DO YOU LIKE DISCUSSING POLITICS?!?
 

Well guess what. If you guys don't shape up, you're not going to be able to do so any more.

THE POLITICS BOARD IS NOT THE PLACE FOR YOU TO POST SHORT, ANGSTY QUIPS ABOUT YOUR STUPID, REDUNDANT POINTS THAT HAVE BECOME CLICHES AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF REPETITION!

ALSO, THE POLITICS BOARD IS NOT *YOUR* BOARD - IT IS *MY* BOARD. THAT MEANS YOU DO NOT GET TO BE OFFENDED BY SOMEONE ELSE'S WELL-SPOKEN POLITICAL VIEWS AND RESPOND WITH NOTHING BUT VITRIOL AND A SMUG, IMMATURE DISGUISED INSULT.

Listen up, people. The TFP has come this far on a few principles... respect your fellow member's opinions and contribute to a discussion with an intelligent response. It can do nothing but good if you do this. If you are NOT willing to do this - if you are NOT willing to come to the politics board with an OPEN MIND - if you are NOT willing to DISCUSS politics rather than PREACH them - GET THE FUCK OUT!

Also, I'm sick and tired of you so-called "mature adults" (I think that is what you claimed to be when you submitted your account information to become a member) finding my moderators to be biased and incapable of doing their job. Your complete bullshit over the last few months is making them not want to even touch this board. As a result, you're just shitting in your own seat. My moderators do a damn fine job. I watch what they do and I'm impressed with their ability to put aside their own political views to view situations with a clear mind. They are fucking wonderful people. If you can't appreciate these people taking time out of their day to put up with your completely juvenile bickering, once again, GET THE FUCK OUT.

Figure it out, smart guys.

Listen jackass. This is one of the reasons why you'll never get a dime out of me to help you run this site. You say it's your site now, but when you need money to help run it becaue you're damn near broke you sure as hell come to us begging for a butt load of cash. I want to express my opinions and if you ever expect to get any money out of me, you and your right-wing censors that you happen to call "moderators" need to back the fuck off and let people discuss the issues. Just becasue you hate politics and can't stand any of the parties doesn't mean that you and the "mod police" need to start silencing people. Start with that and then I'll think about helping you with $$$.

Listen Jackass, you got the rights to express your opinion. Just make sure your opinion doesn't infringe on others. Just make sure your opinion is expressive and thoughtful. Otherwise, we'll have a board full of threads and posts about how democrats, republician, right party, left party, up party, down party is better, stupider or cooler than that party and we'll end up with bunch of jackasses like you posting nothing but garbages.

You got the right to donate or not but you sure hell don't have the right to come into somebody's house and tell him how you don't like it the way he arranges his furnitures.

Wow, tell us how you really feel...

And that was you're first post, looks to me somebody doesn't understand the tilted way. This place as Halx says is about sharing ideas, making suggestions for a better system and for all to learn from one another. Have being your first post i'm not so sure you really qualify to say that the mods are 'mod police' and right wing sensors. They happen to be nice people and if you read their post you would learn this.

In fact i think your post is a prime example of how tilted politics should not look.

I myself will continue to look the discuss rather than preach, although i still think there is a fine line. But as always i will do it with some degree of respect for all the other memebers.

Swell. I love the politics forum and the first reply to Hal appears to be from someone intent on getting it shut down.

My thoughts exactly.

I rather enjoy this forum, and think that 90% of the time, conversation is civil and within limits.
Persoanl attacks are sadly part of real life politics, and it suprises me not to see them pop up here occasionally.
I value the prescence of this forum on the TFP, and feel I've learned alot about the views of others that has nothing to do with party lines. Becuase, well, no one around here really falls into any catagory easily.

Wow, that's a great way to get respect around here.

I guess that's why you were too chickenshit to post under your own name and had to make a throwaway? Needed your regular username to stay cloaked in "respect"?

This was not his first post. This was an existing user registering under a new name for "anonymity". Which, of course, is against the forum rules. Although, the mods can probably trace him back and may very well ban his current account as well.

Back on-topic, I'd be very interested to see if the Politics board can exist with the rules Halx is proposing. If it does survive, I might even participate; the current ultra-partisianship makes it nearly impossible for someone like me to enter it.

Obviously I struck a nerve. Get ready to make another clone to bitch about me some more 'cause I'm about to ask for more donations.

Creating an anonymous email address: 3 minutes.
Creating a TFP username: 3 minutes.
Writing a long post bitching about me and the moderators: 15 minutes.
Moderator bans you: 5 seconds.

It never ceases to amaze me how important people think their opinions are.

Upon reading this, I am ready to listen as the author is clearly ready to tell me something full of respect. :crazy:
I know I wouldn't want this persons money, and I get the feeling Halx agrees.
Hahahahaha. Right wing. That's rich. Politics (if you ever get back on), the title of Moderator refers to their moderating quality of the site, not their moderate stance in politics.
We have been invited to be in Halx's community. I instead of ungrateful spite, I believe Halx deserves our thanks and respect.
Ahahahahaha!!! Owned!

