The infamous "Let's just be friends"
 

I know that once your game evolves you won't be hearing this anymore, and it shouldn't even matter if you do. But.. say you do hear the infamous LJBF, whats the most solid response? I've heard various opinions, some say just shrug it off like you don't care and she will come back. Others say that it could be bad timing so just say "yeah we already are friends" but act the same. What do you think?

This has happened to me recently, except it wasn't bad timing. I totally had this girl in the bag but I fucked up by letting her bitch shield get to me and I acted like an asshole, which she didn't like. So i got the LJBF. She said it was bad timing and for now we should be friends but she can't predict the future. My response was "i already have enough friends", but i'm second guessing. Maybe I should've said "yeah that's cool, i can't really see us being more then friends anyway" and been her friend while acting the same, minus getting her bitch shield get to me which i'm really disappointed in myself for.

Basically my question is: Whats the most solid response for a LJBF?

You should probably post this in the "Getting Girls" thread. That's as close as I'm going to get to giving advice here.

I find this both fascinating and depressing. It's not the question itself, so much as the tone. The "seduction" scene has all this weird jargon and acronyms and stuff. It's kind of creepy, all these guys huddled together speaking some strange language to each other about how to score with women. The topics were different, in the forts I made with my pals back when I was 8 years old, but the rest is identical.

How about going OUT among other humans? How about being YOURSELF? Whatever happened to HONESTY? Does our most basic human instinct--attraction, love and sex--have to be reduced to pawns on a game board? What a shame that is.

Or maybe it's just that my "game" has "evolved"...

/threadjack

or maybe you're just socially conditioned to think that "honesty" and "being yourself" is the right way to act.

Anyway, i'm not out to seduce her. If i was, i would've just said "fuck off" because theres many girls out there. I'm actually intrigued by her which is why i'm posting this thread

I'm not exactly sure on this answer, I ran into it recently but mine version happened to come pretty different. She likes me I like her yet things don't seem right at the current part of our lives, so ljbf works... For you it seems like it was a let down and with that I'm not sure what the right response is, but sometimes ljbf is a temporary thing.

Or maybe, it is the right way to act. Seems to have worked for ratbastid..:)

socially...conditioned...to think that honesty and being yourself is the right way to act?
Oh man...I don't even know where to start here. Well, let's start from the very beginning. How old are you?

edit
And what, by the way, is a "bitch shield"? :confused:

Age ain't nuthin' but a numbah, BOR. :)

Not true. Much like babies, children and young adults seem to go through the same developmental patterns at about the same age. Whats important to a 20 year old may not be important to a 40 year old, so age is often apparent in postings in places like this and obvious in actions.

I was wondering all the same things myself BOR

(do I have a bitch shield?)

If its something that shields you from bitches, I'd like to order two of them!

How to get past the let's just be friends can be complicated beyond all else ( ladder theory, playing the "game", trying to manipulate, etc )

I am going to agree with ratbastid and elaborate my own thoughts.

Be yourself, talk about the things you like, find out about the things she likes, and add those to the conversation. If there is a mutual physical attraction, then proceed to elaborate that, kissing, petting, sex, etc.

Not too complicated. Interacting with females is pretty simple. The best "pickup line" is "Hello" which funny as it seems is the standard greeting for the English language. If she is interested you will know immediately, as she will either keep up conversation or ignore you. If she wants to put you in the "Let's just be friends" category, and you want to be more than friends, COMMUNICATE and tell her you would like to be more than friends, if she doesn't feel the same way, move on. There is someone out there that feels the same way about you that you feel about them.

Wow, mbchills makes me feel old. I actually try to use actual terms you can look up in the dictionary when I communicate. I wasn't even aware I had a bitch shield. Nor that I should have developed a game. I guess I'm just not sophisticated enough. It's amazing my relationship has lasted four and a half years.

"Captain! His testoterone torpedo hit us full frontal! Bitch shields are down 40%!"

"Ensign, flood the engineering bay with Estrogen. Hopefully it will act as a energy boost to maintain the Bitch shields until we can retreat back to 'Let's Just Be Friends' headquarters."

Three for me - you've got to watch out for those bitches that come from above!

Ensign: "The shields aren't responding... Captain, surely we can't take another hit from that torpedoe!"

