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I'm also not sure what you mean by Especially for people who are popularly deemed to be unattractive. . Do you mean that those who are considered unattractive are perceived as having a much better experience with an 'attractive' partner over someone their 'level'? Quote:
Even what is attractive has only changed slightly from age to age, at least in the western world. I know Ruben's work is often used to show how somehow 'thin' wasn't always in, but I think thats a misinterpretation of his work. Ruben's painted all body types of all extremes, from grossly fat to extremely muscular, it was the variety of the human form that he liked to paint. But take a look at the idealized greek, roman, and renaissance sculpture. The women are all thin and attractive by todays standards unless you consider the emaciated Paris model to be a 'standard'. I think the bar only moves slightly up or down on whats attractive in any generation. As for the concept of the 'pity fuck' well undoubtedly there are those that do it and even think they are somehow being kind. Such is not my personality so understanding the motivations is hard. My personal stance is there is no such thing as a pity fuck, just some guys want an excuse for their actions. As for the second part of that, the eagerness in bed, thats part of a long standing belief, which may or may not be a myth that the less attractive you are the more attentive you are to your partner. You will often hear how men with big dicks are bad in bed because they just assume its all they need. Its that same type of thinking. I can't say if its true or not, but I could see how it might be for some. Quote:
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If there were two women available to you, both of whom you had had sex with before... one very attractive, but not very responsive in bed the other, plain or even fairly unattractive (according to your mind) but a very sexually stimulating lover Are you telling me that you would choose the more attractive woman? I think your last observation is very valid. But I believe it has contributed to the legitimacy of my own observation about our modern-day values. Quote:
Yes, that is exactly what I mean. It presumes a lot - and seemingly from a very narrow perspective. |
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... I don't think men compartmentalize sex... I think we treat it like kids treat those chicken McNuggets. Sure, we like them... but we have others to eat so we don't make it too personal. |
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As long as you persist in this attitude, the longer you will keep running into the situations that cause your attitude to persist. You blame it on women. But you have no one to blame but yourselves. |
Blaming women? Sounds like a strawman.
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edit: Haha, too slow. Damn my human fingers! |
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I had placed casual in italics for a reason. It is the category of sex discussed here. This entire thread has to do with casual sex and "standards" related to it. I didn't wanna piss off anybody but I suppose anything that introduces a self-serving gender bias will stir the pot and put a stick up an ass or two. Not that sticks are a bad thing either, as long as it is consensual. C'mon, MM... work with me here. Casual encounters with people outside your normal target area. The sex where last names aren't really that important in comparison to the hands on your hips, the breath on your neck. Novelty over quality. The sex based on a quick spark of interest and a too-small dorm bed or futon. Just do them because they are there. The sex where the physical need outweighs the physical appearance and where the only connection that matters is the connection with the erection. The sex where you don't care about this person as a viable option for the future, that you don't think about how they keep their sock drawer organized or if they wash their hands after they pee. The kind of rabid badger monkey sex that is good for right now, needs to happen immediately, and has an unwritten expiration date that involves a sunrise. (shrugs) I haven't had sex in well over a year. Blame anybody? Not at all. ... ... ... Ergh, except maybe my barber. Shitty haircuts at times. |
Strawman? This is one thread in a series of threads that is based around the trouble guys are having getting laid and rather than question themselves, their perceptions of themselves, their attitudes and their own actions, they blame women for the choices that they make.
Did someone say strawman? |
Jesus Na-Na-Na-Hey-Jude Christ! :shakehead:
This isn't about guys having troubled getting laid... this is thread about guys getting laid with women they normally wouldn't have engaged in such an activity with due to their physical appearance / social stature / etc. There is totally supposed to be all sorts of boner slippage mentioned here. "I'm not evil, I'm horny." Quote:
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This thread has taken several avenues...but I suppose threads like the Ladder Theory and the Perceptions of Women thread (and others of the past) have colored my participation with some of the same people on this thread. It's difficult to remain compartmentalized when you are aware of some of the other overwhelming attitudes towards women that have been expressed here.