With all due respect (as i don't want to be bitch slapped out of this place) this forum is based on peoples opinions, without our opinions we may as well give up. This place wouldn't be the interesting place that it is without them. As such i declear all peoples opinions as important, as long as they are written with the buzz word of this thread, RESPECT.

I do agree however slightly sad that someone would feel the need to cloke themselves, but whatever floats your boat.

I find it funny that the purpose of this place is to NOT need to to "cloak" your personality but to actually show it, and show it respectfully.

alters have never impressed me, on anytime on anyboard...this is the one place its not needed because most people feel free to be themselves and disagree with others all day long, I have far more respect for a person that blasts me as THEMSELVES.

I enjoy other peoples opinions, just not always how they are presented....specially in the politics forum....thats a scary scary place sometimes.

Time to focus on this for a bit guys and gals......Things are going to change in here....PERIOD.

Is there some way to get that guy's IP and just complete the ban? That post was was out there, even for this forum, heh. I mean, damn.

While i agree there is a shitload of squabbling on this politics section, thats what politics is. Some folks are set in their ways, and dont bend to the wind, some sway back and forth whichever way the wind blows. The arguements are part of politics. However, personal attacks have grown quite a bit lately, and i have noticed a lot of "time outs" getting slapped on folks. I think as everyone is getting to know eachothers viewpoints more and more clearly, the persuasion part of the discussion starts to lessen as people already know they wont be able to change someone's mind on a certain subject. What we need is a more broad range of discussion i think, and veer a bit away fromt he usual R.vs.D. boxing match.

I like to hear what others have to say/think about pretty much every topic discussed in politics section. It's really opened my mind to the way people actually think, and i think this area is a valuable part of this board. While it may make people more calm with it's absence, it would feel, to me atleast, that a bit of the flavor of the board would be diminished.

I'm not quite sure how im viewed in this section. Probably as some kind of conspiracy loving bush hating nut job. But i still enjoy it, and find it fun, educational, and entertaining. :thumbsup:

It's kind of ironic: left-wing people accuse us of being conservative, right-wing people consider us liberals. Maybe that's a sign that we're somewhere in the middle. Nobody who throws out those accusations ever seems to consider the whole picture; they're usually so blinded by ideology that all they can do is spout rhetoric and accuse everyone who disagrees of being either a Nazi or a Communist.

Guess what, tough guy... You just did help him. What a great reminder of why TFP is worthwhile - Halx, tecoyah, Cyn, Mal, Lebell, Mr. SD, et. al - thank you for the work, time, and dog-catching you do to keep this place sharp and smart.
/off to get wallet...

Hehe I come back for the first time in 6 months to drama.

Over all the politics board seemed pretty dead so obviously I missed some things.

I just want to clarify...we don't think that people's opinions have no worth. You are right - it is the sharing of opinions that make this place what it is. What Hal is amazed by, along with me and others, is how much MORE important some people think their opinions are than what they should. It is the frequent arrogance that accompanies the expression of opinion, not the opinion itself.

Welcome back. :thumbsup: You missed an election and what I consider to be partisanship aftershocks. We all know that elections can serve to severly polarize people, and this time it is taking longer to wear off.

Damn centrists! (jk)

I sometimes fantasize that the most bent, critical, angry posts come from people grinning behind their keyboards, just toying with others. It's a nice fantasy, wherein everyone's happy and a few pranksters post wildly contrasting opinions and attitudes just to see what sticks. No harm done because the angry responses are just more toying. Then someone comes along and tells me Santa's dead. Fuck me.

I've always felt large flames were best countered with a vacuum. Swift, complete, perhaps accompanied by a "pardon our dust" notice. If it isn't up for discussion then discussions only prolong the agony.

This damned centrist loves the politics forum. I swear I will never call anyone a Big Dick or Mr. Dick again, no matter how much I am baited.

Hal, does groveling and silent weeping help in giving Politics a second chance?

4 if you don't count process/refresh time. I'm glad to see there are many in here with such an optimistic point of view of the nature of our politics forum. The fact is, it's headed downhill quite a bit.

We don't just exist to be a board, not just to be a community, but to be the community that others could never be, and to be the board that everyone else dreams of being. That, dear members, is the nature of the whole of the TFP.

What we have here is a portion of our beloved community enagaged in a battle of wits and quips where ideas are supposed to inspire, cause insight, and promote thinking, just like everywhere else. Somehow, though, this area is wrought with grief, anger, and childish name-calling.

When this much upset goes on in the Tilted Politics section, it trickles down in malicious little rivulets to the other forums, where the name-calling and immaturity blow up more quickly and spread out further into the general population.

We cannot have the muddy waters of the Politics forum infesting the rest of the board. What we're talking about here is the clean-up needed to restore the level of decorum, respect, and maturity expected and required of all members of the TFP.

If we have to, we will give time-outs as though you were children, in the form of temporary bans. If you act like a child, we will treat you like one. Stay a child, and you'll be sent away from the grown-ups table permanently.

