And now the NEXT Republican Congressional scandal: Randy Cunningham

[ratbastid]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/....ap/index.html

Rep. Cunningham pleads guilty to tax violations
California Republican admits to taking $2.4 million in bribes

Monday, November 28, 2005; Posted: 2:02 p.m. EST (19:02 GMT)

SAN DIEGO, California (AP) -- Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham pleaded guilty Monday to conspiracy and tax charges, admitting taking $2.4 million in bribes in a case that grew from an investigation into the sale of his home to a wide-ranging conspiracy involving payments in cash, vacations and antiques.

Cunningham, 63, entered pleas in U.S. District Court to charges of conspiracy to commit bribery, mail fraud and wire fraud, and tax evasion for underreporting his income in 2004.

Cunningham answered "yes, Your Honor" when asked by U.S. District Judge Larry Burns if he had accepted bribes from someone in exchange for his performance of official duties.

Cunningham, an eight-term Republican congressman, announced in July that he wouldn't seek re-election next year. But it was not immediately clear whether he hoped to keep his seat for the remainder of the current term. He planned to address reporters at a news conference later in the morning.

House Ethics rules say that any lawmaker convicted of a felony no longer should vote or participate in committee work. Under Republican caucus rules, Cunningham also would lose his chairmanship of the House Intelligence subcommittee on terrorism and human intelligence.

The former Vietnam War flying ace is known on Capitol Hill for his interest in defense issues and his occasional temperamental outbursts.

After the hearing, Cunningham was taken away for fingerprinting. He will be released on his own recognizance until a February 27 sentencing hearing. He could receive a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison.

He also agreed to forfeit to the government his Rancho Santa Fe home, more than $1.8 million in cash and antiques and rugs.

In a statement, prosecutors said Cunningham admitted to receiving at least $2.4 million in bribes paid to him by several conspirators through a variety of methods, including checks totaling over $1 million, cash, rugs, antiques, furniture, yacht club fees and vacations.

"He did the worst thing an elected official can do -- he enriched himself through his position and violated the trust of those who put him there," U.S. Attorney Carol Lam said. The statement did not identify the conspirators.

The case began when authorities started investigating whether Cunningham and his wife, Nancy, used the proceeds from the $1,675,000 sale to defense contractor Mitchell Wade to buy a $2.55 million mansion in ritzy Rancho Santa Fe. Wade put the Del Mar house back on the market and sold it after nearly a year for $975,000 -- a loss of $700,000.

He drew little notice outside his San Diego-area district before the San Diego Union-Tribune reported last June that he'd sold the home to Wade.

Cunningham's pleas came amid a series of GOP scandals. Rep. Tom DeLay of Texas had to step down as majority leader after he was indicted in a campaign finance case; a stock sale by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist is being looked at by regulators; and Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff was indicted in the CIA leak case.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Some thoughts:

1) It is, and remains, a BAD time to be a Republican.

2) I'm glad to see these dirty, dirty guys get their comeuppance at last.

3) What other rats are in the woodwork? If you can get $2.4 mil for being a senior but not particularly prominent Representative, what can a senior Senator get? Or somebody who chairs a committee or three? You KNOW there are other members of congress who are equally on the take.

[Charlatan]

I think it is safe to say that the Republicans to not have a strangle hold on corruption. It's just good to see those who are corrupt get caught, regardless of their political affiliation.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I think it is safe to say that the Republicans to not have a strangle hold on corruption. It's just good to see those who are corrupt get caught, regardless of their political affiliation.

Very true. I confess, though, that there's a certain sweetness to seeing the Morality Party brought low by this sort of thing.

[Elphaba]

I am very curious as to what Cunningham provided in return. It would be interesting to know what defense contracts Wade may have been awarded during his relationship with Cunningham.

I also agree with Charlatan that slimy politicians can be found in both parties.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Very true. I confess, though, that there's a certain sweetness to seeing the Morality Party brought low by this sort of thing.

So by default the Democrats are the Immoral Party?

We Republicans like to get rid of our bad apples when they are discovered. When it became apparent that the Gov of Il was a crook (and FINALLY indited long after) he was forced to not run again. He paid back the republican party by torpedoing any chance of a Republican in that next election and was a vocal critic of the party. It may have cost us the governorship (first time since the 70's) to a little shit union pawn, but we won't tolerate that type of person in office.

Basically Ratbastid all you wanted to do was say 'Republicans Suck' and thats a fine thread I'm sure but its a repeat and you should do a board search.

[Toaster126]

Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. (H. L. Mencken)

Corruption crosses party lines. Don't fool yourself into thinking that this is uncommon or restricted to a certain political ideology.

[Elphaba]

I found more information on Wade in the full AP article:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/112805X.shtml

San Diego-Area Rep. Cunningham Pleads Guilty to Conspiracy
By Elliot Spagat
The Associated Press

Monday 28 November 2005

Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham admitted taking $2.4 million in bribes as part of guilty pleas Monday in a case that grew from an investigation into the sale of his home to a wide-ranging conspiracy involving payments in cash, vacations and antiques.

*snip*


In addition to buying Cunningham's home at an inflated price, Wade let him live rent-free on his yacht, the Duke Stir, at the Capital Yacht Club. His firm, MZM Inc., donated generously to Cunningham's campaigns.

Around the same time, MZM was winning valuable defense contracts, and Cunningham sits on the House Appropriations subcommittee that controls defense dollars. In 2004 the little-known company based in Washington, D.C., tripled its revenue and nearly quadrupled its staff, according to information posted on the company Web site before Wade stepped down as president and the company was sold to a private equity firm.

An associate of Wade, Brent Wilkes, president of a Poway company called ADCS Inc., also gave Cunningham campaign cash and favors. Wilkes reportedly flew Cunningham in a corporate jet to go hunting in Idaho and golfing in Hawaii, and a charitable foundation Wilkes started spent $36,000 hosting a black tie "Tribute to Heroes" gala in 2002 that feted Cunningham with a trophy naming him a hero.

ADCS, which specializes into turning paper records into digital files, has received tens of millions in Defense Department contracts since the late 1990s. In some years, lawmakers on Cunningham's spending panel added the money themselves, even scolding the Pentagon for not requesting it in the first place.

Unlike Wade and Wilkes, the third man federal investigators focused on, Thomas Kontogiannis, apparently wasn't in the defense business. Like them he had a mutually beneficial relationship with Cunningham.

