Penn and Teller call Bullshit on Circumcision (NSFW)
 

Let's get this debate going again.

The video is a cringer. It basicly says that circumcision as a standard procedure, is a farce.

I agree with it. I think circumcision is useless and damages an otherwise great penis.

Agreed. I am openly outspoken about it and will start an argument with anyone who tries to tell me that it's important for anything other than a religious tradition. Bullshit.

I just watched this video a few days ago. Good lord it sounds painful for the babies.

In the video, it says that the foreskin is rolled back during penetration forming "bumps" to provide further stimulation to the walls of the vagina in the same manner as a ribbed condom. It correlates with an article I read a while ago claiming that there's a greater ratio of women achieving orgasm from having sex with uncut men than cut men. Can any one else verify this?


Oh, I just saw this article posted in another forum about how circumcision helps protect against HIV. I'm skeptical of it though. How exactly does it help? The article doesn't explain...

http://iht.com/articles/2007/04/15/news/aids.php?page=1

I'm circumcised. I sure as heck dont remember it, or feel like I'm somehow short-changed. everything seems to operate well...so meh.

its just another religious custom that may have had some theorized benefit at the time. There are plenty of religious customs that when looked at analytically, are irrational.

I had all girls, but I wouldn't have wanted that done to a boy, if I'd had one. My grandmother didn't have any of her 4 sons cut. None of them have had any of the 'severe problems' cited by medical 'experts.'

fore is more!

This shall be my mantra. I love my foreskin, I mean come on... if I didn't have it, where would I keep my spare key and buttons I find every so often?

There are a few states which stopped paying for the procedure for poor mothers on medicaid now, but I'm surprised it hasn't happened nationwide. I think the only reason it contiinues is because doctors can make a few extra c-notes and religious tradition makes you look like you are against islam or judism if you question it.

Penn and Teller do a great job, and I wish they would broadcast this (or at least a PG version without the restoration stuff) on PBS.

i'm still pretty much in favor of circumcision. perhaps its just because my boy is cut; and if a 'lil pigglet ever gets thrown out from the loamy crest of an unfortunate maiden whom i have thrown myself upon, well that little pigglet is going to look as much like old dad as i can make him.

as for other reasons, the wiki article gives a few decent indications that there may, in fact, be some health benefits to the procedure. i can understand the genital mutilation arguments; i don't find them overwhelmingly compelling inside sociological context, but i can certainly understand that viewpoint.

Oh man, I can't help but cringe at the fact that I'm on Crack's side of this debate.:wave: And since we are talking about sexuality here, I couldn't imagine jerking off or getting a hand-job without my foreskin.

I'm of the same mindset. While I have wondered what it would be like with a foreskin, I don't miss it or worry about it. Everything functions correctly and has given me (and a few lucky women) quite a bit of pleasure over the years.

The only advantage I can think of for being cut (and this only applies to the small percentage of guys who are too lazy to wash, so please don't take this as a blanket statement) is the lack of, ehr, "cheese". Ewww.

Exactly. I have no idea how the cut guys do it. None of my boys will be cut, if I have any.

The problem with anti-circumcision testimonials is that they're self-selected.
I have a friend who was circumcised as an adult. When I found out about it, I asked if there was any difference before and after. He hadn't noticed anything. I'd wager most guys with a foreskin are happy with their equipment and most guys without a foreskin are happy with their equipment.

Having been through a big long debate about this subject elsewhere which I have no interest in repeating... It's right about neutral as for as rational justifications go (I.E. medical risk/benefit analysis).

So you're left with aesthetics and tradition... making it near purely a matter of opinion.

But whose opinion is it? It certainly isn't the baby boy's opinion, but it's the parents who are trying to do what they feel is right. And when doctors, nurses and other family members are for it, and think that it needs to be surgectly modified, it is hard to say no and consider what the owner of that foreskin would want to do with it. Plus, you hardly ever heard the good parts of having a foreskin or why it is there prior to the Internet. And I doubt my parents asked the doctor "why is having a foreskin a good thing?".

The only benefit about getting it done as a baby is that it beats getting it done when you are 8-12 years old like in some parts of the world. But that gets into the religious reasons for getting it done, which I don't like. If you wait until you are an adult to get it done, then it is your decision and hopefully it isn't a cosmetic one to make you look like other people who live by you, or because you got teased growing up. That will probably be less likely now that the number of uncircumcised boys is increasing, and if 50% of them aren't cut, it is hard to pick on just one or two.

I've just never been a fan of the turtle neck look...

I'm the father of two boys who are both un-cut. Aside from ancient religious beliefs, the only other valid reason for elective circumcision is cleanliness. Regular baths take care of that.

Social conformity is not a valid reason for medical procedures. In today's world circumcision amounts to nothing more than cosmetic surgery for infants.

I see someone else has already touched on this but

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070223/D8NF543O3.html

As for how it helps according to the article

Why is it the people who never got circumcised are the most shrill proponents of banning it?

You know, if being circumcised was bad, wouldn't all us cut guys be jumping up and down demanding it be banned?

At the end of the day, the only medical evidence for or against circumcision tends to favour being cut.

A rather good point, I'd say. As is the reduced HIV risk, which tends to generally supported by reliable, unbiased sources.

Show me a medical study that shows that being cut is good and I'll show you one that says the opposite.

On the other hand, what kind of positive can you gain from removing part of your body? Evolution-wise, it makes no sense.

This is true. However, the net advantage of circumcision isn't very large. Considering it's unnecessary, the marginal health benefit is insignificant.

The only interesting topic on this subject is, as ASU2003 has pointed out, whether it's right for parents to be allowed to make aesthetic or religious choices for children when that choice doesn't seem to serve the interests of the child.

I didn't watch the above video, but I watched something I'll guess was similar in a Human Sexuality class in college. After it was done, I swore I'd never cut a son of mine.

Hubby is circ'd but agreed that there was no valid reason to get it done. If people want to get their son cut...fine with me. I chose not to, and I don't have any regrets.

I watched the video and agree with it. Seeing that the American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't recommend it pretty much sums it up.

Apparently washing the penis (for basic hygiene) and wearing a condom is too difficult in the minds of these sadists. Cut it off instead!!