My regular schedule just got freed up a lot, so I'm going to be back in business in here. Happy posting! :thumbsup:

Not nearly as much as civilized discourse.

Same here. Remember everyone, we are watching, and Politics will be cleaned up one way or another.

Maybe not in the middle, but able to push aside your personal feelings to do the job you are appointed to do.

i assume that there is a backstory to all this that somehow i know nothing about, yes?
i have noticed recurrent slides into simple namecalling, etc.--but it seems that during the 10 days or so that i was knocked out of commission with computer ennuis that something else had transpired. no matter really (i dont really care what the backstory is--i am just voicing my confusion over this turn of events).

what i am posting is a defense of the politics board.

1.
for what it's worth, i havent seen particular political questions arising from the actions of any mod as mod--sometimes things get strange when a mod switches from being a participant in a particular thread to acting as moderator in the same thread---the solution to this image-switch seems to me unnecessary (that another person operate as mod once a mod decides to participate)...goofy even...mostly because (for example) lebell is a consistently interesting fellow to talk/argue with--even though we rarely agree---and it would be a shame to hamstring his ability to participate in the forum because he is a moderator. same would apply, in differing ways, to most of the other folk with whom i have interacted in this space.

2.

it would be a shame indeed were the implied threat to shut down the politics board were to transpire. whether everyone likes the tone or not at every point, it often (often enough to keep me coming back to it--and there is no reason that i have to keep coming back--like everyone i have plenty of other things i can and probably should be doing in the morning) has fairly serious discussions---within the limitations imposed by the nature of messageboards--you get close to how someone might really think, but there is nonetheless always compression and the strange distancing that writing across little white squares engenders. and within the limits imposed on debate more generally by the sorry cultural environment within which we operate these days.

politics seems to me in the main more consistent than, say, the philosophy forum in this regard--maybe because folk do not understand the category politics to be as--o i dont know--formal or "serious" as philosophy. in my opinion, this is a real shame--most of what i think politics is would fit better under philosophy--but the division of intellectual labor within which we work is different than that. so there we are.

it seems to me that debate is fundamental to any democratic process. if the debate here is often degraded, it is more often than not an indication of the distance that seperates debate as a superficial index of or substitute for democracy from what the latter would be like were there anything real at stake. in which case, the problem is not this board, but the non-democracy that enframes debate more generally. the forum would be a symptom, in this case.

if you want to create a community that operates within a particular context but is somehow seperate from it, then fine--but dont be surprised if features of the context leak into the community--it would be naieve to imagine that things could go otherwise. well they could--and the community would soon die--as hundreds of previous communities have that thought they could seperate themselves entirely from their environments.

in the end, i am not sure what is going on here: whether the series of particular moves that engendered hal's opening statement are in themselves a result of some accumulation of pm-level sniping/exchanges of self-justifications that i (mercifully i think) am not privy to, or if the problem is the politics board in and of itself. either way, it would be a shame if this place were to be shut down in the interest of some conception of harmony that is in all probability self-defeating for the continued functioning of the community itself. say you did shut it down--the community would be open to the world around it across the level of what pop songs do you like, what tv shows or film have you seen, whats up with my computer, my leisure life, what is strange in the news. if this was the extent of it, then you might well have a harmonious community--my theory is that it would be harmonious like the shakers were---fewer and fewer people across time. if what this is really about is an attempt to remind/enforce a requirement of civility, then the opening is a pretty strange way to go about it----but whatever----people get angry--i get angry from time to time too.

I must agree with you, roach.

nice post.

Wow... now that's a first!


I have been following this thread and would just say that I agree with roach as well.

While there are from time to time flares and there are certain members that can get a little out of hand, for the most part, the level of discourse here is *much* higher than anywhere else.

Agreed. Also agree with roachboy...though of course there is nothing wrong with discussing pop sings, movies, cars and other light-hearted stuff. I've seen it much worse elsewhere to be honest. I don't see tfp as being primarily a politics board anyway. I see it as a titty board/exhibitionist board first, with a bunch of other forums grafted onto it. I remember the days when the tfp was ONLY a titty board. I've been to many other boards where the politic forums are openly hostile, and some places where there is a 'flame forum' dedicated soley to vent...anything goes. Maybe another forum to add on?

Eh, flame forums are pretty much a big mistake IMHO. The same scenario always seems to develop.

Everyone's civilized everywhere else, but in the flame forum, user A calls user B an ignorant fucktard, then user B says he's gonna fire bomb user A's house or some similar bullshit, and before you know it there's a shitload of hatred between members, and then that spills over into the other forums and wrecks the discourse and community of the entire board.

Not worth it IMO.

If you are satisfied with the level of discourse, then you're either not looking at it closely enough, or you're not quite as put off as I am when people take the easy way out of a discussion by adding a one-liner that amounts to a radio engineer pressing a button for a sound effect.

You guys are also responsible for holding your fellow members to a higher standard of behavior.