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How we mostly play victim to ourselves. How do you think guys feel when they realize that they're "under par" in comparison to their peers? Sucks to be the retard who can't get a number, let alone any kind of physical intimacy. Do we make it difficult or is it just innately difficult? You might say that woman are being treated as sex objects... but what does that say for men? What title and persona am I supposed to assume to be desirable? How can I make myself worthy enough to utilize you as a sex object? Is this the game? I suppose it is. Too much bullshit. ... I wish I was still married. That made life easier. Happy to be stuck to another person fo-eva. I don't at all regret the hot-hot antelope sex with various women that weren't my type, though. The feel of their moist skin on mine as I slept through those nights helped me survive those years without caving to the insanity of physical desire. The beating of the heart, the hand on my chest... that shit was real and while you might be able to buy it, you can't fake it. Hot-hot consensual badger-style crotch-slamming with someone who needed a fix of carnal humanity, too. |
Oh, and for myself on the carnal fly, I'd just as soon fuck a short, balding, overweight, perhaps even slightly trollish looking man than a buff, young Greek god-looking stud. But what it would really come down to is the one who can make the hair stand up on my arms when they look into my eyes. And that doesn't have anything to do with looks or 'niceness.' It has to do with presence. Vital, visceral presence. Just being able to insert penis into vagina just ain't enough. I'd just as soon go home and masturbate.
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But it doesn't make me feel like a piece of meat. I'll be absolutely honest, though, and tell you that it makes me feel hesitant to share certain things about myself here. But I don't feel victimized by it. It's not possible to victimize me. I make my own choices and I deal with those myself. I'm not about to start taking on the consequences of the actions of others. I will stand up and say what I think is right on the behalf of others, though. I think it kind of sucks to feel inadequate and incapable under any circumstances, but 99% of the time those feelings are manifested and perpetuated with the self. That goes for men and women. And games and role-playing are eventually nothing but lies. Maybe you get that temporary gratification that you're looking for with them, but in the end it will always be meaningless. And then what happens when you actually meet someone that you really like and you are pretending to be someone you're not? I don't see the point or the benefit in going to such extents for casual sex. I would think it would be more economical, mentally and otherwise, to hire a prostitute. Quote:
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Please i am not calling bullshit on this i swear, i wish there were more women like you who felt this way. I don't think i've ever met a girl like this or heard a story 3rd person who knew someone who knew someone like that. Just like all these men who posted they would rather have sex with a girl who is ugly but has fantastic personality than a hot chick who is riding the short bus. that is why i love the net, it brings me in contact with people who break the mold that 99.9999% of the people fall into. sorry forgot to add that..... i date based purely on personality now. after being in a long term relationship with a girl who was beautiful but a mental midget i will never trade looks for personality. looks may get me to sample the product, but it is the ingredients that will keep me coming back for more. |
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Sure, people have always glorified physical beauty, and it should be glorified and appreciated. But it is not the be all and end all to a sexual experience. And very often has no part in it at all. Myself, I just prefer a person who is curious and adventurous and uninhibited and liberated. Like me, but with a cock. :p |
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I've already stated my reasons for getting off track, will. Care to address any of my other responses to you which were indeed on topic?
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So it was a compartmentalization issue.
I hope you find yourself with a male reproductive organ soon. |
I'll take that as a no.
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I didn't think so at the time and I still don't. Now obviously there are limits. A 10 who acts like a corpse or a 1 who thinks the karma sutra is for noobs won't work either way. Somewhere there is a middle ground between the two where I'd be happy, but looks still play a big part of the whole thing. Of course its my perception of it, but being sex is mental to such a high degree I can't worry about that. Funny thing about getting older though, is you stop looking at their daughters and start looking more at the moms ;) |
Will,
Has anybody ever told you how cuddly you are? |
Ustwo does in so many words every day. He's a teddy bear underneath the surface.
