Yeah, trickyy, the justice minister wants that. Unfortunately. most of the other ministers don't. Most Dutch people disagree with the idea too. Furthermore, a majority of the Dutch parliament want the law struck down, and an official vote has been scheduled.

In other words: it ain't gonna happen.

Well, it looks like there is finally reaction from the Dutch. About time.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...type=printable

http://observer.dev.gul3.gnl/magazin...364733,00.html

part one of a long article in today's guardian--last time i checked, the link to part 2 was not working..

Didn't work for me

http://www.guardian.co.uk/

try this way--it works--i dont understand why it would not work if i pasted the article directly--but there we are. it is on the front page of today's guardian (webversion), under "top picks"...the first story...the title there is:

"Can the Dutch liberal dream triumph over fear?"

sorry about that.

Here's the URL for the article - not sure where that .dev.gul3.gnl comes from or what it is...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magaz...364732,00.html

Here's Part Two (their link is broken - I think it's probably a link to their private staging server):

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magaz...364733,00.html

Update of this thread:

The self-confessed murderer of van Gogh had his first (real) day in court today. The evidence against him is overwhelming. He decided not to mount any defence whatsoever, because he says he doesn't recognize the court.

He has been charged with the murder of van Gogh and the attempted murder of various policemen. He's also been charged with attempting to disrupt the duties of a member of parliament (he planted a death threat to one of them on van Gogh's body).

All of these crimes have a maximum sentence of life in prison, and it's pretty safe to say that he'll that. And that actually *is* life in prison over here; Unless you get a royal pardon (very unlikely to happen), you're never getting out of jail.

The impression I get from the stories I hear, is that he's a really sick, fucked-up animal.
- He didn't want to come to court, but was forced to go by the judge. Today, he appeared to ignore the trial. He doesn't seem to care one bit about the family of his victim, and thinks he's doing it all for Islam. He just sits there as if it's not about him at all, even looking bored at times. At the end of the day, he walked out holding the Qu'ran into the air, to show that he/it has won.
- The prosecutor spoke about some of the evidence they found at his house, which includes cd-roms with movies featuring mutilation, murders, deadly accidents, and even <b>necrophilia</b>. Of course, there's also plenty of the regular Jihad stuff, about killing infidels.
- Although he didn't cooperate with a psychological examination, I'm pretty confident he could be labeled a psychopath. At the very least he's extremely narcissistic.

All in all, it's a chilling insight into the personality of a terrorist. Nothing more than a crazy murderer, apparently. If he had been a native (non-Muslim), he might have turned into a "normal" serial killer.

If you take a viper to your bosom and it bites you, it's not the viper's fault. It is the nature of vipers to bite, and the viper's reasons for biting you are irrelevant.

interesting. but the problem here is that the viper is an example to other snakes, who want to emulate his behavior.

In normal english: this guy is seen as a hero by a lot of angry young Muslims over here. I hope they now see how crazy he is, but I very much doubt it. To the real fanatics, all the negative evidence are lies.

well apparently he did end up making a statement
Yeah there's really no place for these beliefs in Western society. Lock him up and let him rot I say. He also made statements about how he knows paradise awaits him in the afterlife, so padded walls and suicide watch seem appropriate. Really the death penalty seems too lenient for this guy.

I very much doubt that he'd kill himself. In Islam, that's not allowed. Besides, he'll probably try to get someone else to kill him; that way, he can be a "martyr".

I think that the death penalty is indeed too lenient for him. That's why I want him locked up for life. He wanted to die, so we'll make sure he'll stay alive for a *very* long time. And judging from recent reports, he may be locked up in solitary confinement. He's been trying to recruit other prisoners to his cause, and he's been writing extremist stories. Even in jail, he's still dangerous.

i see powerclown and roachboy saying that UsTwo's "solutions" are brash and wrong etc. i myself see that how they might be seen as brash, but then this goes out to roachboy and powerclown - what are your solutions? what do you propose European governments do in response to these problems?

What'd ya get booted for Nirvana?

i got booted?

Since this post we had month long + riots in France and now the 'cartoon' jihad.

