Guys expressing emotion: always ends badly?
 

I don't read this forum much, but I'm starting to read some of it now mainly because I'm going through a painful breakup... much worse (for me at least) than any previous breakup I've dealt with. I definitely care about this girl much, much more than anyone else I've been with in the past, so there's some uncharted territory for me here.

Anyway, after reading some posts here and comparing them with my experience (both with this latest girl and girlfriends in the past), I see something that might be a recurring theme. It's that once a guy expresses some emotional distress, the relationship reaches a point of no return. Maybe this is something that's cliche and has been discussed to death, but I kinda need to write it out myself anyway.

Now, with my relationships, if my girlfriend was having an issue with our relationship on an emotional level, we'd discuss it, maybe have an argument about it. I might disagree with what they were saying, but it would end with me consoling them, coming to agreement, doing something nice or romantic to show I care, then do my best to prevent the problem from being a problem in the future. I don't mean to say I placated them, but we'd just work it out.

But I've had a lot of difficulty getting similar responses from my girlfriends when I have an issue I feel I need to bring up. Sometimes I just need them to understand and console me, but it never ends up that way. It's always exploded into a huge argument that I never intended, or wanted, to have. This sort of argument has been the catalyst for the break-ups of my two most recent serious relationships.

I feel like I've seen similar things in other posts here... that once a guy expresses some sort of emotional distress, the girl backs away. It seems like in these situations the guy is just looking for a hug and a reassurance that the girl doesn't mean to cause any pain. It doesn't seem like too much to ask, but it can often be an impossible thing to get.


*edit* - took some stuff out that i don't think is necessary...

Any thoughts? Am I making sense? Talking out of my ass?

Females for the most part want a guy that is strong and protecive. If you show any weakness... done.


We aren't supposed to have emotional problems. All we are supposed to do is sit around and wait till we are needed. Why do you think sports and video games are so popular. It gives us something to do while we wait.

My girlfriend and I talk alot about our feelings. But I know she doesn't really pay attention to what I say. It doesn't matter to her. Not in a bad way. She cares about me. But only so much that will keep me around long enough to finish remodling the bathroom. She's not helpless my any means...


Anyway...


Don't worry about it. You'll come to a point in your life when you realize that what you feel isn't nearly important as how you react to how your girlfriend feels.

Spot on World's King. I have to agree. I have no experience, but I have seen PLENTY. Word of advice, keep her at arms' distance until WELL into the relationship. I'm willing to bet that what happened to you was before your one or two year anniversary, no? Huggy-poo and all that shit to a point, but she ain't your psychiatrist. It's been said before, and I'll say it too: get a dog. Better yet, get some good drinking buddies. The won't hug you, but they'll make you laugh, which is a lot more useful.

I absolutely could not be with a man that couldnt express his problems to me, my part of a realtionship is to share mine with him and to help him thru his. Communication is not a one way street, it needs to allow both directions and double parking if necessary. It is just as much the woman's responsibility to give emotional support as it is the mans.

contrary to what other people say, there ARE women in the world that understand this and if the person you're with cant emotionally support you, you dont need to be with them.

The story with the latest girl is convoluted, and if I were to explain it all, I know the advice would be to just move on. But, love is a harsh mistress. Or something.

Our relationship has only been "serious" (she has issues with that definition) for a couple months now. But before that, for around a year, there was a huge amount of passion, sexual and otherwise. As we spent more and more time together (I began to spend 4-5 nights a week at her place), I felt a sort of lack of affection, if that makes sense. I couldn't tell if she really had serious feelings for me. I called her out on it, and it blew up into what it is now.

I honestly think she has strong feelings for me. But my desire to have her express it caused this whole issue. She's been very receptive to me doing things I would classify as "boyfriend duties," but I just felt she wasn't reciprocating. All I was looking for was her to reassure me that she cared about me. A hug and a deep kiss would have sufficed. But she balked on it.

*sigh*... isn't it the guy who's supposed to be afraid of commitment? We were always more than friends with benefits. I think she became afraid to admit that to herself though....

There is less tolerance for men being emotional in society unless it's anger. Partly because some men are like that, partly because some men are shown by society that they are supposed to be like that, and partly because some women monopolize it. :)

Perhaps the reason it seems like the problems start when the male is expressing emotion is because they sometimes won't until the problem is serious or long lasting. As in, the problem already existed, and the male wasn't emoting about it.

Oh, and Moskie, don't get into long term relationships with takers when you are a giver. That seems a little vague, so I'll explain: there are two and only two kinds of people in this world - givers, and takers.

Three words you need to write down and commit to memory:

WOMEN ARE SELFISH.

Period. I'm not saying men are never selfish, nor am I saying there can't be awesome women like ShaniFaye out there who really care about their men, but for the most part, World's King had it right when he said :
Women keep a man around to fufill their emotional needs, not to fufill their man's emotional needs. My husband and I have a great relationship and even I find it hard sometimes to really BE THERE when he has a problem. I don't know why, that's just the way it is sometimes. But yeah, women are selfish. Why do you think we NEED our mani/pedis, our two hundred dollar hair cut, and our $500/month shoe budget? Women are selfish. My $0.02 (as a woman).

Now, I'm not saying that's OK. It's not, it's severely bitchy. I also am not saying it should be tolerated, or condoned, or allowed. I'm just saying that it's my answer to the question "why is she acting like this?"

Big fat whopping BINGO on that one. I've noticed I have this problem.

What will happen, is that when something is said or done that upsets me, I instantly am able to feel that I'm upset, but I can't instantly find the words to express why. I have to sit and think about it for a second (or a day) and figure what was done that actually upset me. By that time, the moment has passed, and it doesn't feel appropriate to bring it up. Until, of course, things pile up and overflow, and I blurt out a half dozen things all at once. Which doesn't turn out to be a very pretty situation at all....

I find myself reluctant to buy into these gender-specific ideas, like women are selfish and whatnot. But I have a feeling I'll need to take them to heart in order to make any sense of this.

this hits home too...


thanks everyone, you're being a big help.

This is precisely the problem... I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would need hours, or days, to simply express how he or she feels in reaction to some stimulus/trigger. Feel it, then say it... though saying it in a considerate manner is extremely helpful for communication and the sake of the other person's feelings.

Personally, I'm with ShaniFaye... communication of feelings goes both ways, regardless of gender, and should not be delayed by time simply because one has a penis. On the other hand, making emotional demands of someone without *being* there reciprocally for him (or her) when needed, is NOT what all humans with a vagina do. That's just wrong. It has nothing to do with genitalia and everything to do with how you were raised to communicate, what examples you had in your parents, and what you now believe to be an effective mode of being emotionally intimate with another person. All of those things interact with each other at unpredictable levels, and are very difficult to change once they're set, unfortunately. I would only agree with Sage so far as to say that women are often raised to believe it's *expected* to be selfish/demanding, whereas men are raised to believe it's *right* to be the provider... but those are entirely socially-constructed gender roles, and thus they CAN be changed. If both people are willing.

