christian teachings. I tend to believe that repression of one's sexuality is damaging, and that God does not wish us to damage ourselves. I also believe that there is a reason that sex feels good-- beyond mere evolutionary advantages-- and a reason that sex engenders sharing, caring, and intimacy. I do not believe that God would have created us with this capacity if we were not intended to use it, or if it were somehow shameful in and of itself.

We are taught that human beings are created in the image of God. This is not a literalism (God, obviously, has no physical form at all, let alone a humanoid shape), but a reference to free will, creative thought, reason, and the ability to love. I believe part and parcel of this is the human ability to take joy in one another. I think sex can be holy and beautiful, and not just within the context of religious marriage. I personally believe that the sound of a woman having a screaming orgasm is the closest thing we can generally hear to the sound of angels. I think that when your eyes meet your lover's at the moment of climax, joined literally at the hip, there really is an open window into your lover's soul.

I think you should try to let go of the idea that God wants you to be a virgin. I think you should have sex with your girlfriend, and enjoy it, and find the beauty and the truth and the sanctity in the act of love.

Remember, there are an infinite number of ways to interpret Scripture; but our time on this Earth is limited, and we miss a central experience of this world if we do not take our chances to delve into other people.

And if I'm wrong?

God is infinitely forgiving.

Thanks for this excellent post levite. It expresses the thoughts that are in my mind as I read this thread to a tee. Just thought you should know that there is at least one Christian in this world, who holds the same point of view as you on this topic.

Hey!! Damn, I was at that conference in Spain when this whole convo went down--just came across it now. I don't know if the guy is still reading, or already decided to have sex, but here's my two cents (MSD also covered a lot of my points already, as well as levite):

I was 24 when I lost my virginity, after many years of being a person of pretty intense faith and wanting to wait until I was married. Something happened, though, just before I lost my virginity (and subsequently met ktspktsp, my current husband--and he lost his virginity with me, after being very honest about it at the age of 24 as well)--I decided that it didn't matter to me whether or not I was married, even though I had waited so long already. This was a huge realization for me, but it set the tone for all of my future decisions regarding sex. It just took a heck of a long time to get there... but no one could have ever rushed me to that decision. I needed to take my own time and have people respect that.

Now, I had previously dated a guy who had slept with over 50 women, and after several months of dating and him telling me that he loved me, I still didn't want to sleep with him (nor did I love him)--knowing that he had slept with that many people also freaked me out, since he told me that he might have a disease, as well. I felt it was the right thing to NOT sleep with him, especially because he was so keen on doing it with me--it just didn't feel right to lose it with someone like that.

However, after that asshat, I became good friends with a guy who had only, ever slept with one girl--his current girlfriend, and the one he eventually married--from a Catholic background, though he was no longer religious. And believe it or not, I had never known anyone like that--someone who didn't wait until marriage to have sex, but was very serious, very monogamous, with the person that he decided to have sex with. It was a new model for me, after all my Christian conditioning that once you "lose" it, it's "lost" forever, yadda yadda, the "gift" to your future spouse is lost, you become a slut, etc. Why would I want to be with someone who was going to judge me based on my past? I liked this new model, and I decided that I wanted to adopt it for myself. I decided that I didn't want to wait until I was married to have sex--I was already 24, and I felt like I was wasting my 20s away waiting for some perfect guy (which was most likely never going to happen, given my waning religiousity at the time), and I wanted to be having SEX, dammit! So I decided that the next guy that was serious, monogamous, and committed, would be the one that I would take this next step with.

Of course, as these things go--and many TFP'ers already know this story--I had one crazy spring break down in New Orleans with a few frat boys (it was all very surreal--not my thing at all, but we were all driving down for a waterski camp together, and I got stuck with them in my car)--got shitfaced, blackout drunk and ended up having sex with some random guy in a hostel. Yeah, perfect storm, right? (It happens more often than you think, with people like us.) The decision I made came out of its shell the first chance it got, with alcohol numbing my inhibitions. So, I wasn't proud of myself, but the fact was that I was no longer a virgin.

Aside from the shock of what I had done, I felt free. Really free.

I met ktspktsp not long afterwards, and we didn't wait very long to have sex. I still had to deal with quite a few hang-ups about sex for some months afterwards, as leftovers from my religious era, but the fact that I was no longer a virgin was really what helped me to just move on and not get hung up on "should I wait? should I make him wait?" He was a virgin himself, though not for religious reasons whatsoever--and he didn't care that I had lost it in such a manner. He was just plain happy to be with me, regardless of my history, and he was grateful that I was happy to be with him, regardless of his lack of experience. (We got married 2.5 years later, for the record.)