Captain: "I know we can't, and don't call me Shirley... Quick, initiate the 'Granny Panties' and get those GOD DAMNED SEXY CLOTHES OFF!"

Ensign: "Captain, if we take off the clothes, we will be naked! There is no hope!"

Captain: "Shit. Initiate 'I have to powder my nose' emergency measures, and let's try to buy some time..."

Engineering officer: "Captain, it seems that we have stabalized the Bitch Shield. All we needed was some Cramps and a Bad-Hair-Day."

Captain: "Thank christ. That was too close..."

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...itchshield.jpg

Edit:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...itchshield.jpg

Oh and another one...
http://www.bjreview.com.cn/200425/040617105258_3.jpghttp://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...2.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Before this thread moves into the realm of nonsense, I want to give a genuine reply.

mbchills,

If by "in the bag" you mean "sexual intercourse" then I have a very easy answer for you. This is guaranteed to result in the woman NOT saying, "Let's just be friends" and will guarantee the sex. They're called prostitutes.

Before you think I'm joking, hear me out....It's obvious from the tone of your post that you're not interested in anything more than sex at this point - which is cool. There's nothing wrong with wanting just the sex. You seem concerned with things such as "bitch shield" which lends a bit to the notion that you don't have a whole lot of respect for women in general - which is cool if you're into misogyny. Most people aren't, but hey...we're only young and obnoxious once, right?

Now, seeing as that your interest lies in getting laid and you have little respect for women, it would seem a shame to spend the money you must in buying the clothes, the cologne, the drinks, the music, the everything it takes to have your game tight. Think of the money you could save by just getting a hooker. You don't even have to get dressed up for them. There won't be any "bitch shield" to prevent the intercourse from taking place and she will have absolutely no interest in "just being friends". In the end, you both win.

Of course, the other option you have, if hiring a lady of the night isn't your bag, is to mature a bit, condition yourself to respect women, and you may find that instead of chasing girls, you end up with a woman.

Well, I personally would have just said "okay" and then stopped talking to her as much. If you just act like her friends then you will only be her friend. Once you start down that route, it's hard to turn back. However, telling her that you already have enough friends (while being funny as hell) pretty much ensures nothing will happen in the future also.

She probably thinks you're an ass for saying that you already have enough friends, so I don't know what to do to salvage that. Maybe just apologize for being a prick, then let her cool off for a while. Give it two weeks or so, and then maybe try again.

P.S. wtf is a "bitch shield?"
P.P.S. ignore all these douchebag threadjackers. But still, try not to sound like such an asshole guy in the future when making threads.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

OMG, that is the funniest thing I've read all day. Thank you Sultana. :icare:

I understand the gist of what you mean here, but calling everyone who made a joke a douchebag threadjacker might not have been the best choice of words.

OK, after reading through this thread, which is quite funny by the way, I will help in answering the op. However, there doesn't seem to be enough information to give solid advice. I'm guess that you are in the dating phase of life or trying to get notches on your bedpost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not exactly sure where you are in your life. And it seems like you are at a point in your life where you should experiment with different people to find out what you want and what you don't want. However, you didn't ask for this, you asked for the perfect response to "Let's just be friends".

Well, she's breaking up with you so it really doesn't matter how you respond. She's breaking up with you in a nice way, but doesn't have intentions of really being friends..unless you have mutual friends. Then she means she will tolerate you while you're around, but she's not into you. I think you should have added to your response "I already have enough friends...but I could put you on the waiting list." Now that's funny and she might get mad, but you're witty. ;)

Good luck in your adventurous voyage for finding love. And don't let the bitch shield get you down :lol:

I'm bad with words and exceptionally blunt.

hahaha, that's amazing. i'm using that if this ever happens again (hopefully it won't haha)

ok basically a bitch shield is something that girls have up because guys constantly hit on them, so they act like a bitch purposely to weed out the pussies. Now, usually a guy who is confident and awesome can get past the bitch shield by firing back at the girl, devaluing her, and thus letting him get to know the "real" her. My problem, is that on occasion this girls bitch shield comes back, and it got annoying.

Also, i'm not interested in just sex. If i was, i would've dropped her since vaginas are everywhere, I was actually intrigued by her.