I wouldn't go that far in saying that they are unbiased. I think they stop the studies early because they have the results they are looking for, not because in 5 years the numbers will still be 50% higher HIV rates for the uncircumcised. And it was something like out of 5000 guys 40 uncircumcised guys got HIV and 20 circumcised ones came down with it. And we don't know how many of the women these men slept with who were infected either. So, does the foreskin make catching HIV easier or were the uncircumcised guys having more sex, riskier sex and being unlucky in picking HIV positive partners?
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html


Now having said that, I've seen better explainations of how HIV infects through the mucous membranes (inner foreskin) easier than through external skin, but at the same time, that researcher thought that the better course of action was to develop a cream to protect both the male and female from infection through the inner foreskin and vagina.
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...ticlekey=79688


A few years ago, they 'said' that the foreskin was responsible for cervical cancer, but that excuse won't work as well anymore since there is a pretty good vaccine against HPV now. And once there is a vaccine against HIV, they will have to figure out something else.

I am circumsized but did not have my son cut. I could not see any real reason to do it to him other than conformity.

Soap and water take care of the cleanliness issue.
I am an atheist so that takes care of the religion thing.
Safe sex takes care of the HIV thing.

If he wants to be cut, it can be his decision.

so how do you feel about infant intersex surgery?

Neither do tattoos and piercings, yet there are millions of evolutionary deadends lining up to get it done.

:p

As for the medical studies - OK, give me a little bit and I bet the studies weigh more heavily on the side of pro-circumcision than anti.

I'm cut and quite happy that it was done to me.

Sorry all you au natural guys, but I have had many a fine young woman squeal with delite (and relief) at the fact that I am a convertable. In fact, I have even known several women (in the carnal sense) who have told me that they refuse to give oral to a man who is uncircumsized. My last GF was very vocal about this. She had fellated more than a few cocks in her life (she was a champ at it) and said that she never sucked an uncut man's cock that didn't smell - even right out of the shower. I've had more than one woman tell me the same thing in fact.

I have only met one woman who has ever said that she prefered uncut and she was from Poland where all the men are uncut pretty much.

The kid in the video may be crying now, but in 16 or so years when the women are sucking on that cut cock, he won't even remember (or think about) that moment when he was first born. I say, help the kid in every way to get all the blow jobs in life he can.

So what you're saying is, you're trendy.

Except that tonsils get removed all the time. A friend who his an ENT doc explained that they are almost like a toilet, accumulating all the shit that enters the body through the mouth. So evolutionarily they aren't well thought out, but there they are. So that argument doesn't fly. There might be others, but that's not it.

Altoids or other mints would probably do a good job in covering up the taste if girls don't like it. And girls have their own scent and taste down there, so do most girls never get oral sex? I think a big part of sex would be the smells and taste of your partner.

Uncircumsized penises are absolutely disgusting. There's no way you could get it totally clean. Your penis looks like a slug coming out of its shell with the skin flaps still on there. If I have a boy I'm making 100% sure he's circumsized simply because I don't want him going through life with something that repulsive. PS: no harm meant to anyone who is uncircumsized. It's not like you had a choice. :)

No arguement there.

God only knows, I love giving a woman oral - with one catch - Good Hygene. That's not to say no smell, just needs to be clean.

Altoids?

That might burn!

Q: Why do women prefer circumcized men?

A: They can't resist anything that's 10% off. :D

Seriously, where are all the women to weigh in on this? I know they don't have a wang, but they do have, er, hands on experience.

I am not really interested in hearing more blather about style. If your dick smells, you need to learn how to wash it. If a girl wont suck your dick, you need a better fishing line. My dick doesn't smell and I've never had a problem with a girl refusing to take it. Really, the superficial arguments against foreskin only strengthen the idea that such decisions should be made later in life, not when the child has no basis of opinion.

You don't get your baby a nose job, lipo, or breast implants; why a circumcision?

Any parent worrying about their child fitting in based on the look of their PENIS needs to check their parent license at the door. If you can't prepare your child to be strong in life and would rather just chop a piece of him off so you don't have to, you're disgusting.

Medically, once again, in the video you have citations from two medical studies saying two different things. You have medical professionals saying two different things. Call it a fuckin draw.

If all things were equal, wouldn't the pain that it inflicts on your baby be enough to prevent you from having your child cut?

Men who are circumcised or uncircumcised as a child or adult protest under an old psychosis that goes along the lines of:

I made a choice (or i had it made for me).
It is shown that I could have made a better choice.
I am given the choice again; I make same choice again because I don't like to be wrong.

e.g.

I buy a Volvo.
A friend in the trade shows me, for the reasons I need a car I should have bought something else. For financial and practical logic, I made the wrong choice.
I'm asked if I'm happy with my purchase.
I say yes.

It's not about better or worse. It's about wrong or right. Black or white. This is a Zero Grey Area.

End of story.

Anyone who watches that video and sees the agony that child is forced to undergo, sees the suffering and hears the screams. Sees the shock and trauma and STILL thinks it's a good idea to go slicing off a perfectly good part of a baby... Needs urgent assistance in humanity.

Anyone in need of an argument over HIV transmission and std's, etc. need look no further than Western Europe. Our rates of infection, US rates of infection; Which are higher? Do we routinely slice up baby penis?

HIV? BS argument. (21k people infected in the UK total - pop. ~65 million. 315 new heterosexual cases, YES JUST 315, through heterosexual sex in 2003. Whole other story. BBC)
Urinary tract infections... yeah right. I'm always coming down with them. never out of the clinic... *rolls eye*

blah blah blah.

As for the argument of aesthetics (sight or smell) and fitting in, well... Maybe docs should be going in and slicing off/cutting out the traces of inner labia and those structures which give rise to them in later life... seeing as it's all the rage these days.

Anyone in favour of cutting up a baby's pussy for aesthetic reasons? Taking a scalpel to nascent genitalia and tearing out that which is deemed less than pleasing to the eye? Hey! It'll save her having to do it when she's older.

They could even implant some slow release, dehumanising perfume of the parents' choosing at the same time!

WIN WIN WIN!

It is extremely painful. It is unnecessary. The baby cannot choose.

Adults choosing for their infants and children to unnecessarily undergo extreme pain is generally referred to as child abuse.

Slap yourself. And again.