Cunningham wrote to prosecutors in 2000 on behalf of Kontogiannis, a New York developer then under investigation in a bribery and kickback scheme involving school computer contracts. Two years later, Cunningham made $400,000 selling his 65-foot flat-bottom riverboat to Kontogiannis.

Also, a company run by Kontogiannis' nephew and daughter helped Cunningham finance a condominium in Alexandria, Va., and his house in Rancho Santa Fe.

Kontogiannis ultimately pleaded guilty to fraud charges. He told the San Diego Union-Tribune that Cunningham gave him advice on attorneys to contact to explore getting a presidential pardon.

--------

Associated Press Writer Erica Werner in Washington contributed to this story.

Cunningham has been a busy fellow.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

So by default the Democrats are the Immoral Party?

We Republicans like to get rid of our bad apples when they are discovered.

Yeah. That's why Brownie stayed on the payroll for months after bungling Katrina, and that's why Cheney hasn't had his ass kicked out of office for trying to get authorization to torture people. If you like to get rid of your bad apples, you have a long way to go.

[kutulu]

It's funny how when reps get busted they are quick to point out that dishonesty exists on both sides but if we are talking about Clinton....

That said, I'm all for giving Washington an enema and taking out all of the garbage. The people need to stand up once and for all that we will not tolerate corruption from out leaders.

[Seaver]

This saddens me.

I've grown up around people who greatly admired Randal Cunningham. Being the first American Ace of Vietnam, he was a great man in the pilot community, and grealy respected by everyone else.

Not only that, but he took bribes in none other than military contract firms. You'd think this would be the one place where he keeps his morals.

Unfortunately he was corrupted, and he needs to get out of government.

[flstf]

Originally Posted by Seaver

This saddens me.

I've grown up around people who greatly admired Randal Cunningham. Being the first American Ace of Vietnam, he was a great man in the pilot community, and grealy respected by everyone else.

Not only that, but he took bribes in none other than military contract firms. You'd think this would be the one place where he keeps his morals.

Unfortunately he was corrupted, and he needs to get out of government.

Once he decided to become a professional polititian he probably got caught up in the business as usual corruption that most of his fellow polititians engage in. He was too obvious like an amateur and not slick enough to stay under the radar like most of them.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Basically Ratbastid all you wanted to do was say 'Republicans Suck' and thats a fine thread I'm sure but its a repeat and you should do a board search.

I figured that new evidence for that thesis deserved a new thread.

[host]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

So by default the Democrats are the Immoral Party?

We Republicans like to get rid of our bad apples when they are discovered. When it became apparent that the Gov of Il was a crook (and FINALLY indited long after) he was forced to not run again. He paid back the republican party by torpedoing any chance of a Republican in that next election and was a vocal critic of the party. It may have cost us the governorship (first time since the 70's) to a little shit union pawn, but we won't tolerate that type of person in office.

Basically Ratbastid all you wanted to do was say 'Republicans Suck' and thats a fine thread I'm sure but its a repeat and you should do a board search.

Sure ya do....ustwo...do tell!!! You tolerated this POS...and I'll bet that you never contacted your congressman when Delay "stacked" the ethics committee roster:
From the Wall Street Journal Editorial Page:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110006479
<b>Smells Like Beltway</b>
The real reason Tom DeLay is in political trouble.

Monday, March 28, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

By now you have surely read about House Majority Leader Tom DeLay's ethics troubles. Probably, too, you aren't entirely clear as to what those troubles are--something to do with questionable junkets, Indian casino money, funny business on the House Ethics Committee, stuff down in Texas. In Beltway-speak, what this means is that Mr. DeLay has an "odor": nothing too incriminating, nothing actually criminal, just an unsavory whiff that could have GOP loyalists reaching for the political Glade if it gets any worse.

The Beltway wisdom is right. Mr. DeLay does have odor issues. Increasingly, he smells just like the Beltway itself.

Here is the abbreviated rap sheet against Mr. DeLay. First, we have the imbroglio with the House Ethics Committee, which last year rebuked him on three occasions. Among his sins: He offered to endorse outgoing Representative Nick Smith's son in a GOP primary if Mr. Smith would vote "yes" on the Medicare prescription-drug bill. (Mr. Smith declined the offer; his son lost the primary.) <b>Mr. DeLay has since changed Committee rules</b> so that it can no longer launch investigations on a party-line basis, <b>and by packing the Committee with loyalists.........</b>

Answer me this...ustwo....although, a month after the above WSJ Editorial, the house did restore the original ethics committee rules, how is it that Delay remained the majority leader, if......as you claim....<b>"We Republicans like to get rid of our bad apples when they are discovered"</b> ?

How is it, while we are, as the POTUS claims, in a state of "war", that Scooter Libby was reported to have missed a daily staff meeting...on the day before he was indicted, because he was attending a "security briefing"?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in985742.shtml
CBS News | Leak Probe Cliffhanger Continues | October 28, 2005 08 ...
Rove attended the daily meeting of the senior staff, but <b>Libby did not and was said to be in a security briefing.</b> Libby misses senior staff about half the ...

In wartime, with what was already known that week, would it not have been a prudent idea to pull Scooter's security clearance, and Rove's too, for that matter ?

Elphaba....here is a report of MZM contracts, and some other interesting points in the same article......

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/p...02-cnsmzm.html
<b>Contractor pressured employees to contribute to Cunningham, three say </b>
By Marcus Stern
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE

10:02 p.m. June 21, 2005

WASHINGTON – Mitchell Wade, founder of the defense contracting firm MZM Inc., pressured employees to donate to a political fund that benefited Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham and other members of Congress, according to three former employees of the company.

Wade, who took a $700,000 loss on the purchase of Cunningham's Del Mar home and allows the congressman to stay on his yacht while in Washington, demanded employees tomake donations to the company's political action committee, MZM PAC, they said.

"By the spring of '02, Mitch was twisting employees' arms to donate to his MZM PAC," said one former employee. "We were called in and told basically either donate to the MZM PAC or we would be fired."

Many companies have PACs, but campaign finance laws prohibit employers from pressuring workers to contribute to the PAC. They may encourage contributions, but not compel them.

"It is illegal to solicit campaign contributions for the company's political action committee by the use of threats, force or threat of job reprisal," said Larry Noble, former general counsel of the Federal Election Commission and currently director of the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan organization that tracks the flow of money in politics.

