How important is masculinity/femininity when determining attractiveness?

[ASU2003]

Or when determining compatibility/chemistry/hotness or whatever you want to call it? Then the other question is what can a person do to increase their masculinity level or femininity level? What advice would you give to the other gender about this?

I'm been thinking about this question for a while, but now I will see what you all think. I read this article a few weeks ago:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0312231757.htm
But, I'm not sure if it really answers my question. As a guy, I can not answer what masculine features guys have that turn girls on. But there has to be something different to make them go after these types of guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kevin_Federline.jpg
And don't try claiming it's 'confidence' since they see lots of other guys that look and act like that have plenty of success, it makes them realize there is something about looking like that which makes girls respond positively.

As for girls, I think there is a level of femininity that makes girls look or act like girls that is perfect. It is a wide range though and many girls would fit into this group. And even doing some 'tom-boy' things would be considered very attractive. Things like camping, hiking, mountain biking, computers, cars, golfing, fishing, or a bunch of other things, if you see a girl doing them it makes them more attractive than just thinking how good they would look naked. I know I was more attracted to the German backpacker girl that I met hiking in Australia than any girl that is a model. Even though they are nice to look at, extreme femininity doesn't seem to be compatible with me. But, I do like ponytails and skirts.

But, it doesn't seem to work the same way if you switch things around. As I guy, if I took a ball-room dancing class, yoga class, sewing/quilting, or some other activity where females outnumber males make me look attractive to females? It seems like I need to be more masculine and better at male activities (quarterback of the winning football team, lead singer of a good rock band, most popular guy with a bunch of friends(or has power/causes fear in other guys), military experience, successful business guy,...) in order to raise my attractiveness. Hmm, maybe I should get a bunch of tattoos, wear a baseball cap sideways, wear baggy pants, and have anger management issues...

I don't know, what do you think?

[mixedmedia]

I don't know. Surface masculinity is not a factor at all for me.

But it seems to me you are dealing in stereotypes, particularly in your summation of what women are looking for in men.

I've made this observation here before without much feedback on it, but if all women are looking for the rich, handsome, tough guys, then why do I see so many men who are none of those things going out on dates and getting married? It doesn't seem to correlate with these kinds of statements.

[Willravel]

It's not important. I'd totally marry Starbuck and she's pretty masculine.

[Strange Famous]

Being masculine is nothing to do with having tattoo's, dressing as fashion magazines tell you, being in the army, playing specific American sports, or being a bully.

You just need to practise being terse, having a well of aggression within you that you can let out in certain circumstance, and if you ever get in a confrontation with another dude in front of your girl - sniff the air expectantly then swallow, visibly wrap your car/house keys around your fist, and straight out ask the other guy if he's calling you a cunt.

It works everytime.

[RetroGunslinger]

Originally Posted by willravel

It's not important. I'd totally marry Starbuck and she's pretty masculine.

I second the motion. The hot, sweaty, frakkin' motion.

And more to the point, for me it really doesn't matter, but I think there are plenty of people who it does matter to. For example, I used to be more representative of my taste in music (glam rock), and that definitely took my chances of attracting chicks and slapped a big ol' negative in front of them.

Having said that, anyone who would take being yourself as a problem (exception for nazism) is a cunt, so it really doesn't matter.

[Bees]

One of the things I figured out fairly early in my life is that the best way to be attractive to women is to simply have lots of good friends of both sexes.
I mean true friendships based on real feelings not on power trips or superficial popularity contests.

Here is how it works (at least for me anyway):

The more true friends you have that think you are a nice guy the more chances you will have to find a women that is attracted to you because you ARE a nice guy.

I could elaborate some more if you want but it really is as simple as it sounds.

[Shauk]

I "look" like I could be masculine, but I'm really not. it's kinda sucky. I see total brain dead thugs with girls that are smart and super hot and I just go "goddamn the gene pool"



not really, I just don't care so much anymore.

Originally Posted by willravel

It's not important. I'd totally marry Starbuck and she's pretty masculine.

I wouldn't say "marry" given her story line.
She does have a superb personality in that show though, hell, her interviews make her seem just as cool so I wonder how far off the mark it is?

I'd hit it,

/canofworms

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Shauk

I'd hit it,

I'm telling Jinn!!!

[inBOIL]

Originally Posted by ASU2003

...wear a baseball cap sideways, wear baggy pants, and have anger management issues...

Originally Posted by Shauk

I see total brain dead thugs with girls that are smart and super hot and I just go "goddamn the gene pool"

I think some people here are confusing masculinity with douchebaggery.

[The Nightfly]

Don't flame me for it, but if you've ever looked into the whole PUA scene type thing, it proves that women find men who exhibit masculine/alpha characteristics attractive on a sub-concious level. I've seen it happen a thousand times. Think about it: Super models could have practically ANY man they choose. So why do they usually go out with drug addicted rock stars who beat them and treat them badly?

I know that whole PUA thing is a bit sad, but it's certainly a great insight into the mechanics of human interraction (plus it works). Humans are animals just like any other creatures on earth, so why should we be exempt from finding displays of high masculinity/femininity attractive?

[Willravel]

One doesn't have to beat women to be an alpha-male.

While I'm not an alpha, I can be. Every time I've ever been in an emergency situation I've been in charge. I suspect that most people are actually like this, but don't make the attempt because someone else steps in first. If you're sure that you're the most capable leader of the group, just fucking do it. That goes for the lovely ladies of TFP, too. Don't let some ponce ruin everything because they're charismatic nature doesn't actually translate to leadership skills.

[The Nightfly]

Originally Posted by willravel

One doesn't have to beat women to be an alpha-male.