Get it now? Good.

babies are altered for aesthetic reasons fairly often, if my understanding is correct from friends who work in delivery rooms. i can understand the genital mutilation argument on this issue, but its nothing to get all high and mighty about. removal of the foreskin doesn't change your dick that much; to compare it the genital removal rituals performed in africa or the like where they cut out the entire fucking clitoris or more is just asinine. as for the baby; have y'all ever been around babies? the ones i've been around have been fucking crying factories. my opinion that the circumcision / non-circumcision decision isn't the most paramount issue our children face isn't going to be swayed by a video of a baby crying; purely emotional play there.

this whole heated argument thing seems rather ridiculous to me; who gives a shit if your johnson is cut or not? let's see...we've got the uncut guys detailing how its a satanic barbaric ritual which clearly alters the course the child's fragile psyche will take thoughout life (he could have been the goddamn president!) and the cut guys saying it either does matter, or in some cases its apparently fucking disgusting. gee...so we're reinforcing our own self-images. whoop de do. and in the process making a lot of, in my opinion, fairly hyperbolic dumbass comments about each other.

how do y'all feel if a parent elects to have something like a hairlip or birthmark removed when an infant is young? i was going to say cleft pallette work, but i think the old cleft pallette is a little more serious than the scope of dick surgery we're talking about. still, i don't know. i had a friends who left ear never fully unfolded when he was an infant, and his parents arranged to have it juked around with using a scapel and such to unfold it...for purely ascethic reasons. the guy was never upset at his parents for altering his natural appearance. i mean, maybe we're all sociologically brainwashed, but the fact that a bunch of guys who are cut...replying in this thread saying that we don't feel mentally and emotionally scarred...should be a reasonable indication that its not the heinous procedure that the uncut chaps are making it out to be.

i've written too much about this and now need more coffee.

Right on pigglet! :D
When you have a baby boy....make your choice. I choose cut, I like his father's circumcised look and feel very much. And yes....babies are crying factories :lol: boys, girls, cut, uncut. :hearts:

I am astounded at the emotion this seems to evoke.

I am also astounded at the casual attitude some appear to have with regards to cutting their kids.

That's kinda gross.

"It's my baby and I can do what I want with it."

You try any other needless cosmetic surgery and you'll not only get declined, you'll have CPS on your ass if you do it yourself.

Now, I'm not trying to dictate what you can do with YOUR life, however greenlighting a surgery that is purely cosmetic is only furthering this vain culture.

I'm married, so I'm not selecting partners anymore...but if I were, having an uncircumsized penis wouldn't matter one iota to me. Any woman who wouldn't give a guy a blowjob because of his "natural scent" due to having a foreskin is a fucking hypocrite if she has ever received oral sex.

yeah, hal, within certain limits that exactly how it works, until the child is old enough to make decisions for itself. the question is where that line is drawn; i think you're drastically mischaracterizing parents who have their children circumsized. seriously; what's the big deal with this type of infant cosmetic surgery compared to the other types that are routinely performed? the scope in terms of how often its performed? the fact that its socially well known and accepted? i just don't get the level of indignation over it.

Let's just start with the fact that it is cosmetic surgery and go from there.

It's vain, needless, and very much a social decision. Just because something is commonplace doesn't make it a-ok. Giving into a trend is nothing to be proud of. People do a lot of socially acceptable things that are just plain bad ideas regardless. And make no mistake, this is a trend.

whether or not it's a purely cosmetic surgery seems to be debatable, from a medical and hygienic standpoint. however, instead of just the wiki articles and whatnot, i'm going to ask my friend's wife who is in residency to be a ob/gyn/baby-yanker-outer what the deal is. they just had a baby boy about a month ago, and i'd like to know what they did. neither are remotely jewish, so religion i don't think will be an issue. the rest of your post is necessarily contingent on the purely cosmetic angle; but i also would posit that this very much seems to me to be a six in one / half dozen in the other issue. i've never actually thought much about it before, and i can't really find myself compelled to vigorously get upset over it in particular. i do think your demonization of parents who have their kids circumsized is a bit over the top. i'd get much more upset over the fucked up mental and psychological images and values we pass on as a society as compared to the great circumcision debate.

We decided to look carefully at this proceedure when Sagan was born, and I personally found the Mayo Clinic information the least Biased after asking my doctor, and looking atfar too many websites.

Sagan still has his whole enchilada....and someday I think he will be glad.

"The benefits

Circumcision may have health benefits, including:

* Easier hygiene. Circumcision makes it easy to wash the penis — although it's simple to clean an uncircumcised penis, too.
* Decreased risk of urinary tract infections. The risk of urinary tract infections in the first year is low, but these infections may be up to 10 times as common in uncircumcised baby boys. Severe infections early in life can lead to kidney problems later on.
* Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis may narrow so much that it's difficult or impossible to retract. This can also lead to inflammation of the head of the penis.
* Decreased risk of penile cancer. Although cancer of the penis is very rare, it's less common in circumcised men.
* Decreased risk of sexually transmitted diseases. Safe sexual practices remain essential, but circumcised men may have a slightly lower risk of certain sexually transmitted diseases — including HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, and human papillomavirus (HPV), which causes genital warts. Some strains of HPV also cause cervical cancer.

The drawbacks

Circumcision also has drawbacks, including:

* Surgical risks. Excessive bleeding and infection are uncommon, but possible. The foreskin may be cut too short or too long or fail to heal properly. If the remaining foreskin reattaches to the end of the penis, minor surgery may be needed to correct it.
* Pain. Circumcision hurts. Local anesthesia can block nerve sensations during the procedure.
* Permanence. After the procedure, it may be impossible to re-create the appearance of an uncircumcised penis.
* Expense. Some insurance companies don't cover the cost of circumcision."

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/circumcision/PR00040


I honestly just didn't want to take anything away from my son, if I could avoid it.

I AM circumcised. I don't feel upset about it or scarred or anything. I do sometimes wonder how much sensation I am missing out on. I wonder if you do the foreskin restoration stuff they talked about in the video if it restores a lot of the feeling that is lost.

I don't intend on circumcising any sons I may have in the future. Just seems like an unnecessary surgical procedure, that seems to have dubious health benefits.

"babies are altered for aesthetic reasons fairly often, if my understanding is correct from friends who work in delivery rooms. i can understand the genital mutilation argument on this issue, but its nothing to get all high and mighty about. removal of the foreskin doesn't change your dick that much; to compare it the genital removal rituals performed in africa or the like where they cut out the entire fucking clitoris or more is just asinine. as for the baby; have y'all ever been around babies? the ones i've been around have been fucking crying factories. my opinion that the circumcision / non-circumcision decision isn't the most paramount issue our children face isn't going to be swayed by a video of a baby crying; purely emotional play there."

For a definition of asinine, re-read your own text.

"removal of the foreskin doesn't change your dick that much" - ??? Insane. IF it doesn't change it that much, then why have your child put through agony to do it at all?

"to compare it the genital removal rituals performed in africa or the like where they cut out the entire fucking clitoris or more is just asinine." - where did i do that? I made a clear point comparing one aesthetic choice for skin removal to another, not clitoral removal. You upped the ante to try and ridicule the point. deliberate misdirection combined with an attack on me personally. well done. here's an ad hominem argument for you...

