Kinkiness on TFP
 

I've been thinking lately that I do not feel comfortable discussing *really* kinky things on TFP... and I'm wondering if it's just me. I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong, but anal sex and polyamory seem to be the kinkiest things that any of us discusses around here.

I am not talking about fantasies... I am talking about what people actually DO when they're having sex. It seems that even in a place like this, some topics are "taboo." Are most of us really that vanilla? Not that it's bad if we are, I just don't believe it's true. I figure that we are a pretty non-normative group overall... so why are many of us so hesitant to talk about things that are on the margins of sexuality?

For ktspktsp and I, a lot of it has to do with the fact that we've met quite a few TFP'ers in person. This makes it a bit too much like real-life for us to feel 100% comfortable discussing our level of kinkiness, other than with a few people via PM's. But I also feel like this place is pretty normative (especially hetero-normative, though lesbians are considered "hot"), when it comes down to it... and somewhat judgmental of things that are TOO off the chart. There are, of course, a few notable exceptions among us... and I really appreciate your contributions and honesty. But I remember how strong the reaction was to the old threads about women using strap-ons with their male partners... the closed-mindedness was kind of disappointing, though I guess it's only normal.

But, I thought I'd put this out there and ask if anyone else felt inhibited about discussing these kinds of things. This is the TFP... we're all supposed to feel free to discuss anything and everything, right? :)

I'm cool discussing whatever so long as it is in good taste (no pedophilia, beast, etc.)

When I want kink, I read Savage Love. TFP seems like more middle of the road than guys that enjoy being cuckolded or ballerinas that can't have anal sex without lots of lube (this week's letters).

I'm just a sexual reactionary anyway and generally not that imaginative in bed. If I want to get "interesting" it usually takes more planning and concentration than I'm usually capable of.

I'm new here, and not uber sexual anyways, but I have no problem discussing the things Will mentioned.

Really?


I always thought this was pretty kinky. At least to me it is. I'm pretty open with stuff around here. I know most people are very aware of my foot fetish. I do love me some cute toes.

Well at least I'm not the only person around here with a foot fetish. Not a major one, but your comment on cute toes sums mine up to...heh

Now that the cat's out of the bag, abaya, who suggested the thumb in the ass first?

:lol: If only it were that tame...

/heads over to Savage Love

i wouldnt date a chick with ugly feet. i hate fat chunky feet...or just ugly 'un-normal' feet..or big feet on a chick...eww.. but thats just me and my foot fetish

as for other stuff, im quite reserved when it comes to disclosing my private sexual life. i like to read all the left of centre stories and bask in the glory that im still in the centre. of course we all have tendancies and fantasies that are unfulfilled, but sometimes its those deep dark dirty things that are best left to yourself.

I don't know of much that's ever come up and been treated as... "taboo".

I've seen threads on tons of very not "normative" stuff.

It's also very odd that you'd point out how "hetero-normative" the board is when you consider how hetero-normative your average population is. You point it out as if to say that because the board is mostly not something, means it's mostly anti something, which I do not at all agree with. There are always going to be people with strong opinions on both sides of any subject; everyone here has an equal voice, and so sometimes the ones you disagree with are going to be as loud as those with which you agree.

That doesn't mean this place is anti-something because we allow everyone to express their opinions. :)

I like how everyone's opinions are accepted here, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I don't think I said it was anti-kink... at least, that was not my intention. I just wonder why there isn't *more* kinky stuff in general, since I do feel that TFP members are *not* a representative sample of the average population in the world. When I first joined, I thought we were all pretty kinky, "evolving" and whatnot. But then again, I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong in that assumption. Maybe that's what this thread is about, to see how normative we really are.

The kissing cousins thing was out there. People talk about analingus, that's out there imho. There was even a scat thread here once upon a time (eww).

Wow, is analingus considered kinky... ?

I'm not sure what kinks are not welcome here, beyond the illegal - but that said in some countries (or states for all I know) fucking your horse is legal. If the impression we get from the movies is true it's prety much REQUIRED in redneck burgs.

Personally, I've never wanted to do anything especially kinky, and I'm too allarmed by pain and illness to want to be beaten or to have someone shit on me - but if you want to be flogged by clowns whilst forced to wash your face in the collected semen of a dozen midgets, then good for you.

Don't forget to post the photos on wayside. :thumbsup:

I love the diversity of opinion i see here, even though "out there" for me is probably "vanilla" for a lot of you.

No, I gotta agree Daniel, the things you seem to consider "out there" seem out there to me, at least the midget semen bathing, I prefer virgins blood for my bathing. But yeah, scat...Will put it best...eww

Thanks for being honest... it's good to know. I'm starting to get the idea, actually, that vanilla is pretty much the norm around here. Which is really okay, since my point with this thread was to get an idea of how kinky the TFP really is... and that doesn't include reading about other people's kink, or just viewing in on Wayside. I mean actually writing about the dirty deeds we all personally do in the darkness of our bedrooms, or wherever it takes place.

Maybe dlishsguy is right. No one really wants to 'fess up to that stuff... but we'll read about other people doing it, and feel better that we're "not that bad." I guess.

Has there ever even been a thread asking what kind of dirty things people do while having sex?

I think the problem is that no one wants to be the first to post and feel awkward if no one else replies positively to that kink. You've taken the first step by calling everyone out. Now, someone, not necessarily you, but someone needs to take that first step and start posting about it. Then I'd be willing to bet this board is a lot kinkier than you're thinking.

I don't think so, Carno... but maybe this is the place to get it started.

For some reason, though, I feel like we won't get many honest answers unless there's some kind of "anonymous" handle that people can use to REALLY talk about what they do.

Maybe that's what I want, because I've seen it in other forums (which were, overall, not as cool as this place). Maybe this place is just too familiar to me, since it's no longer an anonymous internet forum but a place where I have met a lot of members in person and consider them friends IRL.

Sometimes I really crave anonymity and being able to talk about everything dark and dirty. Doesn't anyone else feel that way? :confused:

EDIT: spectre, just saw your post after I posted... and I think you're right. That's exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not brave enough to get it going, but maybe I would be willing to participate.

I am very much the same here as I am irl. I have never been inclined to discuss the details of my sex life with others or to write about it here. Reading some of the tfp posts tells me that I am not quite as vanilla as I thought I was but I do fall on that side of the continuum.

Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait.


I disagree that TFP is vanilla. We just don't have people popping up and talking about their deal. I think, instead of introducing a self-fulfilling prophecy to the board, why not try to cultivate the kink?