The situation is getting weirder by the minute. She likes another guy, she was confused with who to like more when hanging out with me, and i made the choice easier by fucking things up recently. (maybe the reason for the bitch shield, to see if i'm worth it)

I spoke with her best friend today, who i'm also friends with. she told me that yesterday, at this comedy show, she was with her and that guy, and when I walked by the girl was freaking out that I would see her with the guy. and last night when i told her i don't want to be her friend she was really pissed that i didn't want anything to do with her

i'm thinking of just sitting down with her and saying "maybe i read you wrong but i got the vibe that you liked me and wanted to pursue something and so i acted on it. you're really hard to read, why don't you tell me what it is you actually want with me"

ill make it pretty clear i don't want to be just friends, if she objects then its over. I don't know what other choice i have.

I've given the "lets just be friends" line a couple of times, but I've always meant it. I'm still friends with everyone I've dated.

If girls have a "bitch shield" then don't talk to them. They're not "weeding out the pussies" as you suggest. They're probably either what you call a bitch, or aren't attracted to you.

And don't forget, she may actually be confused as to what to do. She may be attracted to both you and the other guy, and may not be ready to choose. Pushing things will make the choice easier for her though.

A plan that involves "devaluing her" is suspect at best.

This one is much better: "i'm thinking of just sitting down with her and saying 'maybe i read you wrong but i got the vibe that you liked me and wanted to pursue something and so i acted on it. you're really hard to read, why don't you tell me what it is you actually want with me.'"

P.S. I bet she think of it as a prick shield

You seem capable of rational thought in general, so I'm going to address this one specific thing you said because I think it has a lot to do with any frustration you've had with the opposite sex.

The simplest way to put it: you reap what you sow. This manifests itself on many levels in your situation. Let me see if I can break this down...

1) If you approach the dating scene like a game, you create a situation where somebody has to win and somebody has to lose. Odds are, you're going to lose some of the time.
2) If you require devaluing a woman to get close to her and you deem every woman who won't let you devalue her a bitch, then you're effectively cutting down your options to women with questionable judgement. This seems to me like a situation where everyone loses.
3) Now that you've effectively (by attacking the "bitch shield") narrowed all of your options down to only the women who have questionable judgment, here's the kicker... what's left to sow? Is it really a surprise that you're dealing with people who have difficulty communicating directly with you or treating you with even a little bit of the respect you seem to be demanding from them?

I didn't mean to threadjack by bandwagoning on that joke (though you have to admit it was pretty funny), but it's hard for me to take your OP seriously for exactly the reasons I have just stated. Now that you've expounded a little more on the situation and your views on life, I offer you my above response and suggest that you start trying to have more realistic expectations concerning your interactions with women... or I guess you could just settle for those vaginas that seem to be ubiquitous these days.

"Weed out the pussies", "devalue her", and the comment about social conditioning....

All i can say is oh _lol_

lol, yeah it is pretty out there!

Definition of a bitch shield

Supple cow, I think you misinterpreted "devalue" from the (marginal) context of mbchill's statement. Or perhaps it's just because I understand the jargon

I believe the meaning was lost when he shortened devalue from lowering social value. It's not actually demeaning a woman, it's more about changing relative social mindframes that both you have and the person you're trying to attract has. Reading it over, it sounds like a complicated sentence... Let's say an average looking guy introduces himself to a beautiful woman. The guy knows he's average, and the girl knows she's beautiful. Her social value (say at a bar) would be very high- she probably has attractive friends, and lots of guys try to pick her up. The average guy needs to "level the playing field" in order to pique this girl's interest. He does so by demonstrating a higher value (which is different than saying he has higher value ie bragging) and also by lowering the social value of the girl he's talking to (perhaps by a deceptively well meant but slightly negative compliment- ex. "Wow, I love your hair, is that your real hair color? No? Well it still looks very nice.") While it's really not a very nice thing to do, it's more about getting the girl to think "Why isn't he all over me like the other guys? He must be different" than actually demeaning her and treating her badly.



MbChills, you're interpreting the behavior from one specific environment and applying it to completely different behavior with different motivations behind it because it looks similar on the surface.

The bitch shield didn't "come back". Relationships are totally different creatures than seduction/attraction. According to seduction theory, the girl is giving you a "shit test" which is basically a control issue in addition to finding character/personality strengths and flaws. Compelling argument, and there may be truth in it.

It may very well be that she is testing you. It also could be a number of things- including what I believe is the most probable explanation: showing incongruity of character from what she saw from you at the bar to what she's discovered from spending more time with you.