Anyone waking up yet or are we still pretending this is a Marixist struggle and not a clash of cultures?

One thing that I notice is that a lot of people say that "they should try to help them assimilate better or there has to be a better way to end all this bloodshed", yet no one is offering a better way. the problem is that you can condemn the solutions that some people are throwing out there as bad and brash or whatever, but there really isn't any alternative.

There are always alternatives, but perhaps these aren't acceptable to us modern people. We seem to be unable to deal with groups of people refusing to follow our way of life. If people misbehave and terrorize everyone else, we apparently are too civilized to put an end to it. We're always trying to understand them, to help them, but perhaps that's part of the problem? I'd say that by trying to understand and help them, we're reinforcing their idea that they're the victims?

As an example of the Dutch version of this: a couple of years ago, there were reports in the media about a group of Maroccan kids running amok in a certain area of a large city. They demanded a place to hang out (or else). What'd we do: we gave them a building to hang out in. IMO we should have send in dozens of police officers in riot gear and kicked the **** out of them...

The "we're the victim" reaction is reaching really silly levels. We've had large groups of people (Muslims) protesting because a known violent (Islamic) guy, threatening people with large knife, was shot by police. His friends and family demanded an investigation (and conviction of that police officer) because the "victim" was a good person, and hadn't done anything. They're *never* at fault, it's always the rest of us.

This seems to be the international norm with many Muslims: it's always the West, the US and/or the Jews keeping them down. It's never their own fault.

(I'm kinda frustrated about this... hence the massive generalization.)

the problem with muslim youth living in western countries is widespread i must admit. as speaking as a muslim living in a western country i can vouch for that. we've recently had the 'race riots' here in sydney between lebanese youth Vs anglo saxon youth. there needs to be a solution, but attacking them willy nilly would isolate these youths and further dislocate them from society.

so you ask, what needs to be done? im not sure..something to bring them back to mainstream i guess.. but dragonlich is right..they do blame everyone but themselves, and even i feel ashamed of that. we need to stop feeling victimised. one the other hand, any time a minor incident happens that involves middle eastern youths or islam or anything minutely related it makes the front pages, so i think some of our media outlets have to answer for some of what has been going on lately too.


for example, im nots ure if you guys are aware of the sydney race riots but it occured over a scuffle between middle eastern youths and a life guard at a beach. it eascalated after shock jocks roused people up on talk back radio which filtered to TV and in the end we had SMS messages asking for peoples heads which finally led to the riots at cronulla.

anyways enough of me for now..all im saying is we should wisen up, but so should the media.

I think that the government of Australia is indirectly responsible for the later riots by "native" Australians. People riot for a reason. I'd say the reason is the perceived inaction by the Australian judicial system. The reasoning may have been: if the police doesn't take action, we will take action instead.

I see the same pattern over here: people are getting fed up with the fact that police are unable to stop criminals. In the eyes of many, the police spend too much time collecting fines from speeding motorists, and too little time on getting the "real criminals". People feel insecure, and nobody seems to be willing to help them; this feeling is reinforced with negative experiences (groups of youths hanging around), word-of-mouth (people they know have been robbed/attacked) and the media (reports of problems elsewhere). In such a situation, eventually they'll start helping themselves...

A possible solution:
police should enforce the law, and should arrest troublemakers, regardless of their ethnicity. They should be locked up for longer periods of time if they're repeat-offenders. Young criminals should get special attention (re-education?), to prevent them from re-offending. The idea is that criminals will have much more to gain from legal actions than from illegal ones; we should help them build up a future if they choose to uphold the law, and should punish them severely if they choose to break it.

Simultatiously, we should focus on the source of the problems: after all, criminals generally aren't born evil. Everyone should have the same opportunities in life, given the same qualifications. Of course, this is easier said than done... There are so many reasons for criminal behaviour that you can't do it all overnight.

I can't speak for the media in Australia but in the US it treats muslims with kid gloves. The problem is not the media in my opinion but the fact that so many muslim youths are involved in killing innocent people all around the globe. Until the rest of the muslim population who don't condone such activities start to make a real stand against these people you can expect more unlawful reaction to it.

