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Old 05-09-2004, 10:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Racism.... against whites?

Hello everyone -

I believe this is my first thread here in politics, but I have run into this issue quite a few times recently, and am curious as to what your thoughts are...

First of all, I would like to get a couple things out of the way.

I am not in any way, shape, or form racist or discriminitory, however, lately I have been noticing more and more how being a white male seems almost frowned upon by the government.

I am a younger white male, age 20, that went to a high school where whites were the minority. Although I can't say that I never, ever heard any terrible comments about someone's race, it seems to me that racism is quickly becoming more of an unpleasant memory for most of us than an actual issue.

Granted, I am not trying to say that it doesn't happen anymore, as I am sure it still does, but in my humble opinion, most members of Generation X and after (at least in my area) have few racial issues.

Anyway, here are a couple of stories that I would like to share for discussion, in an attempt to justify the title.

Example #1
I am in the lending business, and there are a variety of laws regarding ECOA (equal credit opportunity act). A portion of this consists of the HMDA reports, which basically is a government issued form that reports the race of people that we lend out to using a home as collateral.

The lending guidelines that we follow are federally governed, and after filling out the application, I submit it to be underwritten (approved, denied, ect.) Recently, on more than one occasion, I have submitted poor credit applications that were denied when "white, non hispanic" was checked. I realized on one application that I had made an error regarding the HMDA information and I wanted to correct it when the denial was sent out. However, when I resubmit the application with "black" checked, and no other information changed, it came back as approved. I have tested this on many applications that I have submitted for "white, non hispanic" by switching the racial information to a different race, and a good 20-30% of the time they'll come back approved.

This annoys me quite a bit. Simply because someone is white, it seems, they must meet more stringent requirements to qualify for a loan. Equal, in my mind, should be just that - not favoritism for one race or another.

Example #2
A friend of mine, who is a Hmong Female, was recently hired as a electrician on a large government project. However, they began laying people off, as they must have overestimated the number of people that they would require, and instead of laying off my friend, who has no experience in the field, they laid off several far more experienced white males. In fact, they didn't lay off a single non-white worker.

Again, this pisses me off, as the people, regardless of race, that are less experienced should be laid off first unless there are other circumstances (ie discipline, ect.).

My friend was actually so angry that she was favored over veterans in the field, due to the tax-breaks she can offer the company (minority & female), she quit. I certainly respect her for it, but I don't see any issues with anyone taking advantage of any "edges" that they are given.

Sorry for the longer post, just wanted to give you guys the full story...

I am very interested in your comments
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Old 05-09-2004, 10:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Looks like I"m the first to respond, so here goes. This is what happens when strict policies against discrimination are in place. Companies would rather fire a betteer employee when making cuts than face multimillion dollar lawsuit on the basis of rascism.

White males are the only segment of society with no perks. Even white women have it better because they can cry sexual harassment, rape, or gender discrimination depending on the situation. I say stop rewarding people for being born who they are, and then you'll have true equality. Discrimination sure isn't going to fade away if we as a society keep drawing attention to people and calling them victims.
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Old 05-09-2004, 10:49 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Gotta go, so not much time to post, BUT, i do firmly believe reverse discrimination is far more abundant and abusive in todays society than the 'normal' racism. I have known far too many minorities get places in colleges, etc simply because that institution needed to fulfill a racial blending quota.

Another observation. While not really discrimination or racism, ever find a scholorship out there for simply being white? Back when i was going to do the whole college ap thing, there were more than a few scholarships being offered simply for being a minority. I've got a little American Indian in me, so on one of the standardized tests i had to take, i put that as my ethnic affiliation. Youd be amazed how much more people are interested in you if your not white.

I think equal opportunity needs to become just that - EQUAL. Not slightly more equal if you've been 'oppressed' opportunity, or "you've had it equal for long enough" opportunity.
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Old 05-09-2004, 10:59 PM   #4 (permalink)
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White male here, and I just find these types of arguments unbelievable. I have a very close friend( a guy I have know almost my whole life) who is black and he had run into more roadblocks in his first thiry-three years than I will ever in my whole life.

You know, my wife is a blonde with blue eyes and she got a ton of college loans and grants. I work with a group that gives scholarships to a state university, and we do it on merit. I honestly think the concept of "if your ancestors were oppressed you got it made" is a bunch of crap.