I wish my new job didn't block this forum. I love the politics board here, and everyone in it, for the most part. :D

BTW, find the cloaked bitcher and ban him (he/she obviously hates it here anyway) and I'll double the board contribution I'll be submit tomorrow. ;)

I am pretty certain the "cloaked" one was identified. It's all about "respect" doncha know?

.....forgive me father, for i have sinned. yah though i walk through the shadow of darkness, blessed is he who has sinned against me. and blessed be is thy name.

It's too bad that the thread was kicked off by the now banned flamer. Because it disguised/distracted from the real point. I'd like to see this thread explore the things that Halx is talking about.

While I agree with Roachboy to a point - this is more polite than any politics forum, ever - and friction creates some positive outcomes - there is surely behavior that makes me nuts.

If we are driving down the road, and Halx's goal is to keep us on road, the moderators provide course correction at the edges. My guess is that course correction is VERY hard and has to be applied with great vim. Because this is TFP, it shouldn't be so hard for the moderators. WE make it too hard, and that, perhaps, has consequences on the rest of the board.

Perhaps the goal is to police ourselves better, so that the mods can apply the light touch they apply elsewhere?


For myself, the thing that makes me nutty is people responding to a particular detail in someone's post that they CAN make a rebuttal to, and not responding to the actual point of that post. God forbid we actually say: great point - I can't respond to that because you are right.

I'm sure there are lots of other things, and I'm guessing I have guilt too :D But just to throw something out there...



thx for having us in your house, Halx

By george, I think he's got it! :)

I agree with you Hal. although it is tough to not get carried away when the topic is politics.
thx for giving us the chance to express each other while protecting us from those "jackasses"

My thoughts exactly. I also dropped off the scene, more or less, for about six months.

Mr Mephisto

Political issues often involve the most fundamental values of human society, and these values often are life and death issues. Those of us who understand intimately that these are life and death issues are not likely to turn these debates into pissing matches. They are too important for that.

I feel strongly about many things discussed here; I don't believe that it's generally a good idea to hide one's emotions on issues as important as these. As long as we respect each other, I see no reason not to let our feelings out.

I come from a politically active family in which some members have suffered tremendously as a result. A cousin of mine (a reporter in Paris) was murdered by the Yugoslav Secret Police back before the breakup while getting out of his car in the newspaper parking lot. He was shot 5 times in the head; nobody was caught. Previous to that he spent 5 years in prisons being tortured horifically, to prevent him from speaking out in the future. Many other friends and relatives have been tortured in prisons. My sister has been haunted by death threats for many years and has been shot at at close range; she is lucky to be alive today. She seems safe now, but there are times when the phone rings and a part of me is thinking, "is this it"?

For me, politics means doing your damndest to get it right. That's because lives are at stake. I know firsthand what happens to survivors when people don't get it right. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I have no intentions of giving up.

It's easy to sit here in front of a computer in comfort and forget these kinds of things. Maybe it's a good idea to keep in mind that there are more important things in life than how far you can piss on an anonymous discussion board ? And I'd also like to thank Halx and the moderators for their patience here.

although the poster using the handle "Politics" was rightfully banned, i did think he had a valid point. it's hard to swallow Halx enforcing the rules from a "it's MY board" sort of view when it's clear that donations from a wide-range of users keep this place afloat. you can't have it both ways... either you have the complete authority to do what you like because it belongs to you, or you cede that in some ways when you are the steward of other's resources.

either way, the mods get my thumbs up as far as being responsive to my queries and moderating justly.

however, i'm w/Halx on the broader issue... the board has become silly. my interest has wained dramatically as of late. every post seems to require pages of disclaimers to fend off the petty remarks. it has devolved into a juvenile sort of word combat rather than serious discussion.

even so, thanks to halx and the mods for the time they put in.

To be quite honest, I love discussing politics and am very passionate and work very hard to temper myself. I do admit I get carried away and have become irrational. But I also am tired of being considered left on every post and having to argue my beliefs and not discuss the topic. I also deem it unnessecary to have an opinion on every thread.

As for the mods, I think all of them are very tolerant and I have yet to see a locked thread or banning that wasn't deserved or forewarned. I know I have been warned a few times and they never once stated it was because of my opinion but rather because of my ACTIONS. And I thoroughly respect them all, because the ones who have posted to me have never once attacked me personally or treated me in any way other than very respectfully.

Anyway, I also believe that when you have national talking heads that believe good radio and television is to bring every issue to left or right and that "if you don't see it their way then you are a fascist or a pinko" there is no in between and it has caused problems in our government in many ways, finger pointing, hatreds, accusations and so on. Even when agreement between parties is reached these talking heads spend hours on spewing hate and how you don't compromise. But politics is compromising esp here in the USA. It's all about compromising, that's the only way to protect freedom of any kind.

This anger carries down to all who follow politics and there are many who believe you have to attack the political view and person in order to "win". That is what society has come to. And when people see the media and persons they "respect" resort to attacks they feel that must be the way to be heard.