So, there's my story. Dunno if it's helpful--but I think that if you're with the right person, the question of "should I or shouldn't I?" won't matter. You'll just both want to do it, no holds barred (though yes, make sure you wrap it). If you have some hesitation, or feel that she doesn't respect your virginity, then she's most likely someone that isn't worth your time--but that's just my impression.

see.. i knew abaya would put some sense into it

mod or not.. you're always insightful

Is virginity still considered to be quite important in Israeli society, Levite? I found your summary to be pretty interesting, since the whole obsession with female virginity (to fetch a higher bride-price, or at least a higher-status male on the social totem pole) seems to still be pretty prominent in much of the Middle East.

Spending some time in Lebanon (a relatively liberal country) and around ktspktsp's family, I realize that if I had been Lebanese and met him there, I would most likely not have been allowed to spend nights with him until we got married--even though his parents are quite liberal. Perhaps they would have been more relaxed because it was their son, rather than their daughter, wanting to spend nights with a significant other (an annoying double standard)--but I still don't think it would have been encouraged. Even when I came to stay with them for 2 weeks (long before we were married), I was not "introduced" to the rest of the family, and I don't think my stay there was made very public... even though I was an American and not subject to their cultural rules, in that sense. Virginity still seems to be very important there, especially for women--and not as a moral issue at all, but a financial/marriage/social one, and something that they are quite concerned about for their daughter.
Thanks, dlish, I appreciate that. :D Btw, I'd be interested to hear your take on the Lebanese aspect of this, as well. Did you meet your wife in Australia? How did the courtship period go between your families? (Are either of you religious?)

I do not think Orthodox Jewish belief will change over time whether the male or female. Perhaps since part of a way to get married, which is now done still, as one of the three parts of a Jewish wedding, is having sex with someone.

No we do not have actual sex at the wedding, but the bride and groom go in to a room together for whatever they want to do, and they have witnesses who watch and make sure they are undisturbed for about 8-10 minutes.

So having sex in Jewish belief is not that simple, and the difference between men and women is that it is easier to see if a woman is a virgin (of course not like actually checked but conceptually).


As far as in this case you have to figure out your own moral values and your ethics you care to believe in. And if you have those and your significant other will not respect that, and needs sex so bad that she does not care about your values, then you have a major issue in my book going in. I am not questioning whether your value should be or should not be, but in a relationship she should have at least respect for something this big, even if it is not what she has chosen for herself.

I can agree with that. Well said.

abaya,

as you can see, ive been here quite a number of years without saying much about my private life. some things arent meant to be made for everyone. ive tried to keep she-lish out of the tfp limelight because shes never expressly asked to be a part of it, so i respect those indirect wishes.

in private there are a few tfpers that i would share this info from, and they know who they are.

what i can say though is that we come from religious but laid back families. mine being more liberal than she-lishs'. im obviously very liberal compared to most in my family, but i refuse to lose my ties with my roots.

i can see what u mean about the lebanse culture, and most of what you say ive seen with my own eyes eben here in oz..would love to reply, and i will. but im at work at the moment. . . so ive gotta come back to this thread!

Thank you for this honest response--certainly, I understand wanting to keep things private and to respect your wife's indirect wishes. So I'm grateful for any information you choose to provide, as obviously we have a lot in common (and it's good to have further insight into my husband's culture, as always).

When I lost my virginity there were candles and music and seduction. Then again, my life is a walking punch line.

Tech, I gave up on the fervid pleas of religion a long time ago; not because I have any less respect for the ideals of christianity but rather I refuse to limit my life. Limits, they seem to give you control over something ungovernable. Life is wild dude. There isn't really a science to it and the only answers I have for myself are usually "what do I want?" and if that ends with multiple and conflicting answers I say "What do I want more?". So what do you want more? The pride of saying "I held on" or to experience life. Either way, like Las said, the first time isn't going to be fucking fantastic (no pun intended). It'll be an experience though; sounds like something you need.

In Israel today, it varies. Among Israeli Arabs, I have heard it depends a great deal on whether they are Muslim or Christian, and whether they are more or less secular. If they are Christian, it is still said to matter, but premarital sexual activity is ignored more often than not, if discreet. If they are secular Muslim, roughly the same applies. I don't know if these elements in Arab society still have bride-prices or display virginity tokens or anything like that. If they are practicing Muslim, it matters. A lot. They do have bride-prices, and sometimes still display tokens.