How many of you who feel blacks or hispanics or women are getting a better deal, would be willing to change places?
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Old 05-09-2004, 11:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mml
How many of you who feel blacks or hispanics or women are getting a better deal, would be willing to change places?
Who is or is not getting a "better deal" is not really the question -- it's whether or not fighting racism with racism is something that will be effective. I think it does nothing but encourage negativity towards one group or another -- and I belong to three such minority groups. Have I experienced some difficulties with certain people because of my minority-affiliations? Yes. Does that make it justified or right for me to be racist towards straight white males? Absolutely not.

Affirmative action, especially racial quotas, is a painfully obvious wrong way to go about the problem and provides only a temporary visible fix for election year -- not a lasting solution. Why, seretogis, what is a lasting solution, you ask? Remove all mentions of race/orientation/gender from legislation. Let society itself work out their prejudices by giving everyone an equal footing under the eyes of the law. Do not put any so-called oppressed group on a pedestal if it makes them higher than anyone else as far as the law is concerned.
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:49 AM   #6 (permalink)
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of course the white male suffers from discrimination.

another story, as anecdotal as it may be: my dad accidently checked "native american" on his SATs in high school... scholarship offers nearly broke their mailbox. once those schools found out he was just another white kid... nothing.

mml, i'm glad your scholarship group gives them out on merit alone... but just because that is so doesn't change the fact that many state universities and government programs do not operate with that same criteria.

when and where does this stop? i don't think the government should be in the business of correcting perceived social injustice by showing favoritism. if the impetus for social change comes from laws imposed on people rather than individual choice... then we are no closer to racial/gender/sexual preference/religious harmony than before.

why aren't these loan/scholarship/employment decisions based on income rather than race? if the argument is that social injustice has caused a minority to be economically disadvantaged... then the minority will receive a greater portion of the assistance by virtue of their disadvantage. when that supposed injustice is righted by a scale based on economic status... the minority will no longer be as dependent on such programs with the added benefit of eliminating racial tension from the equation.
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Old 05-10-2004, 02:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
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racism against whites is prevelant in society, but in an entirely different way to racism as we know it.

basically, being white (and especially male) makes you the lowest common denominator. your not entitled to any special treatment in any way whatsoever, you make it on your own.
if a black/asian guy accuses a white guy of taking his job, everyone goes up in arms, if it's the other way round, he gets a smack in the face for being such a whiney bastard.

excusing the crude terminology used, but society has become so PC that it's bending over backwards to deal with anyone who isn't white, and generally ignoring everyone who is.

Now, i'm going to ramble about how PC is affecting this, so scroll down if you don't want to read it.

For instance, my next door neighbours is a large asian family of about 4 generations. The owner of this house is a wealthy business man who lives in london, 25 miles away, and rarely visits.
the family has done extensive 'rennovations' to their house, all of which have broken every planning law in the book. whenever the council tries to get them to sort it out, the house owner plays the racist card and the council backs down.
Now, about a year ago, we tried to build a small pergola in our garden. the council spent 3 months jumping down our throats to make sure we followed planning laws, and it would have been fire and brimstone if we hadn't...


Unfortunatly, in a world run by PC, and where everyone can and does sue each other for no good reason. Real equality for everyone won't come around until the small factions and the governments stop dicking around.
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Old 05-10-2004, 03:37 AM   #8 (permalink)
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considering the years(decades) of discrimination, which have lead to an obvious disparity in the ratio of well educated minorities, I can see the need for an equalizer. Is it fair, No. Does it work, Doubtful. Is it at least an attempt, Yes. We unfortunately, are attempting to create an even playing field out of a canyon, and it wont be easy.
As for the white male getting Zero preferential treatment, I beg to differ. As a representative of this class of person, I see (in the big picture) far more opportunity for myself from birth to death, than for any other class of humans on this earth, there can be no doubt about this FACT.
I am reminded of the spoiled child, bitching about vanilla ice cream, when he wanted chocolate, right in front of the child with none.
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:11 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
considering the years(decades) of discrimination, which have lead to an obvious disparity in the ratio of well educated minorities, I can see the need for an equalizer. Is it fair, No. Does it work, Doubtful. Is it at least an attempt, Yes. We unfortunately, are attempting to create an even playing field out of a canyon, and it wont be easy.
I'm sorry, but if you admit that it is doubtful that racism against whites works to "create an even playing field out of a canyon," why on earth would you support it? If anything, it adds to the problem by creating racial tension where there should be none. If I walked into a fast food restaurant and ordered a hamburger but they only gave me a patty and a half-eaten bun, I would not be satisfied with the product and I wouldn't give it an "A for effort" though it would be the politically correct thing to do. So, why would you be satisfied with an unfair "equalizer" that you don't think even works? Wouldn't you rather that a fair and working system be thought up and put into action rather than half-assed "well, it might work, but we doubt it" legislation?

Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
As for the white male getting Zero preferential treatment, I beg to differ. As a representative of this class of person, I see (in the big picture) far more opportunity for myself from birth to death, than for any other class of humans on this earth, there can be no doubt about this FACT.
Facts require evidence. Please provide evidence the next time you proclaim an opinion of yours to be fact. I pass as a straight white male and have received absolutely no preferential treatment because of it. However, if I fill out the race portion of applications correctly, I get all sorts of call-backs. This is not "equalizing" -- it's racism.

Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
I am reminded of the spoiled child, bitching about vanilla ice cream, when he wanted chocolate, right in front of the child with none.
I fail to see how this relates. Are you suggesting that minorities are incapable to fend for themselves in this White Man Holding You Down world? That's nonsense. There are many minorities who have become successful by their own will and determination. So-called "minorities" will soon out-number whites in this country, and hold positions in every area of our marketplace.
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:32 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I don't know if I'm being discriminated against as a white male. I do agree with Chris Rock about how great it is to be white.
Quote:
There ain’t a white man in this room that would change places with me! And I’m rich! That’s how good it is to be white. There’s a one-legged busboy in here right now saying, ‘I don’t want to change. I’m gonna ride this white thing out, see where it takes me.
Anecdotal evidence of successful minorities aside, looking at census data on poverty and race from 2002:
9.9% of whites below the poverty line
22.7% of blacks
10.2% of Asian/Pacific Islander
21.4% of Hispanic

Now I don't know if minorities are incapable of fending for themselves, but social Darwinism would seem to suggest that Hispanics and Blacks (or African-Americans, or whatever) should be ground up and spat out. To come up with another analogy, if the USA was a footrace started from this moment, whites would have a significant head start. Should we try to correct that disparity, or should we just hope that the other ethnic groups are fast enough to catch up?
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:42 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Perhaps you should re-read my post, you may understand a few things more clearly.

#1- I do not support the "attempts" being made, but understand why they are bieng attempted. You drew a conclusion that was incorrect.

#2-If you did not understand the term "big picture" then I am sorry for my lack of clarity. As a general rule, there are far more opportunities available to a "white male" than to any other individual in this society. If you cannot see this, I will not convince you of the obvious regardless of the endless list of information available, both factual and hypothetical.

#3- Wow....talk about putting words into someones mouth. I would think, in the context of my post (and the general theme of those above it) the meaning here was abundantly clear. The complaints by White males, of reverse discrimination, would be the child with the Ice cream. While the treatless child would represent the minorities, lacking the same opportunity, and watching another bitch about what thay have.

It is unfortunate that you have chosen to take such a negative stance concerning my "opinion", but you are correct that it is indeed just that, opinion. It is however, one formed through years of observation and life experience. As for the benefits of bieng a white male in this society, if you truly cannot see this obvious reality, then I will bow out, and admit the error of my understanding in your eyes.
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:50 AM   #12 (permalink)
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NoSoup, I think you should take Example 1 and shop the story around to your local TV stations. Keep trying until one does the story. That's a flagrant abuse and the public should know about it.

Racism in ANY form is wrong. For the government to deny loans to people solely because they are white is no less evil than for businesses to deny entrance to people solely because they are black.
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:46 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
#1- I do not support the "attempts" being made, but understand why they are bieng attempted. You drew a conclusion that was incorrect.
You said: "We unfortunately, are attempting to create an even playing field out of a canyon, and it wont be easy."

This to me screams "justification," but I admit I may have read too much into it.

Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
#2-If you did not understand the term "big picture" then I am sorry for my lack of clarity. As a general rule, there are far more opportunities available to a "white male" than to any other individual in this society. If you cannot see this, I will not convince you of the obvious regardless of the endless list of information available, both factual and hypothetical.
How, as a general rule, are there "far more opportunities" available to whites than minorities? It is reprehensible in this society to have "white-only" or "straight-only" scholarships, but it's perfectly acceptable to give scholarships only to non-white racial groups. What about the lower-middle-class white kids whose parents can't afford to send them to college? Don't try to force equality of outcome when there is already equality of opportunity.

Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
#3- Wow....talk about putting words into someones mouth. I would think, in the context of my post (and the general theme of those above it) the meaning here was abundantly clear. The complaints by White males, of reverse discrimination, would be the child with the Ice cream. While the treatless child would represent the minorities, lacking the same opportunity, and watching another bitch about what thay have.
Again, you assume that they lack the same opportunity, yet have nothing to back this claim up other than saying "big picture" and citing an "endless list of information available," none of which you bother to quote here.

Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
It is unfortunate that you have chosen to take such a negative stance concerning my "opinion", but you are correct that it is indeed just that, opinion.
So, my response to the near-religous fervor with which you proclaimed your opinion as "FACT" is now negative? Hmm..
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:55 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I appreciate everyone's answers here - very interesting indeed.

I am reminded of a quote, I believe it was from Animal Farm...
All are created equal, but some are more equal than others



If ending racism/discrimination is our goal, we should not allow any mention of race in our laws, nor allow scholorships or other rewards be based on race.

Racism was once a very huge problem, and at one time racial quotas probably were useful, as it pretty much forced employers to integrate their businesses. However, it seems to me that most people are trying to get away from all racial discrimination altogether, yet every day it is thrown in our faces again and again via our lawmaking system. The fact that I am a straight, white male, or a gay, asian female should make absolutely no difference when it comes to hiring me or giving me money for school, it should be based on merit & merit alone.

Granted, if I was a gay, asian female I would not hesitate to take advantage of any governmental programs out there that would help me, and I wholeheartedly encourage anyone that can to do so. However, the fact that there is basically a "bonus" to being one color or sex over the next is pathetic.

As long as the government differentiates between races, it makes it impossible for the rest of us not to.

I am looking forward to a non-white person to reply to this, as it seems so far that is all we have. I hope that I do not offend anyone with my opinions, we all know that racial matters are a touchy subject, and I am certain that being a white male definately makes my thoughts on how often descrimination based on race still happens less valid, as it should.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:01 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Guess I will allow you to consider my opinion as unfounded, as I really haven't the inclination to debate the benefits of bieng a white male in America. The "Near religious fervor" you felt from my post was all in your interpretation of the message. I honestly don't place this issue in a high priority in my list, as there is little I can do to change it.
Fact was definately too strong of a word in this instance, simply because one has to be willing to accept a fact for it to be so. I will however, stick to my assumption of opportunity bieng more prevelant to this class of people in our society.
This will sound like a slam, but is in fact just an honest observation, I apologize in advance for the way it will sound.
There is a certain level of thought required to fully appreciate the depths of "built in" opportunity within our culture, that is directed towards those with money and power. I will refrain from further activity on this thread to avoid becoming negative towards the lack of comprehension I percieve. (note this is only my opinion).

Poverty and poor education are a serious disadvantage in life.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:16 AM   #16 (permalink)
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They day they put white racial quotas on football and basketball is the day i won't mind the non-white racial quotas everywhere else.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:16 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
There is a certain level of thought required to fully appreciate the depths of "built in" opportunity within our culture, that is directed towards those with money and power.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
Poverty and poor education are a serious disadvantage in life.
I agree with you 100% with this. However, if you consider that a [insert minority race here] child has a much better chance of attaining a better education than a white child when both are living in poverty, I feel that that in itself says a lot about the problems that arise from our "anti-discrimination" laws.

If you take those two children, both should have equal chances of becoming successful in life, not either one being favored over the other.

Tecoyah - Please don't refrain from posting your opinion here, as you are, so far, one of the few dissenting people. Your opinion is just as valued as anyone else, and had I wanted all to agree, I wouldn't have put a post regarding a controversial subject in the political forum. You certainly could bring to light many points that I haven't even considered, and welcome the opportunity to expand my personal horizians...
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:26 AM   #19 (permalink)
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According to what I read, in the 70's minority leaders only envisioned affirmative action as lasting only about ten years at the most. It was just to help people catch up in areas and businesses where there was obvious discrimination.
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Old 05-10-2004, 10:03 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pocon1
According to what I read, in the 70's minority leaders only envisioned affirmative action as lasting only about ten years at the most. It was just to help people catch up in areas and businesses where there was obvious discrimination.
Well, I don't think that's happened yet. I grant there are two interpretations: 1, that we need to keep doing it longer than anticipated to get things right or 2, that it doesn't work and we need to stop at once.
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Old 05-10-2004, 10:39 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I think the problem is that people become so entrenched in their position on this issue that they don't try to compromise. There are those who say affirmative action was never needed and others who will always say it's needed, no matter what.