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He's just using you. :p
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....which of us is the 10, though? |
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(ignores WillRavel / UsTwo swordfight)
I once had a wonderful fling with a pale white girl in a cheetah print bikini. God, that thing was wretched. She was a tiger in the sack, though. ... Cheetah print = dealbreaker in long term relationships. |
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This is a really silly attitude to take. Do you feel that a physically attractive person has less personality or confidence or presence or whatever "it" factor you think they need to make a connection with you? It wouldn't make any sense to seek out someone physically "ugly" because they may have a great personality. Someone pretty is just as likely to be a great person as someone ugly. Less likely to be insecure, to boot. People don't wear their personality on their sleeve. You gotta talk to em first before you can make that sort of connection and learn what kind of person they are. You start with that superficial, physical connection. A recognition that the person you see is physically attractive to you, and you go talk to them to learn the deeper, more significant traits in personality you find attractive. Anyway, on topic: Every single guy i've known has dipped below their usual standards when it's been a long time since they've fucked (had a physical connection?) a woman. It's really not an altruistic act, although the OP tries to make the argument. Both parties are working towards the same goal, the male having to reduce his standard of quality to get quantity (even if that is 1 vs. 0). IMO, it's a role reversal, although the guy acts like a really promiscuous girl in this situation- he gets to be the chooser, instead of the choice. The woman in this situation needs to communicate other qualities attractive to a casual sex hookup; sexual freedom, willingness to experiment, a desire to please, free of disease, etc. The relationship between two individuals looking for a one night stand or casual sex is largely centered around physical wants and needs. They are not looking for more, and the girl having a great personality would matter little to how much they enjoyed the sex. |
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pretty much any place people gather? |
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You start with a superficial attraction. Myself, I am attracted to more subtle qualities. And I've known plenty of men who are physically 'unattractive' who have self-confidence. |
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For me attractiveness is defined by so much more them a persons physical appearance, sure I am not going to complain if the guy fits MY definition of attractiveness but sometimes a guy I find aesthetically pleasing will touch me and I feel nothing. Even worse is when I'll kiss a guy I know intellectually I should find appealing and all I feel is nauseous. I'm not sure exactly why that's true but it is. Other times a guy I would not be attracted to visually will touch me, even something as simple as a hand on the small of my back and my entire body breaks out in goosebumps. I've had kisses that make my knees go weak from guys that I'd never really thought of as attractive before. But as I said I don't know what it is about these people that allows them to have so little or so great a reaction from me on a purely physical level. I'm not saying women are better then men or men are better then women in this case because I know people from both genders that are able to base a decision on whether or not to be intimate with a person purely on the persons phsyical appearance but for me (and maybe mixedmedia from her response to this) sex is a very special time. I let all my barriers down, let myself be completely consumed by the moment, I end up feeling vulnerable and invinceable all at once. I don't think I could share that with someone I did not feel a genuine attraction or affection of some kind for. I will admit I hate the habit guys have of 'rating' women though, I've never heard my female friends do that, with us the guy is either hot or not. None of this 1 - 10 business. |
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I've never really had a rating system as such. I have to catch Melbourne public transport, I can tell you now, I see all kinds and varieties on the trams and trains. There's girls I think are cute, are pretty, are average, then there are the girls I think "I'd totally hit that", or "I'd love to wake up next to that"............... And ever once in a while, there will be a lass who is be no definition hot, be carries herself in such a way and has a certain kind of energy about her that just drives me totally wild. Now, having said all that, on far too many occasions though, I have seen a young girl on the train, thought "My god, she's some sort of godess", only to hear her open her mouth and say something in the most piercing and offensive of bogan voices and instantly though "oh fuck no, not in a million years, I don't care how good looking she is" God I hate bogans, I really, really do. Bogans for those of you who don't know, are Australia's version of uneducated filthy trailer trash. |
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But, in the same breath, I watched the Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer movie the other night - and for all the swooning over Jessica Alba, and all her magazine covers, etc, I found her unattractive, too. I have no idea why people think she's hot. So, it's down to personal tastes. |
I never understood the need some people have to stratify everything, rank things, and assign numbers to them. Isn't it enough to say, "I like that" or "She's attractive" or whatever and leave it at that? Maybe it's a good thing in the workplace where competition will make everyone do their best, but what good does it do to think, "well, she's an 8.5, but the woman next to her is an 8.7, so who cares?"
If there's ever a thread that needed to be paired up and cross-referenced with the Ladder Theory thread, this is it. Quote:
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Reading through this thread has made me come to the realization that some women (I said some) are terribly delusional if they think females aren't as superficial as males are. Hell, at times, women can even be more superficial than men (*Points in the direction of the LL*).
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Many just deny it, it's the entire stigma of 'whore' , 'slut' , etc etc that is placed on any women who just wants to fuck a hot guy. So the more and more who deny it by will, or deny it just to deny it, the more the 'reputation' builds for women.