"If they say to somebody, `You either give or you are going to be fired,' they have violated the law," Noble said.

MZM officials did not respond to requests for comment. In the past week, Wade resigned the posts of president and chief executive officer of the company, turning over those duties to Chief Operating Officer Frank Bragg, company sources said. <b>Wade remains the primary shareholder of the privately held, Nevada-licensed company, sources added.</b>

The resignations came after the Union-Tribune reported that Wade had purchased and then sold Cunningham's Del Mar house at a loss of $700,000 and has allowed the Rancho Santa Fe Republican to stay aboard his yacht, called the Duke-Stir, while in the nation's capital. The FBI and a federal grand jury are investigating the matter.

Since the initial disclosure of the 2003 home sale, Cunningham has released only two brief statements on his ties to Wade, saying that the home sale was "aboveboard" and that he has paid an undisclosed amount for use of the yacht.

Wade has made no public comment since his ties to Cunningham were first reported.

Wade operates out of the company headquarters, a four-story townhouse in the Dupont Circle area of Washington. About 20 to 25 employees work in the building, according to the former employees. They say the company has grown to more than 400 employees, with much of the expansion coming in the past two years.

Little public information exists on what MZM ... a name based on the first names of Wade's children Matthew, Zachary and Morgan ... does for the government. Former employees, however, say <b>much of its work is with three defense intelligence operations:

Counter Intelligence Field Activity, a highly secretive program created in 2002 by a Pentagon directive that focuses on gathering intelligence to avert attacks like the ones on Sept. 11, 2001.

The Army National Ground Intelligence Center in Charlottesville, Va., whose mission is to provide soldiers with battlefield intelligence.

The U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command at Ft. Belvoir, Va., just outside Washington, which also provides battlefield intelligence.

MZM has been seeking to increase its contracts with the Central Command, which oversees military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the Special Operations Command, both based at MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Fla., according to former employees.</b>

The three former MZM employees who said Wade pressured them and others to donate money to the company PAC declined to be identified, saying they feared for their careers if their names were disclosed. All continue to work in the military and intelligence fields.

They and other former MZM employees questioned the way Wade solicited contracts from Defense Department intelligence agencies during the time they worked for the company.

They also expressed <b>concerns about Wade's dealings with three House members who received a large portion of the money disbursed by MZM's PAC. The three ... all Republicans ... are Cunningham and Reps. Virgil Goode of Virginia and Katherine Harris of Florida.</b>

MZM's PAC donated $17,000 to Cunningham from 2000 to 2004. Donations included $12,000 to "Friends of Duke Cunningham" and $5,000 to his leadership PAC, the American Prosperity PAC. During the same period, MZM PAC gave Goode $11,000 and Harris $10,000.

Neither Goode's nor Harris' offices returned calls seeking comment......

.....In addition to the MZM PAC, MZM officials also made contributions to the House members' campaigns. Wade gave Cunningham $6,000 between 2000 and 2004.

<b>MZM officials and their family members gave Harris, who ran for Congress in 2002, a total of $44,000 during 2003 and 2004.</b> Goode received a total of $27,851 between 2000 and 2004.

MZM senior employees and family members gave Goode an additional $44,625 in March, according to information compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics.

MZM has a facility in Goode's rural Virginia district, not far from the Army National Ground Intelligence Center, which is one of MZM's key customers.

<b>MZM is also planning to buy a facility in Harris' district, where it can be close to two of its other customers, the U.S. Central Command and the Special Operations Command, which are in a neighboring congressional district.</b>

Cunningham is on the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the defense appropriations subcommittee, which puts him in position to influence the awarding of defense intelligence contracts.

MZM had 56 such contracts totaling $68,645,909 in fiscal year 2004, according to Keith Ashdown, an analyst with Taxpayers for Common Sense. One of those contracts is to provide interpreters in Iraq. For the most part, the contracts were awarded to MZM without competition through a process known as "blanket purchase agreements."

Ashdown echoed the comments of former MZM employees in saying Wade strategically targeted MZM's donations.

"A lot of people will throw a lot of money at a lot of different people," Ashdown said. Wade's "strategy was, `I need to make friends with a few very influential lawmakers and really, really schmooze and coddle them and that's how I'm going to make my money.' And that's what he did.

<h3>"The first person is Cunningham, a senior guy on the (defense appropriations) committee, and he helps them get business. Then they go to another guy on the (defense appropriations) committee, Goode, who's more junior but has the benefit of getting a facility in his district. And then they go to Katherine Harris, who isn't on the committee but needs lots of money for her Senate race and would be bringing business and new jobs to her area," Ashdown said.

Harris plans to run for Senate next year.</h3>

One of the former MZM employees quoted Wade as describing his congressional strategy this way: "The only people I want to work with are people I give checks to. I own them."

Another former employee said Wade used letters to remind employees before their employment anniversaries to contribute a designated amount to the company PAC. The specific amount was based on their level of seniority in the company, with more senior officials expected to give $1,000 each and less senior employees expected to give $500, the former official said.

A third former employee described being rounded up along with other employees one afternoon in the company's Washington headquarters and told to write a check, with the political recipient standing by. The former employee wouldn't give the name of the politician receiving the donations.

"When (employers) solicit contributions to the political action committee, they are supposed to say that the contribution is voluntary," said Noble, the former general counsel of the Federal Elections Commission. "They are allowed to suggest an amount to give, but they have to say you can give more or less, or nothing at all.

"And they have to say that there will be no job reprisals for not giving. So even being silent on it and soliciting contributions is, actually, technically a violation of the law," Noble said.."

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a group with ties to the Democratic Party, lodged a complaint Tuesday with the Federal Election Commission after a Copley News Service story posted on the Union-Tribune's Web site – SignOnSanDiego.com – disclosed the allegations that Wade had pressured employees to contribute to MZM PAC.

Copley News Service correspondent Jerry Kammer contributed to this report.

[Lebell]

I don't see any reason other than an "in your face" to say "the NEXT republican blah blah blah."

All of you guys really should know better.

Dems and repubs are both equally liable to be involved in scandals.

So kindly knock of the "you did/they did" shit or the thread is closed.

[Elphaba]

Lebell, I believe that the equal culpability of dems and repubs has been well covered in this topic. It is Ustwo, and his typical commentary that deserves your attention. Please tell me that you are not going to close ANOTHER thread due to a Ustwo diversion of the usual kind?