I think affirmative action was clearly needed in the 70s and it has done alot of good since then. Is everything perfect now? Of course not and numerous studies bear that out, but I think its unrealistic to think it ever will be. Affirmative action needs to reformed and gradually scaled back. Nowadays, more and more people are using the rationale of diversity to justify affirmative action, which doesn't make sense to me. If affirmative action is needed to continue its original purpose, that's fine. But don't make up excuses to justify its existence.
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:05 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
Poverty and poor education are a serious disadvantage in life.
Now the question that arises in my mind. Assuming that minorities do in fact have a poor education and higher poverty levels, as that census data indicates...the question is why? Do you honestly believe they are poor simply because there skin is darker? Maybe in a few extremely rare cases, yes. Are they poor because of a poor education, probably. Do they have a poor education because blacks aren't allowed to attend school, or somebody doesn't allow them to turn in their papers because they have darker skin? I doubt it.

I think the real reason for the poverty levels and poor education is cultural, rather than their visual appearance. As a whole, the black community doesn't stress education very highly. School generally isn't looked upon as something you need to work hard on when you are young. Poor efforts at school is more at fault than a schools poor efforts with the students. Flip this around, and look as the Asian culture. They tend to put a very high stress on education. This of course leads to better job opportunities and a lower poverty level. It is, in fact, barely above that of the "whites". This small difference could easily be attributed to a smaller sample size. A simillar or smaller difference can make a bigger effect on the % if the sample size is smaller. Also, they are grouped in with teh "pacific islanders". Now i dont know as much about their culture, but they dont tend to stress education as much as the Asian culture, at least in my observations. In reality then, the Asian group probably has a much lower poverty percentage than the whites do. So, we have a culture that doesn't put much, if any, stress on education, and they have very high percentage living below the poverty line. And we have a culture that puts a helluva lot of stress on education, that is probably the lowest percentage below the poverty line.

Now which makes more sense, blacks and other minorities are poor because society is out to get them simply because they have a different skin color, or that they are feeling the effects of a cultural indiffernce to education?
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Old 05-10-2004, 11:41 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peryn
I think the real reason for the poverty levels and poor education is cultural, rather than their visual appearance. As a whole, the black community doesn't stress education very highly. School generally isn't looked upon as something you need to work hard on when you are young. Poor efforts at school is more at fault than a schools poor efforts with the students. Flip this around, and look as the Asian culture. They tend to put a very high stress on education. This of course leads to better job opportunities and a lower poverty level. It is, in fact, barely above that of the "whites". This small difference could easily be attributed to a smaller sample size. A simillar or smaller difference can make a bigger effect on the % if the sample size is smaller. Also, they are grouped in with teh "pacific islanders". Now i dont know as much about their culture, but they dont tend to stress education as much as the Asian culture, at least in my observations. In reality then, the Asian group probably has a much lower poverty percentage than the whites do. So, we have a culture that doesn't put much, if any, stress on education, and they have very high percentage living below the poverty line. And we have a culture that puts a helluva lot of stress on education, that is probably the lowest percentage below the poverty line.

Now which makes more sense, blacks and other minorities are poor because society is out to get them simply because they have a different skin color, or that they are feeling the effects of a cultural indiffernce to education?
Two things. First, whether we accept the stereotype that Asians are more hard-working, there is no such stereotype about whites. How do you explain their lack of poverty? Second, assuming that it is a cultural indifference to education, what better solution could there be than encouraging young African-Americans and Hispanics to go to college and be examples of how education can improve life?
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:02 PM   #24 (permalink)
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programs like affirmative action are ment to encourage minorities into all walks of life. if we cultivate a society where all people in power are white we create the false impression that minorities are not capable of doing such jobs, this impression is likely not only to encourage racist beliefs but also discourages minority children from striving for excellence. The later is especially true when a child grows up in an all minority community with no role models in powerful or successful positions. Children like to identify with their heros, ideally racism would not exist and a child could easily overlook skin color when searching for similarities between him/herself and a role model, unfortunately, in our society it is often difficult to do this and children get the impression that white guys get to be presidents and mexican guys get to work the farms. psychologically white children (and psecifically white male children) are at an advantage because they can more easily see their heros as grown up version of themselves, until we have all races and both genders represented equally in out society true equality cannot be reached.
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Old 05-10-2004, 12:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
a cultural indifference to education, what better solution could there be than encouraging young African-Americans and Hispanics to go to college and be examples of how education can improve life?

well first off, I think this "cultural indifference to education" is a load of bullshit, but let's say it's true.