Abaya, whats kinky and what do you like? Domination? Asphyxiation? Bondage? Masochism? Income Taxes? Help us out here, I'm sure if you tell us what you're looking for, you'll get a few more people speaking up than just giving it all an obscure label.

For instance, you can say the TFP isn't really into bondage. BUT. I bet you if you do say that, you'll get people speaking up saying that they don't do it currently but they are very interested in getting into it 'cause it's HOT. Then we can get down to basics, with the experienced people telling the hopefuls what they need to know. Voila. Kink.

Huh...Income Taxes...now that you mention it...although its more like, Income Taxxxes...HOT

Yeah, I'm really wondering what is considered kinky now. Snowballing, analingus, bondage, toys (just to name a few topics I saw with one glance) aren't kinky?

I guess if that stuff is vanilla to you, you must be hella fucking out there.

Shit, I am hella fucking out there, entirely by accident to...jeez

Huh. Do you consider blood play and scat vanilla as well?

This is what I am talking about... THANK YOU, Halx. :thumbsup: I knew I could depend on you to support increasing the level of honest kink around here. :D

The problem with me, however, is that I'm too much of a pussy to start anything. As I said before, I crave anonymity. And maybe that's what other people want, too, before they'll start talking about their kinks? Or maybe ktspktsp and I are just "hella fucking out there."

Carno: what kind of bondage?

Hmm...well, I have some toys and I like to...yea, mark me as not comfortable. I can post my photos, but not tell about what goes on after the shoot.

For one, I have some really good friends on here. I think if I was just a name and an avatar and a couple of pictures, I'd be more willing to share.

Plus, JJ is on TFP too. I don't know if I'd want him to go on and on about our sexual escapades. If we did, it would have to be a mutual sharing and posting. However, after past experiences, we like to keep some parts/most parts of our personal lives off the board whenever possible.

I contribute where I'm comfortable, but some things are better left undiscussed. Although, other members are completely confident and willing to share. It's a personal choice.

**Edit/Add**
I often find that when the 'Who's the kinkiest?' type contest comes up people always feel they have to one-up each other. If that is what this is going to turn into then...I love having sex upside-down in the swing we hook up. The DP using a dildo is incredible. I also love having the nipple clamps on, the sensation is insane as the blood rushes to my head.

But no, sometimes people say things that they might not really do to make an impression or not sound 'vanilla'. It's like trying to be at the 'cool' table..er bed. I might verge on vanilla to some people's standards, but I enjoy it and I climax multiple times. If that's happening, it's all good.

This is getting into the realm of technicalities, but I'm pretty sure that bondage, snowballing and analingus are all kinky. You may consider them a routine part of intercourse, but just because you are into that kind of stuff doesn't mean they aren't kinky anymore.

As far as anonymity goes, what's the point of getting into the particulars of your sex sessions? What is the benefit of telling people your "routine"? If you're into the nitty gritty stuff like that, why not just read some erotica?

I agree with pretty much everything you said in your post. But I don't think anyone is suggesting that this turn into an "in-crowd" thing. That's not what TFP is about, is it? I hope not. I just want honest responses (myself included). Let's try it out.

That swing thing sounds awesome. Does anyone else have one of those? We have under-the-bed restraints that I enjoy.

And I echo you on the DP with a dildo thing. Very good stuff, especially in terms of orgasm success for me.

Nipple clamps, I haven't gone there yet. I don't know if I could handle the pain. But they do look sexy.

I didn't specify TFP, just that people in general don't like to be the boring one. For example, if I said I just like it missionary, on the bed, always on the bottom, lights out, and some nipple sucking. But no oral sex, that's gross. I wouldn't feel accepted. Let me state again...I'm not specifying TFP, this is a general thing. People like to exaggerate or make things up to feel they are accepted.

If you are looking for honesty and thought my last post about the swing was...well, that was in jest to make a point. Just like the very vanilla scenario above was made up to prove another point. But I could have just said 'Ooo, you should try it immediately' and you would believe that I was a 'swinging' sex machine. *shrug*

Honesty is hard to get when it comes to money, experience, size, and sex. Everyone wants to look like they have the most or biggest or kinkiest. Just take what others say with a grain of salt. With the amount of porn available I could explain how I had sex on a sinking pirate ship.

it occurs to me that this thread is not "why isn't tfp" kinkier, but rather "why aren't people on tfp talking about their sex lives with more detail?" i think there was a fairly open crowd that passed through, mainly about a year or so ago. the current crowd doesn't seem to go into as much depth about those subject. i would hazard a guess that the members of tfp, if anything, are "kinkier" than the average population of any substantially sized geographic area. i'm not really sure what kinky is, but I'm guessing whatever it is, people on this board are doing it. its just that no one is saying. i'm not sure there's anything that can be done about the lack of sex practice specific posting. people just have to start talking about it.

personally, i'm usually more of a don't kiss and tell type. i suspect many others on the board are similar.

I completely and totally agree. And who decides what is "kinky," anyway? Do we need to decide? Why not just talk about it?

No offense at all... but then why do people really come here (particularly to Sexuality)? What does "evolution of sexuality" mean? The Titty Board? :confused:

No, first of all you don't say things like "Ooo, you should try it immediately." You're also not the one-upman type. So I would have just taken you seriously. I guess I just thought that you were being honest, and that the thread was finally getting somewhere.

Now I'm wondering why I even started this thread. The very thing that brought me to TFP was sexual openness, curiousity, sharing. I just wondered where it had gone, or if it was just me. I still don't know.

You started this thread because you felt that the tfp was lacking something. shesus was just warning about what could possibly happen. Even so, I think some good did come of it since you did start to open up. Now, we just need to have everyone else follow suit and start posting their experiences, but be honest about it. This could be what brings out the kink in a lot of people and makes them more comfortable talking about it.

abaya,

cycles baby, cycles. Remember when nancy, or buddha, hal, sixedmia, pinkie, ratbastid, lurkette etc used to post about this stuff non-stop? i think you're just hitting an 'upswing' and the board is in a down swing, in terms of what people are talking about. the only think i can think of that you need to start talking about it. not everything you bring up has to necessarily be a practice you personally partake in.

i'm not sure what the evolution of sexuality means, save for in terms of one's personal experience. people have been having their way with each other in every way possible for a long time. maybe virtual reality will bring a new wrinkle, but i don't know. its possible that you've evolved quite a ways since you started posting, and now you're not challenged by the sexual discussions going on. my guess is that it will break out again at some point, with a new coterie of members sharing how they knock it out. its just not quite there yet, or so it would seem.

i don't know where the line between vanilla and kinky lies, per say, but i think you started the thread because you're missing that type of conversation that used to be pretty common on tfp, but you're not ready at this point, and may never be, to quite post about it in full openness for the reasons you gave. got any admins/mods you *do* trust? they could post anonymously for you to get the topic started. of course, we'd need to get a bunch of people to post their stuff, anonymously at once....otherwise, it might be sort of obvious who is "anonymously" posting...

edit, and to add one to spectre's post - you started opening up. restraints can be kind of nice, but i've always found a belt will do the trick. favorite one is one of the style that went out in the mid nineties...no buckle, ergo no limit on where / how you tie things. then again, i'm more of a macguyver type anyways, so i'd rather make stuff up as i go.

if it helps you out, i'll tell you that i've partaken in all the stuff you mentioned, but the only thing that's been up my ass is a finger.