Overall though, the politics discussed here is far more civil and understanding than in other forums.

I have no idea what my point was....... carry on mods and Hal thank you for creating a great site.

I really have absolutely no idea if "your" moderators are biased or incapable of doing their job. I rarely see "your" moderators doing much of anything. But I am quite certain (and your blistering attempts at denial and vehement criticism of "your" members does not change my perception) that your moderators are fallable. As much as you might like to believe in the chaste honesty of "your" moderators, you need to fucking open your eyes - or at the least, don't chime in with such bullshit about how well you watch them and how brilliant they are. You have atleast one moderator who has control issues. Maybe you have other moderators who have other issues - but I haven't been directly affected by them so I can't possibly know. When a moderator finds it appropriate to make a statement such as "I discount your reading of my post" and then not accept the only proper response to such drivel: "I discount your denial of my reading of your post", you have a moderator who needs to chill the fuck out and wake up to the reality that he is not god's gift to political discourse. When you have a moderator who consistently responds to members with the word "Nonsense" you have a moderator who is clearly incapable of respect - yet one who requires legions of it in return. He is not the beginning and end of discussion simply because he wants to be the beginning and end of discussion. And you have this moderator, Halx. He is yours.

You'd like to blame the membership - but that's just your excuse for your failings and "your" moderators failings. When "your" moderators can't set examples, and when YOUR response to the failings of political discourse is this completely immature, overtly hostile thread opener - it is clear where the fault lies. You alienate your membership. "Your" moderators goad your membership.

This post is what you ask for when you start a thread in this way. You exemplify everything you claim to dislike. Maybe if you hadn't contradicted yourself so effectively in a single post, a response along the lines of roachboy's would have been more in order - the primary aspect of his post being the idea that moderators taking such an active role in the discussions should not be moderating the discussions. Seems so obvious and mature to consider it - why does it take a lowly member to mention it? Shouldn't the almighty brilliance of the owner or his moderators have been capable of recognizing it's importance? One would expect. But hey, even that won't stop "your" moderators from retribution. Or maybe because they're "your" moderators, I'm supposed to believe they are incapable of that. Yeah. Right.

I wish I could have appreciated your forums. Unfortunately, you and "your" moderators are incapable of leading.

Fortunately, membership in Halx's Holy Forums is not the pinnacle of achievement in life.

Good luck to you, Halx. You need it.

Dopamine, you only have one post. and you just joined in june 2005 . . . how do you know so much about TFP and our mods then, you've learned all of this in a couple days???? :hmm:


Just let it go man. You said your peice, now stop haressing people on this site.

Sweetpea

Dear dear,

Such anger dispite the fact that the unnamed mod never ever censored you or banned you inspite of the "in your face" attitude you showed him...it took you mouthing off to another mod to get permenantly banned.

Oh well, the unnamed mod can still ban your clone. :D

good grief, i can't believe he's still so angry . . . over a online politics discussion board!
I can't fathom holding onto that kind of anger for any period of time . . . I'm thinking perhaps a mental imbalance is at play here.

Sweetpea

Nonsense.

I discount your blatant lies.

You did ban me - you even stated precisely that. I was banned for "piling on" to a member. (Never could figure that one out, considering I was the first to respond to the member, but hey, I'd never accuse you of being logical.)

As for the permanent ban - I have no clue how that came about. I had over 700 posts on TFP, was given a week ban for an innocuous post, reported the ban with the incredulity it deserved and found two weeks later that my account was permanently banned. I suppose that was justified through someone's whim. Who knows. Kill the members, I say! Considering the ridiculous actions that pass for moderation around here (and end up getting praised), I'm not suprised. Your claim that I "mouthed off" to a moderator is aparently born of your fanciful imagination - that same place where you found "nonsense" and "I discount you" to pass for acceptable TFP contribution. Prior to the post you just responded to, I'd never mouthed off to anyone, moderator or member, here on TFP.

The sad thing is, you continually harass and blame the wrong person. I made the decision and I pulled the trigger. I honestly don't care what anyone's political preferences are. You shit on the board and got a week ban to calm down. Instead you sign back up just to shit on it again. You can keep up this "poor me, I'm being oppressed and censored" bullshit if you want, but it's just that, bullshit.

And if it's so fucking terrible here, why the hell do you keep coming back?

</end rant>

I'm upset that manx is banned, I liked reading his arguments. Don't know why he signed up as politics and wrote that rant, of course I understand why has been permanently banned now.

Knowing now that this was Manx, I had to look over what he was banned for, just for curiousity. (I do think that there was a true animosity towards a mod that went deeper than just the board.)

What I cannot understand is how after the banning someone made a joke of it and is still here. I would think that would be lower and more petty than whatever the banning was over because that is a definitive mockery and personal attack.

Just my opinion.

Believe it or not, we typically end up giving people many chances before permanently banning them - perhaps more than we should. The person you speak of may still be around, but you do not know what kind of things went on behind the scenes regarding him/her (i.e. warnings, etc).

