why is NOT cheating looked so poorly upon?
 

i have a question, an odd question that I throw to the wise folk of TFP. I have a feeling what the answer will be, but fail to understand why.

Within the last 2 weeks, I have been put in this situation 3 times, and its far from pleasant, and one of which was particularly difficult.

Each time I have been placed in a position to cheat with another person.

I would not be cheating on anyone as such (I'm single, and have been for over 6months), but the other person has been in a relationship, of varying degrees of seriousness.

I say 'as such' because at the end of the day, I feel that if I were to follow through, I would see myself as cheating on someone - their partner.

Now, given all 3 times this has happened, I have been on the drink (not blackout drunk, but socially relaxed thats for sure), and especially the last time, has been incredibly difficult to resist... yet each time, I have resisted the urge to reciprocate any advances made towards me, because in my mind, its not the done thing.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to say no to a naked female, ready for it when you've given the turps a fair kicking, and its been quite some time since your 'last'?

I made it known to the last girl that I have very strong feelings for her - we are very good friends and really 'connect' and have for quite some time - but as much as I would like to be with her, I will not act on them as no matter how much I would enjoy it, I just cannot morally bring myself to do it because there is another guy on the scene.

I have an incling that she too is interested, but feels that her current situation is the safest option, even though she is not completely happy. Now, if she were to leave him for me (which is not all that unlikely), as long as she had broken ties with him, I'd be fine with it. I don't consider that to be wrong (i daresay that the other guy will, but I have not done anything wrong. If she was happy with you, she would have stayed)

So why not cheat? 2 reasons for me personally
1. It was the only piece of advice in relation to females my old man ever gave me. If she's taken, she's out of bounds. Anything else with regard to females, you can work out for yourself (his words) - its part of life. But if she's taken - back off.

2. It is a horrible feeling to have been cheated on, and even though I may not know their partner, no-one deserves to have that put upon them.

Now, I have spoken to a few people about this (male and female), and an alarming number of them (both male & female again) said 'why didnt you.. it was there ready for you? Your Crazy!'

So why is it, when presented with an opportunity such as this, considered to be acceptable to be 'that guy' if you're not the one being cheated on, but if it were you the one being cheated on, you'd want nothing less than their balls in a vice if it happened to you?

I've been the "unlucky guy" in this situation. Happened very early in my love career, and I swore that I would never do it myself because, as you stated, it is a horrible feeling.

I can't answer to WHY it's acceptable to be the "lucky guy", except that in my book, it's unacceptable. There's plenty of players when it comes time to play the field.

Congratulations, you're a human with the ability to empathise...

Those are your morals, and by God, stick to them. There aren't enough people like you.

Morals. Values. Whatever you want to call it. You possess a moral code that is, in my humble little opinion, to be admired, not belittle. It takes a lot of fortitude to stand up and do what you know is right, when confronted with such temptation. So, no matter what else, frozenstellar, I say good on you. And I say that as a man who, when confronted with your situation, failed to take that highroad.

You have my admiration Frozenstellar

It is an interesting topic, I've been put in the position to be that guy, and I have to say, I was seriously considering it:sad:

Their is the position of "I'm not responsible for someone else's problems", and while there is an element of truth to that, it's not a position I would personally take.

I can put my self in the position of someone being cheated on, I have been cheated on, it sucks, so I certainly strive not to be that guy.

There are some people who just make mistakes, others who make bad choices, and others who simply don't give a fuck about anyone else's feelings bar their own. It's the latter you have to really watch out for.

It has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them. If they're not praising you for taking the high road out of a tempting situation, then you might question THEIR character... not yours. No offense to your peeps, but seriously, what kind of friends would encourage someone to be "that guy"? Friends (in my opinion) are supposed to help each other become better people, not help each other become pieces of shit.

These friends of yours are just posturing for you. If cheating was not looked poorly upon, there'd be no Jerry Springer show.

Good for you averting the nasty, unnecessary drama of cheating.

to the title of the OP... it is?

Agreed - you are doing the better, the right thing here.
My question is... would you want to be involved with someone who would consider cheating during a monogamous relationship, since you consider cheating so wrong? If she's into you, then she needs to clear up her shit... even if it is really really tempting and you have an amazing connection. Because this is how you feel about it. If you didn't have a problem helping her cheat, I wouldn't ask.

Have been the cheater and have been the cheated. Both left me feeling horrible.

Put your pants on and walk out the door. Don't look back.

at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone says to you. if cheating would have made you feel horrible, then you did the right thing. others may have said "you should have gone for it" but they either are talking a good game, they weren't there in your shoes, or they have a different moral/ethical code. either way, if you can wake up and look at yourself in the mirror, you win.

i may still regret the time i turned down my one and only chance for a threesome, but i didn't cheat, which would have stayed with me longer than anything...