I haven't been on this board very long but from what other people are saying I don't think that it's a matter of "where did the kinkiness go" but more of "why aren't people talking about kinkiness". If you really want to hear some more of what people do maybe you should ask? Or someone else should ask, but you can't assume that people will do what you want them to do if you don't say it.

I agree with cadre, or if not just ask, at least bring it up in a casual way, a way where people would feel more inclined to talk about it. You just need to set the right kind of mood with your wording or people will just be scared off. At least thats what I think. But then again I am new here as well. xP

Here abaya, I'll start it for you. I'm going to start a new thread though. Hopefully this helps.

Yes... please come back... we need you.

And yup, you're right, same as spectre's comment. I did state this several times, including the OP. So I appreciate your (and a few other people's) understanding, I do.

I guess I thought "evolution" meant people changing their worldviews as a result of reading and partaking in this community. Being honest and human together. This community *helped* me evolve sexually... doesn't anyone else feel that way? I know you're out there.

I just feel like we've all become too chicken to be dead honest, myself included. Or it's some kind of joke (which is another way of distancing ourselves from something we don't like). Maybe this is just our current cycle... I'll wait it out, if so. But where did all those people go... it's been a long, long cycle.

EDIT: Damn, in the last 5 mins there was a flurry of new posts... and I am glad for those. Maybe this is going somewhere... cool.

My sex life has "evolved" due to TFP, but I very, very rarely post in this forum. I don't even know any TFP'ers in real life, so it's not an issue of comfort in that aspect...it's just that I don't talk much in general about what goes on in my bedroom (or living room).

How about those of us who have zero experience? I'm among the youngest here at 18 1/2, and I haven't chosen to even have intercourse yet. I just recently changed my mind on some of my values and decided that oral and digital was okay with me, so that's a big step for me! :P. In the future, I have lots of ideas about what I'd like to do, but that all depends on who I'm with and their level of adventure. My current gf is fairly open, but totally against a lot of the things that I think I would want to explore in the future. Example, analingus. When I first got here to TFP 6 months ago, I was shocked that that happened! I had no idea. (Also, not looking at porn doesn't help the situation of my knowledge base). I thought it was disgusting and would never even think about it.

As I've come to mature on these boards and throw off society's impositions that tell me anything kinky is wrong (I had hardcore religious parents) my ick factor's gone down by like a factor of 10.

Um, long story short. What about those of us who have no experience, but would be willing in the future to try stuff? We've got ideas too :). Granted, I've only been exposed to so much here, so I can't really introduce new ideas yet. But I can further discussion on some should the opportunity arise :)

EDIT: Heh, Abaya, yea, lotsa new posts :D

Hey, someone else almost the same age as me...thought I was alone in the age category...heh

I don't think I've shied away from talking about being the bottom in a BDSM relationship with my wife. I don't go into a lot of detail other than in PM, and don't start threads about it because I'm not really very assertive in that way. Besides, I don't really expect that anyone's going to find it all that interesting that I enjoy being tied up and flogged or playing Mistress/subservient games with Grace.

There are also some shame issues I still need to work out. I know that there's nothing wrong with anything two people do together sexually so long as it's consensual and done safely, but actually talking about it in a semi-public place, even one that's semi-anonymous like TFP, still can make me a little uncomfortable, not because I fear judgment--well, there's a little of that, but because of my anxiety disorders, there's a little of that with everything I do--but because I have issues about being open about things with pretty much anyone but Grace, and to a lesser extent, my sister.

I was not using jokes to distance myself. Spec said it better than I could. I was just showing you what could happen...being Devil's advocate so to speak. I can't say that this board has aided in my sexual growth. I've always been a pretty sexual person, I just don't talk about it unless I feel like it. But I never speak of anything in particular just because I think that it's personal between JJ and I.

I find that I was more opened talking about my sexual life when I was younger and before I was married. I would hang out with my friends and we would talk about all the ways we had sex and techniques we used and such. That was in my late teens-early 20s.

I just don't really have any strange expertise or kink that people don't already know about. I think kinky needs to be defined also. Abaya, I think kinky to you has become anything you haven't done (correct me if I'm wrong). As was mentioned earlier, people have been fondling, fucking, sucking, blowing, and restraining for centuries. It's hard to find something so out there that it hasn't been discussed before in detail.

My definition of kinky is something that turns me on. So some might think licking buttholes is kinky...I think it's disgusting. Some people might think toe sucking is kinky...I agree, especially if the tongue is in the gap by the big toe. But according to what has been mentioned here that isn't considered kinky by some people's definitions.

So, to begin this correctly I guess...what do you consider kinky?~or~What is your definition of kinky? And second: do you want this post to give you ideas about new things? Because it's hard to direct you without knowing what you like, what you have tried, and what you want to expand upon. I don't mind helping out with kinky ideas (whatever that means to you), but detailing my own sex life is not my thing.

Gilda, you're wrong about only one thing - others do find it interesting. I find it intensely interesting hearing about your relationship because I've never been exposed to one anything like it :). To be honest in a nonkinky way, I've always wondered what it'd be like to sex change to a girl, and if they could do it in a 100% successful way (i.e. I'd have working organs down there), whether I'd think about taking the option, especially if it was reversible. You let me watch through your eyes and sorta vicariously experience it, and this influences my decision. Also, I live vicariously through other people on this board to try and see what I would like to try in the future, and my horizons have expanded tenfold.

No, it's mostly anything beyond what I was taught as an evangelical to be correct and godly behavior between two Christian adults. I am not joking. Which means that I identify a lot with Jozrael and Gilda in the religion and shame factors.