[Hardknock]

From one who just read this thread for the first time, it looks like it to me. I'm starting to see a pattern.

[raveneye]

This is just utterly astonishing, unbelievable, unimaginable . . . . this has got to be the biggest and most ballsy, shameless payoff arrangment in the entire history of this country. Seriously, has there been anything comparable to this? Ever, by any political party? The total amount that he admitted funnelling was $163 million in just a period of two years, to just one defense contractor, who then gets a chunk of that money back to Cunningham in various ways, e.g. by buying his house at a ridiculously inflated price. I'm dumbfounded that Cunningham could have done this at this scale and gotten away with it for so long.

So the questions this raises are: Why didn't other lawmakers on the appropriations committees see that the same defense company was getting contracts over and over again? How did Cunningham ensure that "his" defense contractor get so much money, for so many vaguely worded projects? What oversights are there in the defense appropriations process? WHY WAS IT SO EASY FOR HIM TO DO THIS? The fact that he got caught is not relevant, it wasn't any evidence from the appropriations committee that caught him, it was his house sale that gave him away.

It seems to me that there needs to be a serious "accounting" of the oversight procedures involved in defense appropriations in this country. If Cunningham could do something like this at this unbelievable scale, then I'm sure there are many others doing the same thing at a smaller scale.

It is detestable that somebody at this high a level of government could have conceived and carried out such a thing, but it should be deeply disturbing that it was even possible. It really makes you wonder how deep the corruption really goes in our government. I hope this story and those like it sends record numbers of voters to the polls next November.

The balls this guy had . . . . . .

[shakran]

Originally Posted by Lebell

I don't see any reason other than an "in your face" to say "the NEXT republican blah blah blah."

All of you guys really should know better.

Dems and repubs are both equally liable to be involved in scandals.

So kindly knock of the "you did/they did" shit or the thread is closed.

When someone makes a statement that is patently false (republicans get rid of bad apples) the group should be allowed to call that statement out. I brought up Brown and Cheney because those are two glaringly obvious bad apples that are not being gotten rid of.

Ustwo was trying to paint the picture of the virtuous, noble republican party because they got rid of this particular bad apple. But when they allow crooked warhawks who mired our country into Vietnam 2 to remain in office, getting rid of a guy that took a few bribes doesn't exactly restore them to the light.

That of course doesn't even bother to point out that the guy pled guilty in district court. Not before congress. But in court. It wasn't a partisan purge here where the republicans got him - This is a justice system catch, not a republican catch.

[ratbastid]

What's more, you can't help but notice the pattern here:

DeLay
Frist
Libby
(Alledgedly) Rove
Now Cunningham

NONE of these bad apples have been outed by their fellow Republicans. In fact, the GOP has done nothing but stonewall and delay action and investigation against these individuals.

I'm not saying the Repubs have the market cornered on corruption, not by any means. But it's a patent falsehood to spin this as the Party policing itself. Prominent members of the Party have been caught with their hand DEEP in the cookie jar, and we're headed very soon into campaign season, and however you slice it, it's embarassing. Naturally, conservatives are interested in spinning this as hard and fast as they can spin it.

[Lebell]

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Lebell, I believe that the equal culpability of dems and repubs has been well covered in this topic. It is Ustwo, and his typical commentary that deserves your attention. Please tell me that you are not going to close ANOTHER thread due to a Ustwo diversion of the usual kind?

I agree that many members, yourself included, stepped forward to say that corruption was not beholden to any one party.

My post was directed at ALL those who are choose to make it an "us vs them" thread and those who are might turn it personal.

Ratbastid as much as said so when he said something about the "moral party".

If that continues/happens, then yes, I will close the thread, just like I have closed threads that were nothing but Democrat bashing threads or insult threads.

Let's not kid ourselves. This forum is rife with little digs at the other side. It is polarized beyond believe to the point where the rest of TFP avoids it at all costs.

Frankly, I hate that.

I wish we could discuss the issues without letting our prejudices speak for us, (occasionally ad naseum) but I am beginning to believe that for some of us, that's impossible.

So maybe it's best that those sorts of posts gravitate and live here in "Politics".

That doesn't however mean that I will like them or won't close them.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by shakran

Yeah. That's why Brownie stayed on the payroll for months after bungling Katrina, and that's why Cheney hasn't had his ass kicked out of office for trying to get authorization to torture people. If you like to get rid of your bad apples, you have a long way to go.

Ummm did you get an apple in my bunch of oranges?

You don't LIKE republicans, I don't care, but we are talking about good old fashioned corruption here, making money directly off your office, and yes we get rid of them. Alligations do not equal guilt, and your examples have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by Lebell

I agree that many members, yourself included, stepped forward to say that corruption was not beholden to any one party.

My post was directed at ALL those who are choose to make it an "us vs them" thread and those who are might turn it personal.

Ratbastid as much as said so when he said something about the "moral party".

Now wait a second. The republicans do bill themselves as the moral party. The moral majority. They've been claiming the high moral ground in politics for years. If they want to do that, then they'd better make damn sure they're squeaky clean because it sure is ironic that the party of morals spawns politicians who are as morally bankrupt as Cunningham. I see nothing wrong with pointing out the incongruity. If you want to shut down all "us vs. them" threads, you may as well shut down the politics forum, because by definition over 90% of politics is "us vs. them." If however, you want to foster political debate in here, then you have to expect the one side to jump on the other when they screw up.

I don't know how many threads I've seen in here where the republican side has been gleefully bashing Clinton, and nothing's been done. If dredging up history in order to bash the democrats is OK, then why is it not OK to use current events to point out republican flaws?

As for people avoiding this forum. . . well. . OK. I avoid Trampoline because it doesn't interest me. Are you suggesting that you should rush in there and make drastic changes to the atmosphere in that forum because some users might not be interested in going in there?

Some of us like a good rousing debate. That's why we're here. And the politics forum seems pretty active to me - I see new posts in it just about every time I drop by the TFP.


And Ustwo, my apologies. I see what you're saying now. You define a bad apple ONLY as someone who did exactly what Cunningham did. Anyone else doing anything wrong is still not a bad apple and therefore doesnt' need to be dealt with by those in power. So we can have the 2nd in command demanding that we torture people and that's OK because at least he didn't get any kickbacks from it. And we can have either Scooter, Cheney, or someone else high up in the white house leak the identity of an undercover agent, thereby potentially getting that agent and everyone that agent talked to killed, but at least they didn't make any cash from it, so they're OK too. I get it now.




but BTW you guys still didn't take care of Cunningham - the courts did it for you.