I've met a few self described "PUAs" and those who aspire for that goal and the biggest problem i've seen is a deception, a certain character fraudulence. How can I describe this? Some people put on a mask for others to get them to believe they are something they are not. And instead of it becoming part of their character, the true personality and the fake one remain seperate and there is a struggle between the two which a lot of people will notice if they spend a lot of time with the person.

If you really are interested in women for more than physical beauty and sex, stop parroting techniques you read on the internet and get to know who you are and what sort of man you want to be. Accept yourself, know yourself, and most important be yourself. It's a true strength of character and the stability and confidence it brings will shine through to those who are important to you.

Yeah, that's what I think he meant also.

What is this? Middle school?

I still don't get why people feel the need to play games to get what they want. Being honest takes you so much further.

Go with this and ONLY this, man. There is no faster way to "disarm" a woman (in a good way) than sheer honesty. If she puts up her Klingon bitch-shield after that line, well... I'd have to say she really is a bitch.

(Sorry for taking a stab at the bitch shield, but I really did LOL at Sultana's comment... oh man. I feel old for not understanding "game" language.)

man.... like....

This takes me back to the good ole days of having crushes on people and snogging on the soccer field... except back then we didn't have sex, bitch shields or crazy acronyms...

I think the best advice I can give is.... grow up. It's a lot easier to get women that way.

Because the games work :p Bottom line, it's more fun. Now for those who care, here's where I'm coming from. Ideally, I'd like to be happily married with kids, a house, and a white picket fence. But I was very bad with people. Shy, introverted, nervous, sits in the corner, needs to comb his hair, etc. I used to think of being popular and likeable as, "You either have it, or you don't." My only social asset was my sense of humor. After a while, I just quit on people.

A few years ago, the idea of "people skills" has come to my attention. People. Skills. "It's a skill?!" I thought. That would mean that I could learn it. So I looked into it. While working at the mall, I had a chance to try this stuff out. Some was learned from books, some through trial and error. Still didn't hang out with co-workers. I got along better with strangers than the people I'm around all the time. So something was still missing...

A little over a year ago, I came across the whole PUA (Pick Up Artist) sence. Some of it is a little too sleazy, but there was one thing that has always eluded me, that caught my attention. Teasing. From the "Nice Guy"s point of view, it makes no logical sense at all. "He's being mean and she likes it?" When I was about 14, I was with a friend of mine when he and the girl next door were laughing and having a good time. The kind of fun were they would playfully punch each other and such. Then I tried to join in, "I'm not playing with you!" I promptly went home. But there it was. Online. In an ebook. A how-to guide on how to be fun around girls. And I made use of my sense of humor. My last mall job, most of my new co-workers enjoyed being around me. And one customer even gave me her number! I didn't have to jump off a roof any more, because people like.

Now although I just mentioned all the pros, it does have it's cons. First of all, the gals become attracted to you from the get go. And this is great for a short term relationship and/or a fling. But if she's at the point in her life were she's looking for a long-term relationship that would lead to marrage, then it's a turn off. The kind of emotion and affection required for such a thing isn't likely to build from someone who gave you her number after only knowing you for 10 minutes. That sort of thing takes time to build. Like when two coworkers are interested in each other and decide to be friends first. Then the start dating, and a few years later, they get married. There was even a poll here on TFP asking married couples if they slept together on their first date. Most of them didn't.

All in all, being good at the "game" builds our confidence. And who doesn't want a confident man? :cool:

Oh, I understood perfectly what he meant to say. I just chose to respond to what he actually said. I think a person's vocabulary can sometimes be revealing about their fundamental ideals and outlook. I'm not going to nit-pick and point a finger over word choice for the sake of nit-picking and pointing a finger, but you have to admit that this particular word struck more than one person as a peculiar choice. I bet after all the responses to it he got in this thread, he'll think twice the next time he's about to say it. Or not. Whether this makes him say it more or less doesn't even matter - I'm pretty sure he'll at least be thinking about it with a new perspective after this.

Anyway, my main point still stands...
What you describe is still turning an attempt to connect with another human being into a game (in the bad way). I'm all for the spirit of competition and such - I'm an ultimate frisbee player and we have that whole "spirit of the game" thing going - but I think the whole concept of "game" (as in the dating scene) is an inefficient tool. Or maybe it's just the wrong tool for the task.