For me, kinky is often anything beyond anal sex (I thought that was IT, when it happened... nothing more beyond that). And I do a lot more than that, now. But it doesn't always turn me on, even if I do it... because I'm still trying to figure out what turns me on. So far, most of my turn-ons are extremely vanilla, and I guess I feel a bit awkward about that. I try new things, but a lot of it is going through the motions.

And no, this isn't about getting new ideas. Believe me, we have tons of ideas. Books, videos, toys, everything. It's just a matter of me actually feeling comfortable, let alone turned on, by some of these things.

EDIT: Jozrael, I think your posts are great, especially your explanation of how you have evolved here... it sounds a lot like my own journey. I appreciate what you have to say, experience or not.

abaya,

i don't think you should feel too awkward about having a lot of vanilla (ie, sub anal sex) practices turn you on. i'd posit that there is a reason that they are "vanilla." because a lot of people like to do it, over a long period of time.

oh, and gilda -- no reason to be ashamed, although of course i understand that you have particular issues that lead to such a result. its kind of weird for me to think about your situation - i can't really do much of the 'fantasy' stuff...i'm too much of an engineer to get into it, really. i know that i'm still the same little pigglet, regardless of whether i'm playing vlad the conqueror or frank ponch or whatnot. so i think its very interesting, if nothing else just from the recognition that its a reality in your life.

abaya, i think its funny that you consider anal vanilla. is that because of your evangelical roots / it's ok as long as its not in the vagina stuff? i know a lot of people for whom casual anal would be anathema.

I went through a realization/struggle that maybe I was vanilla. Porn, magazines, and erotica played a huge part in that. I fought with this and tried many things. It got to the point where sex was more work that it was fun. I realized that we have a good enough repetoire for now and it's not worth making sex so much like work.

I said this before and it might have gotten lost in the rest of the post. However, if you are turned on and getting off and enjoying yourself, what does it matter if it's 'vanilla' by some people's standards? Yea, it's good to have some surprises and experiments now and then to keep the excitement or newness. However, I find that the good ole in and out, oral stimulation, and other 'vanilla' stand-bys are very enjoyable and don't have the stress of being in uncomfortable positions or situations.

I think that people think they are too normal and that has somehow become a bad thing. Why try to be comfortable with things if you don't have to?
Why are you pushing yourself to become kinkier if it's not turning you on?

Well, I'd say that no, it doesn't have much to do with the good ol' evangelicalism. It WAS anathema, back then... no ifs, ands, or... dare I say it, butts. :rolleyes: At that point in my life, it was daring if my boyfriend french-kissed me or *attempted* to remove clothing (he rarely succeeded). I was 19 then, and stopped him cold on both counts.

So no, anal is more "vanilla" now because it was where my husband and I started to experiment... it was the starting point of conscious non-vanilla-ness for me.

I would think that anal would be even more out there for evangelicals, not okay because it's not in the vagina. I think it's just that her journey's brought her to a spot where that really -is- vanilla to her. She's evolved :). Abaya, your comment that this should be the evolution of sexuality really struck home with me. I realize that I should be changing my opinions on sexuality, but I also realize that while I'm in one stage of growth right now, that will end. I'm becoming okay with more and more things, but at some point I want that to end. I'm not quite sure where yet...I'm fairlyreasonablyabsolutely sure that scat and other stuff will never even seriously cross my mind...but golden showers? I dunno...I've heard it described as a fluid connection between two people, so hell if I know. I'm not okay with it now, but I thought analingus was the most out there in the world four short months ago, and look where I am now.

Long story short, the stage of growth I'm in right now, and you were in it seems, is to be okay with more and more things. It seems like you've reached the edge, and you want more - you want the growth to continue? Well, perhaps it won't be at the same pace. Maybe instead of more breadth, you'll add more depth. You'll learn subtle tricks to play, or just learn to work more enjoyment out of specific things, or...I dunno :). I think you might just want to possibly revise your view of wanting to continue your exponential growth here.

Pigglet, I definitely agree that some vanilla things are going to be my favorite things no matter how far I go. I mean...ever since I learned of them, I think blowjobs have been the most intimate, sexual, amazing thing you could possibly do to someone - and I've never even had one still! That'll change soon, I believe ;) but that doesn't stop me from realizing that it's going to be one of the best things for me (I think. Actual experience will let me know for certain :)).

My accountant is a butch lesbian who I suspect is a few notches up the Autism Spectrum. That's like three fetishes right there! :thumbsup:

Seriously, though, I remember this place being a LOT more kinky in the past. I think you're right, abaya, that there has been less discussion of that sort of thing in the last year or so.

There used to be a lifestyle BDSM couple that posted here a lot. Her name was galaxygirl. His... geez... had an 8 in it somewhere, I think... Been a long time since we've heard from them. We used to have a couple of swingers who were pretty vocal about the lifestyle, though there's some upheaval in their lives at the moment.

There are still some freaks around here. And I'm proud to be counted among them--although the deviation-from-norm that I'm probably best known for around here isn't primarily sexual in nature...

To be honest, I don't know if I want more, at least not right now. There has been a lot of "being okay with more and more things" over a very short period of time, after a very LONG period of me thinking I would be vanilla till I died... and I think I just need time to adjust to what has become "okay" so far. This thread is partly about that, and I'm glad to know that others are joining in at last. :)

EDIT: YAY for ratbastid stopping by... you're one of the old guard, apparently. :) Thank you for your thoughts, and for being an honest "freak." :icare:

So, what's your primary kink, ratbastid? Huh, huh, huh? ;)

I read this over a few times and I can't help but wonder why avoiding the label of "vanilla" is so important to you. Really, what does it matter if you are extremely kinky or as vanilla as can be? As long as you're having fun, that's what's important and you need to do what works best for you and what you enjoy. Sex is all about enjoyment. Do what makes you happy, not what helps you avoid a label. :)

Well, a lot of it may be related to the fact that I lived as a "label" (Christian) for a good part of my life, and I have spent the last 7 years disassociating myself from it. I have stopped doing things that would cast me, in any form, under that label... going to church, praying, meeting in fellowship with other Christians, reading the Bible, perhaps even believing in God. Some of those things used to make me happy, but I did not want to be identified with what those things stood for.

So I guess being "vanilla" somehow associates me (and only me, in my mind) with being Christian, and I don't know why... but it does. There is no rationality to it, spectre, I must admit... but for me, the label still carries power for me. Something to do with repression/oppression, I don't know. I expect that I will "evolve" out of it, eventually, but for now I need to distance myself from it. I don't want anything to do with the Christian normal-curve, especially the parts of it related to normative sexual behavior.