Is it now my responsibility as a white person to give up my chance at an education so that someone who is "indifferent" to it can go in my place? That also is a load of bullshit.
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:07 PM   #26 (permalink)
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As for the Asians being hardworking, look at the situation in Japan. Middle class families live in tiny, cramped apartments. People over there are workaholics. They have a name for a condition where workers die from fatigue from the long hours they put in. I've almost never heard of that happening over here. I'd say the environment they live in has a lot to do with it.

Regardless of how you perceive it, you cannot have equality when you favor any one race, or even gender, period. If they keep allowing preferential treatment to any segment of society for any reason, it won't ever end. Take away thses biased measure, and let integration happen on its own. It hasn't been legislation that changed the way Americans view minorities. Living and working together is the real force for change.
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Old 05-10-2004, 04:44 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
well first off, I think this "cultural indifference to education" is a load of bullshit, but let's say it's true.
I want to be clear, this precept is not my idea, but Peryn's.

Quote:
Originally posted by shakran

Is it now my responsibility as a white person to give up my chance at an education so that someone who is "indifferent" to it can go in my place? That also is a load of bullshit.
This is what it all comes down to, in my opinion. The minute white people hear that somebody is going to come take our shit, we lose our minds.
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:22 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by gondath
Regardless of how you perceive it, you cannot have equality when you favor any one race, or even gender, period. If they keep allowing preferential treatment to any segment of society for any reason, it won't ever end. Take away thses biased measure, and let integration happen on its own. It hasn't been legislation that changed the way Americans view minorities. Living and working together is the real force for change.
Best post yet.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
This is what it all comes down to, in my opinion. The minute white people hear that somebody is going to come take our shit, we lose our minds.
Yeah, because it's a bad thing to not want to have something taken from me and given to someone who doesn't deserve it.

If you want equality, you have to treat people equal. Just that simple. Anything that favors one group over another based one race does not do this.
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:34 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
I want to be clear, this precept is not my idea, but Peryn's.



This is what it all comes down to, in my opinion. The minute white people hear that somebody is going to come take our shit, we lose our minds.
If a non-white who is less qualified gets a job or a slot in a school that a more qualified white person was also up for, it is wrong.

If the non-white is more qualified, then he/she should have it. If he/she is less qualified, then he/she should not have it. It's that simple.
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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yes and no to much of this post...

I think on the one hand people need to take their heads out of their asses and realize that they themselves may not have truly deserved what someone else got... I mean psychologically all of us are going to look favorably upon ourselves or friends. That doesn't mean they're better but our perspective will say so til we believe it and thus its an example.

On the other hand, yes, there are many who don't deserve to get something that do and instead it is discriminatory.

I'll begin here by saying that I am from Los Angeles were much of the racism isn't all that prevalent as everywhere you go, you will see a diverse array of people. Its true there are enclaves or races but you honestly can't find a place that is more diverse.

As to the idea that people are culturally more focused... i say bullshit. I'm half Asian and the area I live in is almost entirely split between Asian and Hispanics. And I say bullshit.. why?

My family has had a strong emphasis on education and looking at my Asian side of the family, they have an emphasis too.

But is it culturally so? No. There were many Asians at schools who were complete fuck-ups that didn't deserve to be in Honors programs and what not because they cheated. Now of course that is not the norm but to say they are culturally more focused on education - that's not true.

The stereotype that blacks and hispanics aren't ... that's not true either. Generally many weren't focused but the truth is, there were many hard workers who did great.

But I'll put this for you to ponder:

A person's attitude and will to get ahead in society is the number one deciding factor. Because no matter how much money you have, if you are a lazy bum who can't say a coherent sentence, then all the money in the world isn't going to save you from being an unskilled fool.

At a close number two? Money and social status. A family that is well off (the Asian side of my family immigrated here a few decades ago but they were already quite well off and college educated) is going to have more of a focus on education no matter what.

What did I generally see in my years in schools and LA? No matter the race, often times if your family is in the middle to upper class, the family is going to focus on education more, and the child is going to get better support for school.

Now of course, my #1 factor shows that even poor can get ahead and can be brilliant at school through hard work.

But at the same time, the money and social status is important in how a child is raised. Many Hispanics I know have parents that did not have college educations. Many Asians I know have parents that did. Thus the emphasis is going to be changed - from my experience, Asians with college degrees are going to hold their children to much higher standards.

Anyways, I think most people get my point and may wonder what I am trying to get at..

Both social and economic status matter and shouldn't be discarded simply for not fitting a person's idea.

As for affirmative action and discrimination against whiites?

Trust me on this one - everyone wants their advantage and will do whatever it takes to find some grievance to make a big deal out of it.