"There are always alternatives, but perhaps these aren't acceptable to us modern people. We seem to be unable to deal with groups of people refusing to follow our way of life. If people misbehave and terrorize everyone else, we apparently are too civilized to put an end to it. We're always trying to understand them, to help them, but perhaps that's part of the problem? I'd say that by trying to understand and help them, we're reinforcing their idea that they're the victims?

As an example of the Dutch version of this: a couple of years ago, there were reports in the media about a group of Maroccan kids running amok in a certain area of a large city. They demanded a place to hang out (or else). What'd we do: we gave them a building to hang out in. IMO we should have send in dozens of police officers in riot gear and kicked the **** out of them...

The "we're the victim" reaction is reaching really silly levels. We've had large groups of people (Muslims) protesting because a known violent (Islamic) guy, threatening people with large knife, was shot by police. His friends and family demanded an investigation (and conviction of that police officer) because the "victim" was a good person, and hadn't done anything. They're *never* at fault, it's always the rest of us.

This seems to be the international norm with many Muslims: it's always the West, the US and/or the Jews keeping them down. It's never their own fault.

(I'm kinda frustrated about this... hence the massive generalization.)"

I agree with you. in that situation with the kids demanding a place to hang out, i am just surprised that is how the community responded. because they want something and act uncivilized to get it, they should get what they demand for?

i think you're right about the whole "victimization" problem. if they see themselves as victims all the time, then is everyone else who is at fault. the media is definetely partly at fault, but it is time for them to take responsibility. i too am sick of " its the US, the jews, 'white man's society' that is at fault" mentality that so many people have.

I have spent lots of time in Holland. I married a Dutch girl and brought her to Texas. I have lots of friends and family there. I'm not sure if the Nederlanders I know represent a cross-section of Dutch society, but I do know that they don't seem to "get it," at least from my point of view. They seem to see the Muslims as victims, and believe that Muslim's have been "pushed" into being angry and violent. In other words, they seem to accept the victimization routine discussed above. Like Nirvana and others here, I see this as putting more fuel on the fire. In a way it is analogous to the 1930s when no one dared stand up to Hitler, and we all know how that ended.
My question for the Nederlanders here:
Which way does public opinion seem to be going now? Will Rotterdam have to be destroyed (for example), before people realize just how grave the situation has become?

I wonder what the parents are doing or saying when these children are running around the city causing problems. not to say the US doesnt have a problem with violent teens causing havoc, but this situation in the netherlands seems to be very arab/muslim Vs. Dutch.

i edited this post because I didn't want to create any hateful prejudices towards any group of people.

Aladdin Sane: I'd say the public opinion is slowly moving towards "the right". Especially with the cartoon row, and the reactions we see from Muslims living in Europe, people seem to feel it's gone too far. Politicians are starting to take notice, but that may have a lot to do with the upcoming (local) elections.

Nirvana: I'd say the parents aren't doing or saying anything. And it's mostly Maroccan vs Dutch. We don't have a lot of problems with Turkish kids. One of the reasons could be that a lot of the Maroccan immigrants came from a rather backwards, rural background, where kids are raised by the community. Often, the mothers don't have any power over their sons, while the father is too busy working. Hardly a situation where kids learn to distinguish right from wrong. A lot of these kids have a very twisted sense of morality, if they have any. To make matters worse, some of the parents don't really care that their kids are misbehaving, because the west is evil anyway.

Thank you Dragonlich. i was not aware you had a Turkish minority as well. we have the same problem with rowdy teens in the USA of ALL backgrounds, so I can definetely relate. it really is a shame that when people move to a different country that they can't assimilate to a certain degree. i myself am an immigrant and I didn't have to abandon my old culture or heritage in any way to become what I see myself to be a full American.i see myself as 100% percent american because while i do retain my heriatge, i eat american food, i listen to american music, I appreciate everything this country has given me and i never once view myself as an outsider, but an equal to each and every other american living in this country. replace "america" with almost any other country and i'm sure that many posters will agree. i know it is harder for many of the older generations to change something that they have been used to their entire lives because that is almost all that they know. That is no excuse for the younger generations.