That a guy would have to posture or manipulate perceptions at all still supports my point that there are a whole lot of unrealistic expectations getting thrown around (my previous point #3 being especially applicable here). You can't say something like, "I am having trouble reading you so it would help if you just told me what you wanted from me" and expect a real (as in genuine and, more importantly, TRUE) answer from a girl whom you've been doing your best to manipulate from square one.

I'll tell you straight up, mbchills: If you approach the situation playing games, the only girls who will take the bait are girls who play games... that means you can't be surprised when they play games with you! What incentive have you given them to be honest or straightforward? None. No surprises here.

/threadjack

I'll just point out to the rest of the "what the hell is a bitch shield?"/"grow up!" crowd that playing games is probably fulfilling on some level for some people who aren't us. I don't know if further deconstructing "game" is really going to get us anywhere.

To stay within the intended scope of this thread, it sounds like the best answer so far is, "I already have enough friends as it is, but I can put you on the waitlist." I bet you could even throw a wink in there and she'd think it was really cute. Or something. *shrug*

How about, "Sweet! My friends usually buy me drinks. Next round's on you, right?"

So.

She messaged me last night and said she wants to get together to talk in person. so we met up.
i had the aura of playfulness, positive energy, and the "i don't care about the outcome" mentality. we talked for about an hour, had amazing conversations. we told each other stories and really connected, i had her laughing and smiling the whole time, she was literally melting infront of me.
then about 50 minutes in I said "ok it's getting late, what are we here to talk about again?" and we talked.
throughout the convo she was smiling the whole time. she asked what i wanted and i said to be friends, but to explore and let things flow because i like it when things just flow. whatever happens happens.
and she liked the thought of that, then she's like "why are you the one who chooses our relationship?" and i responded with "because i'm awesome"
hahahaha
i kept vaguely mentioning how the friendship should be about exploring and letting things happened, she tried to test me by saying "what if i got a boyfriend" i responded "haha it doesn't matter" i said i had to go, as we got up i pointed to my cheek and she kissed me,

i handled it perfectly. i came in there with a carefree and fun attitude without being outcome dependant. even if nothing comes of this, i really don't care. i feel like i overcame a plateau

"Having game" is a subtle way of saying that you're so personality-deficient that you need to use mockery and "game" to convince the girl she should be with you. It's a "game" in that you're actually trying to compete for her attention.

Real men don't compete. She's either with you or she's not.

I hope you're happy in 10 years, but it's really a shame her "bitch shield" wasn't a bit stronger..

That's a good point to make, I just found it objectionable because you were attributing mbchills mindframe to a set of social tools people use to interact with others. The scene that most heavily uses these tools has, in general, a skewed(self-centered?) perspective on human interaction, but these social tools/aids/techniques are fairly benign and harmless in themselves. Their use does not a player make.

I'm having trouble getting a picture of what you think "the game" is. What i'm getting right now is that you liken it to a war- a battle of wits and deception to trick the other person into dating you; instead of a playful flirtation that demonstrates to the other social skill, a sharp mind, and confidence in yourself.
A person's game is not a mindset of how to treat the world and others, but a collection of social tools and abilities that help that person flirt, communicate, or interact with another person that they find interesting. Social skill is essential for functioning well in society and those who study it and play with the nuances are just using it at a different level. I have no doubt in my mind that you have unconsciously learned and picked up many social tools during your lifetime, that allow you to deal effectively and courteously with many different types of people. If you can even maintain a normal conversation you have learned a great deal about human interaction and how to communicate. There are many people who have great difficulty picking up on these social cues that come naturally to others, and of these people, there are those who will study social skills in an objective manner in order to be able to interact with others in a positive way, in order to better themselves.

I don't see how "game" is an ineffecient tool for the job of interaction. The way i'm seeing you describe game is that it's a mindframe of "beat or be beaten", and that anything used in context of "game" is fake, manipulative, or deceptive in some manner. This is probably the foundation of my disagreement with you. If you define "game" as the social tools you utilize to deal with other people, it contains none of the harmful attributions you've given it. In the context of attraction, it is not just a tool to be used, it encompasses all interaction with the person you're attracted to. You don't turn your game on in order to "pick up a chick". You use it every time you talk to someone, or meet the eyes of another, or just when you walk around in a public area. It is not an option to be used, it is all your social understanding together.

