KMA-628

roach -

Here's a LINK to the "store" selling the shirt.

Anyway, it pertains to this thread in that there are very good arguments in criticism of Delay, but propaganda like this will only hurt the cause, not help it.

If the criticism can stay above board and professional, it might have an affect on more people. Once the argument denegrates to this level, it begins to become absurd and it loses its effectiveness and its audience.

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NCB

It's just another illustration as to where the left in America is at today. Look at the title; how big of a scumbag.... Now we have people printing t-shirts encouraging him to kill himself.

Funny that you dismiss my arguments so readily, but yet you're silent when it comes to ad homium (sp?) attacks and rhetoric that includes suicide.

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filtherton

I think he was pointing out that your attribution of the attitude that this shirt conveys to the entire left was baseless.

Are you aware that members of his own party are publicly asking him to step down? Are they now suddenly part of the left?

You're confused if you think that the perspective of the thread starter, though undoubtedly shared by plenty of conservatives, is a representation of the perspective of the left as a whole. You're also confused if you think that the perspective of a t-shirt company represents the perspective of the left as a whole. In short, i think that you're confused.

Redlemon

I'd just like to point out that the T-shirt company in question is CafePress, who will set up a storefront for anybody. If you have an idea, and want it on a shirt, you can have it. They aren't even printed unless someone orders one. This has as much legitimacy as a random blog post.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

boatin

Calling a scumbag a scumbag isn't ok? That has nothing to do with left or right - plenty of scumbags to go around.

If someone on the partisen left is accurate, where it the problem? If someone on the right is accurate, where is the problem?

I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting that those on the right don't use names? Or that all names are bad?

I applaud you if you choose to take the high road, and never go negative. Good for you.

NCB

Christopher Shays hardly constitutes a large portion of the GOP.

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ShaniFaye

blame her parents for that not Michael.....if not for them it wouldnt have drug on for 15 years.

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Redlemon

There was an interesting NPR Morning Edition analysis on this (4 minute real audio here).

The last sentence (at 3:52 into the broadcast) was Cokie Roberts: paraphrasing, "The most damning thing I have heard is that he received a standing ovation at the Republican Caucus last week; this last happened to Jim Wright, just before he was asked to resign." Sounds like the Mafia giving you the Kiss of Death.

I suspect Chris Shays was specifically selected by others in his party to test the public reaction to forcing his resignation.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

filtherton

I never said a large portion so what's your point? Are you going to say something about your mischaracterisation of the entire left, or are you going to pretend like you never said it?

arch13

NCB will claim one of the following should Delay be forced to step down:

A) He was forced out by the left, not his own party in any way.

B) Delay is guilty and does not represent the Republican party.

Notice how in either of these, the Rebulican party carries no responsability for a members actions?

Well they are responsible for his actions, as any organization must control and subdue their most rabid member.
Feel free to place odds on which of the above will be claimed.

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NCB

1. OK, aside form Shays and your GOP friend's cousin, who else has said he should step down?

2. How did I mischaracterize the left? Sure, there are some who would condemn the message on the shirt (though noone has here). However, the overwhelming majority of the Left believe that Delay is the devil incarnate. Do you deny that?

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NCB

NCB will actually say that Delay has done nothing out of the ordinary. NCB says that if the inside the beltway GOP gives into the NYT and the WASH Post, then they are are spineless fuckers who deserve to be thrown out of power in the mid tern elections. All politicians throw bones to supporters and family. Yeah, it sucks and I wish it didn't happen, but it does.

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filtherton

Only one has publicly asked him to step down as far as i've known, whether he's a rogue republican or not depends on where your intellectual allegiances lie. Santorum, no stranger to douchebaggery, has also publicly stated that delay needs to do something about his ongoing problems.

Yes, i do deny that. I find it laughable that you think that you have your finger on the pulse of the american left. You who seems to think everyone on the left is a communist.
I think it is completely fucking ridiculous for anyone, of either side of the aisle, to claim that they know how the entire left or the entire right feels about any particular person.