Were I single, and she was attractive, I would feel no moral requirement to avoid having sex with her. You might think I'm immoral, and you'd be right, from the viewpoint of your moral system.

But from my moral viewpoint, this is silly. Are you in the relationship? Are you the one who agreed to be faithful? Are you capable of deciding what is best for him? Or her? How do you know how he would feel? And why are you responsible for the feelings of someone you do not know, who you have not made any sort of accord with?

She's the one being unfaithful, she's the one breaking the "rules." I feel no need to save the feelings of another, when it is not my action hurting their feelings, but hers.

If someone makes an agreement, whether written or verbal, whether formal or informal, it is THEIR responsibility to maintain the provisions of that agreement. If I dissuade them from maintaining the agreement without duress, I am only guilty of being convincing. THEY still had to make the choice to break it. And THEY are the ones responsible for that decision.

This moral system is also strongly backed by US contract law. I don't see how a monogamous relationship agreement is different than any other contract we make, sign, or agree to.

In short:If my girlfriend fucks another guy without my permission, I will be mad at her. I will wonder why she decided to break an monogamous agreement with me, and I will be upset that she cares so little for my feelings. I wouldn't hold it against the guy at all. He obviously convinced her that he had something I didn't, so more power to him!

I think a more accurate topic line would be 'why is cheating WITH someone....'

Since, she's the only one who would be cheating. If your friends with both parties, it's a pretty underhanded scummy thing to do. If you don't know the guy and I'd say it doesn't carry much more emotional impact than hooking up with someone who's single. Unless they're married, then that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Edit: Jinksy posted while I was typing, and I wholeheartedly agree on all counts, with one caveat. I find it ungentlemanly to allow someone to do something drunk that they wouldn't do sober. Once you remove booze from the equation, then the only moral failing (if any) is theirs.

P.S. NOT cheating is only looked down upon by douchebags who aren't getting any and have never had a real relationship. If you took the harder road (no pun intended), that should be sufficient indication of your moral fiber.

RE: The alcohol; if she got herself that drunk, then she's still responsible for the drinking and she's responsible for any actions she herself makes while drunk.

This is a thin line, however. If she wanted to give some guy a blow job, then that's totally her action and her responsibility. If she had sex with someone else, then I'd probably agree with you. That's a shared responsibility, because the action is not entirely hers.

and EDIT: "P.S. NOT cheating is only looked down upon by douchebags who aren't getting any and have never had a real relationship."

I can't help notice the timeliness of this, and I wonder if it's directed at me. I "look down" on not cheating in that I think it's a bit silly to waste an opportunity attempting to avoid having someone else's actions hurt a third individual you're not acquainted with. And yet, I'm not a douchebag, I do get some, and I have a great relationship.

As long as a blowjob involves two people, it's shared responsibility. Pumping your head up and down on a dick is the same as pumping your vag up and down on a dick.

EDIT: It wasn't directed at you Jinn. The OP stated that he had moral qualms with cheating because he was able to envision himself in the other guy's shoes. He'd have hurt the guy and the girl and ultimately himself. Three people.

But your idea of it being silly to waste an opportunity to exploit someone out of consideration for an unknown third party.... hm, isn't that what's driven the environmental crisis, the war, the poverty in underdeveloped countries, the pollution in industrializing countries struggling to make our plastic McDonalds toys....

Uh yeah, being considerate like that is commendable.

From what I've seen talking to people about this over the years, is that are two predominate schools of thought.

The first is that you are not responsible for another's morality. If they choose to cheat, YOU are not cheating, so if you want to have sex with them, do it, its not your business.

The other is that if you know they are cheating you are guilty by facilitation. You may not be cheating but you are aiding them in their cheating which is morally wrong. Your actions will be potentially causing pain and suffering to another.

I fall into the second camp. I've never cheated or been cheated on (that I know of) but I'd not want to be involved in that sort of thing. There are limits of course and I'm sure I could invent a situation where having sex with someone cheating was ok, but as a moral compass I'd rather not be involved in that sort of thing.

I think of it like being a gun salesman. If you know the gun you are selling is going to be used to attempt murder and you sell it anyways, you are guilty by facilitating what you knew would be a crime.

I say kudos to you. It shows you respect others, and are not worried with whether they know it ever happened or not, which makes it seem much more genuine IMHO. Personally, I have been cheated on, and know how it feels, so I don't want to be part of that for anyone either.

-Will

heres the important thing to consider...