If you're in favour of child abuse, or even not against it, you're a child abuser.

If a procedure is performed on a child, a procedure which causes intense pain and permanent damage, for no sound medical reason then IT IS CHILD ABUSE.

"how do y'all feel if a parent elects to have something like a hairlip or birthmark removed when an infant is young? i was going to say cleft pallette work, but i think the old cleft pallette is a little more serious than the scope of dick surgery we're talking about. still, i don't know. i had a friends who left ear never fully unfolded when he was an infant, and his parents arranged to have it juked around with using a scapel and such to unfold it...for purely ascethic reasons. the guy was never upset at his parents for altering his natural appearance. i mean, maybe we're all sociologically brainwashed, but the fact that a bunch of guys who are cut...replying in this thread saying that we don't feel mentally and emotionally scarred...should be a reasonable indication that its not the heinous procedure that the uncut chaps are making it out to be."

cleft palette. hairline lip. disfigurements in general. serious deviations from 'the norm' which will radically affect the child's opportunities in later life.

Foreskin? How is that going to affect a person in their job interviews exactly?

"the... decision isn't the most paramount issue our children face and isn't going to be swayed by a video of a baby crying; purely emotional play there". I'm stunned. Human beings shouldn't let emotion come into our decisions as to whether babies should be mutilated or not. *shakes head*

Paramount concern? I'm sure the baby might not be worried about it's college fund at the time the clamp is attached...

Perhaps if you could translate the impulses overwhelming the newborn's nervous system into something in black and white, maybe then it'd be more cogent.

A baby is not a thing, not a lifestyle accessory to sculpt into whatever image you choose. It is a person. A defenceless person. A person who needs someone to protect it from harm. A person to love it.

Are you really looking after your baby if you're taking a knife to it for no good reason?

Seriously.

YOU ARE AMPUTATING A PERFECTLY GOOD PART OF A NEWBORN BABY'S ANATOMY FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Doesn't that make you think... err... maybe this isn't something i should do?

Really, if you don't see this as clear cut (pardon the pun) against, open and snip, err i mean shut, then you're deranged.

Jesus it has nothing to do with cosmetics. They cut the skin off because it's fucking gross and disgusting. The first time I saw an uncircumsized penis I almost threw up, not kidding. I thank my parents on the inside everytime I think about what my penis could have ended up like.

If there are parents out there that get it cut for dumb shit religious reasons, that's a different story, but I think it's just fucking gross and unsanitary so my son will be having it done. It has nothing to do with what it looks like. It's the fact that it's SKIN FLAPS that can get disgusting crap stuck in them that makes me so pro for it. How in the world can anyone seriously think that it's unfair to get the skin cut off. Your parents are doing you a favor if you ask me. I get to go through life without having a slug penis that smells and is disgusting. Cut. Dispose. Win!

Oh I get it. All those countries in Europe that have higher rates of sexual activity, lower rates of infection and women with hot accents are WAY behind the US because they don't routinely remove the foreskin.

And seriously, to almost throw up at the sight of a natural penis... that's YOUR problem, nobody else's.

Halx, he was kidding about the throwing up thing.


And I have to agree. I think the science behind the whole thing is a waste. If I had a choice later in life to get mine cut or not I would have gone with cut. Cause like I said before... I'm not a fan of turtle necks.

ok, i did. ooooh burn...oh wait...was there a point to that insult? hmmm....

because it changes it a little. in ways that might make it easier to clean and apparently may make it less receptive to certain stds, etc.

newflash! i wasn't responding to you specifically, but to the thread and the general commentary. seriously, calm down.

1. you're assuming certain facts in this statement you can not back up. namely that there is no sound medical/hygienic reason, and that it causes "damage" is a choice of semantics that belies your bias, and
2.because we typically cover it with clothing then it deserves special treatment? i thought this was about the underlying physical and psychological damage to the child? i hate to say it, but an uncircumsized penis could be a drawback sexually; but frankly i'd rather think that a chick would be ok with whichever type of penis the guy had if she was into him. is it child abuse when a doc sticks a thermometer up a baby's ass for a while, holding him/her still so it won't squirm? how about shots for vacinations that many people don't believe are necessary? i'm just saying its not as clear fucking cut as you want to make it out to be, and for christ's sake stop getting so fucking up in arms about it. i'm not trying to "attack" you; specifically or in general. i'm simply stating that reasonable people can have reasonably differing opinions on this. for fuck's sake.

yes, you nailed the point of my statement. absolutely. skewered it. i don't know why i'm going through this paragraph by paragraph, but shit. seriously.

well, that's not the first time i've been called deranged; welcome to the club. but that's what i'm saying. listen, i'm sure it hurts to have your dick cut. i've done it when trying to trim pubic hair with a pair of fucking scissors (bad idea, by the way). it hurts. circumcision is obviously not strictly necessary; i know some great guys with presumably great peni, healthy and friendly and intelligent, all with uncut peni. but i think that some people who know a shit more than i do would say it may have some health affects, and i don't think it seriously hurts the young man-child. i respect people who choose not to do so, i respect people who haven't had it done.

oh, and hal: i hate to do this, but i want it to be clear that i don't share lasereth's point of view on the disgusting nature of the uncircumsized peni. i like my little cut buddy, but i have nothing against the uncut ones. we all have what we have, we do what we do; shit, diversity is a pretty great thing. i don't particularly care about, and in fact i can understand your position in this "debate;" i just don't think that making out people who have their sons circumsized to be evil is particularly accurate or conducive.

I wonder if you've heard of soap and water. Keeping the foreskin clean is about as difficult as not forgetting your keys when you leave the house.

i have two boys - neither are circumcised and it really wasn't a hard decision, becuase there is no reason to do it. Also, I'm pretty sure we had a discussion about this about a year ago...

...It doesn't do anything.

Anyway, as is my motto, less is more. I'm circumcised and if I have a son he's getting circumcised as well.

"...It doesn't do anything."

Neither do your little fingers, shall we cut those off too?

Look, let's put this into a global perspective.

Slicing up female genitals is wrong and gross and evil. We can agree on this from both sides of the pond because we don't do it.

It may interest you to know that many/most of those who undergo this sadism do so willingly. Happily in fact, because they are sold tales of... aesthetics and social acceptance "You won't get married". That to have those pieces of tissue makes you "unclean" and also, "ungodly"!