NCB

Filth also wrote:
Which is it? One member or other members? Your conservative lawn guy? And yes, it does matter who the members are and how many are calling for him to step down.

Quote from RS:

“When you have a leader of Tom DeLay's passion and Tom DeLay's effectiveness, you have a media that's very much going after him and tracking him and dogging him and trying to find what they can about him.“

There's another quote saying that if there are certain questions, Delay should come fourth and answer them. That's a whole lot different than a call to step down.

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filtherton

One member, like i said.

I never said santorum said he should step down.

Filth also wrote:
In any case, even santorum recognizes it as a problem, though he seems to be trying to blame it on the fact that the media is doing what it is supposed to be doing. He's probably just longingly eying delay's job.

Filth also wrote:
Tell me more about this left you speak of. This absolutely cohesive, absolutely consistent political juggernaut for whose every whim and prayer you claim a deep knowledge.

raveneye

Actually I kind of hope Delay hangs on for another year or so, well into the time when voters start making up their minds for the 2006 elections.

Doesn't look like it though; Republicans I think are finally catching on to the fact that his presence is not good for them.

squirrelyburt

They are all scumbags and a$$holes when they get to that level for that long. If you think any of them have not fallen prey to the kickbacks from PACs along the way..think again, they just haven't been caught

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KMA-628

I doubt it. The dem's have already been searching for republicans to come out against Delay and have gotten nowhere with their effort (i.e. NYT asking Livingston to write an op-ed calling for Delay to resign).

You seem to forget a few things.

First, very few politicians could hold up against this kind of scrutiny--a lot of them have things they don't want out. It just seems to be the luck of the draw in terms of where the focus of the day is.

Second, the forgivability of voters and their ability to put up with really shitty politicians. For example: Kennedy and the mysterious death, Daschle and his wife the lobbyist, etc.

Kennedy never lost popularity over something that should've taken him down. Daschle never really fell victim to the countless attacks on him and he barely lost his re-election bid.

The reverse is true in regards to Delay. We may like him, but we like the lib's and dem's even less--so we will do the horrible in this situation and back the "lesser of two evils". And yes, in most conservative minds, as bad as Delay is, the alternative is worse.

I highly doubt you will see any en masse effort on the part of the conservatives against Delay. We may scold him, but we aren't gonna run him out of town.

__________________
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Manx

Now just reverse every last word of that and apply it to whichever liberal is the punching bag of the week for the right. (Moore, Kerry, Sharpton, the list never ends.)

Setting up a country club golf charity event for invalid children - and then use the money to fund GOP campaigns. Class.

Ironically, about 7 years ago I was joking around with some friends after I moved into a new apt. The apt. had two decks, one of which had the ability to support a hottub. But I didn't have a hottub. So I told everyone I knew that I had started an Invalid Childrens Hottub Fund and we welcomed their contribution. I didn't get a penny. Of course, I don't have Limbaugh shilling for me either. Maybe I can sue Delay for stealing my business plan.

It's awesomely impressive how anything and everything can be equalized to facillitate dismissal.

meembo

link

for historical reference

Why spend time bailing water from a sinking ship? Conservative leadership has cruised without serious scrutiny for a long, long time. As the last line in the article suggests, DeLay will be the next Trent Lott, but the fall will be more satisfying for liberals waiting for the first shoe to fall for conservative leadership.

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raveneye

Ironically, I hope you're right.

But it probably won't be other Republicans who run him out of town, it will probably end up being the electorate, just like it was for Gingrich.

Polls are already showing he's losing support in his own district (Houston Chronicle). Evangelicals don't like it too much when politicians use their power for personal profit.

LewisCouch

The misappropriation of funds (greed) is politically endemic. Delay got caught and should step down or return the money. The very least he owes is an apology to his constituents. Maybe he could make everyone happy by sponsoring a bill forbidding payment to any family member for any reason. Would it pass the Senate? Not likely. In politics, nepotism reigns supreme. Does anyone really believe this type of "thievery" is practiced only by members of the Republican party? Does the action of one member condemn the entire party regardless of affiliation?