The biggest part of it is that it may be connected to my abused background, which makes it somewhat difficult for me to see as acceptable. I know logically that how a thing came to be as it is has no bearing on the value of that thing--a lot of great art comes out of great suffering--but it's difficult to separate mentally when I talk about these things with others.

Oh, and I like vanilla a lot, also. I like a lot of variety, but as with anything, you need to know the fundamentals, so that when other things aren't working, you have that to fall back on.

Okay, please try not to take offense at this as it may come off a little harsh, but it's the truth and it really needs to be said.

I don't think that response will be very healthy for you in the long run though. The way I see it, even if you push yourself into the kinkiest and "least Christian" situation you can think of, you're still being controlled because you're not doing it out of a desire for that experience, you're doing it because of your aversion to being like other Christians. You're not doing this because the Christian group tells you to, but you are acting directly as a result of them. To me, even though you're doing the opposite of what they want, you're actions are influenced by them and you're still being controlled. So, no matter how long you continue on for, you won't break the cycle.

What you're doing right now is, you're waiting for something or someone to come along and put an end to that old label for you. You're going to have to realize at some point that you won't "evolve out of it" and that label isn't just going to go away. You're the one keeping that old label on yourself, and you need to get yourself to a point where you realize that you shouldn't have to worry about being that person because it's not who you are. Doing things you don't enjoy just to rebel against it, though will only make things harder on you in the long run. As I'm sure you've realized, if you're not enjoying it, it's very empty because if it had been working, you wouldn't be so concerned with the old labels and you would have noticed a major improvement after this long. There is no evolving out of it, just realizing that you're not who you once were and that you are not defined by a label about who you were nearly a decade ago. Take control and kick that label off of yourself. Don't wait for someone or something else to do it for you. I know that's easier said than done, but trust me, it can be done.

Side Note: I'm not arguing against kink, far from it actually. I'm just arguing that you should do what make sex more fun for you, because that's what's important. If you prefer vanilla, go with vanilla. If you'd rather have kink, go with kink. But don't go with either if it's going to keep you from enjoying the experience, because, really, what's the point then? :)

Don't forget that "kink" and "vanilla" are completely arbitrary and subjective labels - which is most of what is driving this thread. If there was ever a place to draw the line, unprotected heterovaginal intercourse is vanilla because it serves a biological function (procreation) and anything else is kink. After all, you'd only be doing it (however "boring" it might seem) for the sheer pleasure of the act, or some other ancillary benefit.

I say don't worry about it so much, because you're just chasing a finish line that is 1) in your head, and 2) moving.

I don't talk about kink on TFP because I don't really talk about my sex life with anyone other than my partners. That's just me though.

Hey spectre, thanks for the sincere thoughts. I'm not offended. But I think I need to clear up a couple of things before this discussion goes on (and btw, I did not intend for this thread to become a personal dissection of what vanilla and kink mean to me, but I guess it has taken that direction).

1) You have some aspects of it correct above, but it's not a 100% cut and dry thing. What I am talking about is a relationship of correlation, not causation. I DO try things because I am curious about them, not *just* because it's "anti-Christian." But many of the things I try happen to be non-Christian, and I don't mind that association, either.

For example, I didn't start masturbating until I was 22... and I didn't start because I wanted to rebel, but because I started thinking about sex, feeling horny, and a friend of mine suggested that it might be fun for me to experiment with myself. I gave it a try and liked it, and kept on doing it. I didn't feel guilty, I didn't feel like I was being "sinful," I just plain liked it and felt good about myself doing it. And, I also realized that Christians should not do "those" kinds of things and take such pleasure in it... so that was yet another step in my distancing, that I did not want the label that constrained me. But it was not a *cause*, per se.

Also, I was a wait-till-marriage type until I was 24 and went to grad school, dated a guy for a few months without sleeping with him (after 4 years of being single), then decided that hey... I really just wanted to have sex (though not with that particular guy), and I didn't want to wait until marriage. I just wanted to be with the right person, not necessarily my husband. Not because I was "rebelling," but because I honestly didn't want to wait anymore. I was curious about the experience and didn't want my wedding night to be the first time I "knew" someone, especially if I didn't get married for several more years. (Of course, the irony is that I ended up having sex with a stranger when I was drunk, which was not ideal, but the desire was already in place beforehand and I followed through with it.)

So, what I am saying is that while yes, I want to distance myself from being Christian and from sex that is "only for procreation within marriage," as ubertuber said (vanilla or not, I suppose), it is not purely because of a desire to "rebel." It's because it's what *I* want to experience and try and find out, to explore for myself... and always have, if I had gotten to know myself better at an earlier age. It's what some might call a "sinful" nature, and because it's inherent in my personality and I'm not sorry for it, I saw that as being inevitably irreconcilable with evangelical Christianity.

2) As I explore more with my husband, I find that there are things I am comfortable with, and things that I am not. I would not know where that line was until I crossed it, most of the time... and that is the process I am in the middle of, right now. I don't think it means I prefer vanilla 100% of the time, nor does it mean I am forcing myself to endure kink 100% of the time. I am somewhere in the middle... the line always moving, as ubertuber said.

However, it needs to be said that kink (at least my kink) does not happen in a vacuum of a relationship. I did not start this thread because I play with myself in a kinky way, or go out and find random partners to do that with. But my husband has a higher level of curiosity about kink than I do, and he often brings up new ideas for us to try. This can be pretty exciting, but it is not always easy for me to get turned on by new things. It takes me a long time to get used to things, especially if they were not my idea. That is something we are always working on together, since we have pretty much only been with each other, sexually, and *will* only be with each other, from now on. We are figuring out what each other's sexual needs are, and how to meet them comfortably. But a lot of the way I deal with new things is to talk about them, and this thread (like many others on TFP) is a way to ask about other people's processes of becoming comfortable with those kinds of differences in a long-term relationship.

Hope that all made sense.

I think there is a truth to the fact that an increased familiarity on the board can lead to being less likely to talk openly about things.

For instance, in "real life" I would never choose to speak to a colleague or some acquaintance about my intimate sexual fantasies. When I first started posting on TFP about five years ago, I was just one of many voices. I was anonymous and that anonymity allowed for a much more liberal discussion.

The real life hang ups were stripped away. However, over time I have found that while I am still way more open here than I would be elsewhere, I find that I hold back the more honest response. My life here has become increasingly like real life. and with it comes all of the baggage.