Haha I know that. That's not what I meant. I'm just saying the reason the reason women are attracted to idiots like that is because they just behave like an alpha male all the time, even if they don't know when to stop.

However, a lot of nice guys will suppress the urge to behave in an alpha-male way when it's not an emergency, because they're afraid of coming across like one of the people I just mentioned.

[Martian]

Originally Posted by The Nightfly

Don't flame me for it, but if you've ever looked into the whole PUA scene type thing, it proves that women find men who exhibit masculine/alpha characteristics attractive on a sub-concious level. I've seen it happen a thousand times. Think about it: Super models could have practically ANY man they choose. So why do they usually go out with drug addicted rock stars who beat them and treat them badly?

I know that whole PUA thing is a bit sad, but it's certainly a great insight into the mechanics of human interraction (plus it works). Humans are animals just like any other creatures on earth, so why should we be exempt from finding displays of high masculinity/femininity attractive?

This is oversimplifying. The fact that you felt the need to preface your post with "Don't flame me for it, but..." leads me to believe you know it, too.

The tricks used by 'pick-up artists' are employed by a specific subset of boys and are effective on a specific subset of girls. I believe it to be a fallacy to attempt to apply that specific circumstance to a broader population.

I get confused during discussions of masculinity. I am a blues musician and a gearhead, which are generally considered masculine traits. I am also well read and, modesty aside, quite intelligent, which are less so. I'm not afraid of my emotions, which is 'sissy,' but I don't feel the need to broadcast them, which is 'manly.'

Of course, I am somewhat masculine. I have male genitalia, after all. On the other hand, I don't fit the hypermasculine ideal that's seen on magazine covers and in countless action films; I would contend, in fact, that few if any real men do. I have no issue attracting women and in fact often run into trouble because I attract too many. I suspect that insofar as there is a 'normal' man, I run closer to that than anything else.

I don't really buy that gender roles are hard coded. On the one hand, physiology tells us that men are better suited for certain tasks than women and vice versa, but I don't consider the difference to be any more significant than those that make tall people better suited to specific tasks. I may never be in the NBA, but I can still play basketball, y'know?

So if we accept that gender roles are more sociological than physiological it would naturally follow that any sort of typified ideal is sociological as well. I think history actually supports this, since we can see that ideals change over time and through different cultures. In that situation, we can then further conclude that 'masculine' is a societal construct, and that the word doesn't really have any inherent value, as is true also for feminine. Consider that 70 years ago it would've been unladylike for a woman to study physics or play sports, but in today's world these things are broadly accepted.

Personally, if a woman prizes feminity over all else I'm not likely to be interested; I like a woman who isn't afraid to get dirty now and again.

Originally Posted by ASU2003

And don't try claiming it's 'confidence' since they see lots of other guys that look and act like that have plenty of success, it makes them realize there is something about looking like that which makes girls respond positively.

I'm not sure why you're attempting to discount self-confidence as an aspect of attractiveness. It's not the whole thing, but it's certainly a piece of the puzzle. A confident inept slob may not have success with the ladies, or a successful but socially awkward man, but someone who can manage a reasonable approximation of various attraction factors stands a good chance of finding a mate. I think confidence is one of the more important ones, actually; why should a woman take an interest in you if you're not even interested in yourself?

[snowy]

My partner does not care for women with typically feminine attributes; good thing I'm not overly feminine. I have a tomboy streak about a mile wide (I like sports, computers, nerds, hiking, the outdoors), but I still like some frills; I enjoy painting my toenails pink, like to cook, and occasionally wear make-up. He doesn't like it when I wear make-up, but since I'm not the subservient type, I stick my tongue out at him and tell him to shove it (teasingly, of course).

Similarly, my guy is no macho man. He's no crybaby either, but he's pretty in touch with himself and who he is. He can be very masculine when he wants to be, and enjoys traditionally masculine pursuits (sports, backpacking). He is much more mechanically inclined than I am--but he's never condescending about it. I think that's the one thing I appreciate about him the most--he's comfortable enough with himself to take the time to share his expertise with others in a way that isn't patronizing. It sets him apart from a lot of men I know.

As for guys taking yoga--guys who take yoga/do yoga are HOT, period. They can stretch their bodies in ways you cannot even imagine. Plus, seeing a guy do yoga tells me he's comfortable enough with himself that he doesn't care what others think. He's more interested in his health--body and mind.

[Willravel]

After taking a few yoga classes I now realize that a man can take yoga for reasons entirely aside from being healthy. In a room with 20 really hot women wearing practically nothing and bending in ways that would make a kama sutra master blush it took all of my energy to simply stare at the floor or ceiling so I could concentrate on what I was doing.

[The Nightfly]

Originally Posted by Martian

This is oversimplifying. The fact that you felt the need to preface your post with "Don't flame me for it, but..." leads me to believe you know it, too.

The tricks used by 'pick-up artists' are employed by a specific subset of boys and are effective on a specific subset of girls. I believe it to be a fallacy to attempt to apply that specific circumstance to a broader population.

I know the whole PUA thing is geared towards guys getting 'party girls' to open their legs. My point is that it demonstrates on a very basic level that being confident within yourself and not coming across as a subservient ass-kissing man will make you more attractive to women. I believe that to be true 99.9% of the time. When I refer to masculinity, I'm not talking about bone-headed macho displays of violence. I'm talking about coming across as sure of yourself and confident, without taking it too far. Some people obviously have those traits naturally built in to them, but others don't.

[little_tippler]

And this is where I slip in the BBC quiz on face perception in terms of attraction for men and women, and how we realate that to personality, that I'm sure we've probably mentioned previously:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/mind/surveys/faceperception2/