To answer your question, "Is there a bigger scumbag than Tom Delay?", I submit that Sandy Berger, whose offense was criminal rather than ethical, has done more damage. Berger, for those of you unfamiliar with his story, is a former National Security Advisor who pleaded guilty to absconding with and destroying highly classified documents, obstensibly detailing a former administrations failure to take the threat of al Qaeda seriously. I say ostensibly, because there is no way to know if any prelusive efforts would have been effective; which somewhat diminishes the impact of Berger's criminal effort. He qualifies as a scumbag though...

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Mobo123

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050413/D89EQ1QO0.html

This moron keeps putting both feet and hands into his mouth. Why texas voters put him in office is absolutely baffling.

He is now acknowleding the importance of an independant judiciary????? I thought he was a lawmaker and already knew that?

WASHINGTON (AP) - House Majority Leader Tom DeLay apologized Wednesday for using overheated rhetoric on the day Terri Schiavo died, but refused to say whether he supports impeachment of the judges who ruled in her case.

DeLay backtracked as White House spokesman Scott McClellan said President Bush considers the Texas Republican, who is battling ethics allegations, a friend, but suggested that the majority leader is more of a business associate than a social pal.

"I think there are different levels of friendship with anybody," McClellan said.

At a crowded news conference in his Capitol office, DeLay addressed remarks he made in the hours after the brain-damaged Florida woman died on March 31. "I said something in an inartful way and I shouldn't have said it that way and I apologize for saying it that way," DeLay told reporters.


Shortly after Schiavo's death, Delay said it represented a failure of the legal system. DeLay's statement also said, "The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior."

DeLay said at the news conference that he was eager to appear before the leaders of the House ethics committee and give "everything I have" in connection with allegations of misconduct.

That committee, meanwhile, has deadlocked on a Democratic demand for changes in the rules that Republicans pushed through the House this winter.

The committee's leaders, Reps. Doc Hastings, R-Wash., and Alan Mollohan, D-W.Va., said they had no plans to grant DeLay's request to appear before them until the committee sorts out its organizational difficulties.

DeLay seemed at pains to soften, if slightly, his rhetoric of March 31, when Schiavo died despite an extraordinary political and legal effort to save her life.

"I believe in an independent judiciary. I repeat, of course I believe in an independent judiciary," DeLay said.

At the same time, he added, the Constitution gives Congress power to oversee the courts.

"We set up the courts. We can unset the courts. We have the power of the purse," DeLay said.

Asked whether he favors impeachment for any of the judges in the Schiavo case, he did not answer directly.

Instead, he referred reporters to an earlier request he made to the House Judiciary Committee to look into "judicial activism" and Schiavo's case in particular.


(AP) House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Tex., laughs with Vice President Dick Cheney and Rep. Virginia...
Full Image


Congress enacted unusual legislation in the days before Schiavo's death in hopes of lending legal support to Schiavo's parents, who were seeking a federal court order to have their daughter's feeding tube reconnected. They were turned down at every level, including the U.S. Supreme Court, despite the measure that Bush signed quickly after it passed.

The scrutiny of his remarks came at a politically inopportune time for DeLay, compounding the controversy caused by allegations that three of his overseas trips were illegally financed.

Last week, Bush put some distance between himself and DeLay after the majority leader suggested judges should be penalized for their decisions in the Schiavo case. Bush said he believed in an independent judiciary.

Bush and DeLay have had a prickly relationship going back to Bush's assertion in 1999 that House Republicans were trying to balance the budget on the backs of the poor. When Bush pushed the House to pass a a tax benefit for low-income families with children in 2003, DeLay told reporters, "Last time I checked, he didn't have a vote," referring to the president.

McClellan was questioned about his statement on Monday that Bush considers DeLay a friend, in view of a scarcity of evidence of social ties between them.


(AP) House Majority Leader Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas, waits for the start of a joint session of Congress...
Full Image


"There are a number of congressional leaders that he (Bush) works closely with on the Hill and he considers a friend," McClellan said. "I think there are different levels of friendship with anybody."