[host]

Originally Posted by Lebell

I agree that many members, yourself included, stepped forward to say that corruption was not beholden to any one party.

My post was directed at ALL those who are choose to make it an "us vs them" thread and those who are might turn it personal.

Ratbastid as much as said so when he said something about the "moral party".

If that continues/happens, then yes, I will close the thread, just like I have closed threads that were nothing but Democrat bashing threads or insult threads.

Let's not kid ourselves. This forum is rife with little digs at the other side. It is polarized beyond believe to the point where the rest of TFP avoids it at all costs.

Frankly, I hate that.

Lebell, in view of the nearly singular party affiliation of the politically elected or appointed people in Washington who have been indicted or are reported to be targets of investigation in the last two years, would you characterize the following article as balanced reporting?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...801697_pf.html
A Growing Wariness About Money in Politics

By Jeffrey H. Birnbaum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 29, 2005; A01

For several years now, corporations and other wealthy interests have made ever-larger campaign contributions, gifts and sponsored trips part of the culture of Capitol Hill. But now, with fresh guilty pleas by a lawmaker and a public relations executive, federal prosecutors -- and perhaps average voters -- may be concluding that the commingling of money and politics has gone too far.

After years in which big-dollar dealings have come to dominate the interaction between lobbyists and lawmakers, <b>both sides</b> are now facing what could be a wave of prosecutions in the courts and an uprising at the ballot box. Extreme examples of the new business-as-usual are no longer tolerated.

Republicans, who control the White House and Congress, are most vulnerable to this wave. But pollsters say that voters think less of both political parties the more prominent the issue of corruption in Washington becomes, and that incumbents generally could feel the heat of citizen outrage if the two latest guilty pleas multiply in coming months.

No fewer than seven lawmakers, including a Democrat, have been indicted, have pleaded guilty or are under investigation for improper conduct such as conspiracy, securities fraud and improper campaign donations. Congress's approval ratings have fallen off the table, in some measure because of headlines about these scandals.

"The indictments and the investigations have strengthened the feeling that people have that in fact there's too much money in Washington and that the money is being used to influence official decisions," said William McInturff, a Republican pollster with Public Opinion Strategies. "Polls show that neither party is held in high regard."

The latest court case came yesterday in San Diego when Rep. Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R-Calif.) wept openly after pleading guilty to tax evasion and conspiracy. His plea bargain came less than a week after public relations executive Michael Scanlon coolly admitted his role in a conspiracy to try to bribe a congressman.

Members of Congress, lawyers and pollsters recognize that both events taken together could signal the start of a cyclical ritual in the nation's capital: the moment when lawmakers and outsiders are widely seen as getting too cozy with each other and face a public backlash -- and legal repercussions -- as a result.

"I've been in town for 30 years, and it seems that every 10 years or so there is an episode of this type," said Jan W. Baran, a Republican ethics lawyer at Wiley Rein & Fielding. "We clearly are at that period now."

"It's gotten to a level that it can't be ignored anymore," agreed Stanley M. Brand, a criminal defense lawyer at Brand & Frulla who used to work for Democrats in Congress.

The worst of the blowback, both legal and electoral, could be blunted if ongoing probes turn up little or nothing. Indeed, some of the investigations are in the early stages and may take months or years to resolve. In addition, experts say that the most prominent cases are aberrational or else there would be even more investigations and indictments than there are.

Yet the activities under scrutiny can also be viewed as logical extensions of actions that once were rare but over time have become commonplace: massive political fundraising, freewheeling private travel given to lawmakers by groups interested in legislation, and the bestowing of other gifts and benefits on government officials by lobbyists.

As the Scanlon case demonstrates, the extent of this favor-buying has gone so far that the Justice Department is no longer deterred from bringing charges even if the gifts fall within Congress's gift-giving limits or are below campaign finance maximums. "It doesn't matter," Brand said. Charges could come, he said, if "anything of value is given to a public official that can be linked to an official act."

Scanlon was a partner of lobbyist Jack Abramoff, and they are under investigation for allegedly improperly extracting $82 million from Indian tribes. Scanlon has agreed to return $19 million and is cooperating with authorities, who have broadened their inquiries to include at least half a dozen lawmakers, some lawmakers' spouses and several aides-turned-lobbyists, lawyers involved in the case have said.

Prosecutors have told one lawmaker, Rep. Robert W. Ney (R-Ohio), and his former chief of staff that they are preparing a possible bribery case against them, The Washington Post has reported. About 40 investigators and prosecutors are also looking into the activities of several lawmakers, including Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.), Rep. John T. Doolittle (R-Calif.) and former House majority leader Tom DeLay (R), who is facing unrelated campaign finance charges in his home state of Texas. Burns, Doolittle and DeLay have denied any wrongdoing.

The Post has also reported that investigators are gathering information about Abramoff's hiring of several congressional spouses, including DeLay's wife, Christine, who worked from 1998 to 2002 with a lobbying firm run by former DeLay staffers, and Doolittle's wife, Julie, who owned a consulting firm that was hired by Abramoff and his former law firm, Greenberg Traurig, to do fundraising for a charity he founded.

Separately, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) has been subpoenaed in connection with probes by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Justice Department into his sale of millions of dollars' worth of stock in HCA Inc., the Nashville-based hospital chain founded by his father and brother. In yet another case, Rep. William J. Jefferson (D-La.) is under investigation by the Justice Department for possible violations connected with a telecommunications deal he was trying to arrange in Nigeria. Both lawmakers say they did nothing wrong.

At least partly because of public reports of these inquiries, voters' feelings about Congress have turned upside down since the start of 2001. In January 2001, 59 percent of Americans approved of the way Congress was doing its job and 34 percent disapproved, according a Washington Post-ABC survey. Earlier this month, the same poll showed that 37 percent approved and 59 percent disapproved.

In addition, for the first time in its 15-year history, the Wall Street Journal-NBC poll this year showed that the public's negative feelings exceeded its positive feelings about both political parties at the same time. "These are cautionary notes that are affecting both parties' political standing," McInturff said.

IMO, it almost seems like a Rove authored, "spin control" piece was inserted into the WaPo today.