I understand, just I thought that was a blatant and classless act.

pan, I really honestly don't know if you are talking about me or not, but I'll go ahead and answer as if you are.

I know that I can have a temper as well as an overly sarcastic streak in me, and I also know that have shown it on this board.

When I have done so I have tried to publically recognize it as well as appologize for it, even to people that I privately may not care for, even Manx.

BUT I have also gone out of my way to avoid the apperance of letting my personal feelings dictate how I mod a board, and I feel that I have been mostly successful. In the case of Manx, I took far more abuse from him than I would take from anyone in normal circumstances, so much so that other mods were surprised and offered to ban him for me.

No, it took him being repeatedly rude to other posters for him to earn a 7 day temp ban (which I did indeed issue). Others, both to the left and right, have recieved the same stepwise warnings/bannings and are still here. But Manx had to sign up as another user to bitch about it. This is why he was permanently banned.

But like an angry child, he can't stay away.

So if you are talking about me making a joke of him, I'm sorry, but you'll have to live with that. I didn't make a joke out of him, he did it himself with this sort of behavior.

No Lebell, it wasn't about your comments. You are human and the guy was pushing your buttons, I thought you handled it quite well and maturely. And I also know that he is continuing this and it is sad that someone takes it so far and so personally without taking responsibility for self.

My post dealt with another and just because I found it distasteful doesn't mean that it is.... let's face it I am sometimes overly sensitive :p , and I shall end it at that.

Replaced with this......as we will do to all worthless, bitching pointless stabs at each other. Period.

I so wish it didnt come to this....I really do

I'm sorry to see Manx go.

I liked his intelligent posts immensely, and I generally found his arguments well structured and logical.

Oh well. I guess we'll have to do with petty name calling, as that's what the PB is descending into these days. It's got worse the few months I was away.

Mr Mephisto

By way of example, I had to stop and think for about five minutes before hitting the Post button, as I almost expect to be warned or banned for simply writing the above statements. This is not a good thing.

To be honest Mephisto, I really have no idea why you'd expect to be warned or banned for basically echoing what Halx has said. Tilted Politics has degraded into name calling rather than actual discussion. It's a problem and it needs to stop.

As for Manx's posts, yes, many of them were intelligent. It's a shame that so many also had other issues. You don't get to see what we remove from the board, but his behavior now should give a clear indication that there was plenty of UNintelligent posting as well.

Mr Mephisto,

Unfortunately while Manx was intelligent and could be well spoken, he was part of the name calling problem.

Because it sometimes appears as if dissension is cause for warning or banning.

But no matter. Let's move on.


Mr Mephisto

Appears is the operative word. (Normally I'd agree with moving on, but I think this is an important point to make here.) Let me give you the typical anatomy of a banning...

User in a post: [some mild flaming comment]
Mod to user in PM: this is a warning, don't do that again
User a few weeks later (hopefully): [slightly more significant flame]
Mod to user: I warned you, stop or else further action will be taken
User to mod: [personal attack on mod, combined with accusation of mod bias]
(let me take the moment to point out the humorous fact that just about every mod that has been accused of mod bias has been accused of being so by BOTH sides, and this includes mods that don't even participate in Tilted Politics for all intents and purposes)
Mod to user: [gives some sort of temporary ban]
At this point, one of two things typically occurs..
1) User: [re-registers under a different name and decides to crap all over the boards]
or 2) comes back after temporary ban, reforms for a short while until it all starts again from the beginning. Eventually we just get sick of working with people like this.

You see, it appears sometimes that people are banned after only making some mild flame or dissention on the forums. The truth is, there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that leads up to a banning, and I've even left out all the discussion between mods. Few permanent bans occur without discussion among the mods, lest you think these are unilateral decisions by some "biased" mod. Most users take option number 2 at the end, and the process occurs about 4 or 5 times before a banning is made permanent. Naturally, this is just a generalization...lots of users skip the temporary bannings and just temporarily reform after warnings many times...but, again, after giving someone 8 warnings, it becomes pretty clear that the person is not going to stop.

Hence my emphasis on appears.

I have never accused mods of being biased. But, if you honestly want my opinion, I agree with Manx's assertion that mods for the PB should not participate in the threads. If a mod is interested in posting to the PB, then I think they should not be a mod for the PB. Just seems like common sense to me.

Either way, my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed. If there was another side to him that I didn't see, well then... think about it. I didn't see it. :)

Mr Mephisto

[QUOTE=Mr Mephisto]my only reason for posting on this thread was to lament the passing of a boardmember whose contribution I valued and enjoyed.[QUOTE]

That sounds like sound advice, and I'll accept that challenge. I recently felt difficulty moderating a thread I had posted in, this will help remove that conflict. I have recently posted about some of the challenges I find in engaging in such discourse. Instead of posting I will merely read and edjucate myself silently.

Thus I will tread the PB and no longer post in any threads.

Thank you for helping see that direction.

As will I...........

If the mods can't handle posting and moding they shouldn't be mods as they lack the needed ability to detach themselves.