Among the Jews in Israel, it also depends how fundamentalist one is in one's religious choices. Among the Haredim (Ultra-Orthodox), viriginity matters a whole lot, for supposed moral reasons. Bride-prices still sometimes exist, and there is a huge honor thing about virginity in the Haredi community (although nobody kills anyone about it). Among the Dati'im Le'umim (Modern Orthodox Zionists), it matters, but less so, and is often overlooked if discreet, and girls will often preserve their virginity for marriage by giving blowjobs, or having anal sex with the guys they date. There are no bride-prices or displaying of tokens in Dati Le'umi society, they are far too modern for that stuff. And among the Hilonim ("secular" Jews, although in Israel this includes everyone who, in America or other countries with large Jewish populations, would be referred to as "Liberal Jews:" Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, etc.), virginity does not matter at all, and though monogamy is valued, and marriage is encouraged, nobody is really expected to be a virgin at marriage.

Sure, Xazy, Orthodox belief is not what I was describing. No question. Nonetheless, Orthodox attitudes, Orthodox intepretations, Orthodox halakhah [Jewish law] have all changed with time. Once upon a time, yikhud (leaving the bride and groom alone together for a bit, with witnesses) was absolutely intended for their consummation of the marriage, so that people would still be around to witness if the groom had to protest the bride not being as she was promised (either not a virgin, or with an undeclared physical defect, or under undeclared vows, etc.), and nobody actually consummates the marriage at yikhud anymore-- nor is expected to, since it is now universally presumed no groom will object to his bride's status, since they will know each other well and intimately by the time they get married. Most of my Modern Orthodox friends who've gotten married have not married virgins or been virgins, and everybody just kind of pretends to not hear or understand the references in the ketubah (deed of marriage) to the woman being a virgin.

I think maybe the words will stick around for a long time in Orthodoxy, but sooner or later, the Talmudic presumption of the daughters of Israel to all be virgins will be, practically speaking, the openly acknowledged legal fiction that it always was.

My point wasn't to say that what I was describing accurately reflected the views of all or most Jews-- it doesn't. But I believe it to be true, and I believe that sooner or later, it will reflect the views of many if not most Jews. Religions change. They adapt, and evolve, or they die. In Judaism, that means that halakhah evolves, and our understanding of Torah evolves. I think it will evolve toward an open acceptance of the beauty and holiness of sexuality-- the Shir Hashirim (Song of Songs) approach, if you will. I hope in Christianity, there will be an analogous evolution toward the same place. I think it's important, and I think the OP should not wait for his religion's scriptural understanding to catch up, but should follow that Song of Songs approach to sexuality now, with the understanding that if we are all wrong about this, God will forgive what is done with good intentions.

This thread compelled me to join the tfp. Why? Well, I guess we shall see.

My wife and I (married for 10 years, august 2nd) both were raised 'in the church' but never took our 'faith' seriously. She and I both became what one might call 'radical Christians' in college. While neither of us were virgins, we both wanted to wait again. until married. Well, our reasons for waiting were so closely tied to our perception of our 'faith', that when we 'failed to wait', we carried a burden of guilt that was difficult to let go. We lived in fear of "God's" wrath because we were physically intimate. But, it was the FEAR that really caused us trouble. We were married 6 months after our first sexual encounter. We had sex through all the worry and guilt during our engagement. At times, we would shed tears because we 'knew' it was wrong, but couldn't keep apart.

Fast forward 6 years of marriage (and 3 kids later), that guilt no longer plagues us as it once did. No longer are there questions. We grew up emotionally, spiritually. Looking back, we don't know why we were so troubled and we now wished we weren't and could have enjoyed those times more. Now at soon to be 10 years, we have become more 'universal' in our spirituallity, and have alot more freedom than ever before.

If your decisions are based on fear, then I urge you to re-evaluate your position and the reason for your fear. If you were to have sex with this lady, you may have regrets for some time to come, you may not. Everyone is different. But if you don't want the risk of having the regret, then hold off on it. I don't remember hearing from anyone that chose to wait that they regretted waiting.

While it is just 'sex' to some, it does have different meaning to different people. To some people, it is abstract and spiritual, others it is physical or emotional. Many people experience each of these at different times. But one thing you should never feel is guilt or shame about it. IF you do, you rob yourself of the simple joys life can provide.

My advice, figure out how you will be free from fear first before you decide which way you want to go.

Sorry but I can say that in modern orthodox that it depends on the people. Yes I know friends who had sex before marriage, I also know a lot of people who did not including 3 people from high school who only just got married and are in their mid 30s. As far as no sex in the yichud room, I have stood witness 3 times, and I know something went down at least in 2 of the times. And I have 2 other friends who had sex in the yichud room.