Who are the ringleaders of this myth perpetuation down the generations? THE EVIL MEN? unfortunately not. It's those who underwent this abomination themselves. Those who recoil at the thought and sight of an unmutilated set of female genitalia. Those who think it disgusting, unclean, etc, etc...

Your culture ritually and systematically mutilates it's baby boys. Mine does not. You defend this mutilation, I see it for what it is.

Look at your cock. Look at the scars. Imagine those had been inflicted at a time when your memory was switched on. Imagine the searing agony of skin being detached from skin.

Think of yourself as a caring parent.

What would you do?

Your exapmples are all considered "defects" that require medical attention to correct. There is nothing defective about an uncut penis.

Lasereth: Get over yourself.

James t kirk: I call bullshit on the girl who say all uncut dicks smell. She has a mental predisposition like Lasereth, and is using smell as a scapegoat. I'm uncut, and on a typical afternoon, my balls smell worse then my dick.

You serious...? It's kinda' hard to play most instruments (Among other things) without the use of your little finger :thumbsup:

I do hope you understand the physiological ramifications of female genitalia cutting and how it vastly differs from male circumcision.

So cutting off an otherwise useless portion of skin is mutilation? Mmmkay... I'm circumcised and I have to say that I'm pretty happy being that way. As far as I can tell, I haven't suffered any negative consequences because of it.

I'd still have him circumcised. Simply because it might hurt is no reason to not have it done. When I was younger I happened to watch my sister get her ears pierced. From what I could tell, it hurt like hell as she cried and cried and cried. I imagine she cried about as much as I did when I was circumcised. Aside from the 'fact that it hurts' (Which really is irrelevant since circumcision is done at a very young age), I haven't seen any argument as to why you wouldn't have yourself (Or your son) circumcised.

what the fuck il? this makes two times within a fortnight or so that i find myself agreeing with you. this is simply preposterous.

I guess there's just this big disconnect with the parenting issue. Some believe that children should grow up before making any cosmetic change decisions. Others believe they can have it done for them, without their choice before they're old enough to "remember" it.

And to compare the pain with that of an ear piercing seems laughable.

As said earlier, circumcision is not correction of a deformity like a clef pallet. It is cutting a perfectly functional part of your baby's anatomy. It is extremely painful and just plain mean. Don't forget that it's an extra profit center for the hospital industry that already rapes and pillages us at every possible step.

I'm cut, and although I'm fine with that, I would be fine now being uncut.

Like I said, I don't remember being circumcised (Since I would have been only a few hours old), but I do remember the apparent pain my sister went through when she had her ears pierced (I remember my mom had to hold her down to the chair). The point I was (Trying) to make was that amount of pain involved in an action is purely subjective; It depends entirely on the person. I'd like to point out to you that, indeed, some babies don't cry at all while being circumcised.

Anyway, the only real argument against circumcision is that it can be traumatizing. Ehhh... 22 years later and I think I'm doing all right. In fact, I've absolutely NO memory of being circumcised. Funny, isn't it?

No, that is not the argument. The argument is that the child has a part of his body altered - cut OFF - without having a say in it.

The only real argument against circumcision is that it is unnecessary.

There is no convincing reason to do it.

Every example given here as been either cosmetic or cultural assimilation. All of the medical ones seem weak at best as they have solid counter positions.

It just doesn't make any sense that someone would perform an unnecessary procedure to their child just so they can look like they do or so they will "fit it".

It makes no sense at all.

tsionlyi, I think you're being entirely overdramatic. I've seen babies cry themselves into a state of near shock because their bottle was taken away.

I have been cut, my penis works FINE. I can beat off in about 30 seconds if I'm excited.

I would probably opt not to have my sons get cut, but if the (future)wife wants it, then she can pay to have it done.

I think that either way, the boy's going to do just fine in life, so at worst, its an unnecessary surgery that wastes $400....it probably wont matter much to the boy either way....trust me, somehow I know that I am not bothered by the fact that I was circumcised.

Here are some things that DID bother me from my childhood:

having my right thumb nearly cut off by a closing door.

having that same thumb (with no thumbnail after the surgery to re-attatch the tip of my thumb) being stepped on by my 300lb step-father.

and once, I nailed my face on the concrete.

while riding my bicycle barefoot, I wiped out pretty hard and got some good road rash.

trying to do a backflip into a pool and scraping my back along the pool edge.

My list of childhood suffering goes on....and I can say...without question that the one that bothers me the least is that I was circumcised.

Do you remember the thread where the OP said that having a child was rude as you couldn't ask the child if (s)he would like to be born before giving birth to him/her? Your argument doesn't make much more sense than that one.

Ask a newborn baby if he would like to be circumcised. Tell me the answer you get. The fact is that you won't get an answer as newborns are incapable of making rational/conscious decisions concerning their own well-being, therefore his parents do it for him.

You don't like their decision? That's too damn bad. There's nothing wrong with circumcision and every male I know who's been circumcised seems to be functioning normally. In fact, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to your son (Or even yourself) to be circumcised-- Especially if the claims of circumcision protecting against HIV are true.

:rolleyes:

The responses have been at least halfway sane, until that one. I'm done. I've stated my opinion very clearly.

Honestly. I give up.

You're justifying the choice of your parents by ratifying it yourselves.

THERE IS NO REASON TO DO THIS. `****NONE****

Medical. BS.
Aesthetic. Abhorrent.

You are not normal if you have a circumcision. You're a freak. You're a person who has been mutilated by their parents.

Have a nice day.

tisonly, if i was the post-reporting type of person, that post might be the type of post i'd report. what the fuck? (now i'm specifically replying to you, by the way). the medical and hygienic concerns can't rationally be dismissed as "b.s." you might think they are insignificant compared to the irreparable damage done to the child, but that's a different perspective.

aside from the emotional ranting, everything that needs to be said about this has probably been said.

so i'll ditto hal's post above yours.

ooooooooookaayyyyy

Well, I wasn't circumsized. I grew up pretty normally. I've had a few tract infections before, but they weren't so bad (just made my piss smell like pizza [???]). As for girls caring about it, none of them did. Not even the hardcore Jewish twins. Although, when I'm hard my skin rolls back naturally so it doesn't really look like I'm not cut. Even when I'm soft the skin only covers a part of my head. Smell? Nahh, my cock doesn't smell, so long as I wash it every day. I'm sure that's true for all guys, though.

In conclusion, I would probably cut my son, but only with the use of some heavy-duty anasthesia. He can grow it back if he wants to.

I'm circumcised and my cock smells great.