Likewise if the posters will automaticly assume that because a mod disagrees with them politically they therefore think the mod is biased, they need to take a break from the PB.

Of all my time here my harshest warning has been from Art, and he and I are pretty close politically.

In fact I'd much rather have involved mods on both sides then someone who never posts out of the blue comming in bitching about a thread. You have no idea if they know the history of the posters involved and I'd be much more worried about them making a rash and unfair judgement.

This is a message board, not a court of law, we don't have to worry about conflict of interest to such a degree.

I don't think that's a necesssary direction Cynthetiq. Most of you mods were made such at least in part because of the quality of your posts. Why lose that quality just because you're mods?

Seems to me you can take part in the debates and still restrain the idiots from being offensive.

Is there anyway to maybe just be "temporarily banned" from the Politics Board"? Kind of like a time-out. You know there are so many other threads out there I often "ban" myself from Politics and go hang out in Humor, Sports, sometimes Willravel's threads in Paranoia! There's so many other coolthreads to explore (one of the best parts of TFP). Then I take a peek back at Politics with a "refreshed/renewed" spirit and perspective.

Oh yeah, the T***y Board is always a nice break too! ;)

Meph, I know what you mean, sometimes I hesitate and feel uncomfortable for fear of being banned or warned for posting my opinions. It's like walking on eggshells aroung here. I also feel like lately, it's gotten really cliquey and people gang up on others for their opinions and then turn around and say, "hit the back button if you don't like what I'm saying." There was even one mod who told us to "shut the fuck up" because of our opinions expressed (we were in no way out of line by the way). That's hardly encouraging free debate. It's not a nice feeling.

However, I do appreciate and understand the mods clarification in explaining how things work. COmmunication is always good.

Alot of people have disappeared from the Politics Forum lately too. It's a shame.

Well, guys, it's our board too so it's up to ourselves to contribute content and hold each other accountable. I remember one of the TFP's mantras, "you get as much out of it as you put in."

So come on everybody, let's jump in the pool!

Wow, my thoughts exactly you two. I was fairly active until about November of last year, then suddenly quit caring so much about politics, which was one of the primary reason I used to come here besides well, the boobs. I even switched from talk radio to sports talk radio. Just got burned out on politics after the election, and maybe I'm not alone.
If Superbelt, Mr. Mephisto, and Dr. Ustwo have been gone, but are now planning on being around a bit more, maybe it will subtly encourage others to post more like what I was accustomed to seeing here. Hope so. This forum used to be very unique. (and for awhile there I was looking at several political forums) The internet has exacerbated the "Balkanization" of society (damn that sounds terribly cheesey) in the sense that people flock to their interests. Most people interested in one thing or another share similar viewpoints, and forums tend to reflect this, with a few rabid minorities trying to stir things up. TFP politics was different in that is was a large cross section of society sharing only the common trait of being at least initially interested in boobs and being marginally internet savvy. Therefore you got a balanced debate from people that were more open-minded than average, and it was, I thought, pretty cool. I sure hope that it has not gone too far downhill, but it sounds like it took several steps back if there was talk of shutting down the forum.
I guess, thankfully, it seems from this thread that in my absence I may not have been missing out on all that much, and instead am catching the politics board on an upswing.

Wait a minute. This does matter. If people are having the preconceived notion that if they dissent from the majority opinion in a discussion that they will be subject to get a warning/ban from this site then I think that the opinions of people are being restricted. From what I've seen so far, I'd even go as far to say that they were being censored just because they disagree from the majority. Yes, there is a way to have an intelligent discussion or even an argument without resorting to name calling but when people feel that they can't express their opinions for fear of being banned then I think that's a problem.

You're right...and that's why I responded to dispel that myth

Laugh I did exactly the same thing, including the talk radio bit, I switched to sports and figured if something important enough to matter happened, they would break into the news.

Saddly with the restricted access the boobs are far more limited these days but I'll stick around politics for a bit.

I have been around the block a few times, and my observation, as a student of U.S. history and from first hand, close up, life experience, as a politically active and opinionated U.S. resident, is that these are the most polarized and politically charged days that I have lived through. There is a lot at stake, including policies that are determining whether there will continue to be a "middle" economic class of signifigant size, and whether the Bill of Rights will afford us any of the protections, in the coming years, in a way that can be recognized as comparable to our understanding of these "inalienable" rights enjoyed (and possibly taken for granted), in the past. Part of the difference of opinion is the reaction, appropriately bordering on outrage, of those who believe that warrantless searches, called 'sneak and peak" invasions of the residences of private citizens, and other searches that formerly required warrants signed by judges, but now approved, and then carried out, only by the officials in law enforcement and other government investigative units, who deem them necessary and appropriate, vs. those who are satisfied that the change is necessary and the risk of placing the protection of the individual against the risk of unreasonable search, in the hands of the searchers themselves, instead of in the hands of an impartial member of the judiciary, is acceptable. This is a big leap, and some defend it as necessary, and seem to communicate a belief that the fury exhibited by the incredulous and concerned opposition, is as alarming an issue as the enabling and permitting of policies of warrantless searches, are, themselves.