The other point for me is to me an orthodox Jew is one who follows certain values, just because you wear a yamulka and talk the talk that only means you do not want to embarrass (shame) yourself or your family it is if you walk the walk too that makes you an orthodox Jew.

Do I think G-d is forgiving, yes but only if you mean and ask for forgiveness, and not if you do a sin on purpose with the knowledge in your heart that you will repeat the same sin. How he will taly your life in the end and judge you and calculate all that is beyond our understanding, but that does not mean we should go out and sin. While Jewish belief in certain aspects change it is trying to figure out for instance how does electric work in regards to the laws of Shabbos, with someone in a coma when is he dead, can you pull the plug. That is an evolution of Judiasm of taking today world and seeing how it fits and works, and that is something you need to ask a Rabbi like Rev Feinstein.

I can not say that I do not sin, nor can I say that physical temptation does not make Orthodox or any person give in, but that does not say that by religeous value it is acceptable, it is not. As far as the Kesubah goes, I know of many questions that have gone to a few different Rabbis about circumstances, and that is not very simple. Which is why most Ruv will not be Mesadir Kiddushin (lead the services of the wedding) without studying at least 3-4 month to prepare, or have already prepared before and do a review.

And to say G-d commandment, the torah can change in regards to sex, is to say that maybe next year we can have pork. (NO cynthetiq I do not believe that so do not bring it over in a year from today).

Xazy, I think this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree, my friend. Orthodoxy and Conservative (which is nominally what I'd call myself) just see the nature of halakhah (Jewish law) differently at this time. And while I would be totally delighted to continue the very excellent conversation about those differences in another thread or by PM, I think if I really respond to your good points here, this is gonna turn into a mondo threadjack....

Mortons, welcome to the TFP! And congrats on your upcoming 10 year anniversary. :)

Boy, do I remember that feeling well, though I never had sex when I was a "radical" Christian--I lived in fear of all the other boundary-crossing I did, though (French kissing, taking off clothes, dry-humping, etc)--to the point where I couldn't deal with it anymore, and swore it all off. It was just too dangerous a path to walk if I wanted to remain abstinent, or at least that was what I thought at the time. It's a real shame, though, because I do kind of regret waiting so long--I think I could have relaxed and had a lot more fun back then, but I was so damn tense and watching boundaries all the time, that I could never really enjoy the relationship (with someone who was as equally interested in waiting till marriage as I was). That's almost exactly how I feel, as well--looking back, I just don't get what the hell was wrong with me, that I had to have such a stick up my ass. My decision to eventually have sex (before marriage) was based on an honest evaluation of where I was with my faith, and what role sex played in that--and I am the type of person that would rather regret doing something (even the wrong thing), than to regret not having tried something at all. And I didn't want to regret wasting my 20s as a virgin, basically. Sounds crude, but that was the truth. :) Excellent advice.

Don't give in to the pressure. Stick to your guns man. I can't believe how many people on here are belittling your beliefs. That shows how much respect they have for you and what their advice is worth. Don't give in to the tyranny of the majority.

I think it is awesome that you are still a virgin. Good for you. As long as you are fine with it, it doesn't mater what any of us think.

levite and xazy - just a favour? do you mind if you guys made life a little easier by translating some of those jewish terms? it makes for much easier reading. words like halakhah for example - most people wouldnt have a clue what that means - including myself.

interesting topic though.

abaya


you are correct in that lebanon is quite liberal compared to other mid east nations. that is without doubt.

however that is not to say that the double standards non existant, in fact they are rampant! boys can do many things women cant. obviously virgnity is key and a loose woman is frowned upon in lebanese society, but for men it not as important because how do you really prove whether a boy is a virgin or not? you cant. so the importance of the unbroken hymen must remain with the females.

i did grow up in a relatively religious family in oz. but the further you are away from your country and cultue the more the family tends to hold onto the values and customs of the homeland.

religion for example - most people that come to oz from lebanon for a holiday visit are surprised to see how religious many people are compared to lebanon. fundament thought is spawned through isolation.

so anyways, having an american go to lebanon and stay with ktsp would have had you talk of the town. so in order to minimize all that, i dont find it surprising that the news wasnt spread to all ends of the Jbeil! the would have been aware that if news spread the whole Jbeil neighbourhood would be talking about you.

virginity is islamic circles is extremely important. its quite necesary, even in liberal circles. maybe its not from a religious point for liberals but from a social view and how people will view you. so being loose or sleeping or associating with men that are not related to you could have nasty stigmas.

in tripoli in nth lebanon where my parents are from things are a little relaxed. the more you go to the mountains the more the 'farmer mentality' takes hold.