Men on the other hand will flat out tell people, ya, I'll fuck her coz she is hot. We on the other hand don't have to worry about that stigma of being a whore, coz the more hot bitches we fuck, the ohhh sooo coooool we become!!! yippeee!! |
And there are people who wonder why men have the stereotype we do.
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I've found more often than not, stereotypes have a large base in fact.
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I've found that stereotypes are most often quantified by the least common, yet most obnoxious, denominator.
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oh ok... lets all play pretend now where stereotypes have no link to real life.
:rolleyes: |
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Stereotypes enable perpetuation. And that makes me a sad monkey. ... Back on topic: Escaping from one night stands with minimal evidence is crucial if said person's compatibility involved less than six hours and intense crotch slamming activities. I've never had any issues with stalking, but the AIM handle and phone # are vulnerable to said nonsense. |
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Except the part about loving poverty. No one loves poverty. |
Ya know, IL... if you were a girl... I'd want to have angry sex with you.
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But just because a stereotype has an ounce of truth does not make it generalizable to the whole population. Several male members have proven just that, on this thread and others. Personally, I'm glad to be married to someone who doesn't fit the stereotype of what men are socialized to be, in almost every way possible. But each to their own... I'm quite sure that there are plenty of women who appreciate conformity to the male stereotype as a mark of ground-shaking character and integrity. :thumbsup: |
(Heh!)
Paris could be a nerd if she was smarter. In the meantime, she's just a ____. I apologize to mm, abaya, and mandy, but Crompsin, you might have labelled this FMO. Except that, of course, things like that aren't tolerated in (any guesses?)? This most perfect of all possible worlds seems to have failed US in this case. ...It didn't in the first place. |
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... OurCrazyModern?: Yeah, I labeled it with the "Men" prefix because of the directed content of the OP, not because I didn't want women responding. Women should totally respond to this kinda crap... since, ya know, they're the "sought-after commodity" in the "meat market" of the "primal male mind." Last time I checked? It takes two to tango in a one night stand. Ugliness is debatable, especially when you're horny / drunk / desperate. Yeah, that two to tango part... *looks down at his hand* No, buddy... you don't count. Heh. Heh-heh. This thread did a good job of blowing out like a Firestone tire on a late '90s Ford Explorer, but I got a few laughs from those who followed the "tell a weird one night stand story" subplot. So much for articles... I might have to stick to my much less poetic personal queries for any future threads. ... Menoman is my hero. He masturbates with Brillo pads. And likes it. |
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I've waded through bullshit way deeper than this thread before. I think it's funny that you feel like you have to segregate yourselves into a corner of a website whose women, for the most part, love men, love sex, will post naked pictures of themselves for you and don't start threads in which they talk about how fucked-up men are. Find me one thread in the Ladies' Lounge that was created in order to rant about the failings of men as a gender. And believe me, you guys can whine all night and day about the chick who didn't fuck you or the girl that dumped you for a rich guy, but that doesn't even come close to the fucked-up hell realms that I have been through in the company of men. Yet, I will stand here and say that I love men. And at first it really irritated me, but now I'm really glad that you guys have segregated yourselves in this way for me. Because now, when I post nekkid pictures of myself in my journal, I know which men to include on my Buddy list. :p |
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Honestly I have to wonder if I were 20 after a girl I really loved dumped me, or if I wasn't lucky and found my wife about a year later, how I'd have responded to a post like this, don't be too hard on them. |
I haven't posted them...yet. Actually, I haven't even taken them, yet. I'm working my way to that point...
And I don't think I'm being too hard on them. You know, if in my heart I didn't really care, I wouldn't say anything. |
Well this is an interesting post lol. I will say reading it pissed me off. But I can see where some guys could come from. Somewhat. To what that guy 'who loves ugly chicks' said, I dissagree about any guy would be willing to cheat on their woman. I say, if a woman does everything her man sexually wants to him and as often as he wants it, he will not stray away-unless he is a pig. I try my hardest and I know I am not ugly in that sense, but I do it becuase I love my guy. If guys are straying on their women, then the woman isn't trying hard enough. Plus, it should be mutual from the guys to try hard too. Its that 50-50 deal, though in my book, its 100/100 from both. I will say being a girl, I have dated ALOT of ugly men in my life lol, but I could only have slept with good-looking ones. Granted, I have only had sex with one man in my life, and the same with him with girls. We were eachothers firsts so neither of us can say we were 'with' any ugly people. Well, I could if you count hand-jobs, but my man never got with any woman in that sence-which made it that much easier to be less self-concious lol. So yes. That is my two sense. Sorry if it made no sense lol.