In some ways, this call for racism against whites is the same thing that a minority may call for discrimination at work. Whether or not it is there, the simple feeling that they are being discrimianted will be brought up into a big issue. I see the exact same thing here.

And, another note, is that people will always focus on what they like. I remember doing college apps and from my experience, many Asians may be thinking "man I'm asian, i won't get any treatment... i hate affirmative action" then elsewhere they may be pro-affirmative action
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:07 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I agree with Peryn on this. As another anecdote, I know someone who essentially lost all his high school friends by going off to college. That's apparently not the thing to do if you're from the black ghetto. It also doesn't help in getting out of poverty when that culture tells you to drop $5k on rims for your rusted out cavalier while you can't feed your own family (another anecdote, but it seems common enough).

First or second generation orientals, east indians and africans (grew up in africa) overall seem to be much more responsible. They often come from awful beginnings (by US standards), and end up very successful.

This probably has something to do with them having the motivation to leave their home countries to seek another life, but the point is that you can make it in this country regardless of how you grew up. Its more difficult if you're poor, but trying to make things equal for everyone is bound to fail.
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Old 05-10-2004, 09:01 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I can accept the premise that people from a lower socioeconomic status have a disadvantage in society. What I cannot accept is the racist/sexist assumption that all black people (or women/Hispanics/etc) are necessarily disadvantaged. While racism still exists in a societal sense, many minorities are trapped in a cycle of poverty, not a cycle of racism. If you want fair and effective affirmative action, give it to all poor people because they are all attending the same failing schools in the same crime-ridden neighborhoods, regardless of race.

However, the problem with affirmative action is that it addresses the problem only after it has been created. There will always be poor people. But the key to upward mobility for the poor is early education, not trying to correct the problem when the person is 18, 28, 38 years old.
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Old 05-10-2004, 09:20 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeld2.0
In some ways, this call for racism against whites is the same thing that a minority may call for discrimination at work. Whether or not it is there, the simple feeling that they are being discrimianted will be brought up into a big issue. I see the exact same thing here.
This can be true in certain cases, but both of my examples stated in the top post are completely factual.

... bah, someone just got here, post more soon
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Old 05-10-2004, 10:03 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Completely factual... but obviously you're still taking it from the white perspective.

I think, however, in some of your examples, put in the % of the U.S. population based upon the numbers and you might see that the government is trying to balance it out based upon #s of whites and a share vs. # of blacks and a share (meaning, in other words, a black may have a higher chance due to fewer people)

Whether you agree or disagree with that method is another thing of course...

And to the comment by stingc on orientals and other places:

That isn't very true. Yes many do become successful when immigrating from poor areas.. but put it this way.

My mother and some of her family immigrated here in the 70's for college. She had already finished college in Taiwan and was coming to the U.S. for graduate stuff. She was already very well off in Taiwan as her parents were top bank officials and traders in Taiwan.

Many, and i say it again, many of those who have immigrated to the U.S. are those already well off enough to take that next step to immigrate to America. Take Indians (not Native Americans), for example - the only ones you will see here are those who are already considered upper class enough in Indian society to immigrate. The majority of Indians are too low in status to move. That's a big reason why we see (stereotyped or not) so many Indian doctors and lawyers - because those who can leave the country, are already those high enough in society.

This goes very well for a great load of Asians - the new wave of Chinese are coming from mainland China (the wave before was mainly from Taiwan). And these aren't poor peasants by any means - they are people rich enough to actually move out here and some are filthy rich (mom is a real estate broker and gets lots of these customers)

I think its easy to write down and say Asians are a model immigrant minority... that's simply based upon a very very small and mostly upper class minority in Asian society that has the ability to even move here. If you moved the typical Asian society to the U.S. in numbers equivalent to Hispanics or African Americans here, you will see conditions far worse.
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Old 05-11-2004, 05:13 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Anecdotal evidence of successful minorities aside, looking at census data on poverty and race from 2002:
9.9% of whites below the poverty line
22.7% of blacks
10.2% of Asian/Pacific Islander
21.4% of Hispanic




Instead of trying to drag whites below the poverty level one should examine the culture of nonwork and government dependency that causes the high poverty stats among minorities. I work at a job where everyday I see able-bodied people who prefer to receive their pittance from the government than go out and work. For some reason the majority of these people are black women. Ending progressive tax systems and income transfer programs (that keep the poor impoverished) would go a long way towards improving equality. I know this sounds bad, but I say go work and cut down the number of illegitimate children. Don't breed ignorance and poverty.