[tecoyah]

It is in the nature of every politics board on the internet to have people agrue....and it is expected, if not needed. I would personally ask one thing of every member in here though.....

Please do not push the debate to the borders of the flame, this is what I think Lebell is getting at here. I have noted it as well, but most here are skilled enough to post in such a way that we, as moderators, cant quite call them on it. But it does make the "other" side react (as I believe was the intent), and creates a less than condusive to debate, atmosphere.

Sometimes a single word can make a difference.....such as in the title of this thread:

The next congressional scandal...vs.....the next republican congressional scandal....likely the former would get more readers....and the post itself will tell the story. All I am trying to say is....lets work together to improve the flow of this board...it belongs to us all.

[Elphaba]

I was reading that article earlier and was encouraged by the possibility that voters might do a thorough house cleaning of all politicians with sticky fingers, irrespective of party. I suspect 2006 will be a very interesting year.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by tecoyah

The next congressional scandal...vs.....the next republican congressional scandal....likely the former would get more readers....and the post itself will tell the story. All I am trying to say is....lets work together to improve the flow of this board...it belongs to us all.

Seems to me a good yardstick would be whether the accusation is true or not. This IS a republican congressional scandal. Why is it wrong to say so? As I said earlier, the republicans profess to be the party of morality. Fine, but then when they get themselves into a scandal, I don't see what the problem is with pointing it out. The point of this thread was NOT to say congress had yet another scandal. It was to say the party that for years now has had a wondreful time beating the crap out of everyone else over morality issues isn't so moral itself.

I could understand moderator intervention if the OP had then generalized - i.e "all republicans are crooks." But the OP did no such thing and in fact when wondering about possible other crooks, talked about members of congress, and did NOT specify a party.

As the OP said, it IS a bad time to be a republican because a whole lot of republicans are turning out to be crooks. That's simply the truth. And neither the OP nor any reasonable person would say that this means ALL republicans are crooks (even though the public is likely to associate republicans with crooks if enough of them turn out to be crooked). It's not a flame or a slam if you're just reporting the facts, even if the facts put a particular party in a negative light.

[tecoyah]

Originally Posted by shakran

Seems to me a good yardstick would be whether the accusation is true or not. This IS a republican congressional scandal. Why is it wrong to say so?

I made no mention of "Right..or Wrong", I simply made a request....in an attempt to help the board. It is not a mandate....just a suggestion.

[Marvelous Marv]

Originally Posted by raveneye

This is just utterly astonishing, unbelievable, unimaginable . . . . this has got to be the biggest and most ballsy, shameless payoff arrangment in the entire history of this country. Seriously, has there been anything comparable to this? Ever, by any political party? The total amount that he admitted funnelling was $163 million in just a period of two years, to just one defense contractor, who then gets a chunk of that money back to Cunningham in various ways, e.g. by buying his house at a ridiculously inflated price. I'm dumbfounded that Cunningham could have done this at this scale and gotten away with it for so long.

Although I haven't done the research, in the defense world, I doubt that $163 million is anywhere near a record. For the record, I said months ago in the TFP forum that Cunningham was "guilty as hell." I guess the point I'm trying to make is that nothing shocks me anymore. Maybe that's why I'm for smaller government. The bigger it gets, the more abuses like these occur.

It is detestable that somebody at this high a level of government could have conceived and carried out such a thing, but it should be deeply disturbing that it was even possible. It really makes you wonder how deep the corruption really goes in our government. I hope this story and those like it sends record numbers of voters to the polls next November
The balls this guy had . . . . . .

Agreed, but he had a great deal more in the balls department than the brains department. Income of 1.2 million, and he only claims $120k on his tax return?

[Marvelous Marv]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

What's more, you can't help but notice the pattern here:

DeLay
Frist
Libby
(Alledgedly) Rove
Now Cunningham

How many have had guilt established, other than Cunningham? Guilty in your mind doesn't count.

NONE of these bad apples have been outed by their fellow Republicans. In fact, the GOP has done nothing but stonewall and delay action and investigation against these individuals.

The GOP kicked Nixon out. Can you name a Democrat who received the same treatment by his or her party?

I'm not saying the Repubs have the market cornered on corruption, not by any means. But it's a patent falsehood to spin this as the Party policing itself. Prominent members of the Party have been caught with their hand DEEP in the cookie jar, and we're headed very soon into campaign season, and however you slice it, it's embarassing. Naturally, conservatives are interested in spinning this as hard and fast as they can spin it.

Okay, I challenge that last statement. Who's spinning it?

[Marvelous Marv]

Originally Posted by shakran

Now wait a second. The republicans do bill themselves as the moral party. The moral majority.

You've got it backwards. The so-called "Moral Majority" identifies themselves as Republicans. There's a big difference, particularly since so many Republicans don't think highly of the "Moral Majority."

but BTW you guys still didn't take care of Cunningham - the courts did it for you.

Care to provide the case number of that conviction? I'm not happy with what he did, but the only redeeming factor in this mess is he didn't drag it through the courts for years. Or wonder about the true meaning of "is."

[shakran]

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

The GOP kicked Nixon out. Can you name a Democrat who received the same treatment by his or her party?

Can you name a democrat who was caught breaking into republican headquarters to steal information, and then spent years covering it up?

Care to provide the case number of that conviction? I'm not happy with what he did, but the only redeeming factor in this mess is he didn't drag it through the courts for years. Or wonder about the true meaning of "is."

You didn't notice that he pled guilty?

And I see you're dredging up Clinton again. The guy, btw, who was NOT convicted of anything. Why would you be doing that if not to attempt to distract from the real topic in here? Or are you just slinging mud?

[cyrnel]

This is going somewhere quickly.

[Elphaba]

Ya think?

[pan6467]

What about Noe, Taft, the whole damned Ohio GOP? And those tentacles go all the way to the White House.

I can't wait for Noe to cop a plea and talk about the slush funds. He didn't turn himself in, he ran to Florida. The Ohio GOP worked hard to cover that up, until they could no longer hide the fact $50 MILLION was missing and had been given to Noe to invest in baseball cards and rare coins.

Co-conspirators’ largesse extended to many
By Josephine Hearn

In the wake of former Rep. Randy “Duke” Cunningham’s (R-Calif.) stunning resignation and tearful admission that he had accepted some $2.4 million in bribes Monday, many of his former colleagues are mulling what to do with tens of thousands of dollars they received in campaign contributions from Cunningham’s co-conspirators.