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I was convinced LL was for women only. The advertizing that says "no men allowed" is tic?
Now, that's interesting. I've never done anybody that I considered ugly. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
It is for women only. And in there you will mainly find women talking about vaginal health and places to buy a good bra. But men can go in there and peruse the threads all they like. Perhaps it is worthwhile to have a place women can go to talk about their breasts without some dude in there cracking boob jokes.
The logic is that much of TFP is 'The Men's Room,' in case you haven't noticed. But at any rate, the Ladies Lounge is very lightly used so there really isn't much of an issue unless you want to make one of it. |
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Okay, I'll tell bloodyrose that there are no absolutes in this world. Not all men are pigs. Not all women are scheming opportunists. And not all people in committed relationships cheat on their partners because their partners aren't keeping them sexually satisfied. (After all, sometimes women cheat on men, too. *gasp*) But if anyone wants to, again, base their arguments on such unsupportable hogwash then go right ahead. "verbally assassinated by another woman" :lol: that's rich.... |
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Got a picture of the crime taking place, too: http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a13...dingTarget.jpg ... MM, I'd suggest that the individual's life experience is, as you so eloquently put it, "unsupportable hogwash." |
uh, I'm sorry, is that what I said?
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Yeah, you said: "unsupportable hogwash." I even checked twice.
Opinions. Fun stuff. *whistles "Getting to Know You"* |
well, I said unsupportable hogwash, but in a totally different context
and, you know, I'm all for opinions, but when someone's opinion takes the form of an absolute statement about human behavior, that's just begging for some quick and painless repartee *hums Run, Woman, Run* :p Actually I'm only humming it 'cause it was on a minute ago. |
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The reason so many people cheat is that they're typically a subset of the 90% of people who suck. |
I was going to comment on BR's post last night but it pissed me off too much to post and make any sense lol
Saying that keeping your man sexually satisfied 100% of the time and he wont stray is bullshit. What you have stated makes it appear that the only thing worth value in a relationship is sex and thats just not true. |
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Pff. Isn't a pity fuck when you have sex with the person cuz you feel bad for them? In that case, the last half of my failed relationships have been filled with 100% pity fucking. |
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There's also more pressure on a man to get laid than there is on a woman. The biological pressure alone is significant, and it seems there aren't many women who really understand this. It's sort of like having to pee. Often, you can easily hold it until you get home. Sometimes you just have to find a nearby restroom that you would prefer to avoid. But if you wait long enough, you may find yourself in an alley behind a dumpster, looking over your shoulder and hoping that nobody sees you. Sure, you'd prefer to do your business in more pleasant environs, but you're getting antsy and your body is screaming at you "TAKE CARE OF THIS NOW!" Now, it's not just biology exerting pressure. If it were, rubbing one out would always suffice. But a hand is a poor substitute for a vagina, mainly because of what's attatched to it. Having sex with another person is, of course, a much more rewarding experience; there's stuff you get with sex that you never get from whacking off. The same kind of urgency can apply to getting all of this extra stuff. On top of all this, there's the psychological pressure. Women have to deal with societal judgements and pressure concering "slutty" behavior. Many of them internalize this and begin judging themselves. Similarly, men deal with and internalize societal judgement and pressure concerning our ability to get some. The sweet release of masturbation is tempered by a bitter aftertaste - the realization that you're getting a one-arm workout because you weren't able to get a woman to join you. This is cumulative; the longer you go without getting laid, the more acutely you feel the shame. The pressure from all of these sources combines to form a potent motivator, an almost irresistable urge to find someone, anyone, to go home with. This is something that most women don't seem to have any direct experience with. |
^Methinks you've spent a bit too much time analyzing things... >_>
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I can admit to sleeping with people to get over a relationship or to just feel close to someone or to feel dominance or to fuck someone up. Plenty of women and men have those experiences. Urban Dictionary defines pity fuck as any sex motivated by pity rather than desire. I suppose self-pity counts (your definition) but so does feeling sorry for the other person. |
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This is why I said what I said: Quote:
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Women don't normally ask for the "pity fuck" because their sexuality isn't more stereotypically tied in to their self image and happiness. If a guy is feeling down, the stereotypical response is to go out and get laid. This does not seem to be the case for women- in fact, it seems to be the exact opposite. When women are being down on themselves, it seems the last thing they want is sex or any other form of intimacy.