You use game when you flirt with a guy. Your body language, speech, laugh, tone of voice, it is all part of what you've learned to be effective in attracting another. Where you've caught on unconsciously to these things, the people who you've defined as "using game" actively study these things and break them down to component parts and analyse them to understand them better. They use the understanding to form techniques that are as effective or more effective than what they've observed. Even in the context of your definition, using game is more effective in seduction/attraction than natural learning.

I agree that it is not effective for intimacy or commitment, which are foundations for long lasting relationships, (well they are at least according to sternberg). because attraction is fickle and if the people are not compatible they will not stay together for long- and social skill/game will not make up for personality or character flaws in an appreciable manner.

Wow, this sure turned into a rant. I guess what i'm trying to say is that having "game" and being honest and straightforward are not mutually exclusive. The problems come when you attract someone by pretending you're someone you're not, and that truth is later revealed to the one you've attracted. And even if it is not revealed, you're still unhappy because to keep the girl you have to maintain the facade. I don't think it's a matter of "playing the game", but of avoiding lying to yourself about who you are and who you want to be.

Well, that sounds pretty cool MBchills- it's always good to have a hot girl/guy doting on you that you can hang with and enjoy a little bit of sexual tension with perhaps the promise of release!

I think I"m just too old and too married to think about stuff like this....

I think the problem that most of the people here have with this "game" stuff is when it involves using non-straightforward techniques ("devaluing", dominating conversations/situations/etc) in order to try to achieve some goal then it comes across as being manipulative, and most people find the idea of being manipulated to be unpleasant.

If "game" just means "how you act when you're out in public" then what's the point of calling it "game" and having a bunch of "techniques" and crap? It seems pretty clear to me (and I assume the rest of the people who have a problem with it) that this is crossing the line towards human manipulation in the same vein as agressive corporate marketing.

Read skier's post.

It's not that they're "personality-deficient", it's just another part of their personality. Like in a job interview, some one would naturally want to make a great impression. So you'll learn how to handle tough questions, turn negatives into positives, speak highly of your previous employers when ever possible, and try to read the interviewer to see what kind of person the company is looking for. And why are such skills learned? Because job searches are very competitive. Companies offer the best salary and benefits they can afford to attract the best candidates. And each candidate is trying to prove that they are the best qualified for the job.

And to quote Jerry Sienfeld, "And what is a date really but a job interview that lasts all night. The only difference between an date and a job interview is not many job interviews there's a chance you'll end up naked at the end of it." So there's nothing wrong with improving your "game" or improving your job interview skills. You’re just trying to be the best person possible in either situation.

You guys can argue all you want that it isn't "ethical" and that its "manipulative", but that's just bullshit. This is the best stuff that females react to. I respect women and i don't treat them like shit. There is nothing wrong with the game. It's just a more advanced form of social dynamics that works a lot better then "just being yourself"

And it worked, the girl messaged me today and wanted to hang out, she's very interested in me now. I told her i was busy and she asked about tomorrow, and the next day.

I completely turned around the whole situation, how many times has that been done when given the "let's just be friends" speach?
that right there says enough that the game works.
and no body is personality deficient, but it IS a game. why? because it's fun, if you don't have fun you'll lose.

That could very well be true, but hopefully you understand that your verbage lent to the notion that manipulation and disrespect were part of it. If you see it as a game, that's fine for you, but again, you need to understand that many people view this as nothing short of manipulation. You don't see it that way because it works for you. The women you attract with those methods don't see it as a game because they play it, too. To outside observers, it seems trite, childish, and manipulative. You can disagree all you want and you can point to success as proof that it works but that doesn't change how it's seen from the outside.

You use the argument that since she is now responding to you, it validates the "game". It could very well be that you were the one manipulated into chasing her down and she now sees you as easily controlled. I could be wrong, but without honesty, you never know where you truly stand or what is really going on.

If you're enjoying yourself, then in the end, that's all that matters, I guess. Eventually, though, you'll tire of this form of socialization and you'll find that women worth more than youthful gameplaying will not respond to whatever rulebook you're following at the moment.

Either way, it's your life and you have to live it your way.

I don't think you understand. You're using the techniques you've learned to replace real interaction- which is being yourself. Instead of gaining a skill to better express yourself, you're using them to distance yourself from emotional risk and connection.