The reaction by the defenders of, and those unconcerned about the new search policies, is to sometimes accuse the outraged opposition of being "unpatriotic" or "un-American", for posting opinions and descritptions of what the process of weakening the Bill of Rights actually amounts to.

In the 60's, there were enough signs that there was cause for concern, that everyone was, by and large, concerned. There were race riots in major cities, assassinations of prominent advocates for social and political change, and some weeks, 500 or more U.S. soldiers died in Vietnam and many of the dead and wounded were pictured on tv, as they were carried from battle. The poor and disenfranchised in society were largely not disputed to be in such circumstances.

Now we seem to live in political crosscurrents where some actually either believe that many of the issues and controversies, even some of the ones that are of grave concern to some of us who post on these threads, literally matters that will determine the future structure of our government, our laws, our health, and the state of our economy, and our environment, are not controversies or problems at all, certainly nothing rising to the state of the alarm and attention that we afford to them.

Very curious and troubling times, aggravated by an explosion of information and sources of it. Those who are old enough can remember when there were three tv networks for the news, and one news anchor of such stature, that if he proclaimed something to be so, it was. Lyndon Johnson, almost immediately after Walter Cronkite, in early 1968, declared on tv that the war in Vietnam was no longer "winnable", withdrew his candidacy for a second full term as president.

Well,,,,we no longer have, real or imagined, any arbiter of issues of the influence that Cronkite once wielded. We have only our own opinions these days, and it shows. We foist them on each other here, and it gets heated, because some of us
are very concerned about the future, others less so, and still others, frustrated by our inability to perceive current trends as positive developments that are progressing in the correct direction.

We do not "settle" anything here. Our interaction seems to strenghten our resolve. This is a politics discussion board. It needs to be a DMZ, and that is about all that the majority of us can agree on. My goal here is to do the best that I can to justify the opinions that I convey here with the most unimpeachable and verifiable sources of information that I am able to locate and point others to. I am engaged in a learning process here, and I hope i can recognize and learn from others here who are also trying to discern what it is that is really going on in America today. This is a process of determining what ideas and policies to support or oppose, who the advocates are of the ideas and policies, and to what degree it is appropriate for oneself to support of oppose them.

Some principles and beliefs are worth risking life or limb to support or to oppose. American adults are skillful in demanding those kinds of commitments of people in other parts of the world, and of our own young countrymen who are influenced to serve in our military. As dependent as we are finding ourselves on the enduring value of our paper currency and on a petroleum supply that we no longer own or control, all of us have more weighty matters to concern ourselves with than most of the matters that attract the most attention and participation in this politics forum.
Please consider getting back to the other threads or starting new ones. I propose more participation on these threads by Halx and mods and administrators. These times are too troubling and challenging for anyone who could potentially participate to "opt out".

I know what you mean. I used to think that way about a certain TFP Nonsense denizen whose username began with 'b'. He was banned a couple of times, but kept coming back with other usernames. Then I witnessed him 'crapping all over the board', as SM70 so elegantly put it. Sympathy gone.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a better way for the Mods to handle these problematic users than they are doing now.

I agree with that sentiment, but I personally found it difficult to straddle the line in this one thread.

The quality of my personal posts is not apparent in the politics thread at this time because I personally don't have enough information and counter information to engage in true meaningful debate, especially in very high level discourse of political philosophy.

My abstinence will help keep clarity and transparancy of moderating.

Maybe once I'm better versed in the topics and players I can also better moderate and direct discussions/debate to either conclusion or agree to disagree stalemate.

What seems to happen is that the agree to disagree stalemate comes to play not as often as it should and instead turns the thread into a quoting and counter quoting match of trying to show how stupid or idiotic the other person is.

Someone please explain to me how an opinion can infringe on someone else.

I thought we would just skip the moral outrage and moral relativism stages and go straight to semantic twig-tweaking.

The politics board was actually the thing I liked most about what the TFP had to offer. I don't post very often anymore, mainly because I'm over at a political simulation site and I am usually putting fires out somewhere that effects my character and by the time I get to the TFP, I've generally already read the stories, commented on them, argued about them and exhausted my mental capacity to deal with partisan bickering in the General Discussion board of the Gov Sim site I'm on. So I just read through, and just take-in what's going on. Then I usually head over to Entertainment and Gaming to get the happenings in those realms. I still like the TFP and enjoy hearing many views from many different people, so for even those of us that are qualified "lurkers" now, we still appreciate what goes on here. I know that a few of the views of TFP members on here have been well represented on the Gov Sim site that I play on. As to the moderators, they're fair, I've never seen them overstep their bounds and even go against their own opinions to make decisions, I applaud y'all's work.

I think what feelgood meant was that you are allowed to have an opinion. As long as it's not "Fuck you! [political person] is such a [communist/nazi] and deserves to die! And you do too for supporting him/her! Argakfgafgkasdgfkj!!!"