McClellan said the question posed to him Wednesday referred to social friends. "But no, he certainly is a friend. ... The president considers him such. And we support his efforts, along with the efforts of other congressional leaders to move forward on the agenda that the American people want us to enact."

Democrats have seized on the ethics allegations. One House Republican, Rep. Christopher Shays of Connecticut, has called for DeLay to step down.

DeLay told reporters the controversy has not slowed Congress' work at all. He also served notice he no longer intends to answer questions about his personal case at his weekly news conferences.

He said he would continue to hold news conferences, "but only if everyone is here for the intended purpose" of asking about the Republican legislative agenda.

---

stevo

correction. delay apologized for how he said it, not for what he said.

Delay is no different than any other politician out there. Politicians on both sides of the isle do the exact same thing delay has done. Where's the outrage? Libs aren't angry because he had things paid for him and his family, they're angry because he's a republican. If he was a democrat you wouldn't hear a peep.

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arch13

Well I for one, stevo, am simply pissed that he would even suggest impeachment for any of the judiciary branch for their role in the Schavio case. The judiciary is not to be tampered with when a ruling is not liked, or even majority supported. Lest you forget, the judiciary is not there to allign with majority will. They are there to interprete the law. That role is reserved for them, and is not the domain of congress. Congress makes the rules, but judges decide what they mean.
To give an example that any conservative would appreciate (Conservative I said, not Republican, there is a difference).

Copyright law in the 18th and 19th century in this country protected only Cititizens copyrights, not foreign ones (foreign national citizens). Many liberals of the time where disturbed by this, and voiced loudly that copyright as directed by the founding fathers covered both groups. The court intervened, and judged that the law as written was only applicable to US citizens.
Now many liberals of the time, with economic interests in Europe, did not like this, and attempted to impeach the judiciary that acted the clarify. The discovered they had no ability to do so.
Nearly every legal scholar agrea's that without this lopsided law, the american copyright would never have developed into the economy it is today. Congress did eventually re-write the laws to cover foreign copyright holders, but the laws as they stood in the 19th century did not give that protection.

Now why is that applicable?
Because congress may not interprete that law. As above, judges are responsible for that, and may find the law to have meaning other than what lawmakers beleive was it's "intention". Therefor, they must be carefull in how they phrase any law.
Mr. Delay may not assume that what he belives is the will of the people or congress has any right to overrule a judge. That's not how the rules where written. Least of all, popular opinion of the moment has no say in the judiciary branch. It was designed not to. The interpretation of law happens in a time frame that most cannot understand, as it does not allign with any administration or popular period. A law may not be presented to the courts for interpretation for years, or it may happen in a day.
If this a problem, by all means, go argue it with Jefferson.

Delay shot his mouth off. Many politicians have come to regret doing that.
He needs a lesson in civics to remind him that he has no power in this situation, and needs to get over it, to borrow a qoute from Host.

Now is all this fair? That's your opinion

Any politician that attempts to assert control over the judiciary branch is breaching the seperation of power, and could be impeached for their action.

Im not interested in changing the rules, regardless of what either party wants at a given time. After all, the judiciary is not there to answer to public opinion on an issue. If either party wants that, they fail to live up to the value of being patriotic.

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Mobo123

Arch, you are absolutely correct. I would, however, go one step further. This may seem extreme but Soviet Russia was run by a central party with NO independant judiciary governing their actions.

Delay didnt like what the judges ruled and wants the power to reside with his party. Very scary.

It is incredible that this person, an elected representative, can even think this way.

arch13

I love this Sentance by the way:
He has no ability to dictate what is asked. Nor has he the right.
The media can ask any question they so desire. Unless of course he is thinking of censorship. He can of course choose not to call on people he knows will ask provacative questions, but he is foolhardy to think that he can dictate such things beyond that.

What if a trusted correspondent suddenly asked a provactive quaetion? Would he simply not answer it?
That would look even worse.

He's a public servant, and will be hounded by the media. If he doesn't like it, he's in the wrong job.