But that's just personal observation on stereotypes; obviously it's not a universal truth or anything. |
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But you make a point, guys deal with the emotions in a completely different way to females a lot of the time. |
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I have a hard time believing you speak on behalf of all men! :D |
He doesn't speak on behalf of all men, But he's right. Men just don't have the mentality to fuck beneath themselves without some mind altering substance, or they can't do better for whatever reason for extended periods of time.
Pity fucking is a women only business for the most part. |
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But granted, I don't see what is insane by saying the quality of sex a person is getting at home isn't always the issue when they pursue extramarital affairs. Sometimes people do cheat because they aren't getting the sex they want at home. Sometimes they do it because of stress. Sometimes they do it because they are drunk. Sometimes they do it because they are excited by fucking someone new. Sometimes they do it because they'll fuck anything that moves. etc, etc, etc. This was my point. |
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(drinks a big glass of C19H28O2)
Liquid Conflict. |
Quick.. where's the auntie dote!!
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Well, I was approaching it from knee-jerk angle of presumptive reasoning. ;)
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Okay I figured I would clarify some things up here to what I said. People seem to think its alright to assume here on this forum sometimes and don't actually take the time to think about things before they write them. First off, I NEVER said that its a womans job to be a slave for her man. I mean it that guys AND girls have to be %100 sexually active for their partner, BOTH need to be that way. I was just focusing on the men because well duh, thats what the original person who created this topic was talking about that stray. And to say that a relationship is not about sec, is bullshit. Take a look at all relationships, ever notice how married couples for many years joke about how they don't even know what sex is anymore? I bet if you got down to it, they will tell you they are miserable with their relationship. I know that its not the first thing on people's minds, but sex is a very big factor in a relationship. Ever notice in a relationship, if something is going wrong and both aren't happy that no sex is going on? Its simple, its just most people don't want to admit thats whats wrong with alot of marriages. That and not communicating. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of other factors of why relationships get ruined and why people cheat, but sex as I have seen it every time, is a key factor. So no its not just men who cheat or need to be there sexually 100% for woman, its the same damn thing the other way around for the woman too.
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Well, just in my own experience, I've found that sex starts to lose it's attraction in a relationship once other factors (resentment, unhappiness, stress of child-rearing, money problems, etc.) start to take their toll on the feelings of intimacy between two people.
Seems to me you are still trying to place ultimatums on mature relationships when the truth is the hardships of living and the stresses they place on people trying to maintain them cannot always be explained in a nutshell. Sex is important, but it is not the be-all and end-all of a marriage. More important than the act is the intimacy that makes it more than just fucking. |
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It is often said that sexual problems are "a symptom" of other problems in a relationship. True, but it is just as likely that the problem IS SEX. If one partner is naturally less inclined to sexual activity or is a sexual prude, it is a huge problem for the relationship. Understand that it may be more acceptable to say the problem has its origin in "lack of communication" (for example) because of the social stigma against overvaluing sex. In this society, admitting that bad sex is the reason for your relationship problems is to suggest that you are hormone-driven and shallow. |
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I'm usually someone who can understand putting the label of "majority" or "people" as you've put it, fairly synonymous in this situation I think, on others and finding that statements will hold true.
But as someone who has been in long term relationships, I think the type of person you are describing is most definate the minority IL. I can agree that sometimes a problem will be shuffled aside, until a catalyst comes into play such as lack of sex. But typically no sex is not that catalyst, there are far more catalysts that will occur in a good relationship other than no sex. Firstly, the fact that a problem even exists is usually enough to begin the process of finding it and dealing with it. |
Yes, yes... sex is a relationship thermometer... warning when things get too cold.
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