For the record, I am a woman and have never had a mani/pedi, I cut my hair when I remember (about twice a year, usually for as cheap as I can get away with), and have probably spent $500 on all my shoes in the last 10 years, total. :lol: Clearly, we are not all the same creature! :lol:

I'll give an example:

If one of us were to spend the night at the other's place, the vast majority of the time it would be me spending the night at her place. But a night came along where we ended up at my place instead. We were going to bed, getting a bit flirty, and then somewhere along the line she mentions she wants to go back to her place. It's late and we're partially undressed at this point, fully committed to spending the night at my place, as far as I was concerned. Her saying that caught me off guard, but I knew right away that it hurt. But I couldn't instantly come to terms with why it hurt. What did it mean to me for her spend the night at my place? What did it mean that she didn't feel comfortable being there? Did it even matter? And (girls being girls :p) I knew if I phrased what I was feeling wrongly, I could be in a mess of trouble that I'm not looking to be in.

Believe me, I *wish* I could go through that mental process in an instant. But I'm not able to...


I think I also have to point out that this girl lives for her mani/pedis, and has more shoes than I do socks. :)

It's amazing that women have such a reputation for being concerned, emotionally supportive, and nurturing, when in reality we're not. I know I'm not an exception here. I take far more than I give.

Hubby will gladly give me a massage and pick up on my cues that I need one, while I have difficulty giving him 10 minutes when he's had a very bad day. Now I feel guilty and think I should probably get off of here and go let him know that he's pretty damn important to me.

Heh, this sounds familiar... Now, if your hubby is anything like me, he absolutely loves to do things like give you backrubs. Making you feel good makes him feel good. But, every once in a while, reversing the roles would be really, really nice. I think this sorta represents where I'm coming from....

Lots of people can be selfish... I wouldn't necessarily say either sex is more apt to be than the other, though it seems when women are selfish, it stands out more. I have no idea why, other than the relatively world-wide and historically-pervasive societal "norm" of female subservience which has finally started unraveling in a lot of cultures- certainly here in America.

To that end, it seems like the very idea of a selfish, uncaring woman goes against all the long-held beliefs that woman are the care-givers, the nurturers, the ones who are more in touch with their emotions (or simply just more emotional lol), etc.

At any rate- male or female, people value a person who exhibit strength... whether it's the strength of constant stability and control of emotions, the personal strength to share emotions with their partner. Both are different types of personal strengths, and not everyone agrees which is the "real" strength.

As for the OP's dilemma, I think this is more about your feelings than your emotions. You feel as though you're the only one who cares as much as you, you feel as though there's insufficient reciprocation of what you call "[relationship] duties"...

As far as I'm concerned, a good relationship needs communication, and expressing feelings is an integral part of communication- especially when you're expressing that you feel you're the only one actually "in" the relationship.

Moskie, what would happen if you just said, "Hey, I feel hurt by what you just said." Not having to articulate or analyze anything, but just to stop her process of making demands and tell her, in an uncritical way, that her words caused you to feel some pain. Then, assuming she is mature enough to stop and say, "Oh no, I didn't mean for that to happen. Why did that hurt you?" (instead of getting defensive, which is a natural but immature reaction), hopefully you can tease out what trigger she hit when she made that decision and announced it to you. That is, to work out your hurt feelings out loud, through discussion, rather than internalizing it and expecting the woman to read your mind (can you read HER mind? do you like it when you're expected to read her mind? same goes for women getting a clue about men, my friend).

There's no other way for two people to understand each other's triggers... you've got to communicate about them in a non-accusing, dialogue-inducing manner, until the power from the reaction has been defused. If the feelings (e.g. anger) are too strong to discuss them in the moment, then wait a bit... but not too long, or the moment for learning more about each other, becoming more emotionally intimate, will pass. And those are the little moments when resentment builds... and builds...

As for "girls being girls?"... guys get defensive and hurt in a jiffy, too, as you've just explained about yourself. Phrasing things nicely is a key part of communicating helpfully, if you ask me, and it cuts across gender. It's just plain courtesy, rather than being snarky and defensive when feeling hurt. Tone is a huge part of reacting to someone hurting you; they're a lot more likely to be apologetic and understanding of what they did wrong, if you're telling them honestly that you're hurt rather than snapping at them in an accusatory tone.

Anyway, just me 2 cents, blathering on as usual... but let us know how it goes. :)

Everyone gets defensive and hurt. Asking someone to emote too much can be painful for either one. In my previous situation, I was the one not expressing my emotions enough until a situation got out of hand or intolerable. But at the same time, I'd expect him to be open with me when something was up. We knew each other long enough to pick up on behavior cues and patterns, but I was the one who kept pushing the openness without reciprocating. In my experience, people hold grudges or tuck things away until they build up too big to contain and that's counter productive. I realized later how I liked to hear what he was feeling or what was going on and I didn't allow him that priviledge from me.

It is quite stereotypical to state that men are looked upon negatively for expressing emotion, but sometimes it's true. I've lived my life always expecting people to open up (Hi, My Name Is Reformed Mental Health Therapist) without reciprocating. And I've been accused of not being feminine enough all of the time, because I'll open my mouth at work or with friends if something is bothering me, but if it hurt me or ended up being emotional, I'd sit on it. It's a shame, though, because when the dialogue can be established regularly it creates a more trusting and open relationship. If anyone really figures out how to do that on a consistent basis, fill me in!

I talked to my husband about this thread last night and he had an interesting theory that I would like to pose and perhaps get some feedback on. He said, when men are expecting nurturing from a woman, the woman tends to begin feeling 'maternal' and that he thinks this can really cool of a womans intimate feelings. I'm not sure I agree with him, though I do know I am far more likely to be nurturing to kids than to any grown up regardless of gender

I definitely wouldn't rule that out.

which is why I think violating that rule makes them run. Sure, as rational adults we'd all like to think we're... well, rational, and that we can communicate that way. However, I think the cavepeople instincts lurk not-too far under the surface and drive our actions more than we'd like to admit.

I have to say I'm very surprised at the turn of this thread.

"Women are Selfish". Hmmm. I'd expect something a bit less simplistic than that here. Honestly, that's a rediculous statement.

People are people. Some are "good", some are "bad". Some give and some take. Most people have a balance between the two--and it's ever-changing. Often it can be difficult, even with well-intentioned couples, to know when to suck it up, and when to speak up and protect themselves.

I agree strongly with this statement. I know I do the same thing myself (female here). It's also not uncommon for there to be signs of trouble, of one person trying (imperfectly, but at least trying) to address the situation, give signs of dissatisfaction with the situation, only to be completely ignored or those signs disregarded.

Moskie, I think that you are justified to feel the way you do, I know that the situation you wrote about would make me unhappy too...but it's your responsibility (and opportunity for growth) to say something right then and there. Believe me, I know it's not easy, but personal growth seldom is. :| Don't sit and stew on things until UNemotional discussion is not possible, and any disagreement is an inevitable precursor to a breakup.

Abaya's post is absolutely spot-on: memorize it. :D I will try to as well.

Good luck! :icare:

I think it might have been more fair of me to say that in general, PEOPLE are selfish. Given what Moskie has been talking about in regards to his girlfriend, the way she behaves, and especially the statement "I think I also have to point out that this girl lives for her mani/pedis, and has more shoes than I do socks.", his girlfriend sounds INCREDIBLY high-maintance. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it. She wants things her way, and when she doesn't get things her way she becomes aggrivated and starts a scene. She's perfectly fine expecting Moskie to be at her beck and call, but once he wants anything from her that's she's not immediately open to giving (like love, support, and emotional understanding) she backs away and gets defensive. Perhaps she's just the type of girl who doesn't like to get close to a man because she'd rather be able to drop the relationship at any time without any emotional tangle on her part.