Yes, thanks for bringing us back on topic. This is how I feel, too, and I really miss the anonymity. Another forum I belong to allows members to log into a universal "Anonymous" handle and post about sensitive issues, and I really like that feature. Anyone can use it (abuse of the feature is minimal, and strongly reprimanded) when they see a need for it. The rest of that forum is pretty sub-standard, when compared with TFP, but that feature allows for the kinds of 100% openness that we seem to lose around here, once you've been to a few meet-ups.

I didn't answer your post directly, but I wanted to say that it's pretty much the second part of the post where I answered spectre (2 posts back).

I'm pushing myself to see how comfortable I am with it, because in my marriage we have different levels of comfort with kink and I would like to be able to enjoy it as much as my husband does (or at least be able to participate at a reasonable level). It is an important part of having a healthy sex life as a couple, isn't it? Meeting each other's needs and learning to enjoy that process. So that is what I am working on.

I tell you one thing - remove the nipple sucking, add to that "only once a month" and you're at risk of being accused of being my ex-wife. :lol:

lol I thought I'd always been pretty open about all the stuff Dave and I are into

to recap

we love BDSM, its our lifestyle
we love bloodplay
I love to have Dave's hands around my neck in a semi-pressure hold while Im coming close to orgasm
we love to chain other people up and introduce them to sensation play
he loves when I use the George the strap on, on him
I love when he and one of his select friends (just one, I dont mean to say that there are a lot of them lol) have a 3some
We both love knife and blood play
and...oh my gosh...we have sex when Im on my period and he earned his red wings a LONG time ago (on our first date actually)
**edit after rereading to add
analingus is fantastic
snowballing is great

and Im one of the few that admitted to fucking my first cousin when I was 18 lol

Im open to discussing any and everything and I've never been shy about my likes and dislikes (you will never catch me with a dick up my ass...but a finger is okay and welcomed :) )

Red wings is kinky?

Sheesh - geuss I'n NOT so vanilla. :lol:

Never thought it was kinky, just thought it required either cleanup after, or a relaxes attitude to mess.

This I suppose proves my point about things beign kinky to different people.

Daniel you have to consider, Im posting what I perceive the "general population" thinks is Kinky.....not me

I agree, Shani... and the TFP is NOT the general population, at least I hope not! Makes things more exciting around here, anyway.

Shani: what would be "a fetish too far" for you, if any?

well I dont understand the whole have your partner act like a baby thing lol Also golden showers and scat is to far out there for me

oh and either dave or I shaving our pubic areas completely so that we look like pre pubescent kids....trimming is good for us. He shaved it all off once and I think it was the first time in my life I had a hard time giving a blow job hehehe

Huh, interesting. I'm starting to think that "kink" is all a relative continuum... everyone can agree that at one end, you have regular ol' sex (in and out), but at the other extreme ("a fetish too far,") you have pretty much everything imaginable. And in between, all sorts of combinations and preferences...

I wonder if we all get shy about discussing our kinks because we all know we like basic sex, and everyone has basic sex... so it's safe to talk and joke about. But we don't want to name something that would show up on someone else's "fetish too far" list.

as long as its consensual and the people are of age...whatever turns them on is ok by me...there are just things that dont "do" it for me....Im sure some out there think that me fucking dave is "way too far" lol but hey....Im not doing it to them so I dont care.

Im all for giving pleasure as long as it doesnt make me wanna barf

So do you and Dave differ much in terms of what turns you each on? Or is everything pretty much mutual?

I am a relative neophyte on this site, so cannot speak to how kink friendly it is or is not. I can say, however, that the D/s lifestyle is often greatly misunderstood. An example on this site: a survey asking "how kinky are you?" One of the indicators of being kinky was being in to bestiality. That is not kink it is crime.

I've been reading this thread since the inception, and I'm mostly just amused at variety of what gets defined as "kinky". I've had fun shaving my wife and she's shaved me a couple of times, but my legs and chest are hairy enough to make it too much work for us. For Shani, that qualifies as kinky. My wife's not into anal at all (prior bad experience), so that qualifies as kinky for her. I despise the taste of my own semen so that's too kinky for me. Yet Abaya (I think) doesn't seem to find much kinky about any of that. It truely is the eye of the beholder that really matters here.

Not that I particular want to resurrect this particular thread, but a few months ago there was a discussion on the guy outside of Seattle that died after being fucked by a horse. Personally, I've never understood the attraction of bestiality at all, and I equate it scat play and pedophilia (Savage's "kink too far") as being genuinely unhealthy. There's apparently a new documentary out about this incident that has gotten good reviews and treats the subject very maturely. I'm afraid that I'd watch it just because of the train-wreck value.

Id say the only thing we differ on is anal....It hurts beyond any pain I care to think about and he loves it

and just to clarify on the shaving thing...we both shave each other...I do his shaft and balls and he does the whole lips/labia area for me...its the top part neither of us gets off on being shaved completely

Mistress Kali...amen to the misunderstanding. I wrote an article on Dave and I somewhere around here but I think the thread its in is missing :( I cant find the tilted magazine forum anymore

If anyone is interested in reading, that hasnt already, PM me and I'll direct you to somewhere else that its posted

Well, keep in mind... just because I have done some of those things, doesn't mean I don't still consider them kinky and sometimes "too far" for me. Trying something doesn't mean that one is a fetishist (and not that being a fetishist is bad, etc etc... just that being experimental doesn't mean it's enjoyable).

What, exactly, does that mean in this context? I'm really curious about the psychological "categorizing" of what is kink/not kink, and how this relates to degrees of "healthiness." Who gets to actually draw the line?

EDIT: Shani, yes please! :)

Abaya, both of your points are well taken. I guess that my point is that the work "kinky" is so subjective and not only varies from individual to individual but also varies from situation to situation. I've done things with girlfriends that I'll never even suggest to my wife since she's not into the precursors to those things. The reverse is true too (at least in past tense). Perhaps its time to retire "kinky" as a label.

As far as your second point, it also speaks to the above. Perhaps the use of "fetish" is better since that word has psychiatric ramifications. The fetishes that immediately come to mind (mostly because I used them above) are pedophilia, scat and bestiality. Of these, two involve partners unable to consent (pedophilia and bestiality) and two involve major general health issues (scat and bestiality). I'm not trying to particularly demonize bestialilty but it just happens to fit in both issues. I don't think that we'll find anyone to argue the benefits of pedophilia here, and I sincerely doubt that we'll have any horse-fuckers or shit-eaters step up to the plate either. However, both of the latter are fantastic ways to spread disease (Ebola anyone?).