QED motherfuckers, QED.

last time I checked, there are MANY people who do much worse things to themselves. tatoos, piercings, etc. are fairly common.

and a couple of posts above me, I see an uncut guy who's had a urinary tract infection. that intrigues me, since I've never known another male to have gotten a urinary infection. I suppose there might be some merit to the circumcision for cleanliness after all (though I do understand that this does not signify a general trend, and could be a random occurence)

Shut up?
 

Every single one of you who's been giving reasons for it to be cut or not to be cut just need to shut up. If you REALLY want to find reasons to cut or not cut your son or sons go out and ask at least 10 different women (from different groups, not all 10 hanging out together) if they mind uncut men. If 50% say they prefer cut men to uncut then you're screwed enjoy :P. If more then 50% say they prefer cut men to uncut because it's *insert one of the many reasons people say uncut is bad here* then there's your answer. I say there's your answer because unless you're planning on having a gay son (being gay isn't bad but most guys aren't so chances are yours won't be) then you might want to get him cut so that he can have a better chance to get ass.

Don't you think it'd scar your child more if he had a girl look at his uncut penis in disgust then to be cut when they're so young they will have no memory what so ever of it even happening? Yes, lots of women (never met one) are fine with uncut penises, but don't you think just having that one woman look at you in disgust because you're uncut would be bad enough? I know from experience (talking to girls :-O) that a lot of girls have never even seen an uncut penis, and when I showed them one (not mine, picture online) they thought it looked either A: Hilarious B: Nasty or C: Like a turtle poking his head out of his shell. I will have my son or sons be cut that way they will never have to experience the pain of having a girl laugh at them, OH WAIT! they probably will, so I guess I'm doing it to (if one never laughed at you hooray for you) the option of being laughed and or denied by a girl for being uncut.

I have a cut penis and seriously, to me I think it'd be annoying to have one that is uncut, I don't want to have to actually pay attention when I clean down there to make sure I get between my "magical helmet" around my penis. The mere fact you all are bantering back and forth about "uncut is betta!" "no! cut is betta!" is retarded, IT'S YOUR OPINION, stop trying to change others opinions because for some reason you feel the need to express how proud you are of your uncut and or cut cock. (that last part goes out mainly to the people talking about their uncut penis and how they're so proud of it, seeing as most the guys posting who are cut give THEIR reason for liking it, and not reasons for cutting your kid or not cutting your kid) I just realized this so I decided to edit my post, if you need extra help like "bumps" on your cock to bring a woman to orgasm.... pretty sure you're going to need more then "bumps" it's not exactly amazingly hard. No I have never not made a woman cum, in fact the first time I made a girl cum (no experience what so ever) she was screaming "oh god, oh god" so much I felt like I was in church again. If I can do that on my first try, pretty sure if you guys just got a little more experience you'd be able to as well. Yes, having that be my first sexual experience freaking rocked! Nothing better then making a girl cum 4 times your first try (her dad called a few times so she kept getting up to leave, I said "I'm not done with you" and she happily got back on the bed :-D. Seriously not making this shit up, I hope all guys having their first sexual experience, have one that makes them feel as kick ass as this one made me feel.

Obviously you're one of those people that when they have their mind made up about something will never change it because "I'm right! and they're wrong!". Why not accept that other people have DIFFERENT opinions then you and just say "Alright, well I obviously can't sway you to my side so I'm going to stop trying now, later everyone!" at least that way you won't sound like a total jackass who believes everyone who doesn't agree with him to be idiots.

So...the only real reason to have a circumcision or not is whether chicks dig it? I would hope that any son I may or may not have (actually all sons) is raised to be secure enough in himself that if some woman bases their entire perception of him on the way his penis looks then he is smart enough to send that shallow bitch packing.

Also, it's not really simple at all. The bottom line is that circumcision is unecessary, in the sense that people who are uncircumsized (the way they are born) live long perfectly happy, perfectly normal lives independantly of having their foreskin left intact. Because it is unecessary, if you want to have it done to your son you should have some justification for it. There have been justifications provided, it provides more ease with hygeine to have it removed and there may (I have yet to see any conclusive evidence either way) be some medical benefit. The question is do the benefits merit the procedure?

Wait...it still isn't that simple because a circumcision can be performed at any age. Our future sons may one some input on the matter, after all, it is their penii we're talking about here. Some say as a parent it's their right and the kid doesn't get a say, others say it shouldn't be the parents decision when it's perfectly reasonable and possible to wait and let the kid decide for himself. Also it's much easier to have a circumcision than it is to undo one.

So the question is now pretty complicated. For me? Basically it is unecessary, and the potential benefits don't really amount anything. The decreased risk of HIV is so miniscule compared to things like safe sex practices. If you don't know if the girl has HIV, and you just have to have sex with her, wrap it up. There is no excuse not to. I'm willing to bet good money that whether or not you were circumsized is going to be the sole determining factor for whether or not you get HIV about 0% of the time. Also, the hygeine thing just lets you be lazy, if you can't handle cleaning up your toys everyday, maybe you shouldn' t have them :devious:. Also, if the kid wants to have it done, then they can, I see no reason not to let them make up their own mind. So unless the future wife has a serious opinion that swings other way no slicing up any of my sons.

Nip Tuck
 

Now I do hate this show, but one episode was about the main characters son and how he felt like shit because a girl thought his uncut penis was weird. In the show he gets really pissed at his parents because they didn't cut him etc. and eventually tries to do it himself. What I know to be true about teenagers is
1: Teenagers no matter how they are raised are almost always going to be self conscious about themselves.
2: Teenagers like to fit in because most can't handle being an "outcast".
3: Most do not deal well with being laughed at, and or teased about something they're already self conscious about.

It's hard enough being a teenager, I really think that if your kid was to get turned down and have a girl look at his penis in disgust because he wasn't cut, that when you asked him a week later if he would've preferred to be cut he'd most likely reply "yes, it would have saved me the humiliation of having a girl that I really like looking at my penis like it disgusts her". Yes given that your kids should not give a shit what people that would actually get hung up about that kind of thing if they really liked your son, but the majority of teenagers do care what other people think.

So like most things concerning your child, it's a matter of opinion. The thing I find interesting is lot's of people are saying "it's unnecessary" so they aren't going to do it to your son. Using meds to make your kid feel better while they're sick etc. is unnecessary also but you do it why? Because you want your kid to feel better. Many things are unnecessary, it's not really a matter of being necessary or not, it's a matter of keeping your girl or boy from having to go through unnecessary painful moments. Yeah it goes both ways seeing as the procedure hurts, but seeing as you can't remember pain or remember being that young, pretty sure it doesn't count.