I think i'd be turned off entirely by the fact that she'd be willing to cheat. Put yourself in the position 2 months later, assuming she'd grew a pair and broke it off with her current boyfriend. whats to say she wouldn't leave you at home, head to the bar, and try to cheat on you with yet another guy?

the mere fact that she'd put herself in that situation would just instantly destroy my trust that a relationship with her would be able to go anywhere.

What? I think you misunderstand, sir. Noone is advising you to DATE cheaters. That's a terrible idea, and your absolutely right about the projected outcome. I though "Cheats with you, cheats on you" is a pretty well established pattern by this point in human history.

We are just arguing that it's not neccessarily morally wrong to sleep with them.

I applaud you for doing what you feel comfortable doing. Especially where sex is concerned, but in other areas as well, it is important not to deviate from where you feel comfortable, even though is can be terribly hard (OK, that pun was intended). For my part, I have been cheated on, and have cheated with someone, but never cheated ON my girlfriends. It is strange how perspective changes one's opinion of this subject. I could not live with myself if I cheated, as I would see it as weakness, and an act that could not be undone. Do people feel differently if the individuals are married, versus "just" in a relationship?

If you buy diamonds knowing full well the 'blood diamond' effect and the untold deaths it causes, are you not guilty by facilitation?

There are plenty of instances where one could note that your behavior lead ANOTHER individual to cause pain upon a third party. I think the buck stops with the person who made the decision to cause pain, not the one who facilitated it.

you don't have to create a whole thread to morally justify sticking your dick in some cheating harlot. Just realize that that is all she is, the fact that the opportunity presented itself at all says wonders about her character.

If she was a decent woman she'd dump the guy she was with if she's so unhappy instead of being a coward and trying to have her cake and eat it too. that takes a morally sound woman who knows what she wants in a man though. That might just be too much for some people to handle.

I realize you don't want to facilitate cheating in any way, but once she offers, she is 110% guilty as can be. Whether you had sex with her or not makes 0 difference in terms violating the rules/trust of a monogamous relationship. I don't want to be with a girl who isn't screwing around on me just because she keeps getting turned down. I want to be with a girl who doesn't want to screw around on me. The responsibilty to not cheat is hers and only hers. In fact I'd go so far as to say had you had a one night stand with her, you should have found the guy and told him because in the long run you would be doing him a favor. He should thank you, not be pissed at you. In fact, if you ask any of my close friends they'll tell you I've alread told them if they get the chance to sleep with a my girlfriend, I don't care whether or not they do, so long as they tell me she offered. It isn't their responsiblity to make sure she's not a dirty cheater, it's hers.

PS- Whether alcohol was involved or not makes no difference, if she can't keep her pants on when she gets drunk, she already knows it and again - it's her responsibilty to make sure she doesn't get that drunk.

I respect your understanding of the feelings of those who would be the victims. You are responsible for your own morality, and mart of that morality is the golden rule. In doing the women, you're doing upon their partner. And I'm sure had the roles been reversed you'd not want one of them to shag your girl. Meanwhile, these women are bad people. Cheaters are problems, and not worth your time.

This is why people don't buy blood diamonds.

It sounds like Jinn is trying to absolve the individual of social responsibility - blame the diamond hunters, blame the President, blame the sweatshop overlord, blame the druglords and junkies but never take responsibility for the fact that you buy diamonds (thus feeding the blood diamond trade), you allowed the President to declare and wage war preemptively, you happily buy Walmart clothing (feeding the sweatshop industry), and you allow your country to give weapons to drug cartels and provide money to dangerous people for the sake of keeping crop prices cheap.

I just find that "it's not my fault/ it's not my problem" mentality allows people to stay in their delusional safety bubble. Worldwide change starts on an individual basis. We recycle even though we're not terribly bothered by global climate change (just some strange weather once in awhile) - but the generations afterwards will be hugely affected by what we do now.

We live in a global society. Accountability is necessary because eventually, everything will come back to us (see our old friends Bin Laden and Hussein and how a relationship between two Middle Easterners and a handful of American businessmen and politicians has affected the rest of the world).

I would do as Frozen, simply because I wouldn't like to be put in the other guys shoes. It would hurt too much if it got found out.
Your dad has good advice. :)

Try it some time.

Treated hypothetically, it's an isolated incident where someone had more to offer than you did. In practice, it triggers behavior patterns that reduce trust and communication. It makes you wonder if this was merely the first time you found out. It makes you wonder where she really might be going every time she walks out the door, and who she's talking to when she's on the phone. This speculation can and will feed on itself.

Then maybe she starts getting angry and defensive. Maybe in the heat of argument, she'll blame you for causing it to happen. How thick is your skin? How sure are you of yourself? You'll find out.

It's not just a monogamous agreement. It's not a contract, either. It's a relationship founded on a reasonable expectation of monogamy. It's two people trying to stick together in the world. Once the foundation goes, what's left? What is it that you're still doing at that point?