I'm sorry, but as a champion changer of poopy diapers, I can tell you that fecal matter breaks down skin and causes infections unless it's properly handled. Spreading shit all over your partner will eventually make them sick.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with most fetishes, but I firmly believe that there are some that are doubtlessly unhealthy. Am I wrong?

Well, it could be argued that looking directly into the light whilst having sex could be potentially damaging to the eyes.

Ah, well in terms of just plain physical health, I agree with you completely. But for the sake of argument, some people might argue that gay sex is unhealthy ("diseases spread more easily through anal sex"), or that using dildos is unhealthy (especially the non-silicone ones... jelly rubber vibes/dildos are being slowly phased out for this reason), or that hell, premarital sex is unhealthy... so again, I do have to wonder who draws the line. Is it primarily an "ick" factor, on a very personal continuum? Or are there really universal "fetishes-too-far?"

If you're looking to me to define a "fetish-too-far", I can try. I guess it's easier to define the inverse first:

• Involves people with enough emotional maturity to consent
• Will not purposefully affect the short-term or long-term health of any partner
• Will not cause longterm physical harm or death

I've been as careful as I can in the wording here to allow for as many variations as my mind can handle. One fetish that Dan Savage picks on occassionally is folks that are into amputees, and I had that in mind when I separated the last two points. Being into fucking amuptees is fine and it fits well within these 3 items. However, having you partner cut off their arm because you like fucking amputees is unhealthy.

At the same time, I've heard of "bug chasers" from my gay friends. These are guys that have unprotected sex with multiple partners in the hopes of getting the HIV virus. I'm not entirely certain that they aren't an urban legend or at the very least a misunderstood group of very careless individuals, but they would certainly fall over the boundary that I've set up if the claims are true.

What do you think? Did I miss something? Is it worth continued discussion?

Edit: I suppose that I should also add something along the lines of adequate safety measures taken to prevent illness, permanent injury or death, but I don't quite know how to word it.

Mix it up a bit. :eek:

I've eaten horse :p

(waits for someone to point out that anyone doing anal has in a way "fucked shit") :lol:

A fetish, in psychological terms, is when the object of one's sexual attraction and/or stimulation is something that is not itself sexual in nature. Being attracted to a sexy woman in lingerie isn't a fetish. A strong attraction to the lingerie itself, separate from the woman, is. A fetish isn't necessarily unhealthy.

A fetish or other sexual practice becomes unhealthy when it has a negative impact on other areas of a person's life. If it interferes with relationships, with being able to connect sexually to other sexually mature adults separate from the fetish object, or has any kind of a direct negative impact on one's non-sexual life, it's unhealthy. If you cannot experience sexual stimulation except through the use of the fetish object, that's unhealthy.

Keep in mind that the disapproval of others does not, by itself, constitute interfering with relationships. It has to be something about the activity itself that causes harm to the individual practicing it, or, in the case of bestiality, pedophilia, incest, or coercion, another party.

I'm pretty sure that once something is openly discussed and widely accepted it stops being kinky.


The bikini used to be kinky. Fuck, just showing your legs used to be kinky.


Now we have to go all the way to licking someone's ass and duct taping someone to the bed for it to considered kinky. And that's just cause we have a wide range of fucked up people here. To some a blow job is pretty out there. And to me it's something I do just before breakfast and just after my first cup of coffee.


If you're looking a for a huge group of people that are gonna agree with you on everything you like to do during sex than you're in the wrong place. We are a place for diversity. And I like it. I'm free to talk about how much I enjoy coming on my girlfriend toes. And I hope that by me being free, someone that doesn't feel as free tries to be a little more open.

And if you have nice feet I'd like to talk to you.

Well, strictly speaking, what's wrong with incest? It's not my kink, but if it's with two mature adults, why not? Or, are you talking about the possible children?

King is bang on the money.

The understanding of what is kinky and what isn't has definitely shifted over the years. I believe the Internet has accelerated this sifting. Our ability to find images of kinky things and out ability to discuss them anonymously with other like-minded individuals lowers the taboo level to a point where you are willing to take your kink out for a test drive.

It makes me wonder what will be considered vanilla and what will be considered kinky in 10 or 20 years.

KINKY: marked by unconventional sexual preferences or behavior, as fetishism, sadomasochism, or the like.

UNCONVENTIONAL: out of the ordinary

SADOMASOCHISM: interaction, esp. sexual activity, in which one person enjoys inflicting physical or mental suffering on another person, who derives pleasure from experiencing pain.

FETISHISM: the compulsive use of some object, or part of the body, as a stimulus in the course of attaining sexual gratification, as a shoe, a lock of hair, or underclothes.

I think the problem in this discussion of 'what is kinky?' is coming out of the unconventional part. We know what the other things are. They are very straight-forward. Unconventional is the subjective part of the definition.

Underclothes can be considered kinky, only if they are unconventional for you. Example: I cannot afford to buy corsets because I would have to get them specially made based on my measurements. For me to wear one, would be 'out of the ordinary' in the bedroom and therefore is considered kinky. However, some people own a ton of corsets and therefore, they are about as kinky as a bra and panties. This is why the various stockings thread are getting people going right now. It's out of the ordinary to see on the board combined with the fact that it oozes sexiness and unlaying fetish tones. However, when mentioned people don't think 'oo kinky' because sex is not mentioned explicitly.

I'm just using this as a way to support the fact that TFP is kinky to some people. However, to others the topics mentioned here are ordinary so therefore not seen as kinky. This combined with the fact that many people have stated they aren't the 'kiss and tell' type is the reason why TFP may not be seen as kinky to some as it is to others.

I don't think I've ever cared what people think about my kinkiness and my sex life, even my friends say that I take it took far sometimes when it's really on the button for me. I hang it all out there so that I don't mislead people as to whom I really am.

Wow, I just sat here and read through this entire discussion. Interesting.

I tend toward the consensus that one shouldn't rely on labels to define themselves sexually and just do what feels good to you (all the "beyond the pale" stuff - which is to me, children and animals - notwithstanding). Besides, I tend to believe that all of us have at least a little kink in us...even if it only gets indulged in fantasy. Even fundamentalist Christians, I'll wager. I think I've already established that I am pretty steadfastly anti-label, lol.