By this rationale, shouldn't we administer liposuction or stomach stapling to an overweight child? You'd think girls would sooner go out with an uncut kid than a fat kid....

What say you?

Besides...why does "not being able to remember the pain" of an infant circumcision make it justifiable to make an infant go through it?

Uncircumcised infants are at a slightly higher risk for urinary tract infections due to urine trapped under the foreskin. Phimosis, penile cancer, etc. are also strikes against foreskins. Circumcision, being a medical procedure, has a risk of complications and infection. When balanced against the other, circumcision comes out a fraction of a percent ahead.

STD infection rates are irrelevant to a discussion of infant circumcision. Furthermore, if I ever heard anyone say "I don't need a condom, I'm circumcised." I would smack them.

Even if it were a completely painless (they have improved local anesthetics coming into use) procedure, there is no particularly good reason to remove a functioning piece of a kids genitals. None.

Do learn about the proper care of a normal infant penis, though, if you choose to leave your kids intact.

Circumcision's not cosmetic.

It's a perversion.

If I waited til my cat had to have an operation to get the microchipping done cos it might hurt, I cant in all honesty EVER contemplate putting MY flesh and blood thru THAT! I am circumcised but it doesnt mean its right!

I am cut, wish I was not, my two sons are not.
Break the cycle.

:thumbsup:

I am uncircumcised and I did once get a urinary tract infection. Granted I was in hospital and had a catheter in at the time, but I'm sure my foreskin was a major contributing factor there.

Or it could've just happened because someone jammed a fucking tube up my fucking dick.

Now that that's out of my system...

Seriously, I have never had any problems with my foreskin. And personally, I like my foreskin. Granted I've never had sex without it, but I do know that it's fairly sensitive and thus it would stand to reason that it adds sensitivity. Also, I have never had a girl refuse to sleep with me (or do anything else, for that matter) based solely on the grounds that I'm intact. Indeed, one ex of mine was rather fond of playing peek-a-boo with it.

I can't imagine I'll contribute too much to this particular discussion, for the simple fact that when emotions rise, rationality falls and emotions are flying high here. I will say that it seems unnecessary and a bit uncouth to say the least to lop off a bit of an infants cock, whether that particular bit is necessary or not. The worst you can really say about a man's foreskin is that it really doesn't do any good - I'm damn sure it's never done me any harm. And to do it for aesthetic reasons... hell, I wouldn't even consider altering my cat for purely aesthetic reasons. Future son of mine? Hell no.

Uncut here.
To people who say things like "it's fucking gross and disgusting. The first time I saw an uncircumsized penis I almost threw up, not kidding," I say that their reaction is caused by having grown up and seen mostly cut ones.

The thread "flaps" discusses the appearance of protruding vaginal lips. In general, men aren't as sensitive as women on the look of their genitalia, but some uncut guys still might feel offended by your post. Me? I don't care. My wife had never seen an uncut penis before, and it took her some getting used to, but she didn't run away screaming, or treat me any different than a cut guy.

For those who use the "teenagers will be emotionally hurt" argument: teens will always have insecurities. Whether they have acne, braces, or a penis that's different from other people's.
As for the smell issue, my answer is the same as other people on my side of the fence: soap and water. If it's fresh and clean, your penis will smell like you(if you're also fresh and clean).
HIV: Use a condom, you should whether you're cut or not(unless you know for sure, with tests, that your partner is disease-free).

I don't see the need for circumcision.

Wow, I didn't know this issue got people so emotional. I'm a female, so I suppose I have shouldn't be replying at all. I really don't care either way, for who I'm sleeping with, as long as we're attracted to each other and clean. From an aesthetic view while watching a porn, I do prefer the look of a cut penis, but that is just one of those personal turn ons. I do believe it should be left up to the family whether or not to cirumsize a child and I do not believe it to be a life altering/traumatizing event. There seems to be pros and cons on both sides of the issue, as there are with everything. I don't think one should be viewed as better than the other, it's a personal decision that family makes. I don't really want to say much more due to the intensity of the thread, but I did want to add my two cents. Either way, who cares?

well my two cents....
I am cut (my parents were not evil, it was jes what was done at the time).
I will admit a facination w/ the uncut penis, tho..;)

Haye toyed with perhaps non-surgical restoration....

The thought that people
are still willing to do this
highly upsets me.


Half of the pleasure
or less is less than we need
to have peaceful boys.

awesome ocm?
i disagree with you...duh
but i like your style

The standard commentary when you can't find an argument against mine. Make it personal! That'll get'em!

Standard bathing and hygiene rules prove that by the end of the day, a flappy penis is gonna be dirtier than an unflappy penis. There's no arguing it. A place to get stuff stuck in is gonna get dirtier than a penis that doesn't have a place to get stuff stuck in. Yes, you can keep from getting infections and keep it looking decent and sanitary, but when you haven't had a shower in 12 hours and you're about to score, there's no denying that an unflappy is gonna be less dirty.

Mental predisposition? I grew up in a republican I-Hate-Niggers-And-Queers town and turned out to be one of the most open minded people I know that is willing to see things from every point of view. Fact: can uncut penises have a smell that is attributed to the existance of the flap: yes. Does it happen to everyone all of the time? No. But it does happen, and gross smells are disgusting, and some women don't like it. Why would you say your parents are mistreating you for eliminating that possibility?

The viewpoint of circumcision being PURELY asthetical is pretty offkey as well. Can the flap cause smells in some guys. Yes. Do some girls not like the skin flap. Yes. Do some girls refuse to have sex with guys that have the flap. Yes. Do some guys wish they had theirs for extra sexual pleasure? Yes. It's a weight versus weight on each side and for me the advantages heavily outweigh the disadvantages.

I'd also like to add that the mental and physical anguish caused by the actual procedure is horseshit. It's nearly safe to say that it doesn't exist, because the fact that you're not in a warm, dark uterus is pissing you off more than you getting cut at that point. Everything in the world is your enemy when you're born. The air, the doctor, the water, the clothes, life itself is your nightmare when you're a newborn. Adding another quick snippet of pain to your otherwise hatred of being out of the womb isn't gonna fuck anyone up for life as many people are insinuating.

I don't know, Lasereth, I mean, the way you speak about uncircumcised penises in your previous comments makes it seem like your circumcision might've left feelings of hatred and disgust towards your "flap". Maybe the experience of removing it made you hate foreskins?
:)

I haven't a flap kind sir and would be the guy that tries to remove it himself if I had one. I simply think they're not asthetically pleasing to the eye. I am extremely, <I>extremely</I> picky about the cleanliness of my body so maybe that's why I have a qualmz with them.