Moskie, if what I just said doesn't sound like your girlfriend, then I apologize for mis-interpreting your posts. And Sultana, more often than not problems can be boiled down to a simple phrase or sentence, at least in my expierence. I was offering the position of her being selfish as a starting point for examining her behavior, not as an umbrella solution to the problem.

no Sage, it sounds like you're right on the money. The unfortunate thing is that if I were to try and point that out to her, she'd most likely deny it and claim that she *is* giving and understanding, and get defensive. She talks about things that she's done for me, but it's all things you would do for any friend, when I'm looking for something above and beyond that. It's very frustrating. I think I just have to accept that whatever it is I want out of her and our relationship, I don't think she's ready, willing and/or able to give it to me. Maybe I'm asking for too much too soon, maybe I'm not, but whatever the case, I'm guessing it just won't work out.

I realize I need to be better about communication. It's tough for me though, and you could probably psycho-analyze my relationship with my parents to get into that.

I do love this girl (and I don't say that lightly). We have a fantastic time together, when we're not fighting. But the fights get so intense... which I almost interpret as a sign that we have strong, legitimate feelings for one another, if we're able to let ourselves get so worked up about each other. It's hard to accept that we can't make it a fully committed relationship.

I think that's actually really interesting, do you think you can do a poll in the ladies lounge on that one?

It sounds like you just haven't found a good match for you... Everyone, male and female, has differnet want and needs. Some want a close emotional and open bond with their parnter, and some want someone to have coffee with every morning.

It sounds like the relationship you were in was a relationship for her. She stayed in her comfort zone. Her appartment, her emotional space, you were supposed to fulfill her needs. And like fredweena said... What you don't say and get off your chest today, is only going to build and be an issue later on...

All you can do is learn from previous mistakes, and try again... And I guess it depends on if you're looking for Mrs. Right... or Misses Right Now...

Either way... Good luck...

If you want a relationship to be equal, it has to be a goal and out in the open from the beginning. it's not something that can be sprung at a latter point in time.

And guess what? You'll NEVER get to the bottom of it as long as you keep it inside your own head. Things like that have to get worked out in conversations with other people--which is one of the things a relationship is for.

You mind is a bad neighborhood. Don't go there alone.

I really like that.

As usual, when I see discussions around relationships and expectations, I am reading a ton of generalizations.

Personally, I have never found expressing my emotions to be all that difficult and I have never been one to be uncommunicative. If anything, the fact that I have been with my wife for going on 18 years and married for 14 says that I have found the right match and that our methods of communication are working.

Relationships are always a lot of work and the work has to happen on both sides. The most important part is communication and what you communicate. Emotions are just a part of the package.

I'm with Charlatan and ratbastid... just because you are male does not make it impossible to put your feelings out on the table. I've always been that way and it's NEVER caused me issues in my relationships. In fact, all of my long-term SOs have praised me (not tooting my horn, just explaining) for exactly that quality. On the other hand, I'm not some blubbering drama queen with my heart on my sleeve. There's a difference. But trying to "be all manly" and keep everything inside? Screw that... not worth it!

What? No.

It's better to share things like that so that they can be worked out, not because your mind is a "bad neighborhood."

:lol: I find this amusing because I spent all of last summer working in bad neighborhoods alone (albeit during morning/daylight hours) and didn't feel terribly insecure. External circumstances never bother me much; it takes a lot to make me scared/nervous about anything.

But my own mind and emotional reactions do worry me, at times. Sometimes I don't like being alone in my own head, because it *is* a kinda bad neighborhood. I have had unhealthy thought processes, and usually the only way to correct them is to get them the hell out of my own head and on the table with another human being.

Bad neighborhood or not, I just don't think introversion does much good for anyone, man or woman, when strong feelings and emotional reactions to another person are at stake. We have all got to learn to communicate these things in a helpful, constructive manner, as Charletan exemplifies. Talking, talking, and more talking. And nope, the work never ends. I don't think it ever should, really... that would spell the end of growth for any couple.

I definitely agree. Internalizing things leads to wrong assumptions as to what's going on in the other person's head. Human nature (or my nature, at least) can assume the worst, sometimes, when reality is quite different. Actually, we've gone through stints (like right now...) where she won't talk to me for days and days after we have a fight. This has been the most difficult part to deal with, as I'm all but forced to listen to my own thoughts and nothing else. I think it's just another signal she's not interested in this being serious...

I'm getting the message about communication (ironic?), I'll do my best to work on it...

I hope it's not the consensus that it was me that fucked this whole thing up, though, is it? She's done some things that have hurt me, and I've brought them up. Maybe I haven't done so in the most immediate manner, but I am at the very least civil about it. Initially anyway.. things have gotten nasty when she doesn't own up to hurting me, or assure me that she actually cares about me. She mainly gets defensive and sarcastic ("oh yea it's all my fault, isn't it?" she says). It gets painful.

Certainly not from me, I can assure you. It was just that your thread topic involved a question about guys expressing emotion, so most of us responded to that. But I will tell you that the fault is never unequivocally on one person's side... there is ALWAYS blame to be shared. And from what you've told us about your girl, the error is definitely at least equal! :)

Fair enough. :) You're right, that's just what the topic's about.

See? The mind can be an awful neighborhood! ;)

You didn't fuck anything up.

You should able to voice your feelings without the fear that something bad is gonna happen. If that's how most of your relationships end maybe you should look at the types of girls you go after and how exactly you voice your feelings.

I know for the longest time I was very unhappy with females and relationships. I'd mainly just sleep around 'cause it was easier than actually dealing with bullshit. But then I sat down and realized that the only reason I was dealing with bullshit was beacuse some how I had surrounded myself with bullshit. I was in a circle of negative people that didn't give a flying blue fuck if I was dead or alive. So I left. I ditched 99% of my friends and stopped going to the same places. Now I'm happy. I'm free to express myself. I'm free to live my life how I want and I'm surrounded by people (and my girlfriend) that actually give a shit.

If you run into anyone in your life that wants to stop you from being yourself, you need to move on without that person.

Now I undertand that this post if 180 degrees away from my last post but... Both are true.


There is no simple answer to this.

I'm guessing you're young? Young girls tend to want the prince charming fellow and that tends to lend to situtations as you've described.

Now each girl is different. The key thing here is to always just be yourself and not have any expectations of the girl. Don't lay past issues with relationships on new ones.

That said, I've noticed that around 25 (each girl is different) girls tend to lose this whole "tall dark and handsome knight in shining armor" fantasy and get a bit more realistic.

You also gotta realized that there is a time and place for everything. There is a time to open up to a girl and there is a time to solve your own problems. Women are not like men. We like to solve problems. Lots of women just like to listen and be listened to. So make sure that you have tried to solve your own problem before bringing her into it. Also make sure that you bring it up at a good time. Such as after listening to her issues, or doing something nice for her. I.E. Also, and I can't stress this enough, when you talk about your issue, make sure that you don't come off as complaining. Make sure she knows that you're coming to her for advice. Bring it up in a manner that ensures she knows that you just aren't whining.