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Old 05-11-2004, 07:43 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeld2.0
Completely factual... but obviously you're still taking it from the white perspective.
I find this to be facinating. Please explain to me what the non-white perspective is.

Hmm... Reading that, it seems almost like I am belittling your comment. Let me elaborate so that it isn't taken the wrong way.

As a straight, white male, I, of all people am the least qualified to talk about racism. I tried to look at the situation from both points of view, and I had thought that I had formed an opinion that could be viewed and understood from both sides.

I certainly would encourage any minority to take full advantage of any programs out there that exclude whites, but my issue is basically this. Nowadays, if a minority person and a white person are both in the same situation, whether it be poverty, lack of education, or have troubled credit, ect, it has become far easier for the minority person to succeed. I don't believe that race should really make a difference in any of those cases - both should be helped and treated equally.

I also don't agree with giving a minority person a job solely due to their race, when they are less qualified than a white person. Personally, I couldn't care less if an entire company was comprised completely of minorities, as long as they were better qualified for the positions than whites. This relates to the educational breaks because as it sits right now, it is actually much easier for a minority person to become more qualified much easier than a white person in the same impoverished state.

If I remember correctly, you had said that you were half asian. If you were put in a situation similar to my friend, and you were a high-school graduate, but simply because of your skin color/sex you were able to continue earning an income instead of people that had college degrees in the field and/or years and years of experience, how would that make you feel? Would you feel that it was just or unjust? Just curious, as like you said, I am most likely viewing it from the white perspective.
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Old 05-11-2004, 10:14 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Woe is me, i have to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune because i am white. Quit whining. Even with quotas and AA, white people still generally have a higher quality of life than minorities. White people run this country. White people get the benefit of the doubt more often than minorities when it comes to the police, retailers, loan applications, etc. It seems that, in buying all the decorations for this pity-party we have forgotten a little thing called white privelidge. White americans have been benefitting from de facto affirmative action since before america was a nation, and we continue to benefit from it.

I don't think AA is the answer, but i think when it comes to complaining about discrimination, it is just another example that white people have finally arrived at the "racial injustice" party. The only difference now is that instead of throwing the party, we're just another guest and it irks the hell out of some of us. The funny thing is that, when most white people complain about being discriminated against, they only think that they are being discriminated against. They only pewl about "the poor, suffering white people". As far as they're concerned, racism ended somewhere between mlk's death and the cosby show.

In fact, to interpret what some folks think from what they have said, minorities are all actually in a much better position than white people in america today. "My goodness! They're getting all of the jobs, they're crowding out all of the white people in colleges and universities accross the nation!!"

Stop feeling sorry for yourself, white people. You're still better of than the average minority. You(the general you) weren't too bothered by discrimination until it happened to you.
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Old 05-11-2004, 10:37 AM   #39 (permalink)
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**takes a moment to stop and enjoy all of the outrageous fortune surrounding me, and offer my condolences to my minority boss - thanks for the reminder.
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Old 05-11-2004, 10:53 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton


...white people still generally have a higher quality of life than minorities....White people get the benefit of the doubt more often than minorities when it comes to... loan applications, etc. White people run this country.

...Stop feeling sorry for yourself, white people. You're still better off than the average minority. You(the general you) weren't too bothered by discrimination until it happened to you.
Well, please state your reasoning behind this. Is it simply your perception? Or do you have reasonable proof behind this?

Do white people generally have a better quality of life? Well, according to the national statistics on poverty, indeed they do.

However, as far as some of your examples go, I guarantee you that white people do not get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to loan applications. It is more difficult for a white person to quality than any minority. As far as white people running this country, that's true, however, there aren't any laws that state that only white people are eligible. My issue is that laws set forth by our government are discrimitory at all, be it against whites or non-whites, I still would have issues with it.

I am not trying to give the impression that I feel sorry for myself, I have an excellent job & lead a generally happy life, but I don't think that simply because I am fine with the way things are that I should have absolutely no vested interest in what happens. Why do you say that white people are better off than minorities? I beg to differ as far as your comment about white people caring only when they are discriminated against, many people of all races are both for and against discrimination, and although in America's past, many white people were bigots, that (at least from my perspective) doesn't ring true anymore. I am not saying that noone is racist anymore, but the vast majority don't seem to have issues with it.

I am not saying that people in general shouldn't be helped better their circumstances, but if our goal is equality, in my opinion, we shouldn't be helping some more than others based on the color of their skin, nor the shape of their eyes...
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