Cunningham, a former Navy pilot and eight-term lawmaker from the San Diego area, announced his resignation shortly after pleading guilty to conspiracy charges and tax evasion stemming from millions of dollars in bribes he accepted from defense contractors over five years.

In a plea agreement with prosecutors, Cunningham named four people who had conspired with him to commit the crimes. Although the plea agreement does not refer to the co-conspirators by name, they are widely believed to be Mitchell Wade, the former president of defense intelligence firm MZM Inc., Brent Wilkes, president of defense contractor ADCS Inc., Tom Kontogiannis, a New York real-estate developer, and an unnamed family member of Kontogiannis.

Wade and Wilkes gave heavily to congressional Republicans in recent years, and now lawmakers must decide whether to keep the campaign largesse.

Wade, Wilkes, Kontogiannis and others remain under investigation, according to a statement made by the lead federal prosecutor in the case, U.S. Attorney Carol Lam.

Congressional ethics experts predict that one or more of the co-conspirators would be charged, especially because Cunningham has agreed to continue to cooperate with the investigation.

“Given that they were both described as co-conspirators in the plea agreement and that the agreement calls for former Rep. Cunningham to cooperate in the investigation, it’s very likely that both Mitchell Wade and Brent Wilkes will be indicted,” said Brett Kappel, an ethics lawyer at Vorys, Sater, Seymour and Pease LLP.

Sen. Jim Talent (R-Mo.) has returned money from lobbyist Jack Abramoff, the center of another congressional ethics scandal, while Republican Reps. Jeb Bradley (N.H.), Kenny Hulshof (Mo.), Heather Wilson (N.M.) and Steve LaTourette (Ohio) gave back contributions from DeLay after he was indicted in September.

Republican Reps. Tom DeLay (Texas), John Doolittle (Calif.) and Jerry Lewis (Calif.) all received at least $30,000 in donations — either through their campaign committee or their leadership PACs — from Wade, Wilkes, their family members and their companies’ PACs over the past four years. These totals do not include individual contributions from employees of these firms. Early this year, Lewis became the chairman of the powerful House Appropriations Committee. Before that, he headed the defense appropriations subcommittee. Because of these high-profile roles, Lewis often receives more donations than most House members. Doolittle also sits on the Appropriations Committee.

But Cunningham, who was simply a member of the defense appropriations subcommittee, received the most — at least $66,000 during the same period.

Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.), chairman of the Armed Services Committee, received just over $28,000, as did Rep. Virgil Goode (R-Va.). Rep. Jerry Weller (R-Ill.) was the recipient of $20,000.

Wilkes is a prominent Bush fundraiser, earning a designation as a “Bush pioneer” in 2004 for raising more than $100,000. If Wilkes is indicted, he will be the third Bush pioneer, after Abramoff and Ohio fundraiser Tom Noe, to be indicted this year.

Wade resigned from MZM earlier this year. The company was sold to a private equity firm in August.

In light of the Cunningham’s recent revelations, congressional watchdogs suggested that lawmakers would be wise to get rid of the donations, either by refunding them or donating them to charity.

“It would be very, very appropriate, especially in a scandal that reeks like Cunningham’s, that anyone who was touched in any way give the money to charity,” said Craig Holman of the watchdog group Public Citizen. “There is no mandate that officeholders give back money even if the donor is indicted … but they should do it if they want to stand on strong ethical footing with the Cunningham scandal, where there is ample appearance of corruption.”

None of the lawmakers’ offices contacted by The Hill were prepared to give away the contributions yet.

“Mr. Lewis hasn’t had time to consider something like giving back the donations,” said Lewis spokesman Jim Specht. “As chairman of the subcommittee and later the full committee, he receives donations from at least dozens of donors.”

Specht went on to say Lewis had no memory of having met Wade.

“He has known Mr. Wilkes, though it has been some time since [Wilkes has] talked to him. He’s never talked to him about any defense project,” Specht said.

Jim Ellis, head of DeLay’s leadership PAC, Americans for a Republican Majority (ARMPAC), which received the DeLay donations, said it was too early to make a determination on what to do with the funds.

“We’ll see how it transpires and deal it with then,” he said. “It’s pure speculation at this point. It’s not something we’ve discussed.”

Ellis and two other ARMPAC officials were indicted on unrelated money-laundering charges earlier this year.

Chris Kennedy, a spokesman for Weller, said the donations likely stemmed from Weller’s support of the research-and-development tax credit, a tax benefit popular among a wide swath of technologically inclined manufacturing companies.

“While the situation with Congressman Cunningham is very dismaying, [Weller] acted with propriety in every phase of this,” Kennedy said. “The congressman never had any reason to suspect any impropriety.”

The issue of giving back the money “has not been discussed,” he added.

A spokesman for Hunter said the lawmaker was “tending to personal business with family” and unreachable. The House is in recess until next week.

Phone calls to Doolittle, Bonilla and Goode were not returned before press time.

The San Diego Union-Tribune reported that in 1998 Hunter joined Cunningham in pressing the Pentagon to put $9.77 million into a program benefiting Wilkes’ ADCS. Hunter has denied any wrongdoing in the matter.

Goode helped Wade’s MZM secure funding this year for the Foreign Supplier Assessment Center, a program based in Martinville, Va, which is located in Goode’s district, according to published reports. MZM held a fundraiser for Goode in March.



Congressional Campaign Contributions from
“Co-Conspirators”, 2001 – 2005*

NAME AMOUNT
Rep. Randy Cunningham (R-Calif.) $66,000
Rep. Jerry Lewis (R-Calif.) $32,000
Rep. John Doolittle (R-Calif.) $30,000
Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) $30,000
Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Calif.) $28,500
Rep. Virgil Goode (R-Va.) $28,250
Rep. Jerry Weller (R-Ill.) $20,000
Rep. Henry Bonilla (R-Texas) $12,500
Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) $11,250
Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho) $10,000

* Contributions to congressional candidates and their leadership PACs from Mitchell Wade, Brent Wilkes, Tom Kontogiannis and their family members and PACs associated with MZM Inc. and ADCS Inc.

LINK: http://www.thehill.com/thehill/expor...5/fallout.html


And you have to love this instead of the politicians giving the money back to thepeople and making sure it gets into the WOrkers Comp pool where it came from.......... They are rebating it to charity. So fuck the taxpayers in Ohio, we'll rebate the money to charities where I have a feeling they'll get tax write offs....... very moral.. + .. what the majority of people would do I guess.. = .. Moral Majority .. I get it now.