If a girl doesn't like you for sharing your emotions, and that is something you do, then she doesn't like YOU. This means she shouldn't be together. Sorry pal, it's just better off that way. Find a girl that likes you for you and not some charecter you are playing.

About our ages: I'm 25, and she's 34. A bit of an age difference, I realize... And she seems much more commitment-phobic then I would assume a 34-year-old to be....

Well, as it stands now, we've broken up. It was a very strange break-up, actually, that lasted all of last weekend. We understood early on that this was a "last hurrah" type of weekend, and that we wanted to end on good terms. It was near 72 hours of us talking about things, past and present. We came to terms with what each of us wanted, and how it didn't jive with what the other was willing to give. And we fucked a lot. It was strange, but I won't complain... sex with her is euphoric (man, I could kiss and tell for hours about the stuff we've done...).

I, very rationally, told her I loved her, more than I ever have loved another girl. I tried to explain to her that that's why I maybe got too emotional. She was understanding of this... She says she's been in similar situations in the past: she says she tends to attract very romantic guys, but she herself isn't romantic. And can lead to the situation we're in now. I told her that I was in a spot where I needed her to love me back, if things were to continue at all. But I don't think she, as a person, is capable of that. Therein lies the rub...

We kept it open that maybe we could get in touch in the future. But one thing I told her, explicitly, was that I was not going to be the one to contact her. I said it's mainly because I didn't trust myself to wait long enough. I knew I would want to call her the very next day. Or if I gave myself a 2 month time limit, I'd wait 3 weeks and pretend that was long enough. So anyway, if I wanted to move on, see other poeple, I needed time and space to get her out of my mind. To fall out of love with her. I thought I made this clear.

Things got sticky after the weekend, though. We parted on very good terms, after having a long heart-to-heart weekend. And it was my understanding that it was over for at least the near future. But after we parted on Sunday, I get a friendly, non-chalant email from her on Monday. It was a trivial email, but she contacted me. I responded... equally trivial. No idea what to make of it. Then she text messages me yesterday.. i can't get back to her right away, so she texted me again...and yet again. I eventually call her and ask her what's up. Again, it was something trivial she wanted to talk about. I bring up that we agreed to separate for a while. She says we agreed to be friends, and it was just friendly communication. I pretty much repeated what I wrote above, about me needing some time apart if we were to move on and be friends. She gets defensive about me saying that this was hurting me... and an argument ensued. god, it sucked.

There's only a handful of reasons why she would contact me, and they all seem unhealthy. She was either looking to pick a fight, which in her mind would make it easier to move on. Or she's being manipulative in order to... well, be manipulative. Or this was her very inadequate way of trying to win me back. The romantic in me wants to be believe it's the last option. We hang up the phone mad at each other, throwing away the good feelings I had from parting with her on good terms. I suck it up, and write an email to her, explaining that I just needed time. I say I'm sorry if it wasn't clear to her that I would need weeks to months of time apart. I tell her I'm not mad at her for contacting me, and I don't want her to be mad at me either...

I really think that she just doesn't know how love another person. God, that sounds so cliched, but I'll be damned, I think I'm learning it can be true. I think she contacted me because she recognizes we have something special, and she doesn't want to lose it. But she seems to have no idea how to make me feel loved and get our relationship working. It's such a shame that I had to come this far to learn that.

quoted for truth. time to move on. any girls want to come to my place and give me a blowjob to get my mind off things? k, thanks.

Twas a long post. Not sure if anyone will actually read all of it, and I'm not sure if I'm actually looking for advice at this point, but it's healthy to type it out anyway.

I hate seeing generalizations like "WOMEN ARE SELFISH" because how dare you label me when you don't know me. And if this is supposed to be a forum for critical thinking sweeping generalizations come across as really trite.

I think it would be wiser if people in relationships would just say when their feelings are hurt rather than pouting or getting all passive aggressive (and I've seen that behaviour on both sides, thank you very much).
And if a guy took the time to express how he was feeling I would totally listen. But I'm not a mind reader so it has to be said before I can respond. And that applies to any relationship....friend, lover, etc.

I actually find it refreshing to see men who are in touch with how they feel and aren't afraid to say it.

While I agree that generalizations and stereotypes sometimes fall far from the mark, everyone uses them so that they can effectively make sense of their world. Assumptions and catagories people create are designed in order to make quick decisions about a situation and the appropriate response.

I would like to say "most women are nuturing to their partners" but in my experience it is just not true. Nearly every single relationship i've had involves expectations on my behavior to not just listen to the woman's problems but actively work to help her with them, and "fix" things when she feels hurt that is not reciprocated when the script is flipped and I have an issue. This will even extend into lovemaking, as while she will certainly enjoy the pleasures I give her, it is an effort to get her to return the favor. Women take a lot in relationships, and i've found to get any balance in terms of support or reciprocation, I needed to set firm expectations of her behavior from the start, and from that point reward her for good behavior, which sucks because it doesn't feel like a relationship when I have to manipulate her just to get some measure of balance.

Love your honesty, Xera!
If a man's all alone in the woods, is he still wrong?
I'm guessing yes.

I wouldn't go that far, but I think that there's a tendency in that direction in many relationships, based on the statistically insignificant number of cases I've been in.

But then again, I clean less, I wash less, and do less of many other tasks. Dunno. It's probably a complicated equation overall.

Women, in general, are hypocrites when it comes to this sort of thing. I don't have much experience with the subject, but whenever I tried to share my feelings with my now ex girlfriend she'd give me the "I don't give a damn" attitude. Of course, she had no problems in talking to me for hours on end about her problems and her feelings.

This is perhaps not all that odd: My wife and I have been married for what seems like 180 years already, yet both of the previous posts struck a chord that echoed. I no longer feel alone in the woods, thanks! I'm working on it.

Wow, it has been long since I posted, but, unlike my relationship lately, I'm picking my battles. And therein lies the problem, just like most men and women in this thread. But after reading this, and I did maybe twice or three times, i feel less alone. The past two weeks have been my fiancee and I fighting; I don't feel appriciated and I feel like she is not returning like I am giving. But, if you think about it, isn't that normal. Perhaps it is selfish for me to demand her to be moe selfless.

And any woman who says it is wrong to consider women as selfish are foolish All people are selfish, women included, and it is one of the very few general statements that are true. Women, men too, are selfish. Deal with it. I'm trying to.

That was not at all the point of that rant.

Perhaps I'm being hypocritical but I have more respect for the people who say 'ya know what, I couldn't be with a guy who cried' than the people who say they couldn't be with a guy who couldn't. Largely, it seems that those people say that guys who don't cry are less capable of expressing emotion and those are the grounds they don't like it on.

I'm a guy who finds it impossible to cry. Yet, I express my emotions (esp. to my gf) better than most if not any other guy I know. Would you be against being with me just because I don't show it in the medium of tears?

I understand if someone can't be with someone who cries. The act makes them uncomfortable, so they'd rather not be with someone who breaks down on them. Gotcha.

But, there's no specific 'act' of not crying. Or, if there is, it's one many of us engage in every single minute of our lives. So, to be unable to accept someone because you make judgements about their emotional stability based on their lack of wanting to express said emotions in a phenotypically similar state is absurd, IMHO.

I'm not Moskie, but I'll give you my insight on this for what it is worth.

Sometimes something that someone, my wife for example, does, ticks me off or just plain hurts my feelings, and I am not instantly able to home in on what it was. And at times even if I can instantly identify what it was that she said or did that affected me in such a way, I cannot understand why it affected me the way it did. This scenario typically causes the following sequence of events:

1. Brain says, "we have been insulted, kicked in the balls, stepped on, or w/e" and acknowledges the feeling experienced.
2. Brain attempts to determine what recent event the unpleasant emotion is linked to.
3. Brain connects the event with the sentiment, attempts to determine why the event has caused the sentiment.
4. a) If this connection is discovered, brain commences to voice the concern/complaint. b) If brain is unable to immediately determine the cause, it attempts to suppress the sentiment and other affiliated emotions until the matter can be properly examined and processed in solitude or in the company of close male friends at a local refreshment establishment.

Of course, a man's brain can always entirely override this process, depending on the man, and he can simply lash out, tear shit up and yell, or just slam the door and leave. You might even think that this would be a better option, as the rage might induce him to be able to vocalize not only the sentiment he is experiencing, but the cause of it as well. Unfortunately, enraged individuals are even less likely to be able to communicate these things to another human being.

While many women may resolve issues and work through options via verbal communication, I'd dare say that most men are more comfortable, and even effective, when they do the resolving through an internal dialog, or monologue if you will.

As for this...In my case, personally, this would often not work, because if at that particular moment she would ask me WHY that (whatever it was) hurt me, I would likely not have an immediate answer, other than "I DONT KNOW, OKAY?".

The reason we go through that whole internal process is to avoid having to express unwelcome emotion and not be able to explain why we are feeling it. Since women love to ask WHY, I'd dare say we should have the time we need to be able to provide the answers.

Interpersonal relations are often a delicate balancing act. Hesays/shesays,
s/he reacts; the other one's feelings become the least of one's concerns when one is feeling too much. We lash out from pain and anger, angst or fear or whatever, and I've surely done enough of it. Some of it I'd take back if I could, but you can only go from where you are! Try to know where your center is and cling to it, I think.

Prince, I appreciate your detailed and insightful response. :thumbsup:

And call me a "why" woman, :) but for me, I am curious about why...
1) some (all?) emotions are unwelcome (who said they should be, in your life?)
2) expressing them is seen as a negative thing (again, who taught you that?),
3) and why all feelings need to be explained clearly? (I don't think they do, at all... in fact, in my experience, sometimes it's much better to express an emotion, even without understanding it, and have someone comfort you without a word...)

Do you think your reasoning re: emotions is a guy's-brain thing, or just something that any gender could inherit/learn, given one's upbringing?

I think there's a couple things to consider now... first off, when I imagine the stereotypical way things get resolved after a couple has an emotional fight, I think of things like the guy saying he's sorry, showing up with roses, or doing/saying something equally romantic to get things back on track. Now, is this because the guy is always in the wrong? Of course not. Women can be unjustly hurtful, too. It's just expected that the guy approach the girl first. Guys are supposed to suck it up and show the girl he loves her and wants her back.

But how often would this happen the other way, with the girl owning up to the guy? In my previous relationships at least, it seems like an impossibility. Girls are allowed to be emotional and affected to the point where they need to be consoled by the guy. When I've gotten to that point, my girlfriend usually questions my reaction, withdraws a bit, and essentially invalidates the way I feel. I think this also helps explain why I have trouble expressing what I feel immediately, since this is the reaction I've learned to expect.

So this is all well and good for 90% of the time. But there's that 10% that I have trouble dealing with. And maybe this isn't the way it is with most relationships... but it seems like the way it's been for me.

I don't think emotions in general are unwelcome exactly. I was referring to 'negative' feelings that might not be appreciated by the person they were directed to.
Actually, experiences with women did. Positive feelings were welcomed, negative feelings often not.
See, if only they did not need to be. But when someone does something to upset you, and you tell them they hurt you, they would probably want to know why. And with some women, even if you don't blame them for whatever has hurt you, if you don't go into the root of the issue, they assume it is about them.

Well that isn't really something that can be discussed without opening up a whole different subject matter, and I don't want to hijack Moskie's thread here. Suffice to say, I do believe that the way men and women of our species deal with emotions [and think, in general] differs greatly from one sex to the other. And the differences, interesting as they are in their own right, are potential minefields, when you consider two people trying to communicate emotions that are processed and expressed in potentially very different ways.

I will give you two examples, very real, from my own life, if you'll bear with me. (Again Moskie, I'm not trying to jack your thread man!)

Years back, when I met my wife, she was living in the States and I lived back in Europe. We would see each other about twice a year, and would correspond via email and snail mail. We were getting to know each other still, she was in college and I was off-and-on employed. I remember becoming very upset at her for the fact that she had been provided a lot of nice things in her life by her very well off parents...especially her nice car. Meanwhile, I had built my cars from totalled wrecks with the help of my uncle, and I had owned only cars that were pieces of shit...Fiat 127, Opel Kadett, etc. My cars were usually about 20 years old by the time I started driving them. This was when we were already engaged, just living in different countries. I became very hostile and bitchy about the whole business with her nice car, making a snide comment here and another one there. It pissed her off, naturally, and she would ask me why I was making those comments...but I didn't know. And I said as much. Eventually after much time by myself working through it all I realized it had nothing to do with envy, or with her having things easier (because in the ways that count, she hadn't), but with my own insecurities; not having a job, and soon having a wife to provide for, I felt threatened by the thought of not being able to afford all the things I thought she had grown accustomed to.

Second example: sometimes, after we were married, I would do things like spontaneously vacuum the house, or do laundry or the dishes. And she would be like, that's nice, provided she would notice. It hurt my feelings, and she could tell, but at first I wasn't really sure why. I wasn't expecting her to jump up and down with joy, but I was hoping for something. I couldn't explain to her why I felt suddenly so slammed down. Eventually, after some time taken to think about it, I realized that I'm not the guy who buys roses and chocolate...but I do things like that, stuff that she usually prefers to do herself (I never fold something right or w/e), as a sign of how I feel about her. By criticizing or ignoring the effort, which she probably just saw as me doing my part of the chores of the house, she was in a way belittling my way of telling her how I felt about her.

It is things like that, that are not always easy to explain.

Moskie, I can relate to some of the things you wrote about. I don't think it's a global feminine feature though. I really believe it's just who she is, and perhaps she didn't grow up around guys who were honest about their feelings. She may not know how to deal with it.

Would it help any to show her this thread, do you think?

God... this is exactly how i'm feeling at the moment with my current relationship of just over a year and it's tearing me up inside. The constant feeling of not being "wanted" or cared for by somebody who so calls "loves you" is something that I don't think I can take anymore. The time is coming where all cards will be laid out on the table. whether she decides to hold em or fold em is going to be up to her... But NOT before I let her have my two cents. All i can say is don't be a doormat to her. maybe showing some spine and letting her actually hear a piece of my mind and leaving her will snap her out of her mindset....... love F***ing sucks...

We're getting into the whole nature/nurture thing now. Here's my two cents...

A great many men (myself included) simply aren't equipped with the tools to deal with their own emotions. Grandfather tells dad that 'real men don't eat quiche,' dad passes this tidbit on to son and son, who uses dad as his primary model for exactly what a man is, doesn't eat quiche. Mum, whose dad didn't eat quiche either, may or may not recognize that this isn't precisely healthy behaviour. However, odds on are that she doesn't have the ability to do anything about it either; since none of the men she's been close to were able to express their emotions in a competent manner, she doesn't know how to deal with men on an emotional level.

Note the emphasis.

There are, by my observations, two ways that women deal with this. The first method, the one that Moskie has had unfortunate experience with, is that they buy into the stereotype. They tell their boyfriends that 'real men don't eat quiche,' and if the guy wants quiche anyway they ditch him. Or when he tries to go that way, they shut him down. I've seen (and experienced) women who will belittle their men in order to prevent that kind of behaviour and therefore avoid having to deal with something that they just don't know how to handle.

That leaves the man in a pretty shitty spot. He's already down about something and when he goes to the person who's supposed to give him emotinonal support, she makes him feel worse. A lot of the time, she makes him feel like it's his fault that he got hurt somehow, whether or not he (or she) inflicted the pain. And the man, who believes that women are 'more in touch with their emotions,' doesn't know how to deal with this. If he's lucky, he'll realize that the woman may well be wrong on matters of the heart after all, but he's still left in the tricky spot of not being to express any sort of negative or sensitive feeling without being hurt further. So either way, he stops doing it. He internalizes instead and finds ways to let off the stress that he feels. This isn't exactly a healthy way to go through life either, particularly since the man may well pass these behaviours onto any sons of his and thereby perpetuate the whole thing even further. Nonetheless, there are millions of men the world over who live this way and we haven't managed to wipe ourselves off the face of the planet quite yet.

The other way that women deal with this is by recognizing that men do in fact have emotional needs. However, these women are still not equipped to deal with a man in an emotional sense. They cope with this by expecting to relate emotionally to the man as if he were a woman.

I'll stop here for an aside, because I'm pretty sure there's going to be at least one woman out there right now who's thinking 'feelings are feelings and gender doesn't matter.' Which is great, except that in the situation we've set up it's totally false. If we assume that this man was raised by a father who wasn't capable of expressing his emotions and is therefore unable to express (or even recognize, in a lot of cases) his own feelings, then you can't expect relate to him the same way as you would a woman who's been taught that it's okay to cry and has the equipment to deal with her feelings.

The result of this is men like Moskie or myself. We come along and we say something like 'sometimes I get angry or upset and I'm not exactly sure why.' All the men in the room respond with 'Amen, brotha!' since we go through that. But the women are scratching their heads. They expect the men to have all of the same tools to deal with emotions as they do, so when a man says that he's missing the emotional equivalent of a saw or a hammer, the woman doesn't get it. She doesn't think it's possible that he could not have one of those, so instead she assumes that he does have one but he just isn't using it like he's supposed to. As a result, she tries to help him get into the habit of using it. She asks him how he's feeling, asks him to explain himself, asks him why he feels the way he does. And this makes the man feel even worse, since it's the equivalent of asking him to change the oil without giving him any wrenches. He doesn't know why or how or when or where he feels these things. He may have some vague idea that it has something to do with this or that, but mostly he just feels the way he does and doesn't really know how to get any more out of it.

I will take a moment here to point out that nobody in either scenario is behaving selfishly, although there are situations where their actions might look that way. The women in both cases are attempting to help their men deal with the whole emotional thicket, but neither approach is very effective. And the men, in turn, are responding to this as best they're able. Unfortunately in a lot of situations that means simply shutting down.

I don't pretend to know whether there's any inherent difference between the emotions men feel and the emotions women feel. I do know that neither my father nor my step-father were able to express emotions in any competent way. I also know that my own emotional responses are what I learned observing them. It was only recently and with the help of a very special woman that I was even able to recognize that there was anything at all wrong with the way I handled my own emotions and changing my behaviours is an ongoing and difficult process. I'm doing it alone and it takes a lot of time and reflection. Often I do spend hours or even days analyzing how I feel, why I feel that way and what triggered that feeling in the first place. I'm working on developing those tools, but it's a long journey.

Finally, I would like to mention that ratbastid does, as always, speak the truth. Not all men are like the ones described above, nor are all women. This is simply what I see as a typical scenario that arises from the whole 'manly man' stereotype and how it causes us to behave. If you want to change that about yourself, it really is better to do it with some emotional support. You'll be surprised and often highly dismayed by what's buried in your own sub-conscious and having a shoulder nearby to cry on if you need it is definitely for the best.

What can we do about sexism, pervasive in our world and this thread? I think interpersonal differences far outweigh any of the other differences we have and I become impatient with feminists for whom the only issues are women's issues, with religionists who seem to think that that's the only moral compass one can use, with sexualists who think there's only one right way to do sex.
Damn it, folks! This is a place where better things are supposed to start, and we seem to be talking about the same old shit. LYA!

Martian, thanks for that post. Extremely well-written, and it really helps me put some of the things that have been going on in my head into words. I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote.

Crazymodern... as Martian said, the gender roles could very well be reversed in some situations... but at the same time, I think it's important to realize that men and women *are* different. For thousands of years, men have been raised as men, and women as women. With that, each gender has had their particular roles to play in relationships. The aspects of those roles are becoming more balanced with each generation, but we can still fall into the traps that Martian described, whether we like it or not...

Thanks again Martian.

Thankyou, sir. Learning the differences between boys and girls was one of the truly exciting parts of growing up and I'm guessing it's a lifelong process.
I "know" we're different, but I'm still struggling towards understanding the magnitude of those differences. I'm still naively wanting to believe that it's just us here, and that interpersonal differences far outweigh the differences between any of our subtypes, the sexes included.

The simple answer is this Abaya... some emotions are unpleasent, and therefore unwelcome. And whats worse, some are unpleasent emotions created by a partner, or vice versa (you making them feel unpleasent). The discusion of said unpleasent emotions are just plain uncomfortable and unpleasent at times. This is not a taboo conversation to have with said SO but one that feels naturally unwelcome; I naturally connect pleasent emotions with my SO. I am also conditioned to make my partner feel as pleasent as possible when we are together, therefore I feel unpleasent when bringing up unpleasent topics. It's not that they are "wrong" to feel but experiencing them are just plain unpleasent. Perhaps in the "all emotion equals growth" sense then these are perfectly pleasent emotions but as a fairly emotional man I find it hard, at times impossible, to bring up unpleasent emotions with my SO.

And sometimes expressing emotion is a horribly negitive thing. Emotions are wiley, sly creatures and refuse to be pin pointed. I excell in expressing myself to my friends and family, yet even so I have trouble expressig clearly what I want to say to my SO. And even then I more often then not express a different opinion then I would like to give, digging myself deeper. Sometimes it is easier just to let it go, even when it seems hard to do. It may piss me off when Ashleigh tells me I say words wrong, even though I was born here and she imigrated to Canada four years ago, but me bringing it up in a well spoken and pleasent way still creates an upleasent tension. Sometimes it is hard for me to explain why it upsets me so much when she chooses others in her life over me becauses she realizes I will let it go when the others won't. Bringing it up means I'm not going to have a pleasent couple of hours. It's just easier not to express. Other times its right not to express them at all.

Snipped for length, but I agree with all this.

And not only is it not right at times to express them, but (for me, at least) it's very hard to know when to suck it up, and when to stand up for oneself. :|

Just getting back to this thread... and I wanted to say that from all the replies so far, I appreciate this one the most. A few years ago, I used to say that gender didn't matter... but I'm married now :lol: and know better. Indeed, we are different animals.. but for most of us (hetero, at least), we kind of have to figure out how to relate to another gender's brain-wiring.

From what Martian said, it took a "special woman" to learn how to identify and express some of his feelings. I am wondering if the process always works that way (woman --> man) , or if any women out there feel that they had a "special man" who taught them to keep their emotions more under wraps (man --> woman)? Or is the desire of all genders to learn how to feel and express in a healthy way, and we're all (regardless of gender) teaching each other how to do that?

And, I agree with what you say here, Martian... but what I want to know is, how do my husband and I raise our (future) son to NOT carry the emotionally-unexpressive torch? I envision our children being healthy (in all ways) and well-equipped to communicate and feel and not be intimidated by social expectations of their gender. I know it's probably impossible to do so, but I still want to strive for it. Tips? Do any men out there have reflections on what they wish their father *hadn't* done (or had)?

I think that's an interesting question, but before I make any sort of attempt at answering this, I want to stress to anyone who reads this or my prior post that I am not any sort of a therapist or behaviourist. I am not an expert here. These are simply my own views and opinions, shaped by my own experience and observations.

That said, I do think that children learn best by seeing. A son bases his opinion of what a man should be on his father; therefore, if you want a boy to grow up emotionally mature and expressive, the best way to teach that to him is to give him an example of a man who does the same. I doubt that will be an easy thing for dad to do, but then I also figure the first step in solving a problem is being aware that there's a problem at all. Aside from that, I think it's important to allow a child to express emotions and acknowledge them. You can't give your son the necessary equipment for recognizing and dealing with his emotions, since it's something that he has to develop for himself. You can help him on that path by allowing him to feel and explore his own emotions. Don't tell your son that it's wrong to feel a certain way; instead, explore with him why he might feel the way he does. If something makes him sad or guilty, sit down and talk about it with him. The part that I think is really great is that he just might end up teaching you as much as you teach him.

As to your other question.. well, I'd count my step-dad as my primary influence on me in terms of a role model, and I don't blame him for my own problems. He did the best he could with what he was given. Now it's my turn. I'll do the best I can with what I've got. Should I some day have a son, I will do my best to hand down the sorts of lessons and be the sort of man I want him to be. I don't expect to always succeed, but it's important that I try anyway.

There are tons of different women out there. Some are for you and some not. It takes a few tries to find ones that will be equal to you in certain areas. Emotion is one area there needs to be balance for a relationship to last. And that seems like what you want.

Humor balance is another tricky wicket to find in a mate.

Insanity balance is the last one that is really hard to find, but when you do, then you and your mate can help each other equally with all the stupid insane things you emote about. The hardest thing is to look for non-verbal clues as to what mood your mate is in at the time. There are good times and bad times to bring up emotional things. There are times when emoting right away is ok, and other times when sucking it up for later is best.

The hardest skill for me to learn was how to stop an argument before it got large. The emotions grab me and push me to keep the argument growing, but you gotta learn how to not use key words to inflame your mate when they are flaming you.

It's so delicate sometimes. Sometimes leaving sentences unfinished can leave your mate an opening to finish them, and voila... you are on the same page. Other times, leaving unfinished sentences might get you a whack in the shoulder. Forgiveness has been key to all my relationships that last. Is someone is picking fights with me too much, then it is time to leave and never look back.

Jonathan

Martian, this is great... thank you so much for your insight. What you say about allowing children to explore their emotions... that's exactly how I've been envisioning it in my head, to somehow let them recognize, access, their feelings... not stuff them away or be afraid of them, especially just because of gender. I really hope that with each successive generation, men (and women) become more balanced emotionally and less constrained by unhealthy social expectations of how they "should" deal with feelings. That would be a beautiful thing.

I really like what you said there. Particularly, I like that you've recognized that there are ways that people are expected to behave emotionally and that often those expectations aren't healthy for the individual. The reality is that there is no one ideal way to respond to a feeling. There's no right or wrong or good or bad to emotions and the sooner we can all realize and accept this fact, the better off we'll be.

Personally, I know the truth of it. It's the accepting part that I have trouble with.

The good news is, a child (or an adult for that matter) always has access to his emotions. Or, to be more precise, his emotions always have access to him. We don't really get a lot of say in how things make us feel, which is what makes emotions such a devilish topic to begin with. The part where so many of us men have trouble is the recognition and coping part of it. I know when I'm upset or angry or sad or depressed. What I have trouble with is why I am that way. And when I figure that out the next hurdle is what to do about it. I often have trouble with the concept that I should just allow myself to feel a certain way; in other words, that I don't have to do anything. Personally, I'm one of those guys who likes to fix things; I work with my hands a lot and if something breaks I'm usually first in line to see if I can get it back up and running again. If people and relationships worked that way I'd be all set, but they don't. So here I am, feeling angry and wanting to fix it. Trying to figure out how to fix it. What takes a while to get through sometimes is that I don't have to fix it. I can't always acknowledge right away that I'm allowed to be angry.

And this, ultimately, is what I mean when I say you have to allow your son to feel. He should absolutely be allowed to get upset about things; after all, he's going to whether it's allowed or not. The part where you and dad can play a role is in teaching him healthy ways to deal with these emotions and teaching him how to get to the root of them in the first place. Sometimes we're not always upset about what we think we're upset about. Figuring out the true cause of our woes is crucial to getting past them. The recognition and the response are up to you and pop; the two of you have to both show him and tell him what the appropriate responses are. One without the other won't be nearly as effective. It's the two combined and from an early age that will allow him to grow and learn how to do it on his own later in life.

Wow. I just came out of a relationship that didn't end well (and didn't start well, but alas) and was pretty shattered until I stumbled across this.

I feel a lot better about myself and everything having read it. This place rocks.

Sir, it does.

There have been tons of types of responses to this, mostly because everyone wants to put their two cents in (myself included). But as usual, the question was answered sufficiently pretty early on. I'm going to try to connect some dots along with my own input.

This all comes down to the difference between masculinity and femininity. Masculine energy is hard, dominant, strong, angular, and fiery. Feminine energy is soft, emotional, perceptive, curvy, and nurturing and caring. Males and females both have a mixture of masculine and feminine energy, but males generally have much more masculine energy and vice-versa.

Masculine is sexually attracted to feminine, feminine is sexually attracted to masculine. Also as an evolutionarily created gene protection strategy, femininity also happens to be attracted to masculinity which they perceive to be higher status or value than themselves (themselves being their only reference point). Women date and mate 'up'.

There is another dynamic though, which is the parental-child dynamic. In the science of transactional analysis, which is the study of the interaction between people in transactions of conversation etc, they talk about the parent, the child and the adult. These don't refer to actual age wise children or adults or parents being someone who has borne offspring, they are roles that people assume (and alternate between) in each interaction. The child is weak and needs guidance direction and protection. The parent is stronger and tells the child what to do. The adult is the unemotional middle between the two. Assuming the role of a child, will evoke the role of the parent in the other person, and unless someone with a strong frame resists it, assuming the role of a parent will evoke the child in the other person. Adults can speak equally. You might want to check out this short link before reading on: http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/ta.htm

In a sexual relationship, in a lot of ways, the male is taking on the role that the females father served earlier in life. He is hopefully a strong stable grounding force which helps to guide her. As I said, women date 'up'. In a sense they date towards the father, who is the original highest status male in their lives.

Your deleting a bit of information in this statement, which is: to whom are you supposed to be supportive and nurturing. Unless you have a more masculine personality, I'd be willing to bet that if you had children (or kittens or whatever) you would love to nurture them with most all of your energy. But a girl is not supposed to have to take care of her father in that way, because he is not supposed to be weak and vulnerable like a child or a kitten. Can you imagine if you were a little girl and your dad came home emotional and crying everyday, sniffling 'nobody likes me at work' or whatever and trying to seek your approval as a little girl? Thats not very fatherly. The same is true of her significant other.

This is spot on. When a man acts soft and weak and starts crying about something, what he is doing is taking on the role of the child, saying you are stronger than me and please guide me. This is extremely unattractive to a woman. She hooked up with him in the first place hoping he would be a strong influence she could look up to or at least count on for grounding. She will either freak out because she does not know how to react to it or it will evoke the maternal parent in her. This puts her in a position of higher status than him, bringing him down a peg in her mind.

Men and women can transact as an adult-adult equal pair, our psychologies are compatible this way. Also when a woman gets emotional, and takes on the role of the child who needs consoling and to be taken care of, it will evoke in the man (if hopefully he is able) the role of the parent to console her. Since women mate 'up', this is also compatible with our psychology. However, when a man gets over emotional and shows lots of vulnerability, taking on the role of the child, and the female is pushed into the role of the parent, she has no choice but to 'look down' at him in a sense. This is NOT compatible with the standard human mating dynamic.

This is not to say that a man can NEVER express vulnerability, but think of yourself as having a running score representing how much of a strong man you are in her eyes. The more you cry and act like a weak child, and the more you expect her to be your mommy and coddle you, the more your score drops.

This is also not to say that men are expected not to have feelings. Women do not want a robot who has no feelings. There is a difference between having and letting your feelings be known, and crying and being over-emotional. What is the difference? A robot without emotions has no idea if hes being mistreated or not. Women want someone who is passionate about getting the respect he deserves and being treated right, but who does it without pouting. Pouting about being mistreated is like begging to be treated right. Begging is how lower status people try to deal with higher status people. Heres an example. If she says something you don't like: say "I don't like it when you say that". Say it sincerely and with a strait face. That shows that you do have feelings and you respect yourself, and you are expressing those feelings to her. But don't get red in the face and tear up and say "*sniff* you hurt me feeeeellliinnngggss". That is a pouty beggar child way of acting.

Well thats the point of this whole thread, and the answer is the way women [have evolved to] react to it.

I suggest you don't try to raise androgynous children. You don't have to shove gender roles down their throats, but men and women ARE different. Don't tell him to be Rambo, but If you push your son to be too feely, hes going to grow up timid and effeminate. He will get bullied, and have trouble with girls. Let your kid figure things out for himself. Don't try to artificially modify his energy.

xim, that's an amazing point you just made. In fact, I don't think everybody on this thread is totally in sync with the meaning of "expressing emotions" vs. "pouting/crying/begging."

+1 on the raising of androgynous children

I was going to rip into the rest of you (abaya especially), but itt's not my place. I'll just draw a parallel to pet owners who feed their dogs and cats a vegetarian diet.

"Two cannot walk together in peace except that one lead and the other follow..." - somewhere in the bible.
My children, while not androgenous, are turning out non-sexist, I think...

This attitude is not becoming to TFP discussions. I'd appreciate it if you'd simply state your opinion instead of harboring an attitude of "ripping" into me or anyone else, or making vague assumptions about my character. Thanks.

So I'm a sexist am I? Such a typical feminist attitude toward anyone who implies men and women are different.

I'm pretty sure I implied no such thing: Feminists are sexists.
(tongue in cheek) Maybe I was just expressing emotion & it ended badly?

Men and women are different, but they don't have to be just in the ways that you're talking about. I'm incredibly emotional for my gf, even though I don't cry (that's just a psychological/physiological inhibition I need to eventually get over) and she is the same with me. We're very honest and needy of the other's support, and not in a bad way. We're both capable individuals, but the other person complements us so uniquely that we are able to break down our walls and expose what's really going on in our minds.

All of the above notwithstanding, she does have a negative reaction if she thinks I think of her as a mother figure - she wants to be my lover, not my mother. She has no problem supporting me at all, in any way. But she wants to be 100% clear that it is my SO, my lover, supporting me, NOT a mother figure. She said she doesn't ever wanna hear the words, "I'm sorry, but I think of you as more of a mother figure to me".

Like she'd ever have to worry about that xD

>>>Don't try to artificially modify his energy.>>>

A wise person said, "Anything a human being does is human nature." There is nothing artificial about raising children. Its a natural act and anyone can raise touchy feely boys and tom girls if they want to. Anyone suggesting how a parent should raise a child "a certain way" will be ignored pretty quick in the super market line. Try it sometime. I taught preschool for 3 years and never once did I suggest to parents how to raise their child. Parents asked me thousands of questions, but never once did they ask me if their child was too masculine, feminine, or androgenous. The parents molded the kids. Period. I was just a well paid babysitter. Most of the kids actually were mirrors of the parents in every way. There were one or two kids that did not seem like the parents, but they could have been adopted or perhaps abused or maybe the parents were abused and they kids were not. Who knows....

Jonathan

Well, it looks like its all been said.......although all the posts reminded me of this....

Why Men Can't Win

If you work too hard, there is never any time for her.
If you don't work enough, you're a good-for-nothing bum.

If she has a boring repetitive job with low pay, it's exploitation.
If you have a boring repetitive job with low pay, you should get off your ass and find something better.

If you get a promotion ahead of her, it's favoritism.
If she gets a job ahead of you, it's equal opportunity.

If you mention how nice she looks, it's sexual harassment.
If you keep quiet, it's male indifference.

If you cry, you're a wimp.
If you don't, you're insensitive.

If you make a decision without consulting her, you're a chauvinist pig, you bastard.
If she makes a decision without consulting you, she's a liberated woman.

If you ask her to do something she doesn't enjoy, that's domination.
If she asks you, it's a favor.

If you try to keep yourself in shape, you're vain.
If you don't, you're a slob.

If you buy her flowers, you're after something.
If you don't, you're not thoughtful.

If you're proud of your achievements, you're an egotist.
If you're not, you're not ambitious.

If she has a headache, she's tired.
If you have a headache, you don't love her anymore, and you must be sleeping around.