as far as bride prices are concerned - its is still necesary in muslim families to have a dowry. its the islamic way. although there is the customry dowries where say the agreement is 100,000 dollars. the amounts are usually gestures and no money is ever exchanged. it is basically a 'gift' to the spouse and nott o her family.

usually the deal is that in the circumstances of a divorce the woman has a right ask for her dowry. these days due to inflationary pressures many dowries are agreed upon in gold coins so that if a woman does ask for her right, the 100,000 she was promised 20 years ago is now worth a pack of lollies.

i too offered a dowry to she-lish at the time of our marriage. no money was ever exchanged - although it is customery to say that ill give you a dollar now and the rest later if she asks for it(mit-addam and mit-akhar).

in saying all that i did meet she-lish in oz. yes she is educated and highly sought after in her field. yes we both have quite religious families, but imnot the type that will be pressured into whatever people think is right for me. being muslim and being raised in a muslim family doesnt really have to be all that. and while my parents are religious they are quite easy going. my mother stayed most of her life without donning the hijab, and has only put it on recently in the last few years since the Hajj pilgrimage.

Fascinating reply, dlish. I hope we're not getting too off the subject of the OP, here--but I'm very interested in understanding the place of virginity (at any age) in other cultures, as I think it gives a good context of why the OP has a right to maintain his own standards and not just conform to the dominant culture. I should clarify and say that ktsp's parents live in West Beirut--not Jbeil--that's just where his mother's family lives.

Also, his parents are both very relaxed (at least about their son), and come from different religions, so I think that's why the religious part of it is not very important to them. But I would think that their daughter's virginity is still important, given the social demands and limited marriage market for Lebanese women right now--and that's something I never would have considered as the context of my own virginity, back in the day.

For my old religious self at the time, virginity into my 20s was more about "keeping myself pure," than a fear of not finding a man who would marry me--in fact, I was the one with pretty high standards for the man, not the other way around! In my social circles, the man's virginity was just as important as the woman's, even though it could not be "tested" as such. Evagelical guys were expected to wait till marriage just as much as the girls, and would be looked down upon just as much if they decided to break that rule. There was some small amount of comfort in the lack of a double standard there, at least.

so just an update and clarification for those still reading this thread (i had no idea it was still goin...)

while in the past my faith has led me to keep my virginity, it is not currently holding a leash on me. i still feel very strongly about my faith, but me remaining a virgin is not part of my beliefs. my main hang-up has become that i've just put it off so long that not having sex is "safe." anyway, i'm growing to accept the idea that i am okay with not being a virgin anymore (but, for the record, i still am). the girl i was dating in my original post turned out to be a self-absorbed flake so i broke it off. we'll just have to see what happens with the next lucky girl to come along ;)

Well, there you go, man. You're doing just fine--in fact, better than most, because I'm sure a lot of guys would have just slept with the self-absorbed flake anyway--and you're choosing to do what's healthy for you, regardless of what religion or society says. :thumbsup:

Let us know how it all goes! We like to know how people are evolving, around here. :)

Living life the way you want to is more important than running away from a past you've left behind. It'll all work out. Sounds like you're more than smart enough to figure out when the right time is for you.

Hi,

I just joined this forum because of this thread also. I am also a 26 year old virgin, but not for religious reasons. I spent a good part of my teens and early twenties suffering from major depression and low self esteem. Because of that, I did not date. Now that I finally have my problems under control, I have finally started dating. I use online dating sites because I don't have much of a social life.

The difficult thing is when I do go out with these guys, they expect sex early on, like the third date the latest. I am not waiting till I am married; I am waiting until I am comfortable with the person. When I tell guys that, I never see them again. It is getting so frustrating. I know I am not alone, because I recently read an article from Salon.com about women my age or older who are still virgins. (The 30-year-old virgins | Salon Life) But it is so hard to find a guy who is willing to wait about a month, and I've also never told these guys that I am still a virgin. Most people don't know, except for my immediate family. And even there I get pressure from my two unkind sisters, who tell me I should just "get it over with" and sleep on the third date. They don't understand that I want to be comfortable with the person.

So, that is my story. I am done ranting. I just wanted to post this to the thread starter and everyone else that is reading this who is still a virgin at a late age that you are never alone.

Cheers!

i'd have to say that if there's any way you can fit your ethics into the "sooner than later" box, the better off you'll be. regardless of what you believe, the dynamics of a healthy relationship begin in the bedroom and your chemistry together there. you need to know how you fit together that way as much as you need to know how you both handle a big argument between the two of you and how you both handle the little things about living together that are tough.... do ALL that before marriage, so you don't get stuck from being ignorant going in.