As for talking about sex on tfp, I think I've done my share. I talk about my current relationship and things that we do, but I don't think I'd be comfortable relaying a blow by blow re-enactment of our time together. Other than that though, I'm completely comfortable talking about things I like and things I've done...or, have been done to me. :p Although it wouldn't be in my nature to start threads simply to talk about my own sex life.

and just as an aside...

abaya, you can purchase nipple clamps that are adjustable and allow you to ease into it. S'nice. :)

Well, you guys have definately opened my eyes to several things I'd like to try, as well as shocked me. But better to be shocked in private than IRL :) And I have never heard of knives or blood play 'til coming here. I'd hate to clean up after that ;)

I'd just like to chime in as someone who perhaps isn't as established here as some of you. There have been a couple of times, such as fantasy threads etc, where people have shared things, and gotten responses such as "wow" or had people comment on it, and when I post my own far out fantasy or experience it's as if people passed it by or chose not to comment on it.

Now I know I shouldn't take things personally and generally don't. Hell I don't comment on everything I read.

But if I am completely honest with myself, whenever I reveal a part of me that I wouldn't necessarily share with the outside world, I watch to see if I get a reaction from it. And if I don't, or if the reaction isn't what I wanted then it influences my future posts.

• Am I insecure? For sure.
• Is it stupid? Kinda!
• Is it rational? Not really.
• Why does it happen? I'm only human.

Anyway - it's one of the reasons I've chosen not to reveal too much about myself on the forum. I love and appreciate the way many people are able to be so open about many aspects of their lives, but I revel in the fact that while I am here, nobody knows who I am, so I can truly be myself in the areas I choose.

Couldn't have said it better myself ;)

^Yeah, I'll agree. I've gotten a much warmer response to my kinky lil self over on stripperweb....

dont feel bad Sharon....no one commented on mine either hehehe

I just keep going on saying whatever is on my mind :)

And I think that's just what makes you a great member of TFP. :thumbsup: One of my favorites, at least. :)

Sharon, I know what you are saying about "watching for a reaction." Maybe I shouldn't care what people say (or not say) about something extreme... but dammit, if I post something, I want a response in some form or another. But then sometimes I wish I was more of an anonymous lurker, and could just come out of the blue and say something hella out there and random... and no one would know who I was, nor would they care. That's when I almost regret being *too* active on TFP... because then I can't be as honest when I want to be.

But then again, what is a community if people aren't bold and up front and honest with their lives? Especially an online community. Why NOT go balls-to-the-wall and just talk about crazy-ass shit? I want to do it. I am getting there. These threads have been a great encouragement, so far. And I don't think I'm the only one feeling that way. :)

/checking out stripperweb... thanks Valentina ;)

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say people should feel bad or anything. I myself don't feel particularly bad about it, I was just trying to answer abaya's question, which by the way I thought was a great one. :)

Hehe. It's a great site. A few caveats there, though: First, I have credibility over there because I was a dancer for so long. I'm not sure if you are male or female....Males are certainly always welcome there if they are interested in strippers & the stripclub scene and express their interest in respectful fashion.

Women who are not in the industry are sometimes given a bit of a hard time initially, particularly if they come across as judgmental or clueless. That said, there are quite a few regular female posters who have never been strippers but really enjoy the site and are treated with affection by the other members.

There are two "sides" to the site--Stripperweb (aka "the pink side") and Stripclub Junkie Forum (aka "the blue side.") As you can guess, the pink side is more geared toward the dancers, while the blue side is more geared toward the patrons.

As you might also guess, the blue side tends to be a little raunchier....but one of the reasons I like it so much is that there are some incredibly smart people--male and female--who post over there. The discussions tend to veer between hardcore raunch and high-minded intellectual debate. It's great fun. That is where I have met the best response to my kinkiness--and not just from the guys, either. The women who post regularly on blue tend to be particularly smart and open-minded.

But even on the pink side, there's plenty of kink. If you're female, you can check out the Ladies Only section, which is where a lot of sex-related threads end up...and some kinkiness happens in The Lounge as well...

Lurk for awhile and see what you think...I love it, but I actually have to stay away during school semesters because it's so damn addictive.

Oh, you get to "the blue side" by clicking on the "Stripclub Junkie Forum" link toward the bottom of the "Forum Home" page...

Good luck!

I almost forgot about StripperWeb, I registered ages ago, read quite a lot and then didn't go back. I remember thinking my brief experience in stripping was quite different. I might go back and start posting actually just to get a feel for the community there.

^Interesting, Sharon. Where/when did you dance, if you don't mind my asking? (You can answer by PM if you prefer.)

I don't mind you asking, I'll just be slightly vague - it was for two months in Europe. I was 18, on a backpacking holiday and completely broke... not the best experience of my life.

Ohhh, okay. The only place I've danced outside the U.S. is Japan, and that wasn't really the greatest experience of my life either (though I loved dancing in the States). It's hard when you're in an unfamiliar culture, though, because you already feel kind of vulnerable.

Also, I don't know how long ago you were 18, but the business has changed alot in just the last few years, never mind the last 20. (I started in the late 80's myself, and it was a completely different business back then.)

So yes, I can see how your experience would be different. Most of the girls on SW are from U.S. or Canada, though there are a number of regular posters from the U.K. and Australia as well. Not so many from other parts of the E.U. And most of them are currently dancers, though there a quite a few retired old vets like myself...

k, I'll shut up now. Sorry for the threadjack.

Well let's just say that where I was, there was NO such thing as a no-touching rule. Touching was allowed, accepted, encouraged even. Fingers and hands were allowed. Things got worse if the owner's friends came into the club, because if you got called into the VIP room by the boss (which I often was, as the young, polite, soft-spoken English girl), firstly you didn't necessarily get tipped, and secondly you were expected to allow yourself to be pawed, fingered, embraced, kissed, etc sometimes by several dirty men. And to pretend you enjoyed it. Once I was even asked by my boss to pretend I was a younger girl for a few of his friends. I never had sex in the club but it was pretty close to the line.

Ok, sorry again for the threadjack... but to bring it back slightly onto topic, this is the kind of thing I'm not always completely comfortable sharing with anyone (including TFP), and my corresponding obsession with sexual situations with dirty strangers.

Well, I thank you for sharing it; it makes me feel more at home. :) I completely get what you're saying about the obsession with sexual situations with dirty strangers. (nicely put.) But I think that's always been a part of my fantasy life, since long before I ever started dancing....And I will admit that dancing, especially in lapdance clubs, was sort of a safe way to explore that dirty little fantasy....

When I first started dancing (still a teenager myself), there were pretty strict no-touching rules; it was pretty much all stage dancing. But that changed a lot over the years, and I ended up working in some pretty high-mileage, high-contact clubs (including the one in Japan.) I had mixed feelings about this, and I sometimes found it really hot, to be perfectly honest. Other times it was intrusive and a little hard to bear.

Hopefully this is all kinky enough that I'm not going too far off topic....:p