You may or may not be personality deficient, I don't know you well enough to say either way. But I know from what you've posted that you will never be able to make a real, solid, stable relationship with another woman until you show your true self to them.

I'm not taking a side in this I'd jsut like to lend a little bit of what I was thinking upon reading these posts. Social interaction, especially with those whom we do not know well, is manipulative. Examine the rituals of our culture: we say, "Hello, how are you?" We shake hands or hug or even kiss. We do those things to put the other person at ease, in other words we manipulate them. Just because we are using techniques to make another person feel easy and thusly manipulating them, does not mean we harbor negative intentions. That's just one example of how everyone manipulates others in a social situation.

And on this idea of being honest... How much of the time are we even honest to ourselves? Why should we commit ourselves to be completely honest to others. I used to make it a point to be honest to my ex. Many times I'd tell her the truth... at that moment. Later my mind could have changed, but since I presented my thoughts at the time as honesty, it became incredibly hard to take those things back just because my opinions had changed. Honesty can be painful, not always nessecary, and worst, not always true. Apply that idea to someone we just met. We may be decieving them even moreso by being upfront and honest!

We project what we think are admirable traits in our soical interaction, what we want to be, or what the mean of our personality is. Just because you feel like shit one day doesnt mean all the people you meet that day have to know about it, and consequently assume thats how you are all the time. We owe it to people to show them who we usually are, or what we have every intention of being. Honestly, that's more honest than the truth of the moment.

Interacting is complex. The idea of just being "honest" is an oversimplification of the problem. You are just avoiding admittance that relating to others is difficult, learned, and at its core, manipulative.

Honesty is also intimacy... It carries a certian weight for you and the person recieving it. We should not be expected to share a piece of our inner self to everyone who we meet. That would be draining for us, and to assume the other person even wants our honesty is offensive to them. Forcing that level of intimacy upon early encounters is foolish. Most people gaurd their inner selves more than they do their physical selves, they would rather have sex with someone than share the deepest thoughts. Apply that to a new relationship. Being completely honest is like you had already been having sex before you even met!

Mead,

I have to admit you make an excellent point and in that manner this makes me rethink my previous posts. While I disagree with his methods and wouldn't utilize them myself, your post causes me to agree that we all manipulate to an extent, and therefore passing judgment on the OP in that light is a bit hypocritical on my part.

I guess we never think it's wrong when we do it for our own reasons.

Well gee, you know what, I did.

There are all sorts of gray shades in this quandry though. I really wasnt aruging for the original poster at all, I was rather just trying to break this arugement down to its core issue. There are certainly limits on how much one should manipulate others in our daily lives though, and I can't possible say what that limit is. I don't have that wisdom in the least. I only know what I would want from someone else, what my ideal would be.

So with this game stuff, what happens after one or two years into a serious relationship? Do you keep up the game all the way into getting married? Having kids? Do you keep up the game around your wife when she's pregnant, testing her bitch shield? Do you use the game in order to avoid taking out the garbage or washing dishes?

I may sound facetious here, but really... I don't see how any relationship starting with personality facades can last for a significant amount of time, given the realities of actual relationships. It seems that relationships started by "having game" must end shortly thereafter (no longer than a year, tops). At some point the truth has to come out.

Anyone seen the movie "About a Boy"? ...perfect example. :)

:D Did you like it?

If girls were as straightforward as guys are we wouldn't have this mess.

Girls can be flaky, ambivalent, wish-washy, capricious, which causes guys to have to resort to this kind of shit.

And no, that does not mean all the girls i've interacted with have bad character or whatnot. I've interacted with a few 'good' ones and from my friends' experiences as well, girls can be VERY fickle (even teh good ones).

And, seriously guys, you have to be yourself and honest, but you have to know how to present it properly. If you hang out with a girl only a few times, then, being honest, say "I like you" most likely you will get smack back and she will run. No, I am not scarred. But you just have to read it right.

And those 'game' skills the OP talks about just helps you navigate the social mazes. And no, that doesn't mean that only 'bad' girls play the social game.

If you step into a job interview and say, "I really really am super qualified and I totally want to work for you! Please!" I wonder how they will react. But if you play it cool, be confident, say it slow and steady, in a more proper way, you will do much better. Does that mean your being fake? Nooo.. you have to handle the social aspect too.