I would rather have my body work to standard specifications, and I should have that choice to change that when I am old enough to make that decision.

If all you have ever known or seen is your uncircumcised penis, I doubt you would find it gross. It would be normal. Well that is if you live in one of the many other countries that don't normally perform this procedure.

It is much more comfortable having a foreskin cover the glans all day. When you walk down the street, go for a run, ride a bike, sit at a desk, or do whatever, keeping the glans an internal organ where it belongs is better.

Why is it that the non-circumsized guys are all anti-circumcision and the one's that are cirucumsized are more apt to say an uncut penis is gross? Why does anyone care what your neighbors penis looks like? I mean, maybe I don't understand because I'm female, but I have never considered this a hot topic and am shocked at the intensity this subject brings. I have big boobs, but I'm not like, ooooh girls with small boobs suck, big boobs are WAY better or something like that. Makes no sense to me. I have a preference and that is cut. But to me that is just one of those attraction things like big hips/small hips, blonde hair/red hair etc. I dunno...

What happens if small breasts were deemed 'popular' by society & religion in certain countries and your parents decided to remove the breast tissue when you were a baby. Why would you want big boobs? They get in the way, they are harder to clean, they can get cancer...

(Assume for a second that they didn't produce milk for a baby and were not necessary for anything. And a lot of guys only liked smll chested women or so they say.)

I don't think that would be physically possible as you do not develop breast tissue until you go through puberty. If that's what my parents chose to do, then I'd live with it, just like I've lived with the rest of the decisions they've made for me when I wasn't able to make my own decisions (which wasn't long btw, I took over at a very young age haha).

I think you're missing my point. My point was, who gives a fuck? So your penis isn't cut, why rant and rave about some guy whose dick is cut? I just don't get it. I don't know if it's some built in defense mechanism or what, it just seems odd to me. I think I will stop talking about it, because talking about it more gives the impression that I care either way. I have my preference for sure, but I wouldn't waste my time talking down either side. I would however waste my time asking people why they'd waste their time doing such a think hehe...

tenniels, the point of *my* argument.. I don't know about anyone else... is that circumcision is abusive. It's cosmetic surgery done to someone who has no say in the matter. We think chinese foot binding is inhumane, why not circumcision?

It's also a sad cultural thing. If you have a cut penis and you're happy with it, great. That doesn't excuse the cultural propaganda that makes some uneducated people think it's gross to be uncut. Now people ACTUALLY think about their son fitting in when they are seen naked in the locker room a good 15 years before they have to.

Let's not forget that circumcision is a religious thing. It was intended to steer young boys away from sexual pleasure.

So when you ask why I care if someone ELSE is circumcised, I respond that it affects culture to be so mislead about it. And culture affects me.

It seems i'm jumping in rather late but here's my 2 cents.

HIV risk: if you're having lots of unprotected sex with multiple partners, then by all means get yourself cut. The higher levels of white blood cells in the foreskin is actually a good thing for protecting you from everything outside of HIV. Added HIV protection shouldn't even be a factor in the circumcision debate, as everyone should be taking precautions against HIV and other STI's, cut or uncut, already.

The biggest problem with circumcision is that its an unnecessary operation that is done on young boys without their permission or consent. Note that this is different from necessary operations that are life saving. It's largely aesthetic in nature, much like breast augmentation. If you're old enough and decide that circumcision is for you, then go for it. At that point it's your decision to do what you want with your own body. It's not a choice that someone else will be making for you.

The USA is the only country in the world where this is even a debate. Elsewhere (outside of Israel), circumcision is only performed on infants when there's a rare medical condition where the foreskin is closed over the urethra.

I'm uncut. I also have a couple Jewish friends that wish they weren't cut for the reason that it wasn't done with their consent.

I wouldn't recommend someone who has unprotected sex with different partners to get cut. I'd tell him to wear a rubber. If he insists on not being protected, I'm sorry, but I'll let natural selection happen. Survival of the least stupid.

Yeah, I didn't mean to give the impression that I don't respect your argument halx, I just don't necessarily see it as abuse myself. I don't understand the foot binding thing, but if that's what they do in their culture, I really don't care tbh. Same with bullfights for example. People say that is abuse, but in the context of Spanish culture, I don't find it abusive. For entertainment outside that culture, yes of course. Anyways, I really don't have anything else to say about the topic because I have my opinion, everyone else has their's. My point was not as much what side I'm on, because I don't care, it's none of my business, but more to why it's being discussed to death. That's the beauty of a forum like this though, different opinions being discussed, and I have a great appreciation for that.

did you read my whole post or just get to that one sentence?

Here's my original post with added bold for the point i was trying to make.

I read your whole post. For some reason, though, I don't understand how both the 1st sentence and the last coexist in the same paragraph. Sorry, I just don't get it.

well guys, i know one thing i'm going to look into: foreskin perforation and transdermal novacaine application.

look, now maybe you think it's a little perverse to cut jr.'s ding dong up when he's a ripe old 2 days old or so. hey, i get it man. i don't think its a huge deal, but maybe you do. hey, i can roll with that; you just love the little guy. want the best for him.

you want him to able to make that choice for himself, and i suppose that's awful good parenting of you. fair enough. now, i'd hate to have to consciously cut up my dick when i was 7 or 12 or 19...i mean, let's face it. i was a bitch about getting shots until i was at least 20 or so...thus, i have to think that if i wanted a circumcision when i was about 16 (and who are we kidding, i would have. my cut penis is so fly people on the street sometimes think they hear theme music coming from my trousers), well, it would have just been plain old scary.

now, if i could wrap some transdermal novacaine gauze around my old glans, put a little foreskin perferator around the little buddy, one twist; nice and perforated...pull off perforator with quick tear...and voila! all nice and circumsized, less than 5 minutes...maybe i could go for that. you never see the little gizmo do its thing, and a few days later lil buddy is ready to rock.

and i'll tell you another thing; the second i see my parents this weekend i'm clubbing them like a drunken eskimo beats a seal when he's got gambling debts. those fuckers! i knew i didn't want to take out the trash when i was in high school, and now i know why. repressed anger and resentment over the emotional scaring they foisted upon me at that tender age. bunch of fucking psychopaths they are.

seriously.

Yes, I like your style.

What concerns me most are the pleasurable sensations that go missing for a man without a foreskin. Secondly, my belief that reproductive equipment probably shouldn't be fucked with, pun intended.

tenniels, for more information and opinions I believe you could find a thread or two where this has been discussed at length.

Regarding circumcision's connection to violence: US & Israel.