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blakngold4

i think delay's a sack of crap, but him refusing to answer media questions isn't censorship. it's silence. if he kept them from writing stories about him being a bag of crap for not answering questions, THAT would be censorship.

jcookc6

How about Barney Frank?

what is the difference between a ball park frank and a Barney Frank?

one you put in your mouth, the other one, you stick up your ass.

meembo

jcookc6

what an ignorant and homophobic and juvenile thing to say.

Do you have anything intelligent to add, or have you said everything you have to say?

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Seer666

Well, he is doing nothing new. How do you think the law got so fucked up to begin with? Someone would twist this law A, so somoene would make law B to clarifiy law a and keep it from being twisted, but law B flat out contradicks law C. And then there is law D which someone with a lot of money put there to give them a loop hole through laws A, B ,C E, and F. The leagal system is fucked, the people running things are fucked, and yes, there is ALWAYS a bigger scumbag. I shouldn't worry about it to much if I were you. Republics only tend to last about 300 years, historicaly, so we only got a nother 800 years tops before the whole system colapises. Won't mean A hill of beans in the long run.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Seer666

It really has nothing to do with "the left". I, despite my anarchist ramblings, am pretty much a centerline conservative, and I hope he kills himself. I kind of find that shirt pretty funny myself.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

arch13

Looks like the drum beat keeps pounding on this one.
Now I remember why the Republicans wanted to change the ethics rules. To prevent this investigation.

Delay says "Charge it"

I'll post the artical below, but it has to be pointed out that it is a violation of ethics to accept a donation from a lobbyist if that "donation" is considered to have paid for your expenses. You can be removed from office for that little action. And saying you were not aware is not considered a valid excuse. (The analogy is "I didn't know beating my wife was wrong".) Sorry, but common sense has to prevail at some point.

I look forward to this contimued inquiry, appluad it's current findings, and point to my post regarding NCB's possible response as what most Republicans are going to run around saying as the shit is slowley pushed into the spinning fan.

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raveneye

Here's a story from NPR today on this subject, indicating that there's another trip of Delay funded by Abramoff: to a premier Scottish golf course, for Delay, his wife, several associates and their spouses also, that cost $120,000. Sounds like a nice little holiday.

This is a transcript of an interview with the WAPO journalist who wrote the story linked to by arch13 above.

arch13

You have to wonder, when does Mr. Delay ever have time for the needs of his district and constituiants when he's taking trips out of the country where no one can see what he does or grandsatnding on the more contraversial issues that a fring minority supports?

I can't see him having the time to bother with the little people in ebtween all these trips

I appluade the ethics commitee on their continued investigation, and look forward to what else they are going to find. (Becuase that is of course why they exist, to look into instances where a member of the governing body breaches the common sense ethics of their job)

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pan6467

I just wonder how a true conservative GOP can support this scumbag. I can see how neo-cons who blindly follow what the party feeds them would support this guy.

This ain't no Oval Office blowjob.....lol this is a tad more serious and affects a lot more people. Delay seems to believe because his party is in power and he's a good Bush soldier this shit won't stink and he'll get off "Scot" free.

Hopefully, there are enough honest GOP to bring charges where charges need to be.

Course Delay may know too much dirt and therefore everyone will give him a pass, for fear he'll spill the Bush baked beans.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

guy44

Here's the thing: DeLay has given enormous sums of money to many, many Republican Congressmen and essentially retains the loyalty of a huge number of them. Many of them are going to go to the mat for him.

Which is great, absolutely positively wonderful, for the Democrats. The longer DeLay is around, the longer the Democrats get to point to his being around. You know that Democrats from Maine to Alaska will be running in 2006 on a platform of, "We're not Tom DeLay, and we're not crazy religious right nutballs. Vote for us!"

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guy44

Corruption loves company:

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Fourtyrulz

I think the AF1 thing has been used before by earlier presidents in order to hold a more captive audience, in this case DeLay. Bush could be inviting him onto AF1 to discuss DeLay's resignation or an emergency escape plan.

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guy44

Pop! goes a weasel:

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