The argument would be: if you play the 'game', you attract only those bad-characters who 'play the game'. This just depends on what extent and how you 'play the game'. Like skier said, if you use it only as a tool to better present yourself, then bravo. If you act deceitful with it, then well, thats bad in my opinion.

I agree with teh respecting women part 110%, but really, you shouldn't tell people to 'stop chasing girls.' I mean, it doesn't happen magically all by itself. You have to at least be socially reaching outward.

Oh yeah, and the game that everyone talks about is basically flirting. I dunno what kind of mature, smart, honest women you guys know, but I'm pretty sure every normal girl flirts.

In the style of Carn,

Read abaya's post.

I can't fathom a relationship whose foundation began by "breaking down a"bitch shield" being a meaningful relationship. While I might accept that having "game" is an effective strategy for getting laid, I don't think anyone here can argue that it's a good strategy for HAVING A REAL RELATIONSHIP. You know, where the people talk about things that matter, love each other, and stuff..

I find this thread fascinating. The TFP community is usually very open towards different viewpoints yet this really strikes a nerve with the majority of members here, and the nature of the posts from both sides are quite aggresive/preachy/stubborn. Why is this such an important issue?

Good damage prevention and control :) Soma should note this in his social skills thread :)

Quoted for truth. I think this thread stinks of hypocrisy.

I think the intentions of the OP don't match the rather inflammitory language used in the post.

I understand that "the game" means flirting and social interaction, and taking control of the situations one finds oneself in, which to me is a good and admirable trait.

However, it's foolish to deny that use of value-based verbage like "devalue the woman", "play games", and the resoundingly popular "bitch shield" invoke an image of childishness, immaturity, penis-based thinking. The OP has since clarified his stance and added more information with what is, at least to this community, can be viewed as better, clearer, and more thoughtful language.

And the next time anyone refers to a Communications major as an easy, cheerleader-type major is gonna get bopped inthe back of the head! (see other threads relating to college majors and the like.) I could have thrown in something about context, but I figured that'd be gratuitous.

signed,
Your Friendly Local Communications graduate/douchebag threadjacker.

Well, I think that most people here think that the original poster is immature and/or a player. So are TFP'ers (as mostly really mature people) expected to be tolerant towards people who are immature? Kinda like the question, are tolerant people supposed to be tolerant towards intolerant people.

I don't think the OP is any of what I stated above, so I gave my honest answer and tried to be helpful. But some people I guess decided this thread didn't merit a helpful answer. Hypocritical? I dunno, but it kinda annoyed me.

:o :lol:

For what it's worth, I thought your post was funny as hell :icare:

I totally agree here. I feel it's more than just the context of the OP's subject. The issue of being a player or learning/using techniques for the express purpose of attracting women seems to be putting people on edge.

The terminology is certainly a contributing factor- instead of saying you broke down a bitch shield, you said you "broke the ice", the reaction I believe would be more favorable.

I'm sorry, but it is easy. Compared to.. hard sciences... engineering...

or a Philosophy and Economics double major ;)

god i hate Comm majors in my school, i'm writing a paper on Locke and Rousseau while my suite mates are writing papers on the color red in "Kill Bill"
hahaha

i envy people who get to write papers, period.

we have to do projects, weekly hw sets in every class, and labs too.

erg

I think what it comes down to is this: guys generally aren't very good at flirting, teasing, etc. It seems to be something that comes naturally to us girls. If guys are learning how to flirt, I say GREAT! We all benefit.

Also, I see the word manipulation mentioned several times in this thread... if you ask me, manipulation is buying a woman dinner and gifts to get her into bed or to pay attention to you. While I'll admit I like dinner and gifts etc, it doesn't necessarily make me interested in the guy. Flirting well will give you a much better chance of getting my attention.

And while personality may not keep a woman interested forever, it will at least get her curious enough to find out more about you, in a similar way that a good-looking woman will get you interested long enough for you to want to see if she's as cool a person as she is hot.

"Let's Just Be Friends" = The worst thing a woman could ever tell a man.

I guess the most solid response a guy could give is "sure," and then proceed to cut off all contact with that woman---if she's guilty of having led him on for a long time giving him false hope.

If she tells you this right off the bat before you actually start developing genuine feelings for her then it's cool, but I'd still suggest you take some time away from her to get your interest focused on other women before you renew contact with her as a platonic friend.