And you have to love Blackwell who kept the illegally gotten funds political by giving it to an anti-abortion group.

At least Schwarzenegger just sent the money back to Noe.

Ah yes the GOP they steal from the people's money and when caught still use it for themselves.........

Just Say Noe



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Poor Tom Noe. At first, Republican candidates were thrilled with his largess, gladly channeling his campaign contributions into election activities. Then came the campaign finance indictment and allegations that he stole millions from the Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation.

Now the politicians are hurrying to get Noe's money out of their accounts -- and they're not even returning it to Noe.

Sen. Mike DeWine split $8,000 in Noe money between Mercy Children's Hospital and Toledo Children's Hospital. Three state senators sent $8,400 to a nonprofit worker safety group. Another shipped $900 to a pair of Summit County nonprofit organizations.

The GOP caucus is holding $10,600 in escrow. Gov. Bob Taft (R), fined by a judge in August for failing to report 52 gifts from Noe and others, put $21,400 in escrow and is searching inaugural committee records for contributions from Noe and his wife, Bernadette.

Auditor Betty Montgomery donated $8,100 to the state workers compensation office, while Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell -- a social conservative running for governor against Montgomery and Attorney General Jim Petro -- contributed $3,000 in Noe funds to an antiabortion group.

A total of $6,000 the Noes contributed to President Bush's campaigns has been delivered to the American Heart Association's "Go Red for Women" campaign, described by Republican National Committee spokesman Aaron McLear as one of Laura Bush's favorite charities.

"That money is the basis of the investigation," McLear said. Referring to the criminal case, he said, "We're going to allow that process to reach a conclusion before doing anything else."

The Toledo rare-coin dealer's reach touched the campaign of California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (R), the only person known to have chosen the traditional route of returning Noe's cash to Noe himself.

"If I recall, there were two checks for about $5,000 each," said Marty Wilson, executive director of Schwarzenegger's political organization, the California Recovery Team. "The fact is, we're not in Ohio. We figured the most expeditious route to take was to refund it directly to Mr. Noe."

LINK: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...v=rss_politics

So there's plenty of GOP scandals right now........ and they all seem to be interrelated somehow. All seem to go directly to the White House..... at least the 3 Wilkes, Noe and Abramoff seem to.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

How many have had guilt established, other than Cunningham? Guilty in your mind doesn't count.

Fair enough. DeLay and Libby have been indicted, not convicted. Rove and Frist are under a fairly dark cloud of investigation, but there's no legal action against them at present. Cunningham is the only confessed or convicted felon in the lot.

What I'm pointing to is more of a PR problem than a concern about who will actually end up behind bars. In the eyes of the majority of Americans, according to the polls, all five of those gentlemen are dirty as coal miners, and the perception is that there are more rats in the woodpile. Whether it's true or not, that perception is what the Repubs now have to deal with.

The GOP kicked Nixon out. Can you name a Democrat who received the same treatment by his or her party?

The grounds for Nixon's impeachment were so inassailiable and egregious that the GOP had no choice but to fall in line with them. Those congresspeople get no credit from me for voting the only politically feasible vote. Besides, I said THESE individuals. You've got to reach back 30-plus years to find a decent counter-example? The GOP of the 70s was NOT the GOP of today.

Okay, I challenge that last statement. Who's spinning it?

I was responding largely to Ustwo's assertion that this was a case of the Republican Party getting rid of a rotten apple. Look, DeLay has been the rottenest damn apple American politics has seen since Nixon, and everybody's known it, and nobody did anything about it for decades. So I flat don't buy the spin that all these instances of malfeasant Republicans is a result of the GOP policing itself.

I'm also not asserting that the Dems police themselves either, or that every single Democrat is squeaky-clean. Nobody has said that, either, I'm just heading off a likely target of moderator wrath.

[Lebell]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I'm also not asserting that the Dems police themselves either, or that every single Democrat is squeaky-clean. Nobody has said that, either, I'm just heading off a likely target of moderator wrath.

..............

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I was responding largely to Ustwo's assertion that this was a case of the Republican Party getting rid of a rotten apple. Look, DeLay has been the rottenest damn apple American politics has seen since Nixon, and everybody's known it, and nobody did anything about it for decades. So I flat don't buy the spin that all these instances of malfeasant Republicans is a result of the GOP policing itself.

I'm also not asserting that the Dems police themselves either, or that every single Democrat is squeaky-clean. Nobody has said that, either, I'm just heading off a likely target of moderator wrath.

You haven't really read anything non-partisan on the Delay thing have you if you think he is the 'worst since Nixon'.

We know you don't like republicans Ratbasid, no one is perfect, but come on.

[ratbastid]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You haven't really read anything non-partisan on the Delay thing have you if you think he is the 'worst since Nixon'.

Newsweek's four-page cover article on him a few months ago was as non-partisan as it's going to get, and it pretty devestatingly laid out his powerbrokering machinations stretching back over the decades of his career, including a very clear account of the crimes he currently stands accused of.

I don't have a blanket hatred of Republicans, by the way, though I confess, you might not know that by my posts here. I'm registered Independant. To be perfectly honest, if the Repubs nominate McCain in 2008, I'll likely have a very hard time deciding how to cast my vote. Give me a Democrat who's a lying warmongering facist, and I'll oppose him just as strongly as I oppose the current administration. I know what I say here probably sounds pretty partisan (and I confess, the title of this thread was... not cool-headed of me), but it's the individual and their policy I object to, not their party affiliation.

[Cimarron29414]

Guys, guys, guys - you are over complicating this entire issue. You are reading far longer than you need to read in order to determine morality.

You don't look at the letter BEHIND the name to determine if someone is immoral/corrupt. You simply look at the title in FRONT of the name.
'Rep.' or 'Sen.' are dead ringers for corruption. Bar NONE! Our system is set up such that only the corrupt will reach this level of government. I try not to associate the actions of politicians with their party - otherwise no party would suffice.

[dksuddeth]

when media outlets talk about politicians, or wannabe politicians, they include the campaign donation amounts raised (warchests). it takes money to get elected because we the people allow it to be that way. since money is the root of all evil, is it any wonder that we have this corruption in our elected branches?