To me, the very basis of a relationship is that you're two people choosing each other over the others.

(Edited for clarity.)

Maybe I lack moral compass, maybe its because I still would consider myself young... but seriously.. to me the world and people's relationships in society sometimes seem so confusing and twisted.. I know I have avoided the high road like plague :\

my perspective is as follows: on one hand, i understand jinn's arguments and technically agree with them. i don't think you're responsible for another's relationship - and ultimately it's not you who would be breaking your word. if you had slept with one of these chicks, i'm sure you'd be just fine the next day...and who can say what affect you might have on her / their relationship? you might force them back together, you might break up a bad relationship...however, as others have pointed out, you can't waste your time worrying about what happens to others, as it's completely out of your control.

to me, you have to ask yourself 'how important is this particular opportunity for making the sex? in the grand scheme, is it worth it?'

i inevitably come up with a big fucking 'NO'. you get involved in a shit storm of melodrama...maybe not every time, but often enough. as has been pointed out, you know in the back of your mind that you just caused some other guy a lot of pain, and you know that karma is a bitch and eventually it'll come back to haunt you. you know you could have just jacked off, like a good vince vega, and all of this would never have happened.

in the final analysis, your friend's comments are probably largely fueled by the fact that they weren't there, they're not involved, and maybe they don't often get laid, etc....like many normal guys. what they say, when they are not in the position of having to live with the ramifications, is completely irrelevant. wait and see what they do when they have to make the choices you have had to make.

wow.. what a response - what a mixed response, one which I really wasn't expecting. I definately can see Jinn's argument - it is their relationship, and I'm not responsible, but I'l have to put it down to my POV that as a person, its not something I can bring myself to do. Yeah, i'm young, I dont get a lot, and probably should pounce when the opportunities present themselves, but its something I feel so strongly about, I personally would be dissapointed with myself if I went through with it.

interestingly enough, the more I've thought about this situation, the messier it gets. sure, he's out for my head to roll - he made that plenty clear last night when our paths crossed for drinks after work. but his beef isn't with me, I've done nothing wrong, and having given the scenario more thought, I'm playing with fire if I were to attempt to hook up with her, given her current position.

I agree completely. I would break up with her on the spot; I wasn't somehow saying that I'd be upset but okay with it, just that I wouldn't blame the guy. It'd be a violation of the contract, and I would therefore withdraw my (voluntary) participation in it. Particularly since I've given all my girlfriends the option to amend the contract to allow them to have sex with other people, provided they notify me first.

And frozen; at this point I wouldn't recommend doing anything with the girl. While I might hold the belief that it's not the other person's responsibility, this line of thought is definitely in the minority. Most people cannot separate the two, and would hold the guy just as responsible. And if you think that physical violence is on the line, it's really not a great idea to push it, in my experience.

It's rare for someone to be watching out for 'the other guy' especialy when shes commin' at ya. Something else to consider is if she's willing to cheat on someone with you who's to say she won't do the the same with you.

Fuck!

Be happy with yourself and in yourself.

I only understand part of the rest of this (no doubt lucid) advice.

I guess the other advice would be:

Don't stick your dick in the other guy's pie.

yeah, some people have a moral fiber deficiency :)

I find that cheaters usually come from a broken family. They were raised with divorced or one or no parent(s) and never learned what strong family value is. All the trashy girls I met always come from a garbage family that should be on the jerry springer show.

Well if that isn't the king of sweeping generalizations.

Its true what I said. If you involve yourself with a girl with a strong close family with both original parents, you wont have to worry that they grew up all screwed up and never learned how to keep a relationship sacred.

Divorce is just in style or something. Even if you cough bad a girl will leave you. Just is cheating is in fashion too. It is being promoted in shows and all over tv. The world is just so corrupted in this day and age.

Now that gay marriage is legal which is a joke whats next to come? Legalization of beatiality or incest??

There is way too many people in the world and thats why its all fucked up!

The fantastical never-ending story of my very first love was marred by broken agreement of monogamy on her part (thanks bitch). I definitely know what it means to be cheated on. In desperate retaliation, I learned to respond over time by banging all her friends.

...ahh the simple genius of the 18 year old mind. Become what you loath.

But having been through that wretched experience so many years ago, I to this day cannot help but find myself suddenly and incontrovertibly uninterested when the girl making a pass at me lets it slip that she's in a relationship.

I cannot shake the empathy. I cannot see beyond the "You just admitted you are a cheater and now -- giggle giggle -- you want some cock?"

So that kills my buzz, alone in a room with a willing and naked femme fatal or no.

And personally, for my own relationships: I agree with Johnny Rotten: