A person giving advice you have to buy, is just selling something...

[analog]

So what's the deal with all these people looking to give advice on how to better your love life? Surely, there are some people who will swear that the articles they write, the books they publish, the appearances they make, really do give them the "edge" in finding what they're looking for.

If, however, we look objectively at the advice we're getting, are we really just being sold? I think so.

People looking for quick answers and easy explanations will readily latch onto anyone promising better success with "finding" a mate. They use techniques that say they will increase your confidence, strengthen your determination... but are they really doing that? Are they not just selling a book to you, that engages your mind to believe that by reading their nonsense, you will somehow be endowed with never-before-seen confidence?

If you walk out into the world, believing your confidence has been heightened by a book, are you really not the same person as you were before? Did the book just give you a "reason" to go out and try things?

The problem is, these books don't just do that. They often promote ideals that are unrealistic, or even flat-out bad for a person to adopt. While the person is hooked on the rush of confidence the book gives them, they buy into whatever is told them

Many will tell you that "being yourself" is the worst thing you can do- that if "being yourself" actually worked, you'd not be there reading the book. This further reinforces the attachment people have with the book, and the need to buy more... so they can learn to not be themselves (?).

If you're not being "yourself", then you're being something you believe others want you to be, or something you think you should be, and that's false.

Confidence is good, but creating false confidence in a person so they will then believe anything you tell them, is bad.

Many also put down the male characteristics of sensitivity and sense of humor. To say that sensitivity and sense of humor aren't responded to well, i'd say they need to stop looking at women as objects to be "gotten", or "conquered" through use of attitude changes prompted by a guy looking to sell his books, and just truly be who you are, and see how wonderful the world is.

You're never going to be happy if you believe you have to change things about yourself to "get" a woman. The biggest gripe I have is the insistance that the traits they force upon you to adopt are somehow universal, and that if you do what they say, all women will fall to their knees in your presence.

What say you all to that?

[Suave]

The confidence of which you speak is not false confidence. False confidence is a facade of confidence used to mask insecurities. The confidence lent by these self-help books, whether or not their information is actually helpful, is very real and can be very useful. Sure, I think most self-help stuff is either entirely obvious, or absolute bullshit, but if someone can read it and gain the confidence that allows them to alter their lives, then I won't berate them for it. It's a social placebo effect, and it can work impressive results under the right circumstances.

[doncalypso]

The argument that "being yourself" doesn't work doesn't imply that you ought to change everything about you or that you're inherently a loser or a bad person.

The way I see it, when "being yourself" doesn't work it's because there are traits expressed in your attitude and behavior that women do not find attractive, or worse yet send them running for the hills. In my case, I was always way too overeager when dealing with women and I always came on too strong. Also, I was always too eager to spill out my guts for a woman that I liked so even if she liked me initially her interest in me would drop sharply.

When I started modifying my behavior towards women I didn't stop being caring or honest or respectful of women. I was still "being myself" in the sense that I never let go of the core values that define who I am and I didn't let go of the core values I hold with regards to how to treat a woman properly. But I did stop "being myself" in the sense that I learned to keep my mouth shut and not puke out my feelings for a woman right off the bat. I stopped "being myself" by taking the time to be patient and get to know women more instead of trying to rush things through. I stopped "being myself" in the sense that I didn't get caught up in the rush of emotions of the moment and took the time to determine whether a woman I'm interested in has enough interest in me to make it worth pursuing a relationship or whether I should move on to someone who's more likely to be interested in me as I am interested in her.

Does that mean I stopped being who I am and turned into a phoney? No. All it means is that I'm actively and constantly checking my behavior and the words that come out of my mouth when dealing with women so that if I meet a woman I'm interested in I won't send her running away for the hills and that I won't waste my time pining after someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about me because I'm just not her type.



Anyhow, when it comes to matters of the heart, advice/guidance in that area ought not to be sold for money.

[Siege]

Originally Posted by analog

You're never going to be happy if you believe you have to change things about yourself to "get" a woman. The biggest gripe I have is the insistance that the traits they force upon you to adopt are somehow universal, and that if you do what they say, all women will fall to their knees in your presence.

What say you all to that?

Well, on the flip side, maybe there is something they need to change to MEET women. I know some guys that don't speak to any females outside of their circle of friends, or people introduced to them. Depending on how often they are introduced to females, this can range from very little, to a small amount.

As for the universal traits, i'm not a big fan of how they make it sound like all women are the same either. While i'm willing to go as far as to say perhaps a fair amount of women will now be more attracted to you, saying that all of them will is just silly.

[doncalypso]

Originally Posted by Siege

Well, on the flip side, maybe there is something they need to change to MEET women. I know some guys that don't speak to any females outside of their circle of friends, or people introduced to them. Depending on how often they are introduced to females, this can range from very little, to a small amount.

As for the universal traits, i'm not a big fan of how they make it sound like all women are the same either. While i'm willing to go as far as to say perhaps a fair amount of women will now be more attracted to you, saying that all of them will is just silly.

I wouldn't go as far as claiming that developing this or that trait, or following this or that method, will make all women fall in love with a guy or drop on their knees for him, but if there was any moderate amount of interest to begin with and the guy doesn't come off as needy and desperate (as was my case back in the days) then it increases the odds of him keeping the woman interested long enough to get to know him and increase her interest in him.

I think one reason all those "relationship pros" and "love doctors" have a market for selling their material is because many guys acquire erroneous notions when it comes to dealing with women and relationships. Allow me to explain myself further:

For example, I was always told that if I liked a girl I should let her know how I feel about her and that I should shower her with compliments. What I was not told was that too many compliments too soon will turn a woman off, so I ended up making a fool of myself more often than not. If instead I had been advised to express how I feel towards a woman through subtle actions instead of words, and if I'd been told that a little mystery keeps a woman from being bored then I wouldn't have shot myself in the proverbial foot so many times as I did in my youth.


Yes those inviduals selling advice on relationships are just charging for knowledge that should be common sense, but the point is that too many men have to learn those lessons through the bitter curriculum of the University of Hard Knocks instead of benefiting from good advice from friends and parents. If fathers explaind to young men that they should go in very slowly when attempting to start a relationship with a woman and that they should not rush to spill all their guts out then a lot of guys would enjoy more success with women. Also, if young men were taught by their fathers, uncles, and cousins to pay attention to how a woman acts towards them rather than focus on how much they like the girl, then a lot of young men would seek relationships with women who are more receptive to the idea of a relationship with them rather than waste their time and effort trying to seduce a woman who isn't the least bit interested in them. If young men were taught that they must be at least moderately pleasing to a woman's eyes before she'll consider dating them then many would not waste their time trying to convince women to grow feelings for them through their sense of humor and sensitivity when a woman who's actually attracted to them to begin with would be a whole helluva lot more receptive to those same qualities of humor and sensitivity because there's already an attraction there.


In short, those "experts" on love and relationships have a wide open market to exploit because the common sense they're selling to their readers is often only acquired by the average guy after years of painful lessons and after having had their hearts shot to a million pieces. Let's face it, ladies and gentlemen of TFP... when it comes to relationships, some guys are very sharp and have a good innate sense of how to proceed with women and how not to mess up; but there are some guys (like myself) who are totally clueless or very dense so they have to go through several (too many, as far as I'm concerned) painful lessons that they need not have experienced if they'd been taught properly.

Have you ever considered that maybe the reason those self-help books on relationships sell not because of what is being said in them but because the information is presented in a way that finally 'clicks' in the reader's mind?

[Glory's Sun]

Analog: I think you should write a book.

[Jinn]

Seconded. I'd read it.

So.. 40 Year Old Virgin was a great movie that despite its comedic value has one quote that I can't help but repeat from it;

Jay: You're puttin' the pussy on a pedestal! [to Andy]

Nonwithstanding the blantant gender discrimination and the somewhat crude language (and I apologize to those who choose to be offended by it), it's got a brilliant point.

DON'T PUT THEM ON A PEDESTAL (or it, if you're really just after the vagina). The reason I hate these "get women fast" books is that they do exactly that. They build up this huge fucking difference between men and women; that we have such complicated sexual and intellectual boundaries that we have to write books upon books dissecting and diagnosing them. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus? Umm.. no.. last time I checked we all came about because of people fucking -- ON EARTH.

It's simple: we all want to live, be loved, and get fucked. On some base level, those three things are true about everyone. Granted there's a ton more similarities, but I don't want to defeat my point by writing a veritable assload of information about why dating books are ridiculous. If you start looking at women as human beings with desires and preferences not different from your own, you don't need books to help you strategize the optimal angle. You just talk to them like they're another person! Oh hey, look.. another human being. Yes, she has a vagina and breasts and likely longer hair than you, but that doesn't mean she doesn't want to live, love, or fuck. And hell.. if you're strapped for things to talk about.. I'll give you three topics that you both could elaborate on for hours..

[Sharon]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

And hell.. if you're strapped for things to talk about.. I'll give you three topics that you both could elaborate on for hours..

You've got me curious, go on then.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by doncalypso

In short, those "experts" on love and relationships have a wide open market to exploit because the common sense they're selling to their readers is often only acquired by the average guy after years of painful lessons and after having had their hearts shot to a million pieces. Let's face it, ladies and gentlemen of TFP... when it comes to relationships, some guys are very sharp and have a good innate sense of how to proceed with women and how not to mess up; but there are some guys (like myself) who are totally clueless or very dense so they have to go through several (too many, as far as I'm concerned) painful lessons that they need not have experienced if they'd been taught properly.

Have you ever considered that maybe the reason those self-help books on relationships sell not because of what is being said in them but because the information is presented in a way that finally 'clicks' in the reader's mind?

Most of your post could be said for just about any subject from finances to home buying, wedding planning to raising families, working and getting promotions to saving for retirement

It's exactly what you are saying PARENTS should be communicating this information to their CHILDREN.

It's pretty simple. It's pretty straight forward.

Self Help section in bookstores has grown by leaps and bounds over the past 20 years. My parents shared as much information as they could and continue to do so. Some parents may not. That's not to say that I don't have my own issues that drive me to the Self Help section as well. But the self help that I'm looking for isn't so much common sense such as what you've/I've stated above. I'm looking for something more in depth than common sense. I'm looking for specific skills, specific tools, that took other people a whole lifetime to master.

See what you are mentioning is just what is the problem with most people of today. We don't want to have to spend time learning ropes. We don't want to pay into the School of Hardknocks. No we want to know it now. We have self help books, cheat guides, cliff notes, etc. We don't want to do the work that it takes to get the real experience that makes it really more valuable than anything else which is TRUE experience. We are all too afraid to fail, we're all too pampered make mistakes.

[analog]

Originally Posted by JinnKai

...and I apologize to those who choose to be offended by it...

I love how you say "choose" to be offended by something... I'm going to use that in the future. It just sounds so good.

Originally Posted by guccilvr

Analog: I think you should write a book.

Hopefully you don't mean a self-help relationship book? lol

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

See what you are mentioning is just what is the problem with most people of today. We don't want to have to spend time learning ropes. We don't want to pay into the School of Hardknocks. No we want to know it now. We have self help books, cheat guides, cliff notes, etc. We don't want to do the work that it takes to get the real experience that makes it really more valuable than anything else which is TRUE experience. We are all too afraid to fail, we're all too pampered make mistakes.

Simply brilliant.